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IGT - Mets @ Phillies - Wagner sucks

metirish May 08 2006 12:45 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on May 08 2006 03:53 PM

Wanted to get this up early.....Wagner adds some drama to the series.. ] Wagner rips into former Phillies' teammates PHILADELPHIA (AP) - Billy Wagner has come out firing more than fastballs at his former team. Wagner closes for the Mets now instead of Philadelphia, but the opinionated lefty has thrown some gas on the rivalry between the two best teams in the NL East. Wagner told The Philadelphia Inquirer for Sunday's editions that he was not well-liked in the Phillies clubhouse, his former teammates were waiting to see him fail and left fielder Pat Burrell called him a "rat" during a midseason team meeting last year. The division-leading Mets open a three-game series Tuesday at second-place Philadelphia. The Phillies wrapped a three-game series Sunday with San Francisco and the Barry Bonds circus. "Now it goes from Bonds to Wagner," Phillies starter Brett Myers said in mock indignation. Forget the heckling Bonds received. The Phillies fans will surely stuff the fence over the visitor's bullpen where Wagner will sit within earshot of the nonstop abuse. "Bring on Billy Boy," Phillies manager Charlie Manuel said, laughing. Wagner saved 59 games in two seasons with the Phillies before signing a free-agent deal with New York, but sometimes made as much noise with his mouth as he did with his 100 mph fastball. Last July, Wagner said the Phillies "ain't got a chance" of making the playoffs and criticized his teammates for not having enough intensity, saying they quit when they got behind. That led to a team meeting where Wagner told the Inquirer he felt it was "24 against one," and added that Burrell called him a "rat" during the meeting. Also, Wagner said he didn't believe the Phillies supported him and felt that he deserved to fail, especially in a late-season loss to Houston where he gave up a ninth-inning, three-run homer to Craig Biggio in an 8-6 loss. The Phillies finished just one game behind National League wild-card winner Houston. "That wasn't a good comment," Phillies pitcher Cory Lidle said before Sunday's game. "I don't know what was going on in his mind when he said that. That wasn't the case. We needed him to pitch well down the stretch if we wanted to make the playoffs." Lidle said Wagner's description of the team meeting was "completely false" and he never heard anyone call the reliever a rat. Manuel understood why the Phillies would be upset with the comments because he took them to the media. "A lot of that should have stayed in the locker room among the players," Manuel said. Manuel, though, believed the quotes would add to the hype of the important early series. So does Manuel think Wagner would be booed now that the former fan favorite is on the other side? "There may be a good chance," he said, smiling.

sharpie May 08 2006 12:48 PM

Was already posted as "Phuel for Phillies Fire" down below

Johnny Dickshot May 08 2006 12:49 PM

Gotta say it -- I'm not a big fan of Wagner myself.

metirish May 08 2006 12:50 PM

]Was already posted as "Phuel for Phillies Fire" down below Damn, didn't see that, sorry..

Frayed Knot May 08 2006 02:48 PM

Wagner's never been one for keeping his mouth shut all that much. He used to raise a few hackles when he was with Houston; speaking out about what mgmt should do, or about what they just did wrong, etc. Stuff like that is usually tolerated to the degree of the player's save pct.

Rockin' Doc May 08 2006 03:29 PM

JD - "Gotta say it -- I'm not a big fan of Wagner myself." That's because you're blinded by your man crush for Duaner Sanchez.

Rockin' Doc May 08 2006 03:31 PM

Wagner's a good closer with some nasty stuff. I do wish he would keep his mouth shut rather than rile up the opposition with inflammatory remarks.

Johnny Dickshot May 08 2006 03:33 PM

No, really. I think we paid him too much money, for too long, and heaved a ton of unrealistic expectations on top of him to boot. It's as if we were paying him for his brand rather than his results because, though very good, they're hardly bulletproof. I've ruined more jockeyshorts watching him than any Met pitcher this year.

Rockin' Doc May 08 2006 03:44 PM

I understand your reservations. He has certainly proven that none of the closers are perfect. He has definitely demonstrated a propensity to make games far more exciting than they should be, or at least more exciting than we would like. Personally, I'm just thankful that he's not Braden Looper.

Yancy Street Gang May 08 2006 03:48 PM

I'm not crazy about Wagner either, but to be fair I can't remember a Mets closer that didn't make me squirm more often than I liked. Looper, Benitez, Franco, Orosco. Maybe I had full confidence in Skip Lockwood or Tug McGraw, but that's so far back I can barely remember my feelings when they were on the mound.

Frayed Knot May 08 2006 03:52 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on May 08 2006 03:54 PM

(the creator of this thread should probably change the subject heading by this point) The problem, of course, is that vast quantities of Met fans (aided and abetted by vast quantities of media types) so convinced themselves that no closer in history could possibly be as bad as Armando Benitez that a new one - especially one with as good a resume as Wagner - would give us oodles of stress-free 9th innings almost as a matter of course. What they fail to realize is that big Armando and little Billy have been virtual statistical twins during their common times as closers and that the notion they concocted in their heads that, while Armando's WHiP/ERA/Sv pct, etc. were perfectly acceptable, his slips from perfection inconviently all occured at inopportune times; as if there exists an opportune time for a pitcher who, by definition, works almost exclusively in tight 9th inning games to surrender runs, baserunners, etc. But we all know that the grass is always greener on the other side and so Wags will continue to get a pass for a time beyond when others would have been skewered for the same "crimes". I've gotten a kick out of hearing fans say - as early as the first week of the season - that Wagner is the best closer the Mets have ever had. Oh really? The problem with the contract is that closer types tend to be less consistant and long-lasting than starters, making his contract more of a risk than say Glavine's was back when. So just hold your hats and hope that he's a reasonable semblence of what he's been over the last few years for as many of the next few as possible. He'll likely continue to say dumb things now and then regardless and I expect it to be tolerated to the extent of his performance.

Rockin' Doc May 08 2006 03:52 PM

To a great degree, I think the discomfort and our squiring just comes with the job.

metirish May 08 2006 03:56 PM

If I hear Bill Madden form the Daily News say one more time that this just proves Wagner is no Rivera I will jump through the telly and rip his head apart......I can see it now, Mets up a run with Met killer(or used to be) Burrell at the plate and the Phillie fans letting loose on Wagner, nice move Billy.

Rotblatt May 08 2006 03:58 PM

Rockin' Doc wrote: To a great degree, I think the discomfort and our squiring just comes with the job. I agree. I'm with JD, though, on the belief that we payed him too much for too long.

Gwreck May 08 2006 04:01 PM

Johnny Dickshot wrote: Gotta say it -- I'm not a big fan of Wagner myself. I think I'd be a lot more tolerant of this sort of stunt if he was not blowing as many saves. Yeah, I know it's early. But he makes a lot money, etc. [insert the points made by others here].

Edgy DC May 08 2006 04:18 PM

Here's my 19th advocacy for teams (particularly my team) to have no shyness about allowing two (or more) relievers of a similar level of ability to divide up the closer responsiblities. Choose your ninth-inning pitcher based on the best guy available, sure, but when that's close (as it often is), take into account things like freshness and matchups. Look at these two guys: Name BAA OBPA SLGA OPSA Sanchez .121 .213 .136 .349 Wagner .190 .301 .333 .634 There's one good and one dazzling pitcher so far Name BAA OBPA SLGA OPSA Sanchez vs. RHB .105 .190 .105 .295 Wagner vs. LHB .077 .143 .308 .451 That, on the other hand, is one shocking beast. use them in tandem. One guy falters a little and maybe the other guy's role grows a little. That strukes me as a little more sustainable than hoping Sanchez can stay perfect forever. Competition has to remain open. How long can a Sanchez or Roberto Hernandez outperform a Wagner or Looper, while being told that he can't have a bigger role because the other guy was signed to be a closer but hasn't shot himself in the foot. Don't wait for the closer to fail consistently before giving away his job. Share it out like fishes and loaves.

Yancy Street Gang May 08 2006 04:24 PM

I agree! I remember when Danny Frisella and Tug McGraw shared the closer role. Lefties coming up? McGraw! Righties? Frisella! Same with McDowell and Orosco. Sanchez and Wagner would be a perfect lefty/righty combo. (And really, the Mets could have done the same with Franco and Benitez for a few years there.)

Edgy DC May 08 2006 04:31 PM

Yup, yup, dixie cup.

Zvon May 08 2006 11:55 PM

Edgy DC wrote: Share it out like fishes and loaves. I like the sentiment............. I remember the days of Tug and Danny myself. And Tug and afew other pitchers along the way. Itll never happen as long as Wagners on the team. For reasons Im sure Bret will eventually bring up.

Edgy DC May 09 2006 12:02 AM

]If I hear Bill Madden form the Daily News say one more time that this just proves Wagner is no Rivera I will jump through the telly and rip his head apart...... Trust me from experience. This doesn't work. This series has me biting my nails already.

TheOldMole May 09 2006 02:55 PM

19 ITG notes already? I started to wonder if it was an afternoon game and no one had told me.

Yancy Street Gang May 09 2006 02:59 PM

This thread does have a misleading title.

soupcan May 09 2006 03:29 PM

metirish wrote: ... I will jump through the telly and rip his head apart.. Someone tell irish we call it a 'TV' in the States. No worries from me about this series. -I think we've got a real solid team. -Pedro in game1, Glavine in Game 2, Trachsel's gonna get on track sooner or later who's to say it's not now? -WE are the team with one of the best records in the majors. THEY are chasing US. -I like playing a good team that's playing well. It shows how good my team is and makes for an exciting game. C'mon people! LET'S GO METS!

Yancy Street Gang May 09 2006 03:33 PM

Opposing Trachsel on Thursday will be their Floyd, who's been more off track than our Trax, and perhaps as much off track as our Floyd. Two out of three would be very nice. It would knock that magic number down by four pegs.

Zvon May 09 2006 04:30 PM

soupcan wrote: No worries from me about this series. -I think we've got a real solid team. -Pedro in game1, Glavine in Game 2, Trachsel's gonna get on track sooner or later who's to say it's not now? -WE are the team with one of the best records in the majors. THEY are chasing US. -I like playing a good team that's playing well. It shows how good my team is and makes for an exciting game. C'mon people! LET'S GO METS! I agree. We have the rotation set up just right and the Phils have been over achieving. The Mets are up for it. If it becomes a homer fest cuzza the small park I think the Mets can outslug em. I dont want to overlook this series, but Im actually more worried about the Brew-crew coming up next. Our pitching woes will come round again. I just hope the Mets dont take the Brewers for granted. They have a good team. But first, lets knock the Phils down like a cheap set a bowling pins. (lol, I like the magic number comment Yancy-What exactly is thier magic number at this point?)

Willets Point May 09 2006 04:30 PM

soupcan wrote: ="metirish"]... I will jump through the telly and rip his head apart.. Someone tell irish we call it a 'TV' in the States. No it's charming for him to use his own lingo.

Yancy Street Gang May 09 2006 04:33 PM

Zvon wrote: (lol, I like the magic number comment Yancy-What exactly is thier magic number at this point?) Standings 2006 thread

soupcan May 09 2006 04:39 PM

Willets Point wrote: ="soupcan"] ="metirish"]... I will jump through the telly and rip his head apart.. Someone tell irish we call it a 'TV' in the States. No it's charming for him to use his own lingo. We do that and the next thing you know he'll be singing The Star Spangled Banner in Gaelic!

Elster88 May 09 2006 04:39 PM

Will it be 122 after Thursday's game??? Time will tell.

metirish May 09 2006 04:41 PM

]We do that and the next thing you know he'll be singing The Star Spangled Banner in Gaelic! After the stir the Spanish version caused last week I think a Gaelic version would be a cool idea.

Gwreck May 09 2006 05:58 PM

Mets Reyes SS LoDuca C Beltran CF Delgado 1B Wright 3B Floyd LF Nady RF Matsui C Pedro P Phillies Jimmy Rollins SS Chase Utley 2B Bobby Abreu RF Pat Burrell LF Ryan Howard 1B Aaron Rowand CF David Bell 3B Carlos Ruiz C Brett Myers P

Edgy DC May 09 2006 06:03 PM

Strap that gear on, Kaz.

Gwreck May 09 2006 06:04 PM

Oh geez. It's not a good typing day for me.

metirish May 09 2006 06:06 PM

WOW I guess Omar really is shopping Kaz.

metirish May 09 2006 06:09 PM

One interesting thing about this series is the way the bullpens are located, the fans will be right on top of the Mets pen....Billy might need ear plugs.

Zvon May 09 2006 07:12 PM

Yancy Street Gang wrote: ="Zvon"](lol, I like the magic number comment Yancy-What exactly is thier magic number at this point?) Standings 2006 thread excellent.

metirish May 09 2006 07:13 PM

Podro KO's Rollins, sounds like there are lots of mets fans at the game.

Zvon May 09 2006 07:24 PM

Pedro sets that ump right after the Utley walk and starts getting the calls. K's Howard. I love it.

Zvon May 09 2006 07:25 PM

Kinda late to post this, but I found it interesting:

Zvon May 09 2006 07:34 PM

OHHH.Nady almost makes a fantastic catch. But he cant haul it in....... triple for Rowland.

Zvon May 09 2006 07:35 PM

Bell follows with a double, and the Phils have a 1-0 lead.

Zvon May 09 2006 07:38 PM

Ruiz follows with his 1st major league hit, a single. Bell dont score..... Ruiz is moved to second on a sac. 2nd & 3rd,1 out. Rollins at the plate.

seawolf17 May 09 2006 07:40 PM

BOOOOOOO Phillies.

Zvon May 09 2006 07:42 PM

Damn! Rollins singles and drives in 2. Not a good start. Looks like Im the only fan in the house here, so Ill just watch the game. Rollins steals second. Hope the Mets brought their bats.

TransMonk May 09 2006 07:46 PM

Time for the offense to step up and pick up Pedro. How many times has he saved them the past season? Let's get the bats going!

Zvon May 09 2006 07:52 PM

Matsui leads off with a single- Mets catch a break as Myers cant field Pedros push bunt and it goes for a single. Now lets plate some runs here guys.

Zvon May 09 2006 07:57 PM

Reyes wrists a nice bloop to left. Burrell cant catch it but he gets Martinez for the force at second. NO WAY WAS REYES OUT THERE! He gets picked off on the following play but HE WAS SAFE AT 2ND! By alot! Damn! bad break--horrible call.

TransMonk May 09 2006 07:58 PM

Phillie's TV didn't even show the replay...that's when I knew he was safe.

duan May 09 2006 07:59 PM

he was DEFINITELY safe.

Rotblatt May 09 2006 07:59 PM

Definitely safe. This game sucks.

Zvon May 09 2006 07:59 PM

TransMonk wrote: Phillie's TV didn't even show the replay...that's when I knew he was safe. Yea, Im watchin that too. And it looks like they arent going to after the break either. Thats bullshit.

seawolf17 May 09 2006 08:00 PM

Ah, COME ON, Blue! Why are the umpires all drinking the same Suck Juice?

Zvon May 09 2006 08:02 PM

Zvon wrote: ="TransMonk"]Phillie's TV didn't even show the replay...that's when I knew he was safe. Yea, Im watchin that too. And it looks like they arent going to after the break either. Thats bullshit. whoops-they finally showed 2 views. Harry says " he appeared to be all over the bag." Ha. Id say so harry.

cooby May 09 2006 08:03 PM

Zvon wrote: ="TransMonk"]Phillie's TV didn't even show the replay...that's when I knew he was safe. Yea, Im watchin that too. And it looks like they arent going to after the break either. Thats bullshit. Me three.

Nymr83 May 09 2006 08:03 PM

reyes should not get picked off there, you're down by multiple runs with 1st and 3rd, just stand there and let the big bats do some damage

metirish May 09 2006 08:03 PM

The good news is that Pedro looks better, Chris Cotter is full of shit, fire him now.

metirish May 09 2006 08:04 PM

The good news is that Pedro looks better, Chris Cotter is full of shit, fire him now.

Zvon May 09 2006 08:07 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on May 09 2006 08:49 PM

="cooby"] Me three.

metirish May 09 2006 08:34 PM

Myers is dealing tonight, or is the Mets offence just horrible tonight?

GYC May 09 2006 08:38 PM

Great play by Matsui - now Bret can open his eyes again and bitch about his defense.

Zvon May 09 2006 08:47 PM

Suddenly having problems loading this page. Game pics are coming in- Heres the effort by Nady earlier. Looks tuff, but he really should have hauled this one in.

Zvon May 09 2006 08:53 PM

Brett Myers looks great, and the Mets are helping him along with some of the pitches they are swinging at. Mets only have 3 hits, and one of em was that push bunt by Pedro. Martinez is up to 93 pitches into the 7th. He has K'd 9.

TransMonk May 09 2006 08:54 PM

This offense is lifeless. They should be able to pick up 3 runs, much less one or two over 5 innings. Myers is okay, but certainly not an elite pitcher.

Zvon May 09 2006 08:57 PM

TransMonk wrote: This offense is lifeless. They should be able to pick up 3 runs, much less one or two over 5 innings. Myers is okay, but certainly not an elite pitcher. he's lookin pretty elite tonight. I agree tho,...the Mets look flat and they should easiley be able to put together 3 runs against any Phil pitcher. But times runnin out. Pedro up to 10 Ks. At least theres that.

metirish May 09 2006 08:57 PM

Pedro has his 106th double digit SO game, 3rd best ever, no idea who is above him on that list, anyone here know?

Zvon May 09 2006 08:59 PM

metirish wrote: Pedro has his 106th double digit SO game, 3rd best ever, no idea who is above him on that list, anyone here know? Id guess Nolan Ryan and Randy Johnson, but thats just a guess.

metirish May 09 2006 09:00 PM

Nady goes deep, Pedro will surely stay in the game now...

Zvon May 09 2006 09:00 PM

NADY follows Cliffs single with a much needed KABOOM!

TransMonk May 09 2006 09:00 PM

Nady - picking it up...good job X.

Gwreck May 09 2006 09:00 PM

That should get us a little closer.

ScarletKnight41 May 09 2006 09:00 PM

X-Man Says Ka-Boom!

Zvon May 09 2006 09:01 PM

metirish wrote: Nady goes deep, Pedro will surely stay in the game now... nah, he's done for the day.

Gwreck May 09 2006 09:01 PM

metirish wrote: Nady goes deep, Pedro will surely stay in the game now... Only if Matsui gets on and he can bunt him over. Pedro at 102 pitches.

Zvon May 09 2006 09:01 PM

And lets knock Myers outta the box-- come on KAZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Zvon May 09 2006 09:04 PM

Myers makes Valentine look like a blind man. Crap-Bretts snappin off that curve ball on a full count....sheeeeeeeee-it.

Zvon May 09 2006 09:10 PM

Sanchez on for the Mets. Id really be bummed if they snap his streak. I can take a loss but not both. (at the hands of the Phils)

Zvon May 09 2006 09:14 PM

OMG... im speechless.

Zvon May 09 2006 09:23 PM

metirish May 09 2006 09:23 PM

FUck yeah....Delgado hits a two run bomb....

Nymr83 May 09 2006 09:23 PM

KA---FUCKIN--BOOM YOU PHILLY BASTARDS!!!!

ScarletKnight41 May 09 2006 09:23 PM

Delgado gets a BIG Ka-Boom! of his own!

Gwreck May 09 2006 09:24 PM

DELGADO!!!

TransMonk May 09 2006 09:24 PM

Thanks Carlos! KABOOM! No, the other one.

Zvon May 09 2006 09:24 PM

Im still speechless though

metirish May 09 2006 09:25 PM

In the Bronx the MFY's are getting hammered...13 to 3....

ScarletKnight41 May 09 2006 09:26 PM

Wright moves to second on a wild pitch.

TransMonk May 09 2006 09:27 PM

MLB.TV has the Phillies TV picture and the Phillies Radio for audio. These announcers are morons...I don't think I can take much more of these homers. The Phillies are slowly replacing the Braves as my most hated team.

Zvon May 09 2006 09:28 PM

whew--okay. I can talk now. Cuz I take great satisfaction on getting to Gordon.

Zvon May 09 2006 09:30 PM

Nice play by Bell at third. very nice. 2nd and 3rd for Matsui. Old man river on deck.

Zvon May 09 2006 09:34 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on May 09 2006 09:42 PM

BULLSHIT! that pitch was high!!!!!!

Nymr83 May 09 2006 09:36 PM

lmao Franco got tossed out of the game!

Gwreck May 09 2006 09:37 PM

Nymr83 wrote: lmao Franco got tossed out of the game! Not very funny given that he's a useful pinch hitter.

GYC May 09 2006 09:37 PM

Oldest player to get ejected?

Nymr83 May 09 2006 09:38 PM

i can laugh about it after tying up a game i thought was over

GYC May 09 2006 09:39 PM

Nymr83 wrote: i can laugh about it after tying up a game i thought was over It's like a high. If I tripped and fell down the stairs, I'd probably start laughing right now.

Nymr83 May 09 2006 09:40 PM

uhoh, 2-out triple.. well, Heilman can pick his poison now

Nymr83 May 09 2006 09:41 PM

FUCK rollins got HBP in an 0-2 hole.

Gwreck May 09 2006 09:42 PM

Oh, I don't like this very much.

metirish May 09 2006 09:43 PM

It would suck donkey balls to lose this game after Delgado got it back for us....

Nymr83 May 09 2006 09:44 PM

it's 3-1 to utley,. i hate to say it but i'd walk him in this situation rather than throw a meatball

Zvon May 09 2006 09:44 PM

im speechless again. And a lil premature with the Sandman graphic

ScarletKnight41 May 09 2006 09:44 PM

The bases are loaded for Abreu.

Nymr83 May 09 2006 09:44 PM

Abreu will bat with the bases loaded and 2 outs...

Gwreck May 09 2006 09:45 PM

I'm having bad flashbacks to the last time I was at Citizens Bank Park. It was Franco on the mound though, not Heilman.

Zvon May 09 2006 09:46 PM

just dont walk the winning run home AAron----just dont.

Nymr83 May 09 2006 09:46 PM

this does have a Franco-feeling to it.

Nymr83 May 09 2006 09:47 PM

FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK FUUUUUUUUUCK FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK a little fuckin grounder wins it

Zvon May 09 2006 09:47 PM

dagnabbitt. gets Abreu to dribble one and throws it away.

metirish May 09 2006 09:47 PM

That was LoDuca's ball...fuck

Johnny Dickshot May 09 2006 09:48 PM

Fuckshit.

TransMonk May 09 2006 09:49 PM

Now we know how Washington felt. This was my least favorite game of the season so far.

Zvon May 09 2006 09:50 PM

metirish wrote: That was LoDuca's ball...fuck I agree. You gotta love Harry Calas though..... "...and Aaron Heilman will absorb the loss here...." absorb...no one else would use that word. I cant decide if this was a mess or a great ballgame.

GYC May 09 2006 09:52 PM

And that's why you're in the bullpen, you ass.

Edgy DC May 09 2006 09:55 PM

That doesn't make any sense.

GYC May 09 2006 09:56 PM

Edgy DC wrote: That doesn't make any sense. He tends to make a lot of stupid plays, IMO. Edit: At least, before the 2nd half of last year.

Edgy DC May 09 2006 10:02 PM

Assuming that's right, and accepting for the moment that that play was stupid, you deal with a shaky fielding pitcher by consigning him to late innings of close games?

KC May 09 2006 10:06 PM

I thought it was a pretty entertaining game -- this is going to be a fun division if everyone can remain tight and in it. Nice jack by Delgado. I need more bang- pow in my Mets life. Keith, please drop the "clutch" stuff down a bit.

metirish May 09 2006 11:06 PM

Pedro on the post-game talking about how his team is one tough club, thinks this team will win a lot of games, gives lots of credit to Philly for a great game, Pedro is a great interview, LoDuca thought he had the better chance at the throw but concedes that it was a tough play either way.

Johnny Dickshot May 09 2006 11:11 PM

If I'm LoDuca, I feel worse about not gathering in that relay allowing the 8th inning run than that last play. Sure it's a tough bang bang play, but that's one of the few times a game could hang on one. I'll second that comment above made no sense.

metirish May 09 2006 11:14 PM

That was a tough play Dickshot, sure I thought he should have had the relay but hard to fault him on that, Piazza IIRC was great on such plays.

Frayed Knot May 09 2006 11:14 PM

]Keith, please drop the "clutch" stuff down a bit. Yes, absolutely. And the worst part is that they're getting these "clutch" stats off of stat sheets telling them that Joe Blow is hitting .429 w/RiSP or some such ultra-selective category and then the screen flashes up that it's all based on 4-for-7 Lots of little culprits tonight: - One Philly triple was catchable and the other certainly shouldn't have been as lonely in the corner as it was. X-Man doesn't seem to get good jumps on balls. - Reyes's baserunning gaffe was the biggest. Not only was a steal there not all that important but to get caught on the fake-to-3rd play is inexcusable. Not his first time for that play IIRC. - Heilman's throw obviously; he should have let LoDuca take that. Hitting Rollins (and almost Abreu) with a 2-strike count wasn't too cool either. - LoDuca's desperation/swipe tag when it wasn't necessary. If he holds on to that throw and simply turns toward the runner with it they've got him cooked. Nice almost comeback though.

cooby May 09 2006 11:15 PM

I was just glad he didn't break his arm edit: Loduca

metirish May 09 2006 11:17 PM

]I'll second that comment above made no sense. Do you mean my post?

Johnny Dickshot May 09 2006 11:32 PM

No, GYC's contention that poor fielders should be closers, or whatever.

Edgy DC May 09 2006 11:35 PM

]If I'm LoDuca, I feel worse about not gathering in that relay allowing the 8th inning run than that last play. You're just blinded by your love for the no-longer-perfect Duaner.

Johnny Dickshot May 09 2006 11:46 PM

I'm not saying not catching that throw was a *bad* play, just that there's going to be only a few times a year where a tough but makeable failure to make a play at plate makes such a big difference in a game. The ball between he and Heilman was just one of those things. The Reyes pickoff was a worse play by far.

Nymr83 May 10 2006 12:08 AM

Edgy DC wrote: ]If I'm LoDuca, I feel worse about not gathering in that relay allowing the 8th inning run than that last play. You're just blinded by your love for the no-longer-perfect Duaner. can i borrow someone's glasses magnifying glass?, i can't see Duaner's ERA.

Zvon May 10 2006 01:04 AM

="Frayed Knot"] Lots of little culprits tonight: - One Philly triple was catchable and the other certainly shouldn't have been as lonely in the corner as it was. X-Man doesn't seem to get good jumps on balls. As you know from this thread, I agree with the first play. The second?.....it was literally on the line and took a humungous bounce. He should have played it cleanly off the wall/corner, but I think Delucchi still gets three there. Baseball Tonight brought something to my attention I didnt notice at all during the broadcast- That Delgado was playing in with runners at 2nd and 3rd in the 2nd when Rollins singled past him. He must have been in for a possible play at the plate. But with no force you cant play it that way.... he was in and the ball got through the infield easily. Two ribbies for Rollins :P ] - Reyes's baserunning gaffe was the biggest. Not only was a steal there not all that important but to get caught on the fake-to-3rd play is inexcusable. Not his first time for that play IIRC. Logically your correct on both counts- but considering he was safe by more than enough to get the call, even though it was bonehead baseball, the horrible call overides that. (imo) ] - Heilman's throw obviously; he should have let LoDuca take that. Hitting Rollins (and almost Abreu) with a 2-strike count wasn't too cool either. Totally agree-abosolutilly. I saw a side view of that throw and Heilman really blew that big time--it almost went into the stands way right of first base. Once Delucchi was on third with 2 out it didnt matter that he hit Rollins. Maybe even sets up an easier force play for the third out. And he got Abreu to hit a dribbler. It all comes down to that throw, and Heilman not making way for LoDuca (who was shouting for the play--I know-it was a loud crowd) ]- LoDuca's desperation/swipe tag when it wasn't necessary. If he holds on to that throw and simply turns toward the runner with it they've got him cooked. Id have to see this play again. I would have rather seen the ball come from Matsui without a hop. It was a huge run though, one we should have stopped, no matter how we slice it. ] Nice almost comeback though. It almost was. ;) Quite a game.

Zvon May 10 2006 01:12 AM

What Im gonna take away from this game is that we got to Flash Gordon. Thats a positive and dont underestimate the importance of this. He has been fantastic since the seasons start, and the Mets are the ones to dent his armor. Even tho the Phils dented Sanchez's, I think getting to Gordon is big, bigger, and will make a difference next time he's in a save situation vs the Mets. And thats important if your gonna beat Philly.

Frayed Knot May 10 2006 09:19 AM

Not saying that Nady should have had that 2nd triple -- only that it had a lot of hang time and he still wasn't in the picture by the time it landed. He seems to play fly balls rather cautiously at first instead of sprinting to where he thinks it's going to be and then adjusting. Even the catches he does make he tends to make just as he gets there. The 1st triple was a perfect example of just getting there, while Juan Pierre robbing Barry of #714 is one of getting to the spot first. What mattered in hitting Rollins wasn't erely that he hit him but that he was ahead in the count 0-2 It just suxx that the Phils were able to win on a so-so fly ball, HBP, BB & swinging dribbler. Reyes could have been safe by 12 feet and it would still be a dumb move.

Johnny Dickshot May 10 2006 09:24 AM

F'ing Rollins was also standing on home plate when that pitch arrived.

Centerfield May 10 2006 09:36 AM

This game pissed me off. I tuned in after Philly scored their runs, but with the way Pedro was throwing, I know they had no business at all scoring three off him. What is up with these damn umps? First, the non-call on the Reyes blooper that ended up with Pedro being out at second. Burrell short-hopped the ball...there was absolutely no reason there should have been any delay in that call. That is a bad job by the umps. Second, Reyes was safe at second. It's a bonehead play but that doesn't mean he should be automatically out. Third, the strike zone...how high was that pitch to Matsui? It was such a bad call even the Baseball Tonight guys commented about it. Fourth, how that same strike zone magically shrank with Heilman on the mound. I know we got a gift on Opening Day, but haven't we paid the piper by now? What the fuck Reyes. Tying run up at the plate. Stay put. Delgado's HR should have been a 3-run shot. Beltran smoked that pitch from Gordon. And then it ended on that suckass play. As far as I'm concerned, I think we've made up for the Soriano call on Opening Day and Washington's throw-away double play ball. We're due for some more good luck.

soupcan May 10 2006 09:38 AM

What CF said. Dammit.

Elster88 May 10 2006 09:50 AM

]It was such a bad call even the Baseball Tonight guys commented about it You know you're a bad ump when those clowns get it right and you don't.

HahnSolo May 10 2006 10:46 AM

I didn't see a lot of this game, but I was in the car for the 9th inning, and later saw the replays. Two questions: - Strike 3 on Matsui. From the replay it looked a little high, but clearly too close to take. Was the ump calling the high strike all game? I should note that on the radio Howie did not make a big deal about it being a bad call, I think he just said it was up in the zone. -Dellucci's triple. From the replay it looked like the ball hit a restraining barrier above the wall. I don't know the ground rules in that park, but should that have been a ground rule double? McCarthy kept saying on the radio that the ball hit the top of a high wall, but when I saw the replay that clearly was not the case.

duan May 10 2006 10:51 AM

HahnSolo wrote: I didn't see a lot of this game, but I was in the car for the 9th inning, and later saw the replays. Two questions: - Strike 3 on Matsui. From the replay it looked a little high, but clearly too close to take. Was the ump calling the high strike all game? I should note that on the radio Howie did not make a big deal about it being a bad call, I think he just said it was up in the zone. I didn't see this ... BUT the umpires strike zone was ALL OVER the place during the game. It was absolutely shocking.

Centerfield May 10 2006 11:01 AM

HahnSolo wrote: - Strike 3 on Matsui. From the replay it looked a little high, but clearly too close to take. Was the ump calling the high strike all game? I should note that on the radio Howie did not make a big deal about it being a bad call, I think he just said it was up in the zone. I disagree. It was clearly high. If Matsui had swung at it, he would be getting skewered for swinging at Ball 4.

Frayed Knot May 10 2006 11:04 AM

The ump had a big zone the whole game and particularly so at the top of the zone. The first pitch of the game to Reyes was at the upper chest and was called which pretty much set the tone. The difference with Matsui's strike is that it was a breaking ball meaning that it was even higher as it passed him than it was when the catcher caught it. Bad call. The Delucci triple stayed in play. It landed right on the line, then kicked sideways and bounced against the side wall which is considerably higher than the reg OF wall. A bad break followed by a bad break.

Elster88 May 10 2006 11:46 AM

Centerfield wrote: ="HahnSolo"] - Strike 3 on Matsui. From the replay it looked a little high, but clearly too close to take. Was the ump calling the high strike all game? I should note that on the radio Howie did not make a big deal about it being a bad call, I think he just said it was up in the zone. I disagree. It was clearly high. If Matsui had swung at it, he would be getting skewered for swinging at Ball 4. Matsui will get skewered no matter what he does.

Zvon May 10 2006 04:06 PM

Frayed Knot wrote: Not saying that Nady should have had that 2nd triple -- only that it had a lot of hang time and he still wasn't in the picture by the time it landed. He seems to play fly balls rather cautiously at first instead of sprinting to where he thinks it's going to be and then adjusting. Even the catches he does make he tends to make just as he gets there. The 1st triple was a perfect example of just getting there, while Juan Pierre robbing Barry of #714 is one of getting to the spot first. Ya know, you got a good point there. Seeing the play again today it had so much hang time that it dropped straight down on a line out of the sky ( hence the humongous bounce). Yea, he's an adventure out there the way he circumnavagates right field. The second inning triple-if he gets to that spot, stands there---he dont even have to jump- he can reach up and catch the flyball. Still, Nadys bat and timely hitting has been a big plus. I like that lil hop/skip (or whatever yud call it) he takes after connecting well on a pitch. Like a recoil or something. Thats freaky.

Frayed Knot May 10 2006 04:36 PM

I guess X-man failing to come up with that 9th inning triple just proves that the old expression is really true: Nobody puts Nady in a corner

Centerfield May 10 2006 04:40 PM

Wow. Fantastic.