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Soler up!
| Bret Sabermetric May 21 2006 09:43 AM |
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Adam Rubin on WFAN just now.
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| KC May 21 2006 09:53 AM |
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My initial reaction is he makes more sense than bringing up Pelfrey.
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| Johnny Dickshot May 21 2006 09:57 AM |
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He was in the minors so as to get up his arm strength after a lengthy layoff due to all those visa problems.
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| Bret Sabermetric May 21 2006 09:59 AM |
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KC, that's kinda my point: was he really not so regarded two months ago (or really when Bannister went down a month ago) and now he's learned so much about pitching that their opinion of him has changed, or has his status changed purely due to the Mets' panic?
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| Bret Sabermetric May 21 2006 10:01 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on May 21 2006 10:03 AM |
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JD, so you're saying (correct me if I'm wrong) that if he hadn't had visa problems, his pitching warranted promotion to the MLB roster out of ST this year? He was a better choice than Bannister or Heilman? has he been used in the minors so differently than he would have been as a 5th starter in MLB that "building up his arm strength" makes that kind of difference? Pedro began the season with his arm strength less than full, yet we didn;t send him down to AA to slowly build it up. Again, I'm just asking for some clarity.
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| Johnny Dickshot May 21 2006 10:01 AM |
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Repeat: He was in the minors so as to get his arm strength up.
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| Bret Sabermetric May 21 2006 10:06 AM |
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See above edited comments about Pedro's lack of work. I don't buy this bushwah about arm strength and layoffs. A fifth starter doesn't need much arm strength. Cf. his IP in the minors with the workload of an MLB 5th starter.
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| Johnny Dickshot May 21 2006 10:08 AM |
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Of course not. In fact, Soler wasn't even detained. He's not even Cuban!
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| KC May 21 2006 10:13 AM |
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If Soler was brought up and used too quickly and his arm fell off we could
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| Bret Sabermetric May 21 2006 10:13 AM |
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Pedro's toe prevented him from getting any real work in during ST, yet he managed to open the season on time with only minor restrictions. If Soler needed work in warm weather, then the Mets should have kept him in FLA. while Bannister worked the first few #5 starts. By the time Bannister got hurt, Soler should have been able to go at least 5 IP, which is all they wanted from Lima or Gonzales. The fact that they preferred not to promote Soler at that point, or even to imply that they were seriously considering the move, tells me that he's not ready in their opinion, and that they're panicking. Of course, given what they know, and don't know, about their players, this could work out fine anyway.
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| Johnny Dickshot May 21 2006 10:28 AM |
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Um, they did. Were you not paying attention?
You appear to be the ignorant one here, and guilty of the very same blindness you so frequently accuse others of. Had you, until 5 minutes ago, the first clue that Soler had had been tied up in visa problems? Did you have to ask thrice why he was down to start with? You're uninformed.
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| old original jb May 21 2006 10:48 AM |
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Pedro did start late, and besides that, Pedro has so many ways to get guys out that I'd take my chances with him at reduced arm strength. That's what makes him Pedro. You don't want to face him even when he's having a bad day. To me, that's what separates the truly great pitchers from the rest of the pack. We have no indication that Soler is in this league, so yes, he probably needed the extra time.
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| OlerudOwned May 21 2006 11:12 AM |
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Further confirmation
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| Bret Sabermetric May 21 2006 11:20 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on May 21 2006 11:26 AM |
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Are you just calling me names here? Yes, I'm uninformed and ignorant. I had no idea, or memory, of him having visa problems. That still doesn't change his status from a month ago, does it? They decided to keep him down in the minors to build up his arm strength--fine, I guess. But after Bannister went down, why not bring him up at that point? A month into the year, his arm stength couldn;t have still been at zero, could it? I'll bet if you look at what Soler was doing the day Bannister pulled his hamstring, he was pitching at least 50, 60, 70 pitches per game, no? So why couldn't he have come up at that point and continued building his arm strength at the MLB level? I submit that either the yammering about Soler ("we're not looking to promote anyone from the minors") was just deflective and misleading BS from the Mets' brass (which is a real possiblity, not to be discounted) and they have been seriously considering bringing him up by mid-May, or he has shown something at Bingo that's surprising to them over the past two weeks. But if he was just not ready yet a few weeks ago, and they're calling him "ready" today, this smells like a panic move to me.
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| KC May 21 2006 11:23 AM |
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You've mentioned panic a few times this morning like it's a bad thing. The
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| Hillbilly May 21 2006 11:27 AM |
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This is the move I thought (and hoped) we’d see. I got my fingers crossed for unrealistic expectations. There are also more arms that could contribute soon – Pelfrey and perhaps Owens. Owens might add the kind of quality depth that would allow Heilman to move into the rotation, like a lot of people are yearning for.
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| Bret Sabermetric May 21 2006 11:32 AM |
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"You've mentioned panic a few times this morning like it's a bad thing."--actually, I'm more positive about panic than anyone. The decisions this team makes with calm, rational forethoiught are so routinely disastrous, that I think the "panic" mode works out relatively well for them.
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| old original jb May 21 2006 11:36 AM |
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The difference between this version of the Mets and prior versions is that at least management actually knows when to panic.
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| Nymr83 May 21 2006 11:41 AM |
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Bret- the reason Soler started off in the minors is because he missed almost all of last year with visa problem, the guy had thrown something like 20 innings in the past 2 years since fleeing cuba, you dont take a guy after such a long layoff and bring him right up.
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| Rotblatt May 21 2006 11:48 AM |
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. . . and panic in the right way.
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| metsmarathon May 21 2006 12:47 PM |
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so i guess there's just no benefit whatsoever to having players actually perform, in game situations over a period of time, and use such performances as a basis for evaluation? major league baseball teams should simply look to what players do in practice, in winter league, in spring training, and in teh weight room, and base their evaluations solely upon such things, and should cement those opinions at the beginning of hte season never to be altered until the following offseason?
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| Johnny Dickshot May 21 2006 01:01 PM |
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Not calling names. Just pointing out what you didn;t know before you leaped to a conclusion. Which was quite a bit for someone with such a strong stance.
Soler was still in Class A at that point, enjoying the warmer weather and building arm strength.
Or they could instead have gone to a guy who was healthy and had proven he could get hitters out at a higher level. Oh wait, they did -- John Maine. And before you say anything, Maine was up and back before Soler was promoted to AA also.
Except that the evidence -- let me guess -- you weren't paying attention? -- indicates clearly they'd been looking at as many options as they could from the start, when they promoted Maine.
Of course they had. The schedule with Soler from the start was to get his arm strength up, see how it goes at a higher level then proceed from there. This shouldn't be a surprise to anyone not purposefully decieving themselves into thinking that a radio interview is akin to testimony under oath.
Or it could be this is the earliest moment they'd had in mind for him for him, give or take a start.
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| Bret Sabermetric May 21 2006 01:21 PM |
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No, I was paying some attention, thanks.
Well, this is the crux. I don't elevate BS to testimony under oath, quite the contrary, but here the BS-spin machine works quite otherwise. Isn't the idea to talk UP your minor league prospects so as to deceive your opponents into dealing for them? If I were Omar, that's what I'd be doing. "We're very happy with Soler, we think he may be able to pitch for us this season, and we're frantically trying to find a spot for him, because he's burning up the minor leagues. Yes sir, this kid's a sure shot Hall of Famer, it's just a shame we have our rotation filled to the rafters with quality pitching just now, and we have several terrific pitchers ahead of him, so this is a real problem for us, albeit a problem we love having...." Normally you do just that except where it plainly and hilariously IS NOT SO. That's the use I make of this BS spin machine: When even it is inadequate to the job, that should tell you that Soler is a desperation move. Like I say, I'm all for desperation moves, lots of them, because this team is far more desperate than even it knows. This is like looking in your empty wallet that you've looked into ten times already, hoping that there's a fifty in there that you haven't seen yet. You could get lucky, but you're talking about getting very lucky.
Could be. But I'd think I'd have heard a little more implications that "Soler looks good, we're just giving him a little time" kind of talk. As I say, if that's really the case, you;d tend to talk it UP, not down.
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