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Nimmo and the Mets have a deal
metirish Dec 08 2022 06:50 PM |
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G-Fafif Dec 08 2022 06:54 PM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
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ashie62 Dec 08 2022 06:55 PM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
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A Boy Named Seo Dec 08 2022 07:04 PM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
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nymr83 Dec 08 2022 07:07 PM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
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roger_that Dec 08 2022 07:11 PM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
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Johnny Lunchbucket Dec 08 2022 07:11 PM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
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The Hot Corner Dec 08 2022 07:27 PM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
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Marshmallowmilkshake Dec 08 2022 07:51 PM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
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metsmarathon Dec 08 2022 07:58 PM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
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Edgy MD Dec 08 2022 08:03 PM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
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Aye. We were looking at an outfield of Cahna, Marte, and McNeil, and that was feeling a bit jerry-rigged.
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Lefty Specialist Dec 08 2022 08:07 PM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
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Edgy MD Dec 08 2022 08:09 PM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
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Johnny Lunchbucket Dec 08 2022 08:17 PM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
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RealityChuck Dec 08 2022 11:20 PM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
I felt there were three players that were essential to sign: Diaz, Nimmo, and DeGrom.
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roger_that Dec 09 2022 01:17 AM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
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He's the kind of guy who can lose .050 points off his OBA and still help you, lose range in the OF and some arm strength and still play a decent LF, lose some speed and run the bases ok. And I don't expect that process to start for a little while. I read something interesting about these long-range-contracts today--that it's better to pay 200 million over 10 years, even though those last few years are $$$ flushed down the donnicker, than it is to pay 150 mil over five because the luxury tax will kill you. Not saying it's true but it makes some sense.
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Fman99 Dec 09 2022 04:27 AM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
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Frayed Knot Dec 09 2022 05:01 AM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
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At least it's not Eleven!
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metsmarathon Dec 09 2022 05:22 AM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
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Ceetar Dec 09 2022 07:12 AM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
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smg58 Dec 09 2022 07:45 AM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
=Fman99 post_id=114382 time=1670585239 user_id=86] |
metsmarathon Dec 09 2022 08:45 AM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
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Edgy MD Dec 09 2022 12:38 PM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
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roger_that Dec 09 2022 12:43 PM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
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batmagadanleadoff Dec 09 2022 01:02 PM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
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roger_that Dec 09 2022 03:33 PM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
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MFS62 Dec 09 2022 03:39 PM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
=roger_that post_id=114432 time=1670614994 user_id=128] |
batmagadanleadoff Dec 09 2022 04:31 PM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
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Ask a stupid, attention craving question ....
I'm not sure why you use the phrase "In other words". Your two dumb questions aren't synonymous. Which means you've asked two distinct dumb questions. Also, I'd have to be Buck to answer your first question, but not necessarily Buck to answer your second one. And again, "problem" and "one year blip" aren't mutually exclusive because it could be a one-year problem. Which theoretically, could be synoynmous with one-year blip. I guess your query for the 19th centerfielder on the Mets depth chart didn't draw enough interest to satisfy you. Are we trying too hard to impress?
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Ceetar Dec 09 2022 04:34 PM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
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scroll up? I talked about it in my post. tl:dr Maybe it's an Eric Chavez philosophy thing. He's swinging at more pitches outside the zone and it's bad for his personal numbers. He should absolutely stop it. It's a problem, precisely for the reason's Eno describes in this tweet. But if it was a conscious choice to swing more, it's not a problem so much as an "easily" fixable approach thing. Especially going into a second year where advanced scouting is going to reflect him swinging at more pitches outside of the zone. He should readjust and set a career high BB%.
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batmagadanleadoff Dec 09 2022 04:43 PM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
=roger_that post_id=114436 time=1670625191 user_id=128] |
Frayed Knot Dec 09 2022 04:50 PM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
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vtmet7 Dec 09 2022 04:50 PM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
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I think Nimmo's walk obsession has been a byproduct of Sandy Alderson's directives in the organization...and with Buck/Chavez/Eppler influence last year, Nimmo focused a little more on: "if it's a good pitch to hit, pounce on it"...Which, IMO, as long as he's not chasing bad pitches is a good thing... I'm sure that most teams around the league know that Nimmo goes up there trying to draw a walk; and pitchers with good control are probably not going to walk him... There were some interesting splits for Nimmo (some good and some not so good): From July 29 until the end of the season, Nimmo hit: .298/.398/.455/.853; From Opening Day until May 27, Nimmo hit: .293/.386/.452/.838; In between (May 31 thru July 28), Nimmo hit: .237/.311/.390/.701 (appears that he was playing hurt since he missed May 28 thru May 30, and was a pinch runner on May 31); Home: .234/.321/.366/.688; Away: .309/.406/.492/.898; First pitch (swinging or getting HBP): .358/.374/.605/.803; Batter ahead in count: .272/.492/.473/.965; Even count: .310/.323/.456/.779; Pitcher ahead in count: .232/.263/.368/.631; by the way, Nimmo had 29 hits (and 2 HBP) on the first pitch of a Plate Appearance... of those 29 hits, he had 10 XBH: 4 Home Runs; 2 Triples; 4 Doubles.... that's a pretty good percentage of his Home Runs and Triples on the season... In other words, in 12.6 % of Nimmo's Plate Appearances; Nimmo had 25% of his Home Runs and 29% of his Triples;
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Ceetar Dec 09 2022 05:04 PM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
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vtmet7 Dec 09 2022 05:08 PM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
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it will be interesting to see how those types of numbers change for left handed hitters in 2023...Don't know how many times that Nimmo was screwed by the shift, but lefties typically get screwed more than righties do...Volgelbus particularly hits into shifted outs a lot...
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Frayed Knot Dec 09 2022 06:01 PM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
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Edgy MD Dec 09 2022 08:05 PM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
=batmagadanleadoff post_id=114439 time=1670628675 user_id=68] |
Ceetar Dec 09 2022 08:23 PM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
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roger_that Dec 10 2022 06:51 AM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
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Ceetar Dec 10 2022 07:01 AM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
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roger_that Dec 10 2022 07:51 AM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
=Ceetar post_id=114471 time=1670680861 user_id=102] |
Edgy MD Dec 10 2022 08:42 AM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
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I tend to still think that his approach changed, but it's not particularly detectable within the data of a single season, because the change occurred as the season progressed.
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G-Fafif Dec 10 2022 08:56 AM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
Good headline (bottom) becomes better headline (top).
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batmagadanleadoff Dec 11 2022 09:46 AM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
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Ask a stupid, attention craving question .... |
Edgy MD Dec 11 2022 11:12 AM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
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kcmets Dec 11 2022 11:42 AM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
=batmagadanleadoff post_id=114527 time=1670777168 user_id=68]but then on top of everything else, you then take his side. And KC's, . You're the only one. What does that say, as if I dont know. |
batmagadanleadoff Dec 11 2022 01:18 PM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
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How many times does he have to threaten to put his boot up my ass whenever the hell he feels like putting his boot up my ass before you finally respond on my behalf? Six times? Ten times? Thirty? A million? Never? Yes or no? Me, I'm too tired now from the horrible horrible occurrence involving Agee's mispronunciation on BRef. Just horrible. A day that will live in infamy. Think of the children.
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batmagadanleadoff Dec 11 2022 01:19 PM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
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vtmet7 Dec 11 2022 03:07 PM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
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Marshmallowmilkshake Dec 11 2022 03:34 PM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
=vtmet7 post_id=114545 time=1670796463 user_id=80] |
vtmet7 Dec 11 2022 03:38 PM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
=Marshmallowmilkshake post_id=114547 time=1670798045 user_id=119] |
Edgy MD Dec 11 2022 03:46 PM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
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Marshmallowmilkshake Dec 11 2022 03:56 PM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
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roger_that Dec 11 2022 04:04 PM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
=Marshmallowmilkshake post_id=114550 time=1670799419 user_id=119] |
Edgy MD Dec 11 2022 04:21 PM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
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vtmet7 Dec 11 2022 04:48 PM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
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I second that...obviously, if a guy is not an elite base stealer, you might be better off with them not risking it...however, if you have someone like Jose Reyes, Lance Johnson, Mookie Wilson, Lenny Dykstra, Trea Turner, Rickie Henderson, Tim Raines, etc type of elite base stealing; it's another story... getting to first is more important than not getting to first...however, getting into scoring position is more important than getting to first base...There's gotta be a margin where speed outweighs OBP, and conversely a margin whereas OBP is more important... cherry-picking a little bit but... Reyes averaged 66 stolen bases per 162 games from 2005-2008; his "162 game average" for those seasons results in: 116 runs scored; 68 RBI; 80 K's; Nimmo in his career so far has an almost identical Slugging Percentage while having a significantly higher OBP (and more strikeouts as well); his 162 game average: 89 runs scored; 57 RBI; 141 K's; yes, Reyes played on better offensive teams than Nimmo so his teammates are going to affect things; but still Reyes had a significantly higher runs per game and significantly less strikeouts...a guy like Reyes (or Rickey) in their prime, force pitchers and defense to make mistakes which IMO helps their teammates have better hitting opportunities... A guy like Eric Young Jr doesn't get on base or hit enough XBH's for his speed to be real useful... and a guy like Jay Payton that might have good speed but sucks at stealing bases, is better off staying put (Jay stole 14 bases as a Met, while getting caught 17 times)...by the way, I didn't realize how bad Payton was in terms of stolen bases or OBP until I just looked him up
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The Hot Corner Dec 11 2022 07:05 PM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
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roger_that Dec 11 2022 07:40 PM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
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Which part? You'd almost have to agree that there is a point where your caught stealings are costing the team more runs than your stolen bases are creating. I think the conventional wisdom was that the breakeven point was about 67%, and I believe that figure has only risen in recent years. But let's say it's 67%--it certainly isn't far from that figure. So someone who steals at a 75% rate, 30/40, is breaking even with 30 attempts (where he steals 20 bases) and netting you 10 bases on his other 10 attempts. How many runs is 10 bases? You know it's not 10 runs, not even close to that. Is it 5 runs? Doubt that very much. 3? 2? Something like that. So how many wins is your 30/40 stealer getting for you, if his stealing attempts add up to 3 runs or fewer? If you'd like to disagree with my speculations here, could you start by identifying the single largest flaw in my reasoning? Do you think the breakeven point is much lower than 67%? Do you think 10 bases over the course of 162 games are much more productive than I'm making them out to be?
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Ceetar Dec 11 2022 08:00 PM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
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Ceetar Dec 11 2022 08:08 PM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
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in 2022: Stealing second with no outs, nets you 0.208 runs. Getting throwing at second with no outs nets you -0.611 So if you steal successfully 3 times but get thrown out the fourth, you'll have earned .624 and cost .611. So you're up 0.013. So if you steal 231 bases at a 75% clip, you'll have earned your team one extra run.
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batmagadanleadoff Dec 12 2022 05:57 AM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
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Bill James has been researching the value of stolen bases at least since you were in elementary school, if not earlier. Tom Tango and then like a zillion others. The break even point is in the neighborhood of a 75% success rate and the math you'd need to calculate this yourself is fairly simple and straightforward. You just need to assemble the data so that you can then calculate break even. Or just trust James and Tango and like every other reputable sabrmetrician. They're not defending their break even figures the way others claim there's an invisible magician in the sky who runs the world. This is just math and logic.. There's no mystery here, not by any stretch of the imagination. Break even might change radically in 2023 as the bases will be larger and pickoff attempts will be severely limited. Its gonna be easier to steal a base next season.
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metsmarathon Dec 12 2022 07:23 AM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
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Edgy MD Dec 12 2022 07:34 AM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
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metsmarathon Dec 12 2022 07:48 AM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
per a cursory google search:
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Edgy MD Dec 12 2022 07:55 AM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
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batmagadanleadoff Dec 12 2022 03:55 PM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
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Wouldn't these other effects already be baked into the formula, to a large degree? If these "secondary" effects impact run scoring, they would change the break-even number for base-stealing, which is a function of run scoring.
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nymr83 Dec 12 2022 06:47 PM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
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Why would larger bases change the break even rate? they would likely change the success rate for many players, thus changing the number who should attempt to steal more often as they are more likely to hit that break even rate, but why would the break even rate change?
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Ceetar Dec 12 2022 07:08 PM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
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metsmarathon Dec 13 2022 07:58 AM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
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the secondary effects can absolutely be measured, it's just that, to my knowledge, WE don't have ready access to that dataset. they're not currently in the formula, because it looks at the entire population of base/out situations, not the quality of the runner or the expected outcome. you would need to at minimum parse it out to the effect having a likely basestealer on first vs an unlinkely basestealer, and look at the change in the outcomes. there's a lot of small sample size things, and apples & orangutans comparisons that would come out, where with a narrower dataset you're probably going to need to normalize for the quality of hitter - presuming a better hitter could be more likely to follow a good basestealer and a less-good hitter may likely follow a worse basestealer. but given enough data, i'm sure it could be done. give me a well-paying job, and maybe some python lessons, and i'll get right on it LOL. but i do believe the secondary effects would change the break-even number. i don't think it's a wholesale change, but maybe a few percentage points of success rate, and maybe that's enough to encourage the entire volume of basestealing to rise, if the data were to bear it out. also, it may be true that if mlb continues to deaden balls, the cost of an unsuccessful stolen base goes down. i think too that perhaps as k-rates increase, maybe advancing that extra base could become more valuable (?). math must be done! to the calculators, baseball nerds!
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A Boy Named Seo Dec 13 2022 01:00 PM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
Changing topic slightly, Sherman said
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Ceetar Dec 13 2022 02:02 PM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
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batmagadanleadoff Dec 13 2022 06:43 PM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
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The rules changes will likely change both figures -- the break-even point and the success rate. The two figures are independent of each other. All things being equal, base stealing will be easier in 2023. But this doesn't necessarily mean that the success rate will go up. because "all things being equal" is the operative phrase and all things might not be equal. The rules changes might also encourage lesser skilled base stealers to make more SB attempts, which could offset the improved rates that one would expect to be generated by the better base stealers. We'll see.
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nymr83 Dec 14 2022 05:45 AM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
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Maybe we are talking about different things here? When I say "success rate" i mean the percentage of stolen base attempts that are successful. So if a player attempt 5 steals, steals 4 bases, and is aught once, his success rate is 80%. I agree that this number should go up under the new rules. When I say "break even rate" I mean the rate at which a player must be successful for his stolen base attempts to be a net positive impact rather than a net negative impact on his team';s run scoring probability. Why would this change in the rules change that number?
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batmagadanleadoff Dec 14 2022 07:47 AM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
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We're talking about the exact same things. Break-even changes every year, albeit very slightly usually. Otherwise, by your logic, break-even would be a constant, a fixed number. Generally, break-even rises when run scoring is more plentiful. The easier it is to score runs, the more costly a failed stolen base attempt is. BTW there are different break even rates for stolen bases in the same season. So for example, in the bottom of the ninth inning in a tied game, when the home team needs to score just one run to seal a victory, the break-even rate is lower. Under other circumstances, the break even rate would be higher because a failed stolen base attempt could potentially cost that team more than one run. But in that ninth inning situation, those extra runs are moot.
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Edgy MD Dec 14 2022 09:20 AM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
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metsmarathon Dec 14 2022 09:44 AM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
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batmagadanleadoff Dec 14 2022 09:55 AM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
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Yeah. I didnt get that either. Runs scored and wins correlate positively and very powerfully. The circumstances in which runs are scored are irrelevant to this.
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Edgy MD Dec 14 2022 09:56 AM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
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batmagadanleadoff Dec 15 2022 12:02 AM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
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The break even rate for base stealing is a direct function of run expectancy. And run expectancy has nothing to do with whether a team is up by a dozen runs or down by one.
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Edgy MD Dec 15 2022 07:36 AM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
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metsmarathon Dec 15 2022 08:35 AM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
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Edgy MD Dec 15 2022 10:01 AM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
I'm not actually offering a thesis, but expressing dubiousness toward one.
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batmagadanleadoff Dec 15 2022 10:37 AM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
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Break-even rates are averages. Of course, a player should always consider the context when attempting a steal. And the catcher. Mike Piazza wasn't a bad defensive catcher but he couldn't throw his mother out on a stolen base attempt. And a base-runner twice as fast as Terrance Long should attempt a steal every single time he's on first base and second base is unoccupied. Also, any runner on first base should always attempt a steal of second base if the pitcher has a heart attack on the field and drops to the ground in cardiac arrest, so long as time-out isn't called. But none of this should impact the break-even rate. A runner caught stealing hurts his team just the same whether the pitcher on the mound had a heart attack or not. As mentioned, there are separate break-even rates for when a team needs only one run to win a tie game. And it's understood that break-even should drop in the later innings of close games. Stolen bases are more valuable the closer the game is. That's because failed attempts tend to wreck a team's chances of having a big inning and very often, the winning team will score more runs in one inning than the losing team will score in nine innings. But you can say this for every stat. A player doesn't get an extra boost to his BA or SLG or OPS or OBP just because his HR was a decisive come from behind walk-off HR. In the stats, that HR registers the same as a HR hit at the tail end of a blow-out win. Break-even rates are based on run expectancy tables. And that, to some degree, is a limit. But no stat is perfect. A stat only measures what it measures A player's HR totals don't reflect how many doubles he hit.
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Edgy MD Dec 15 2022 11:01 AM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
=batmagadanleadoff post_id=114880 time=1671125853 user_id=68]But you can say this for every stat. A player doesn't get an extra boost to his BA or SLG or OPS or OBP just because his HR was a decisive come from behind walk-off HR. In the stats, that HR registers the same as a HR hit at the tail end of a blow-out win. |
Edgy MD Dec 15 2022 07:40 PM Are you ready for the storm? |
Are you ready for the storm?
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metirish Mar 17 2023 07:18 AM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
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A Boy Named Seo Mar 17 2023 09:42 AM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
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Edgy MD Mar 17 2023 12:41 PM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
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metsmarathon Mar 17 2023 01:25 PM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
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metirish Mar 17 2023 06:01 PM Re: Nimmo and the Mets have a deal |
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