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Bochy, Texas Manager

G-Fafif Oct 21 2022 11:12 AM

The Rangers have named the very successful previously at liberty Bruce Bochy manager.

Edgy MD Oct 21 2022 12:17 PM Re: Bochy, Texas Manager

I hope it's worth what it costs the Rangers in necessitating an addition to their available hat sizes. I like that this adds some insurance behind the continuity of ex-Mets in the managerial ranks. I think we were down to Alex Cora.

bmfc1 Oct 21 2022 01:13 PM Re: Bochy, Texas Manager

I hope that this doesn't mean that they are "all in" for '23 to the extent that they will do anything to get Jake but Bochy wouldn't come out of retirement for a rebuild.

batmagadanleadoff Oct 21 2022 01:35 PM Re: Bochy, Texas Manager

I hope that this doesn't mean that they are "all in" for '23 to the extent that they will do anything to get Jake but Bochy wouldn't come out of retirement for a rebuild. My guess is that the Mets won't be outbid for deGrom and that the Mets would be willing to match any other team's offer if they are outbid. If deGrom signs elsewhere, I'll be for reasons other than money. I've bought into the rumor that deGrom would rather play in a city that he finds more comfortable than NYC.

roger_that Oct 21 2022 04:05 PM Re: Bochy, Texas Manager

Do teams have to take the players' and agents' word for the other offers they've received, or can they see the other teams' offers in writing? How does it work if Cohen says, "I'll match any team's offer, Jake"?

Edgy MD Oct 21 2022 04:38 PM Re: Bochy, Texas Manager

Yeah, matching an offer is usually an act of faith. I imagine a front office can call their colleagues at the other team to try to confirm. But (a) that other team has motivation to be cagey also, and (b) that could amount to collusion, so I would guess that doesn't happen too often. A lot of gamesmanship is at play, and an agent kind of has the right to bluff.

batmagadanleadoff Oct 21 2022 07:52 PM Re: Bochy, Texas Manager

Edgy MD wrote: Yeah, matching an offer is usually an act of faith. I imagine a front office can call their colleagues at the other team to try to confirm. But (a) that other team has motivation to be cagey also, and (b) that could amount to collusion, so I would guess that doesn't happen too often. A lot of gamesmanship is at play, and an agent kind of has the right to bluff. I dunno. Agents are regulated. There's a code of ethics and state and federal statutes that apply to their conduct. It's definitely not a free for all anything goes.

Edgy MD Oct 21 2022 09:05 PM Re: Bochy, Texas Manager

Do you really think they present written offers they've gotten from other teams? Maybe, but that doesn't seem like the way its done to me.

batmagadanleadoff Oct 21 2022 09:28 PM Re: Bochy, Texas Manager

Edgy MD wrote: Do you really think they present written offers they've gotten from other teams? Maybe, but that doesn't seem like the way its done to me. I do. Why would they not? It's to their clients' advantage if that offer from some other team is higher than the offer from the team they're negotiating with. And the agent doesn't have to disclose the precise offer amount, but just that it's higher. This choice of tactic -- whether or not to disclose the precise offer amount -- would be determined on a case by case basis depending on the contract, the player involved, and the number and identity of the teams interested, etc. What happens when a team says: "Look, I want player x. I'll pay top dollar but I'm not gonna outbid the highest bidder by a lot more than I have to. So what's the top offer you received? Also, many, if not most sports agents are also lawyers. If they're lawyers, or giving out legal advice, they're also regulated by lawyers' ethical codes of conduct. In every contract negotiation, there is the legal requirement to negotiate in good faith. There's a distinction between "puffing" - e.g., "My client is better than Mike Schmidt", which is permissible even if that client is about as good as Roy Staiger was, and outright lying factually -- "The Yankees offered three years at $33M a year" when that isn't true. Eventually, all the facts will be known, and I suspect that an agent would face legal consequences for knowingly fabricating false competing offers to increase some other team's offer. Not to mention that the agent might get blacklisted by the league itself. I don't know any of this for sure, but this all sounds right to me. But to get back to the original point: Edgy MD wrote: A lot of gamesmanship is at play, and an agent kind of has the right to bluff. I don't think the agent is permitted to knowingly invent or fabricate competing offers. Nobody's being taken of advantage of. The owners are billionaires and they're brutal and ruthless. That's how they get to stay where they are in the first place. Their negotiators are extremely knowledgeable and experienced and negotiate contracts at the very highest levels. It's like playing a high stakes games of checkers -- checkers, not chess -- checkers because both sides know all the moves. Nobody's getting bluffed out.

Edgy MD Oct 22 2022 08:13 AM Re: Bochy, Texas Manager

A reason they wouldn't present written offers is that they would thereafter be expected to, and they couldn't bluff. Or puff. Of help a story get in the papers that the Rockies are looking to go big on their client and are believed to already have a significant offer on the table.

batmagadanleadoff Oct 22 2022 01:22 PM Re: Bochy, Texas Manager

Edgy MD wrote: A reason they wouldn't present written offers is that they would thereafter be expected to, and they couldn't bluff. Or puff. Of help a story get in the papers that the Rockies are looking to go big on their client and are believed to already have a significant offer on the table. I'm not getting this. Nothing prevents an agent from puffing. And I dont know what kind of bluffing you're referring to. I dont think contract negotiations are complicated. They've been done so often and for so long that the two sides probably do them by script. Only the terms change. If I was negotiating for the team, my first two questions would be "What's it gonna take to sign your client?' and "What's the largest offer you've received?' The agent could puff all he wants to on the first question but cant lie on the second. These contract talks are way more transparent than you are suggesting. The way the owners see it, MLB is theirs and the players work for them, right or wrong. It's their billions. They paid for the teams, the stadiums and the infrastructure. They're not gonna permit an environment to exist where agents can bullshit them with fake offers to leverage contract talks.

Edgy MD Oct 22 2022 07:42 PM Re: Bochy, Texas Manager

I think you get it. You just disagree with it. That's fine.

batmagadanleadoff Oct 22 2022 07:45 PM Re: Bochy, Texas Manager

Lame.

Edgy MD Oct 22 2022 07:53 PM Re: Bochy, Texas Manager

Also fine.

batmagadanleadoff Oct 22 2022 07:56 PM Re: Bochy, Texas Manager

It's lame because I told you that I don't get your point. But you choose not to explain. Maybe you've had a change of heart on your position but you'd rather not admit that. Who knows? If an agent can't fabricate fake offers to the team, then the agent's only other alternative, if asked to disclose the top offer is to not disclose that top offer. I don't know how that helps the client. If I was the team and the agent told me that (s)he would prefer not to disclose the top offer received, I'd tell the agent that I'm interested in signing their client and that they should get back to me when they have a serious offer from some other team that they're considering accepting because I might top it. What's the agent gonna do then? Spite the team by not getting back to them? That's not in the client's interest and probably constitutes actionable malpractice.

Edgy MD Oct 22 2022 08:07 PM Re: Bochy, Texas Manager

=batmagadanleadoff post_id=111800 time=1666490210 user_id=68]Maybe you've had a change of heart on your position but you'd rather not admit that. Who knows?

I know. And I think you know, but if you don't, please be assured that I haven't had a change of heart.

batmagadanleadoff Oct 22 2022 08:15 PM Re: Bochy, Texas Manager

When I wrote earlier that these negotiations are like a game of checkers, I meant that. I chose those words carefully. I think that contract negotiations have long ago, evolved to the point where the two sides get right to it because they know all the moves and counter-moves. Agent: The Giants offered 3 years for a total of $75M. Can you do four years? Team: I might be able to go four years, but I'm not sure I can do 4 years at $100M. How about four years at $85M? Agent: No. We need 4/100. Team: We weren't really planning for four years so let me get back to to you on that. But to make things clear, we're not dropping out. We're still interested.

batmagadanleadoff Oct 22 2022 10:42 PM Re: Bochy, Texas Manager

Edgy MD wrote: I think you get it. You just disagree with it. That's fine. What on Earth would I have to gain by pretending that I don't know what you're talking about? I'm opening myself up to the possibility that I'm not understanding something that is obvious and that I should understand. Which on this massively ego-driven forum where some posters wouldn't admit that they're ever wrong even if they have to stretch out a discussion for endless and endless posts, is not something I'd do for pretend.

roger_that Oct 23 2022 10:37 AM Re: Bochy, Texas Manager

Do teams have to take the players' and agents' word for the other offers they've received, or can they see the other teams' offers in writing? How does it work if Cohen says, "I'll match any team's offer, Jake"? Seems like a very difficult question to get a straight definitive answer on.

batmagadanleadoff Oct 23 2022 12:15 PM Re: Bochy, Texas Manager

=batmagadanleadoff post_id=111802 time=1666491310 user_id=68] When I wrote earlier that these negotiations are like a game of checkers, I meant that. I chose those words carefully. I think that contract negotiations have long ago, evolved to the point where the two sides get right to it because they know all the moves and counter-moves.

Choosing one's words carefully ain't what it used to be or I'm going senile. When I wrote that these negotiations are like checkers, I meant to say tic-tac-toe. I think that these free agent contract talks are like a game of tic-tac-toe between two very seasoned tic-tac-toe players. All the moves are already known and so they get right down to it.



Tic-tac-toe.

batmagadanleadoff Oct 23 2022 12:37 PM Re: Bochy, Texas Manager

Do teams have to take the players' and agents' word for the other offers they've received, or can they see the other teams' offers in writing? How does it work if Cohen says, "I'll match any team's offer, Jake"? Seems like a very difficult question to get a straight definitive answer on. Reminds me of an old post about Jack DiLauro. I think that agents can't fabricate imaginary offers. When I make that claim, I'm applying sound legal contract law principles. That kind of a lie is a material misrepresentation, and not trivial. It's a statement that can potentially impact the negotiation more powerfully than any other statement made. The misrepresentation goes right to the heart of the matter. In the real world, contract negotiators lie all of the time, even when they're not permitted to lie. Because they're usually lying under circumstances where they won't get caught. If I'm selling my house and you make an offer on the house, I might tell you that I've already received several offers that are 100 grand higher than yours even if none of that is true. I lied to you but you'll never catch me because how would you ever know about competing buyers.? And if push were to come to shove, I can always get my aunt or my best friend to say that they submitted an offer higher than yours. Negotiators lie often because they can get away with it. But the world of free agent negotiations is a tiny and insular world where everybody knows everybody. First of all, I'd assume that all negotiations that take place over the telephone are being recorded. Obviously, emails and text exchanges create their own permanent record. If an agent were to fabricate fake offers to leverage a negotiation, the owners would assert their legal rights to punish that agent for lying. They're not going to allow that environment to exist. It's not in their interests because lying like that, if permitted, would drive up salaries needlessly. They'd enforce their rights just like they've instituted luxury taxes, and an amateur draft, and limited free agency where players have to wait several years before they're eligible for free agency. All of these measures keep the owners' costs down, which increases their profits.