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Rolen and McGriff

Edgy MD Jul 24 2023 08:02 PM

Two terrific players, and I salute both of their causes and welcome both openly to Cooperstown, but ... is this, like, one of the least legendary classes there has been? I know it's probably not the least, because some years, the BBWAA produced only one inductee, and then the Hall kind of put the screws to the Vets Committee to make sure they selected somebody to round out the ceremony, but that second guy would have been typically weaker. With his glovework, Rolen's probably in the top 100 players of all time, and The Crime Dog is probably in the top 250. Neither will bring shame on the Hall, but ... I'd still take Lou Whitaker or Bobby Grich over either. I'd certainly take Keith Hernandez or even Jack Clark over McGriff. McGriff also seemingly switched teams every three years, so I guess part of the tarnish is that there's no huge natural constituency for him.

stevejrogers Jul 24 2023 09:02 PM Re: Rolen and McGriff

Edgy MD wrote: McGriff also seemingly switched teams every three years, so I guess part of the tarnish is that there's no huge natural constituency for him. His plaque cap is blank, but on the Hall's website, his main team is listed as the Braves https://baseballhall.org/hall-of-famers/mcgriff-fred Interestingly, Rolen went in as a Cardinal, but his “Main Team” is listed as the Phillies https://baseballhall.org/hall-of-famers/rolen-scott

nymr83 Jul 24 2023 10:46 PM Re: Rolen and McGriff

Edgy MD wrote: Two terrific players, and I salute both of their causes and welcome both openly to Cooperstown, but ... is this, like, one of the least legendary classes there has been? I know it's probably not the least, because some years, the BBWAA produced only one inductee, and then the Hall kind of put the screws to the Vets Committee to make sure they selected somebody to round out the ceremony, but that second guy would have been typically weaker. recent classes have been pretty weak 2022: David Ortiz and a bunch of guys the Veterans committee let in but shouldn't have 2021: Nobody! 2020: The worst defensive player OF ALL TIME and a guy who did all his damage at pre-humidor Coors, 2014-2019 were all pretty good classes and with that backlog of players gone its been downhill since 2013 was brutal - a yankee owner, an umpire, and an above-average but not great ballplayer who played his last game in 1890 - who the heck did his great great grandkids pay off? 2012 was roughly the same as this year - Larkin = Rolen and Santo = a very borderline addition, to be generous.

Frayed Knot Jul 25 2023 04:17 AM Re: Rolen and McGriff

My main question, after seeing some of the clips from over the weekend, is that when did Rolen, ten years younger than McGriff, become ten years older than McGriff?

metirish Jul 25 2023 06:23 AM Re: Rolen and McGriff

Frayed Knot wrote: My main question, after seeing some of the clips from over the weekend, is that when did Rolen, ten years younger than McGriff, become ten years older than McGriff? Seriously, he looked awful, like a man that had a serious session the night before Anyway , it is a weak class

G-Fafif Jul 25 2023 06:45 AM Re: Rolen and McGriff

Great stuff on Rolen from his peers, including some Mets, by Mark Simon. Todd Zeile was Scott Rolen's first major league first baseman and an experienced third baseman in his own right. The 1996 Phillies were the third of Zeile's 11 MLB teams. He had a lot of teammates, but few compared to Rolen defensively. Todd Zeile (Phillies 1B, 1996): “There's a timing mechanism that good third basemen have [so] that they know how much time they have to deliver the ball to get the runner by a step. Scott, for as athletic as he was at third base, had that built-in clock. I had really struggled with that and made a lot of unforced errors. He would dive and sprawl and roll and come up and throw it from weird angles but he always seemed to have that clock that would give him just enough time to get his balance, make accurate throws, and not make unforced errors.” Mike Lieberthal (Phillies C, 1996-2002): “He was also amazing on the fly ball hit over his head, going down the left field line. He was very light on his feet for his size.” Desi Relaford (Phillies SS, 1996-2000): “He did this slide thing where he could slide on his knee or ass, a slide-scoop, know what I'm saying? Backhand. And he would either throw it from his knees or he'd pop up if he had time and show off the cannon. I saw that one a lot.” Zeile: “He was very good at throwing on the run, especially moving away from first base. He had arm strength when he needed it.” The impressions Rolen made early were echoed by impressions he'd continue to make as his career unfolded. David Eckstein (Cardinals SS, 2006-2007, Blue Jays, 2008): “The first movement to the ball was catlike. You know how you see a cat that's sitting there, they see something and they explode to it?” Nelson Figueroa (Phillies P, 2001): “The thing about Rolen is he was so big but so agile. His reads were instantaneous, and he could cover so much ground. He had the range of a shortstop with the stopping power of a brick wall.” Paul Janish (Reds SS, 2009-2011): “You're talking about a 6-4 or 6-5 guy that was probably pushing 240, like a really big individual, and he just made it look easy.” Jim Edmonds (Cardinals CF, 2002-2007): “Scott was like this solid wall of defense.” Lieberthal, twice a National League All-Star as a Phillie, said one of the first things he noticed about Rolen was that Rolen's legs looked like they were three times the size of his average-sized legs. He was impressed by Rolen's ability to get to balls so easily despite that size. So Lieberthal let Rolen know about one type of play that Scott could have to himself. Lieberthal: “I hated popups. So I would tell him, especially in [windy] San Francisco, and any place that had a large area behind home plate, ‘Scotty, you can have all the popups. I'm not dealing with it.'” Relaford: “When you have someone on your team who was as good as he was and being able to watch him every day, not only does he make your team better, but you can learn from that, and implement. Whether it's the tenacity or getting good jumps. You can't teach me 6-5, 230 pounds, but just being able to take it all in and see what he brings to the park from a mindset standpoint.” “He played the game like it was supposed to be played. He played hard. He ran hard. He threw hard.” https://www.sportsinfosolutions.com/2023/03/01/an-oral-history-of-scott-rolens-defensive-excellence/

metsmarathon Jul 25 2023 07:02 AM Re: Rolen and McGriff

rolen is absolutely deserving of being in the hall. he's a top-10 third baseman. mcgriff is a little light on credentials, but he's kindof the anti-steroid pick. also, the best part about him being in the hall is that it makes the absence of mex and olerud more apparent.

cal sharpie Jul 25 2023 07:11 AM Re: Rolen and McGriff

I remember the year Don Sutton went into the HOF I heard an interview with Joe Morgan. Morgan said that when you knew you were going to face an all-time great you had to psyche yourself up to meet the challenge. The interviewer asked him if he felt that way when he faced Don Sutton. Morgan said that he had to admit that he didn't. I never felt while watching Scott Rolen or Fred McGriff that I was watching a future Hall of Famer. Yeah, there are worse choices that have been made in recent years (looking at you, Harold Baines) but this is a pretty ordinary couple of inductees.

metirish Jul 25 2023 07:28 AM Re: Rolen and McGriff

Rolen certainly seemed like a Hall of fame player against the Mets IIRC

Johnny Lunchbucket Jul 25 2023 07:32 AM Re: Rolen and McGriff

Wouldn't consider either guy baseball royalty but the stats pretty much speak for themselves

G-Fafif Jul 25 2023 07:35 AM Re: Rolen and McGriff

=metirish post_id=132704 time=1690291711 user_id=72] Rolen certainly seemed like a Hall of fame player against the Mets IIRC

On August 28, 2001, Rolen snuffed out a Met rally with his glove like a man in a fedora taking his heel to the stub of a cigarette. We went on to lose in extra innings. Combined with the two Brian Jordan Games, I'm convinced it's why the 2001 Mets aren't remembered for lifting New York on their shoulders come October.

ashie62 Jul 25 2023 09:13 AM Re: Rolen and McGriff

I think of McGriff as more of a compiler of numbers but have no problem with it

Edgy MD Jul 25 2023 09:24 AM Re: Rolen and McGriff

Yeah, I don't mean to toss either of these guys aside either, despite my lede in this thread. Rolen had 9.2 WAR in 2004 in only 142 games. He out-WARred Albert Pujols who slugged and slugged and slugged, because defense counts.

Fman99 Jul 25 2023 09:40 AM Re: Rolen and McGriff

cal sharpie wrote: I never felt while watching Scott Rolen or Fred McGriff that I was watching a future Hall of Famer. ^

Cowtipper Jul 31 2023 05:42 PM Re: Rolen and McGriff

Rolen looked like a future Hall of Famer early on, then he kept getting hurt. After about 2004, his career basically dragged ... when he played, he was solid, but for almost a decade he was somewhat elusive and his offense was seriously down over the first half of his career and that puts a damper on his case overall. The great early Rolen was overshadowed by the constantly hurt later Rolen. McGriff was the consummate compiler and is one of those sorts you look back on and think to yourself, "did he REALLY finish with nearly 500 home runs? Did he REALLY have over 1,500 RBI?" For what it's worth, he was one of the best RBI guys of his era, averaging 98 per year from 1989 to 2002. I don't mind either of them being in. I was more on Team McGriff than Team Rolen, but I don't think either hurt the Hall.