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2023 Gold Gloves

Frayed Knot Oct 19 2023 07:49 PM

Or, more accurately, the Gold Glove finalists. i don't see the point in this 'finalist' stuff, but I've yapped about this before and that's where they are these days. Anyway, Lindor is the only NYM finalist, at SS obviously, along with Dansby Swanson and Colorado's Ezequiel Tovar My only real complaint is with the 'Utility' category. It's the one where McSquirrel had a good case but where two of the three candidates are guys who were also nominated at other positions: Mookie Betts (RF & Util) and SD's Ha-Seong Kim (2B & Util) It seems to me that if you play enough to be considered for one of the nine positions then you shouldn't really be thought of as a rover also. Betts played 107 games in RF plus 70 at 2B and 16 at SS (more than 162 you'll notice meaning he switched during the game at times). So he appeared in RF just shy of 2/3rds of the time and full games in RF even less. Kim played 106 at 2B plus 32 @ 3B and 20 @ SS so, again, why are we nominating a 2B who played <2/3 of the time. The utility award should be instead of a full time position award, not in addition to IMO.

The Hot Corner Oct 19 2023 09:18 PM Re: 2023 Gold Gloves

Frayed Knot wrote: ...The utility award should be instead of a full time position award, not in addition to IMO. I agree. The utility award should be exclusively for those that played 3 (or more) defensive positions with distinction without necessarily be a regular starter at any one of them.

Fman99 Oct 20 2023 01:59 PM Re: 2023 Gold Gloves

Frayed Knot wrote: Or, more accurately, the Gold Glove finalists. i don't see the point in this 'finalist' stuff, but I've yapped about this before and that's where they are these days. Announcing the finalists for any award in baseball is mad stupid. What is this, the Golden Globes?

Edgy MD Oct 20 2023 02:25 PM Re: 2023 Gold Gloves

It gets more press releases out leading to more coverage in more cities. The way to measure versatility is to double the credit for the secondary performance. Similarly, if you're looking for a strong family output as far as pitchers, it's silly to credit Christy and Henry Matthewson as better than the Niekros or the Perrys, so when looking at families, that's what Bill James did. He went further and tripled and quadrupled the third- and fourth-most productive members of the family. So, if you gave a guy full credit at his first position, double credit at his second position, triple credit at his tertiary position, etc., you might get a more meaningful example of a utility guy.

Marshmallowmilkshake Oct 20 2023 02:32 PM Re: 2023 Gold Gloves

Frayed Knot wrote: Or, more accurately, the Gold Glove finalists. i don't see the point in this 'finalist' stuff, but I've yapped about this before and that's where they are these days. Announcing the finalists for any award in baseball is mad stupid. What is this, the Golden Globes? It's the same reason the Golden Globes does it. Announcing the finalists drives interest and discussion and even debate. This gets announced and the Cubs and Rockies and Mets all have another chance and news peg to highlight one of their players. The players get a little love and respect. Multiply that by both leagues and all the positions. It keeps baseball in the headlines. The columnists get something to write about and we get something to read other than the Giants sucking.

Frayed Knot Oct 20 2023 04:40 PM Re: 2023 Gold Gloves

But then fans who think their player has a chance at some award get told before the decisions are even close that their guy has no shot ... so it's not generating any interest for them, in fact it's killing it. And emulating the Golden Globes has limited appeal without actresses in low cut dresses displaying ... well, their golden globes.

Edgy MD Oct 20 2023 08:19 PM Re: 2023 Gold Gloves

I would suggest that it's generating far more interest than it's killing.

Frayed Knot Oct 21 2023 06:11 AM Re: 2023 Gold Gloves

Couldn't disagree more. If I care about one of my guys, or any guy for that matter, potentially being in the mix for a GG, MVP, ROY, CY, etc., I'm going to look forward to the reveal of the final results even if my fave ultimately winds up outside the top three. With the pre-release list I no longer have interest in the ones where they tell me ahead of time that he/they have no shot. There's little to no drama in finding out whether someone finished 4th or 6th

roger_that Oct 21 2023 06:34 AM Re: 2023 Gold Gloves

Frayed Knot wrote: Couldn't disagree more. Me neither With you. I'd love it if they'd have about 500 knowledgeable voters for the GGs, ranking each position from 1-12, and release the entire voting to the public every year.

Edgy MD Oct 21 2023 06:48 AM Re: 2023 Gold Gloves

Frayed Knot wrote: Couldn't disagree more. That's an amazing amount of disagreement.

Frayed Knot Oct 21 2023 07:02 AM Re: 2023 Gold Gloves

We all know that fans are going to bitch about awards voting in almost every category every year, and are of course going to direct that ire towards the writers, usually with the complaint that voting should be done by baseball people. But the thing about the GG awards in particular is that those are the ones which have long been voted on by managers and coaches (although these days there's also a 30% statistical element to them) and yet are the ones which they seem to get wrong more than any other (Kate Upton's colorful comments on the AL CY voting a few years back notwithstanding). Mostly it seems like it's the one that's mostly a reputation vote (can't just out-point the champ, you've gotta knock him out to dethrone him). And it would be nice if they took showing up every day into consideration. As mentioned above, Betts is on the RF list despite playing less than 2/3 of his games there, Kim at 2B even fewer, and Rizzo at 1B in the AL, while a wonderful defensive player, played less than 100 G total (some at DH). All of which recalls the ultimate in bad voting, the year where Rafael Palmiero won a GG at 1B despite playing all by 20-some games at DH. That's an amazing amount of disagreement. I find the concept amazingly disagreeable.

Marshmallowmilkshake Oct 21 2023 07:09 AM Re: 2023 Gold Gloves

Frayed Knot wrote: Couldn't disagree more. If I care about one of my guys, or any guy for that matter, potentially being in the mix for a GG, MVP, ROY, CY, etc., I'm going to look forward to the reveal of the final results even if my fave ultimately winds up outside the top three. With the pre-release list I no longer have interest in the ones where they tell me ahead of time that he/they have no shot. There's little to no drama in finding out whether someone finished 4th or 6th I respect your opinion, and I'm not saying you are wrong for the diehard fans like you and me. But a more casual fan is aware of the Gold Gloves but probably doesn't know when they are released and might not be thinking about which of his guys are in the running. But the league reports the finalists, and that gets the attention of the more casual fan, who will scan the list to see if his team's guy is on there. He'll see Lindor and cheer, he'll say, "I didn't even realize Swanson had a decent glove. I thought he was just another former Brave with a goofy name." He'll look to see if McNeil is on there because Buck was talking about it and declare he got robbed. Teams put out social media graphics with their guy -- which the Mets did with Lindor. Ane people are talking about the Gold Gloves in online baseball forums, a discussion that might not have happened in advance had the list not been released.

Frayed Knot Oct 21 2023 07:40 AM Re: 2023 Gold Gloves

This argument strikes me as similar to the whole inter-league proposal, where it was talked about as if IL games were somehow in addition to other games instead of in place of others. NYM fans gain a series with the Twins & Mariners but also lose one to the Cards & Cubs. So even if one wants to argue that the novelty of an IL game vs a rarely seen opponent is the equal to one against a long time rival with history behind it, at best it's a net wash. I'd argue it's a net loss but that's a discussion for another day. With this pre-release finalist voting it *might be* creating interest (I'd argue it's little or none) for the fans of the three players "nominated" but at the same time it's killing interest for multiple others who had hopes that their guy might be in the running. Now those casual NYM fans supposedly helped by this in the case of Lindor also know for a fact that not only is McNeal not going to win in the Utility category but he's not even going to place or show. We know before the race is even run that he apparently got left in the barn. Tiny interest (maybe) gained for a few fans vs total interest completely gone for a lot more. I see ZERO upside to this.

Edgy MD Oct 21 2023 08:25 AM Re: 2023 Gold Gloves

Yes, you made that clear.

roger_that Oct 21 2023 09:49 AM Re: 2023 Gold Gloves

There was always something that struck me as a bit fascistic or at least authoritarian about the GGs coming from On High, as if there were no close decisions, or fielders who had ranked in the top four at their positions for a decade or more, or no one who had ever finished second to three different GG winners (and was, overall, therefore the best fielder over that three-year period, the lack of GGs notwithstanding). It has always struck me as deeply suspect that Maddux or Mazeroski or Mays, to stick only with the "M"s, won their GGs every year for a decade. All these stars had off-years with the bat (or the arm) when someone else outhit (or outpitched) them, and we could see that rarity because it showed up in the basic stats, but since there are no basic stats in fielding (at least none that made a shred of sense) we just let it go. Of course, Willie had a year or two when Ashburn or Pinson or Flood or someone outfielded him in CF but you'd never know it from the GG Awards. I dislike the GG awards intensely, but the top three nominees is the least of it.

Marshmallowmilkshake Oct 21 2023 03:07 PM Re: 2023 Gold Gloves

Showing that MLB spread the love to spread the interest, all 15 National League teams have at least one finalist, and 12 of the 15 American League teams. Athletics, Angels and Royals fans can stop paying attention.

Fman99 Oct 23 2023 05:30 AM Re: 2023 Gold Gloves

Frayed Knot wrote: Couldn't disagree more. If I care about one of my guys, or any guy for that matter, potentially being in the mix for a GG, MVP, ROY, CY, etc., I'm going to look forward to the reveal of the final results even if my fave ultimately winds up outside the top three. With the pre-release list I no longer have interest in the ones where they tell me ahead of time that he/they have no shot. There's little to no drama in finding out whether someone finished 4th or 6th I'm with FK on this one. I think the primary purpose of having all the "finalists" released for every award is that it gives something for TV wonks on the MLB network to discuss on a weekday in January when only mental patients are watching baseball talk programming.

Frayed Knot Nov 06 2023 08:10 AM Re: 2023 Gold Gloves

Swanson, not Lindor, wins the NL SS GG. Apparently the GGs were announced sometime last night on ESPN. I had no idea, so if the idea behind making pre-nominations weeks in advance was to generate interest leading up to the announcement of the awards I don't think it worked very well.

kcmets Nov 06 2023 08:25 AM Re: 2023 Gold Gloves

I largely ignored the Yankees this year. Moreso than ever, I guess. I knew Volpe was really good, I did not realize he was first Yankee rookie to ever win a Gold Glove good until just NOW!!!

kcmets Nov 06 2023 08:33 AM Re: 2023 Gold Gloves

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