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="Yancy Street Gang"]I don't think "our talent in the minors" will produce anyone the quality of Roger Clemens for 2006.
He would definitely improve the team.quote]
True, but not at 12 million dollars or more.
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MFS62
May 03 2006 06:46 PM
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TheOldMole wrote:
Hey, I remember when Sal Maglie was traded to the Dodgers. We never hated anyone more as a Giant, or rooted for anyone harder as a Dodger. |
Cue the music:
We met at nine.
We met at eight.
I was on time.
No, you were late.
Ah, yes,
I remember it well.
Well said, Mole.
Later
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Willets Point
May 04 2006 10:23 AM
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I added a poll to this thread.
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MFS62
May 04 2006 10:33 AM
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Willets Point wrote:
I added a poll to this thread. |
That's funny.
You don't look Pollish.
Later
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cooby
May 04 2006 10:39 AM
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I voted #3, but only because I wouldn't mind seeing him grovel
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Edgy DC
May 04 2006 10:40 AM
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| ]We never hated anyone more as a Giant |
Hate=ugly emotion
| ]or rooted for anyone harder as a Dodger. |
I don't believe you.
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Willets Point
May 04 2006 10:45 AM
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MFS62 wrote:
| ="Willets Point"]I added a poll to this thread. |
That's funny.
You don't look Pollish.
Later |
<rimshot>
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soupcan
May 04 2006 10:46 AM
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soupcan wrote:
No, no, no, no, no, no.
Sometimes you just gotta take a stand dammit. |
| ="Willets Point"]Even if it helps the Mets win a pennant? |
Yup. I'm with CF - I like to like my team. I do not like this guy. In general I don't dig mercenaries. Specifically I don't dig Clemens.
Didn't like him in 1986. Didn't like him when he forced his way out of Toronto. Didn't like him when he basically rode the Yankees coattails for his first ring. Didn't like him when he plunked Piazza solely because Piazza owned him, didn't like him when threw the bat and then acted like he was in some sort of zombie haze ('I thought it was the ball!') when he threw it, didn't like him when he 'retired' and accepted accolades throughout the league and then 'unretired' .
I don't want this douchebag to play for my team, win a ring and then forever be linked to the Mets. Ugh, no thank you. Pass.
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cooby
May 04 2006 10:50 AM
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('I thought it was the ball!')
I'm still trying to figure out why throwing the ball at Piazza would have been okay
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silverdsl
May 04 2006 01:03 PM
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I think Clemens is an asshole too. However, when he was in pinstripes and he helped the Yankees to win, I cheered for him, just like I cheered for the other players that I disliked who were Yankees. I can't say that I don't care at all about personality or what a player does outside of their performance on the field but it's easy to forgive a lot when a player pitches like Clemens is capable of.
Clemens is still well-loved by most Yankees fans so it would be interesting to see what the reaction might be if he signed with the Mets.
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Nymr83
May 04 2006 04:40 PM
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Clemens is well loved by johnny-come-lately frontrunners in the bronx, most of those who were fans before '96 (ie about 1% of the total population of "yankee fans") hate the red sock bastard.
I could never root for a man who threw a bat at my team's player and then said "i thought it was the ball." thats like a defendant in a murder trial shooting someone with a shotgun and saying "i swear i thought it was a rifle" in his defense.
if Clemens came to the Mets i would not attend/watch/listen to any of his starts.
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Centerfield
May 04 2006 04:46 PM
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Can you imagine if Clemens came to the Mets, swiped 18 million and then sucked? Wow. They wouldn't have to tear down Shea. The boos would be so loud the place would crumble.
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Rockin' Doc
May 04 2006 08:13 PM
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I would rather not see Clemens in a Mets uniform. I'd rather be proud of how the Mets won a World Series, than feel that they won by simply buying a title without regard for the individuals they chose to represent the team. As great a pitcher as he has been in his career, I'd rather not have Clemens on my team.
If all that matterd to me was winning at all costs, I'd be pulling for Steinbrenner to buy the Mets.
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Elster88
May 05 2006 07:09 AM
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I am surprised at the results of this poll. I voted hell no.
Keep Clemens and Rocker off my team. And Clemens' offspring.
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cooby
May 05 2006 07:15 AM
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I was surprised at the results of my "Bond HR" poll too, Elster, I guess all of our contrasting opinions explains why we have such lively conversations around here.
http://cybermessageboard.ehost.com/getalife/viewtopic.php?t=2921
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smg58
May 07 2006 04:20 PM
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I had to come back to this thread, as the status of our rotation has changed rather significantly since Friday. I hate Clemens, like I think most of us do, but the Mets are a division leader with a serious problem in the back of their rotation, they do have some money to spend, and it may be tough to find a trade suitor who doesn't ask for Pelfrey or Milledge in return for a lesser pitcher than Clemens. Minaya would not be doing his job if he didn't call up the Hendricks brothers and at least see what it would take.
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Bret Sabermetric
May 07 2006 05:47 PM
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I will LMFAO if the Mets sign Clemens. I'll even break my guidelines for this season and buy a ticket to watch that. Hell, I'll even spring for a hotdog.
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SI Metman
May 07 2006 08:13 PM
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Willets Point wrote:
Now I'm dressed as Yancy dressed as Staten Island Metman.
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Yeah, the Franco look is a good look.
As for Clemens, you gotta do it. You saw what he did the last 2 seasons in the Juice Box, imagine what he would have done at Shea. 12 million for 12 wins and 4 more in October would be well worth it.
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Frayed Knot
May 07 2006 08:16 PM
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Houston has reportedly offered him $20mil already (not sure if it's an actual $20mil or a pro-rated portion of $20/year).
Whatever the case, $12 ain't gonna get it done.
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Bret Sabermetric
May 07 2006 08:28 PM
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And you don't think going an extra 12 mil or 15 mil or whatever at the beginning of the year for a starting pitcher would have made more sense? These guys couldn't figure out a strategy if they were on fire and standing on a diving board.
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Frayed Knot
May 07 2006 08:35 PM
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What's your point?
Which pitcher was available for $12-15mil at the beginning of the year that you would have wanted? -- Clemens wasn't.
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Bret Sabermetric
May 07 2006 08:43 PM
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Let's see--I think the Mets had a starting pitcher, now on Baltimore, who they could have kept for less than 15 mil, and probably had a little left over to acquire a middle reliever almost as good as the stud we traded for him.
Or are you now maintaining that there were no starting pitchers they could have acquired on the FA market this past winter for less than 15 mil?
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SI Metman
May 07 2006 09:10 PM
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Call me when Benson puts up Clemens numbers.
Yeah, they coulda kept him, but he'd be mixed in with mediocrity at the back of the rotation.
Clemens is the frontline guy that the Mets needed.
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Bret Sabermetric
May 07 2006 09:31 PM
Edited 1 time(s), most recently on May 07 2006 09:49 PM
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Clemens is the single most contemptible source of evil in the known universe, too***. To put themselves in a spot where they're relying on Clemens to bail them out of a tough spot suggests, I don't know, a lack of planning? Is this really their finest option? If so, they haven';t explored their previous choices for the rotation carefully enough.
I tell you this: on the night I'm springing to see Clemens's Met debut, I'm bringing a sign that makes a corollary demand: WE WANT ROCKER, TOO
*** Or Bonds, actually. I can't make up my mind, they're both so deliciously twisted. (OE)
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Bret Sabermetric
May 07 2006 09:33 PM
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Also GET MIKE JAMES!
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Elster88
May 08 2006 07:02 AM
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SI Metman wrote:
Call me when Benson puts up Clemens numbers.
Yeah, they coulda kept him, but he'd be mixed in with mediocrity at the back of the rotation.
Clemens is the frontline guy that the Mets needed. |
They don't need Clemens at all.
A rotation of Pedro-Glavine-Benson-Trachsel-Garbage is as good as almost any in baseball. Especially since the 4 non-garbage guys are all healthy at the moment.
And all the Mets would be missing now would be a couple extra dollars and Jorge Julio.
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smg58
May 08 2006 08:28 AM
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Elster88 wrote:
They don't need Clemens at all. |
You mean they DIDN'T need Clemens at all.
Having a pitcher's wife influence personnel decisions is never a winning strategy, and I'd have no problem arguing that was a really shortsighted trade and Minaya's worst decision since he got here, but the bottom line is Julio is here and Benson isn't. Just like Zambrano is (or until recently was) here and Kazmir isn't. We can lament the deals all we want, but we can't undo them.
So where does that leave the Mets right now?
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seawolf17
May 08 2006 09:22 AM
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There's a guy -- on the open market -- who won 31 games and struck out 400 guys in the last two seasons. He costs nothing more than a few million dollars; no prospects, no future stars, just dollars. And I know it ain't my money, but Fred and Jeff will sell plenty of orange-and-blue CLEMENS 22 shirts once he starts winning games and striking out Braves and Phillies and Marlins. So I'd say get him the hell in here and see what it would take.
Look -- I hate the fucker too. But if he's going to help the team win games, then I'd say he has to be worth a look.
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Benjamin Grimm
May 08 2006 09:25 AM
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I'm afraid I don't understand these references to "blue and orange."
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metirish
May 08 2006 09:31 AM
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Lets say the Mets offered Clemens $20 million you just know Steinbrenner would go higher, no way he'd let the Mets have him.
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Bret Sabermetric
May 08 2006 09:47 AM
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metirish wrote:
Lets say the Mets offered Clemens $20 million you just know Steinbrenner would go higher, no way he'd let the Mets have him. |
Then why not offer 30 mil, just to make George offer 40?
Because he's not stupid, is why. George would love to see the Mets overpay for Clemens, put with his BS for a season, and blow donkeyballs. Clemens like all pitchers has a certain market value. To bid over that value for the sake of the back page is stupid. With Clemens' baggage with this franchise, I think he has less value here than he does on the open market.
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Benjamin Grimm
May 08 2006 09:53 AM
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George's moves are not always rational, and frequently do take the back page into account. That contract he gave Randy Johnson is a great example of this.
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Bret Sabermetric
May 08 2006 10:28 AM
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Was Johnson's signng more back page oriented and less value oriented than Glavine's? You could easily argue that RJ was a better pitcher, coming off a better year.
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Rotblatt
May 08 2006 10:48 AM
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I dunno. I hate Clemens, but seawolf has some good points. If we're NOT going to put Heilman in the rotation or promote Pelfry or Soler to fill our #4 hole, signing a solid pitcher who won't cost us any prospects is a smart move.
Clemens for 1 year - $22M > Zito for 1 year - Milledge
I think it's a moot point, though, as there's no way Clemens comes to Queens. It'll be Texas or nothing.
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Johnny Dickshot
May 08 2006 10:56 AM
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Bret Sabermetric wrote:
Was Johnson's signng more back page oriented and less value oriented than Glavine's? You could easily argue that RJ was a better pitcher, coming off a better year. |
Sure. But don't forget Yankees gave up players (Vazquez, Navarro and Halsey) and money (paying Vazquez salary PLUS a contract extension & raise) for Johnson who since joining the team has been performing worse than Glavine.
The Yanks might have had the better timing to try and jam a veteran all-star onto the team but neither move has worked out perfectly and one was certainly more expensive than the other.
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Benjamin Grimm
May 08 2006 11:16 AM
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Also, when Glavine pitched his first game for the Mets, he was a few weeks past his 37th birthday. When Johnson first took the mound for the Yankees, he was more than 41 and a half.
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old original jb
May 08 2006 11:23 AM
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I voted no on Clemens for purely emotional reasons. You have to draw a line somewhere. I know intellectually that the idea that we are not rooting for corporate laundry is a myth, but paying Clemens to pitch for the Mets would just make me face that reality on gut level every five days--something no fan should ever have to do. It would be like telling the proverbial little kid there's no Santa Claus.
For those knocking the lack of forsight of the Benson trade:
1) hindsight is 50/50
2) If Julio continues in his current form, a very mediocre and expensive starter looks a lot more replaceable to me than the third anchor of the best middle bullpen in the league.
I think I'm going to start the MRPAS (Middle Relief Pitching Appreciation Society).
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Elster88
May 08 2006 12:00 PM
Edited 2 time(s), most recently on May 08 2006 12:24 PM
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]For those knocking the lack of forsight of the Benson trade:
1) hindsight is 50/50 |
For me, at least, this is not hindsight. ;-) I don't know why everyone didn't realize that someone in the rotation was going to get hurt at some point.
| ]2) If Julio continues in his current form, a very mediocre and expensive starter looks a lot more replaceable to me than the third anchor of the best middle bullpen in the league |
I disagree completely, for the following reasons:
A rotation is not going to go injury-free the entire year. It'd be nice to have a mediocre starter to replace the hurt guy instead of a John Maine, Jose Lima, Jeremi Gonzalez, or two guys with a combined 3 starts at a level above A ball.
Benson is really not that expensive. "Very mediocre starters" go for a lot these day, and are actually quite hard to find.
See: Benson Bunch archived thread and, [url]http://cybermessageboard.ehost.com/getalife/viewtopic.php?t=3262&start=36[/url]
]On the free agent market 8 - 12 million per year has been getting you
AJ Burnett
Kevin Millwood
Jarrod Washburn
Matt Morris
Jeff Weaver
Kenny Rogers
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Anyway you slice it, we have two big question marks out of 5 starters. (I include Bannister.) Out of Bannister, Maine, Lima, Gonzalez, Heilman, Pelfrey and Soler, there are exactly zero proven major league starters (Lima stopped being a proven ML starter two years ago). Whatver you want to call Benson, you have to admit he is a proven major league starter. Would you rather have four starters be proven major leaguers or have a (for the sake of argument, we'll use "very good") a third very good setup man?
On top of that, our other three guys are older fellows, with one being a very average pitcher. You don't think one of them is going to go down at some point this year? Pedro misses three weeks every year. At that point we've got a question mark filling in for our stud, instead of the current situation (a question mark filling in for a question mark).
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Iubitul
May 08 2006 12:19 PM
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I voted no for completely emotional and visceral reasons - I would probably walk away until he slinked off into the sunset.
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Willets Point
May 08 2006 12:22 PM
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Bret Sabermetric wrote:
I will LMFAO if the Mets sign Clemens. I'll even break my guidelines for this season and buy a ticket to watch that. Hell, I'll even spring for a hotdog. |
Are you doing an ambler now and boycotting the Mets? I guess I can't meet up with you for a game like we did last season (seriously, that was pretty fun).
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Elster88
May 11 2006 11:28 AM
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Are you telling me that the Onion is too classy to go the "wife offers sex as a performance-based bonus" route?
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Willets Point
May 11 2006 11:30 AM
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Maybe you should write for the Onion.
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Frayed Knot
May 11 2006 12:38 PM
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Latest actual news on Clemens is that he claims to be almost physically ready but nowhere near mentally ready.
Translation: I'm not into it mentally at $3mil/month, get back to me when the bidding hits $4mil-per.
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metirish
May 11 2006 12:44 PM
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Funny...
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/48402
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Edgy DC
May 11 2006 12:59 PM
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Ouch. That last one. Just ouch.
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Elster88
May 11 2006 01:40 PM
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Those were great irish. Better than the Onion's usual.
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KC
May 31 2006 11:08 AM
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'stros win ...
http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060531&content_id=1480965&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb
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Vic Sage
May 31 2006 12:16 PM
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i just added him in one of my fantasy leagues.
too bad we couldn't add him in a real league.
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soupcan
May 31 2006 12:34 PM
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I hope he gets lit up like a Christmas tree in every start he makes.
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metirish
May 31 2006 12:37 PM
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WTF kinda deal did he get, I'm reading $22 million but it gets confusing after that, explain please.
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Gwreck
May 31 2006 12:45 PM
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metirish wrote:
WTF kinda deal did he get, I'm reading $22 million but it gets confusing after that, explain please. |
It's a $22 Million major league, full-season contract. That's what he'd get if he was on the roster for the whole season.
He only gets a percentage of that $22 million -- the same percentage of the season that he's on the Astros' 25-man roster. It'll be approximately $12.6 million.
He's being paid according to a minor league contract until he reaches the majors.
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metirish
May 31 2006 12:48 PM
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Ahh ok, thanks Gwreck, damn and Houston are 6.5 games out, I guess they are hoping to ignite the team.
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metirish
Jun 06 2006 09:07 AM
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So Houston are 2 and 8 in the last 10 games and have lost 5 in a row,I guess the team wasn't all that jazzed about Rajah joining them again and are now 8.5 games out.
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Elster88
Jun 06 2006 09:08 AM
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Showing that Clemens is all about the $$$. I'm assuming he got a no-trade clause?
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Elster88
Jun 06 2006 09:09 AM
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| ]I don't necessarily know that I need to or that I want to, but I'm committed. |
He doesn't know if he wants to...but he IS committed.
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metirish
Jun 06 2006 09:10 AM
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Elster how could you say that, Bob Klapisch said after the deal that this was NOT about money but about ending his career with his son....
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Benjamin Grimm
Jun 06 2006 09:12 AM
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I think he's just trying to break Cher's record for most farewell appearances.
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Centerfield
Jun 07 2006 10:51 AM
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I meant to mention this the other day...ESPN had a story on him where he agreed to pick up all the meals for all his teammates while he was with the club. He also donated a big screen TV, couches etc to re-do the locker room. I thought this was a pretty cool thing to do.
Not that this changes the fact that he's a moose-fucking asshead.
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Edgy DC
Jun 07 2006 11:11 AM
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seawolf17
Jun 07 2006 11:12 AM
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Milfy.
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