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Jorge Julio traded for El Duque

Bret Sabermetric May 24 2006 05:52 PM

Brilliant.

Centerfield May 24 2006 05:58 PM

Holy crap. Really?

Johnny Dickshot May 24 2006 05:59 PM

baffling.

Bret Sabermetric May 24 2006 06:00 PM

Yep. Chris and Mike just announced it on WFAN.

Centerfield May 24 2006 06:04 PM

That's amazing. I mean, not that El Duque is what he used to be, or even that good anymore for that matter, but Julio flat out stunk. I wonder if the D-Backs are interested in purchasing my broken VCR I've been meaning to throw away.

OlerudOwned May 24 2006 06:09 PM

Back problems just pushed back his last start. Great. At least he's better than Lima. But who knows, maybe being in NY will give him a good kick in the ass.

Centerfield May 24 2006 06:13 PM

Like I said, El Duque is no longer what he was, but considering who have been throwing out there, he is an improvement. And considering what he gave up for him, it's a great deal. I was resigned to an Odalis Perez or Chan Ho Park or some other cumbersome contract. El Duque only adds about $2 million to payroll. I still think we need a #3...but at least no more Jeremi Gonzalez.

OlerudOwned May 24 2006 06:15 PM

Centerfield wrote: Like I said, El Duque is no longer what he was, but considering who have been throwing out there, he is an improvement. And considering what he gave up for him, it's a great deal. I was resigned to an Odalis Perez or Chan Ho Park or some other cumbersome contract. El Duque only adds about $2 million to payroll. I still think we need a #3...but at least no more Jeremi Gonzalez. I'm not against the trade, not at all. I'm just petrified his back will give out after one start and we're back to square one.

sharpie May 24 2006 06:17 PM

Can he pitch tomorrow?

Bret Sabermetric May 24 2006 06:18 PM

OlerudOwned wrote: I'm just petrified his back will give out after one start and we're back to square one. Gotta roll the dice here, O.O.

Bret Sabermetric May 24 2006 06:19 PM

sharpie wrote: Can he pitch tomorrow? He can probably go 9 on back-to-back days. In December. When he's hurt.

Johnny Dickshot May 24 2006 06:31 PM

He's 40 years old and has a bad back. He's Randy Johnson extra lite.

OlerudOwned May 24 2006 06:32 PM

Johnny Dickshot wrote: He's 40 years old and has a bad back. He's Randy Johnson extra lite. Only 36, lets not roll the guy down the hill just yet EDIT: Nevermind. ESPN.com is full of lies. Lies!

Farmer Ted May 24 2006 06:39 PM

This may be a "Soler needed a Cuban mentor" thing. Nah. Just a weird trade.

metirish May 24 2006 06:41 PM

Jesus Christ, trade a 27 year old with a great arm for a 40 year old with a bad back.....

seawolf17 May 24 2006 06:42 PM

A "challenge" trade, maybe? I don't know if I like it or not.

ScarletKnight41 May 24 2006 06:46 PM

I never had a great deal of confidence in Julio, but I don't have much confidence in El Duque either. I find the timing funny, since I just finished Mike Lupica's book Heat, which featured a character who is unquestionably based on El Duque. Hopefully it's positive Karma.

PatchyFogg May 24 2006 07:45 PM

Now we get to read Yankees shills in the media writing about his fondness for the New York nightlife and how his eyes remain fixed across town.

abogdan May 24 2006 07:59 PM

Great deal. A potential third starter for the team's fourth or fifth best bullpen arm. No idea why Arizona would do this other than saving a couple of million. I don't love El Duque, but he's an upgrade from Gonzalez/Lima/et al. Hopefully moving to Shea will reduce his homers allowed.

Bret Sabermetric May 24 2006 08:08 PM

That's why it's briliant. Also because the guy is a innings eating machine, which this team needs like it needs oxygen. I think he had more complete games for Washington than the Mets own jockstraps.

OlerudOwned May 24 2006 08:09 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on May 24 2006 08:24 PM

Damn, I just realized how insane Hernandez's splits are. vs. RHB 25 IP, 17 H, 8 ER (2.88 ERA), 37 K, 12 BB vs. LHB 20.2 IP, 35 H, 23 ER (10.02 ERA), 15 K, 8 BB in Arizona (a hitters park) 0-3, 28.2 IP, 37 H, 26 ER (8.16 ERA), 31 K, 16 BB On the Road 2-1, 17 IP, 15 H, 5 ER (2.65 ERA), 21 K, 4 BB

seawolf17 May 24 2006 08:14 PM

Bret Sabermetric wrote: That's why it's briliant. Also because the guy is a innings eating machine, which this team needs like it needs oxygen. I think he had more complete games for Washington than the Mets own jockstraps. Wrong Hernandez. You're thinking of Livan.

Hillbilly May 24 2006 08:18 PM

This was done solely to prevent Heilman from starting. The Duke battery is coming to Shea. I didn’t see this one coming…

Bret Sabermetric May 24 2006 08:22 PM

seawolf17 wrote: ="Bret Sabermetric"]That's why it's briliant. Also because the guy is a innings eating machine, which this team needs like it needs oxygen. I think he had more complete games for Washington than the Mets own jockstraps. Wrong Hernandez. You're thinking of Livan. God damn it. Okay, maybe it's not so brilliant. Also, maybe I'm not so brilliant. God damn it.

Elster88 May 24 2006 08:28 PM

El Duque eats innings too, no? I figure if we're going to lose 10-5 on the fifth starter's day, let El Duque throw 180 pitches instead of letting Lima throw 75 and using the entire bullpen.

seawolf17 May 24 2006 08:31 PM

Elster88 wrote: El Duque eats innings too, no? I figure if we're going to lose 10-5 on the fifth starter's day, let El Duque throw 180 pitches instead of letting Lima throw 75 and using the entire bullpen. Hard to eat innings when you're giving up nine runs every time out.

Elster88 May 24 2006 08:36 PM

Well yeah.

seawolf17 May 24 2006 08:40 PM

I just realized this gives my fantasy team five Mets starters (Duque, Bannister, Zambrano, Soler, and Maine). Weird.

OlerudOwned May 24 2006 08:50 PM

seawolf17 wrote: I just realized this gives my fantasy team five Mets starters (Duque, Bannister, Zambrano, Soler, and Maine). Weird. I'd hope for your sake that Bannister, Zambo, and Maine arent on the active roster.

seawolf17 May 24 2006 08:53 PM

OlerudOwned wrote: ="seawolf17"]I just realized this gives my fantasy team five Mets starters (Duque, Bannister, Zambrano, Soler, and Maine). Weird. I'd hope for your sake that Bannister, Zambo, and Maine arent on the active roster. We have five DL spots, so yeah, they're just hanging out. I apologize for bringing fantasy stuff out of the Fantasy Forum.

Willets Point May 24 2006 08:59 PM

Ex-Yankees turn my stomach. Are we going to have to do the El Puque dance now?

MFS62 May 24 2006 09:07 PM

So, the off season trade actually works out to be: Kris & Anna Benson for El Duque & Maine & about $3.5 mil for 2006 and $8.0 mil for 2007. This gives them some additional financial flexibility come trading deadline. Later

Frayed Knot May 24 2006 10:40 PM

My initial inclination is that I don't like this deal. Listed at 36 but widely rumored to be 40, El Ducky has had some great stretches during his time here (almost all of it in the Bronx) but is also moody & high-maintenance who reportedly could be a pain to deal with in a complaining, prima-donna kind of way and was unavailable for various lengths of time. He did, however, (as much as I hate it being touted as a predictive factor) have a ton of "big game" success, first w/the MFYs and even with the ChiSox last year. Ozzie brought him in during the 1st round playoffs last October when the BoSox loaded the bases (against another pitcher) w/no one out. Ducky danced out of it w/o a ball leaving the infield and the Bostonians never recovered from it as they got their collective asses swept. Chicago dealt him over the winter for Javy Vazquez and I had pretty much lost track of him since then (Snakes have been totally off my radar screen) but those numbers look pretty ugly aside from the whole home/road split thing. I guess I kind of wanted to believe in Julio's "STUFF!!" even if it would have probably driven me nuts in the long run; or maybe I'm just reacting to the fact that something about Hernandez always rubbed me the wrong way and I always expected him to turn back into a pumpkin at any moment. But I suppose he could be useful either as a reg starter or a fill-in so long as his Clemente-like hypochondria gets put on hold for a while.

metirish May 24 2006 10:43 PM

What sucks for me is that Julio would seem the type of pitcher that Peterson would love to tutor, freat stuff and all that , I guess Omar really wanted a starter..I dunno.

RealityChuck May 24 2006 10:46 PM

The question is: Is Hernandes better than Gonzalez or Lima Bean? Probably. Julio is giving up a bit, but it will give Heath Bell a shot at the bullpen, so it's not that major a loss, and they have a veteran to pitch for now.

Nymr83 May 24 2006 11:18 PM

i like this trade, but only as long as it is an experiment. i never liked julio so i'm happy to get a guy who could potentially be decent in the rotation for him, but if hernandez stinks the mets need to cut bait with him. if the mets stick with him through more than 4 or 5 bad starts this will be a bad trade just for blocking heilman.

Gwreck May 24 2006 11:23 PM

Heilman's not being blocked. He's just too valuable in the bullpen, another shutout inning tonight. Everybody seems to forget that he really hasn't shown very much as a starter. The deal clearly has upside -- no more Lima, and if Soler pitches well, no more Gonzalez either. I think after the start on Thursday, Gonzalez is going to get sent down, with Bell taking Julio's spot in the bullpen. It'll be fine to cut bait with Hernandez because Maine and Bannister will be back after not too long -- but considering what's invested in him, I think he'll get quite a few chances.

Zvon May 24 2006 11:32 PM

Frayed Knot wrote: My initial inclination is that I don't like this deal. Ditto, and for all the reasons you've mentioned FK. We did need an inning eater so Ill give this the 'ol wait and see.

vtmet May 24 2006 11:39 PM

I wonder if part of the reason for El Duque is to help ease Alay Soler's nerves on his jump to the bigs... Looking at his righty/lefty splits, makes me wonder whether he'd be more valuable in the bullpen if Soler performs and Bannister makes it back...

smg58 May 24 2006 11:45 PM

It can't hurt, so I guess I'm for it. I'm making no promises on it turning out particularly well, though.

Frayed Knot May 25 2006 12:02 AM

"We did need an inning eater so Ill give this the 'ol wait and see." Except he's not really an innings eater, he's more of a high pitch count/take forever, always teetering on the edge of disaster/lucky to get 6 out of him even when he's good type of guy. Think of a cross between the worst aspects of Trax and what Bannister was early on. Ah hell, I suppose it won't be too bad. The downside is minimal and there could be some up if he locates his bouts of goodness. Just not a guy I'm looking forward to rooting for.

Rotblatt May 25 2006 12:03 AM

I don't like it. He's old and hasn't been good since 2004. The only upside is that Bell is now on the roster. Presumably, Gonzalez will be going down soon?

Edgy DC May 25 2006 12:08 AM

Maybe, but he'd have to be exposed to waivers.

Rotblatt May 25 2006 12:11 AM

Edgy DC wrote: Maybe, but he'd have to be exposed to waivers. Meh. I don't mind. I suppose we could send Bell down again but what use will Gonzalez be up here?

MFS62 May 25 2006 07:22 AM

When Joe Lewis was defending his Heavyweight boxing championship, they said his opponents were members of the Bum of the Month Club. I think Omar remembered that concept when trying to find a fourth and fifth starter. Oh well, let's see what this one can do. At least they dumped some salary by making this move. Later

Bret Sabermetric May 25 2006 07:32 AM

MFS62 wrote: they dumped some salary by making this move. Unless you start the move at Wiggy, in which case they lost considerable money over the last few years, and lost some talent to boot. I'm not sure if they save much if anything just on Julio for Duque. Doesn't Duque make more than Julio at this point? I'd think so. It's only a money saving move, if I'm correct about Julio's salary, if you start the clock with Benson, and I have no idea why you'd pick that point, being the least logical of the three to pick.

Rotblatt May 25 2006 07:55 AM

From [url=http://www.newsday.com/sports/printedition/ny-spwally254755963may25,0,5047564.column?coll=ny-sports-print]Newsday[/url]: ][bullshit about how Soler is nowhere near the kind of person or pitcher El Duque is] El Duque, by contrast, was fast-tracked to the major leagues. He stepped off the raft and into the rotation of the 1998 Yankees, a team that won 114 games, as if he had been doing it all his life. His October record - 9-3, 2.55 ERA - is better than that of any Yankee pitcher of the same era, and last year he repeated his postseason magic for the Chicago White Sox, entering a Division Series game against the Red Sox with the bases loaded, no one out and the tying run at third. Of course, nobody scored. These days, El Duque does it on guts and he does it on guile. His addition to the Mets would be an immediate upgrade even if the rotation weren't decimated by injury and failure. Soler, on the other hand, was the epitome of emergency starter, his rapid promotion necessitated by injuries to Maine and Brian Bannister and the ineffectiveness of Jose Lima and Jeremi Gonzalez. In baseball, they like to say "You can't walk off the island," but in the first inning, Soler pitched as if he planned to walk back. He walked his first three batters, allowed three runs and needed 30 pitches to record his first out. "Las mariposas" - the butterflies Soler had spoken of on Tuesday - were flying around his gut. But after Chris Woodward booted what could have been a double-play ball by Ryan Howard, allowing two runs to score, Soler suddenly settled down, first controlling his emotions, then his pitches. And in a very Duque-esque recovery, Soler shut down the Phillies over the next five innings. After the game, Soler, who speaks little English, was asked how he felt about having El Duque as a teammate. "Muy contento," he said. No translation necessary. Jesus fucking christ, I don't think I can survive the "He's AMAZING because he's a former YANKEE" bullshit for the next four months. The guy's been flat-out bad for two years now, and he's practically fucking guaranteed a spot in the rotation no matter what he does.

Rotblatt May 25 2006 08:11 AM

"El Duque" over the last two years: 174 IP, 5.38 ERA, 1.49 WHIP, 7.40 K/9, 3.62 BB/9, 2.04 K/BB, 1.34 HR/9 Benson over the same: 234.7 IP, 4.26 ERA, 1.28 WHIP, 4.83 K/9, 2.72 BB/9, 1.77 K/BB, 1.15 HR/9 Basically, Minaya completely fucked himself with these trades. Especially since Willie's going to give El Duque an inhuman about of rope to hang himself and our playoff chances in. Was it really so fucking hard to move Heilman into the rotation?

Edgy DC May 25 2006 08:16 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on May 25 2006 09:05 AM

There's a bad misuse of the "walk off the island" cliché there, also. ]These days, El Duque does it on guts and he does it on guile. Except when he doesn't do it at all, which has been with increasing frequency. Did Soler not exhibit some of those virtues in settling down and turning his start around? It's not altogether indicative after one game, but Soler currently has a 3.00 ERA. Hernandez is at 6.11.

86-Dreamer May 25 2006 08:25 AM

Matthews also states in that column that Soler had "some vaguely explained visa problems" - c'mon do a little bit of research please - there was nothing vague about Soler's inability to enter the U.S.

Elster88 May 25 2006 09:26 AM

We gave up nothing. We traded Julio at his peak value. Please don't lose sight of the fact that Julio has not had a good season since 2001.

Elster88 May 25 2006 09:26 AM

Rotblatt wrote: "El Duque" over the last two years: 174 IP, 5.38 ERA, 1.49 WHIP, 7.40 K/9, 3.62 BB/9, 2.04 K/BB, 1.34 HR/9 Benson over the same: 234.7 IP, 4.26 ERA, 1.28 WHIP, 4.83 K/9, 2.72 BB/9, 1.77 K/BB, 1.15 HR/9 Basically, Minaya completely fucked himself with these trades. Especially since Willie's going to give El Duque an inhuman about of rope to hang himself and our playoff chances in. Agreed.

Elster88 May 25 2006 09:27 AM

Dupe.

Johnny Dickshot May 25 2006 09:33 AM

I'm not all that jazzed about Hernandez myself, and saw Julio as, if nothing else, a cheap insurance policy in the event of an injury to another reliever. He was also pacing about 2 K's per inning, and it wasn't all that long ago I'd have killed all of you for a reliever of that ilk. Plus it makes the Benson fiasco all that more mysterious. I suspected from the start the whole Benson trade thingy was a gambit to effect a deal for an even better starter, and El Duque is hardly that. Not to say the $$ saved can't still go toward a real No. 2/3 down the road. Good luck to El Duque. Your No. 26 jersey will be waiting for you.

Willets Point May 25 2006 11:31 AM

You know if Omar is looking for a former Yankee pitchers in his 40's I know one who may be avaialable to sign as a free agent.

silverdsl May 25 2006 12:54 PM

Rotblatt wrote: He stepped off the raft and into the rotation of the 1998 Yankees, a team that won 114 games, as if he had been doing it all his life. Wasn't the raft story found to have been made up BS? It's been a while since I read the book on him so my memory might be faulty, but I thought he came here on a motorboat and they fudged the details so no one would get arrested for anything, not knowing that it would take on a life of it's own. El Duque is 9,000 years old in baseball years and has that back issue, but he does seem to pitch very well under pressure and in the spotlight. I wouldn't expect greatness from him at this point in his career, but I think it's possible that if his health stays good that he will be useful.

Willets Point May 25 2006 12:58 PM

How dare you question Yankees Myths and Legends? Do you wish to be stripped of your Yankee fan status? SC=100

Elster88 May 25 2006 04:08 PM

El Duque to pitch Sunday.

Vic Sage May 25 2006 04:38 PM

Julio for Bell = not much of a downgrade, if any at all. Duque for J.Gonzo = not much of an upgrade, if any at all. I actually think the impact of this trade will be negligible, in the short run, since I don't see El Duque being superior to Gonzalez at this point in their respective careers. I think they're both just short-term place holders for the #5 slot in the rotation, until Bannister gets back. But what about the #4 slot? We still don't have a SPer to replace Zambrano, unless we're convinced that Soler is a long term solution. I'm all for giving him enough of a shot to establish himself, but we're going to be in a pennant race and we can't stay too long with duque or soler if they're not getting it done. And metaphysics aside, i don't credit El Duque as beling more useful in "big games" at this point in his career, due to age, physical condition and the consequent overall deterioration in his play. #4 - El Duque / Bannister / Gonzalez #5 - Soler / El Duque / Bannister / Gonzalez / Maine / Oliver these are our choices? but Heilman still isn't a consideration? fukk.

Frayed Knot May 25 2006 04:51 PM

So - following that scintillating performance - Gonzalez has been DFA'd, presumably to make room for O. Hernandez. I guess Bell gets to stay a while to play the role of Jorge Julio.

Vic Sage May 25 2006 04:56 PM

so its el duque and soler, until Bannister gets back. Not that Bannister is any great shakes, but if Soler is doing the job and Ducky isn't, and if WWSB keeps running Ducky out there at that point (assuming the Duckinator continues to pitch like the broken-down 40 year old he is), then it'll be willy pulling the Cairo thing all over again. I don't think any of them is as good as Heilman is at this point.

Johnny Dickshot May 25 2006 05:12 PM

] fukk I like that spelling. I think we as an internet overdo Suxx, and F'in, and Fu(k and a$$, but it's rare to see 'fukk' Excellent job.

Vic Sage May 25 2006 05:24 PM

it was a typo...

metirish May 26 2006 11:29 AM

Olny on the trade from ESPN insider. ] The best possible situation you can have with Orlando Hernandez at this stage in his career, a high-ranking American League executive said last night, is when you don't have to count on him. "The White Sox played it exactly right last year," the exec said, "because they brought him along and he was kind of the extra guy in the rotation -- they didn't absolutely need him to win. They went into the postseason, and he wasn't filling a crucial role; he was just another guy on their pitching staff. And then, in the playoff series against Boston, they brought him [in] when it wasn't make or break, and he was tremendous." The Arizona Diamondbacks wanted to use him in a non-pressure support role -- the fifth starter, a spot which is sometimes skipped, especially when your ace is Cy Young candidate Brandon Webb -- and El Duque was unhappy. So it came to pass that the Diamondbacks, a team in need of starting pitching, dealt a starting pitcher to the New York Mets for reliever Jorge Julio. I like this trade for the Diamondbacks a lot, because they get a guy who throws 96 mph and can slot him into middle relief, a place where he could thrive; there aren't many guys throwing the sixth or seventh inning firing at 96 mph. Julio was getting better for the Mets, as his April/May splits show. Now you can look for Arizona to promote Dustin Nippert or Enrique Gonzalez -- whose minor league numbers are good -- into their big league rotation in place of El Duque. And I like this trade for the Mets if they find a way to not have to rely on El Duque. He is actually 40 years old going on 41 in October (not 36, as the press guides would have you believe), and so far this year, he has thrown 45.2 innings in nine starts. Five innings per start. If that average holds, then Hernandez will leave 12 outs on the table for the Mets' bullpen, which has borne an incredible workload this year, between all the extra-inning games and the struggles of the No. 4 and No. 5 starters. Going into Wednesday's afternoon action, four Mets relievers ranked among the top 15 in all of baseball for total pitches thrown -- and now one of them, Julio, has been traded. The Mets need to think of Hernandez as their No. 5 starter and be prepared for the strong possibility he will get hurt. They need to develop other options at No. 4 and No. 5. If Alay Soler throws the way he did last night, they'll be fine -- after walking the bases loaded in the first inning, with 15 of his first 22 pitches thrown for balls, he threw 54 of his last 80 pitches for strikes and looked good. Brian Bannister will come back at some point, and Mets general manager Omar Minaya will continue to monitor the trade market. The Mets must somehow find a way to reduce the pressure on Duaner Sanchez, Aaron Heilman and Billy Wagner, who have started this season like marathoners going out a little too fast. They can't keep up this workload pace without facing the possibility of August and September burnout. There will be issues with El Duque: He gets hurt a lot, he is temperamental and he is high-maintenance. But if the Mets make the playoffs and face a big moment in October, there is nobody stronger mentally than Hernandez. But we are going to rely on El Duque...at least for a while.

Vic Sage May 26 2006 11:35 AM

i'm so glad Ducky is mentally strong. Maybe he can develop his psi powers, so then he can WILL the ball to home plate after his arm has fallen totally off. Julio has more upside than Bell, and Ducky boy gives us nothing more than we'd get from the recently released Jeremi gonzalez. i don't hate the trade, but i don't seeing it helping us much.

ABG May 26 2006 11:36 AM

The best situation to have a player in is one where you have better players than him already? Thanks.

Edgy DC May 26 2006 11:36 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on May 26 2006 11:38 AM

The best situation for anybody is to not have to rely on them too much. (On edit: Bart beat me.) But to suggest that Hernandez thrives in that situation... Well, the Sox downgraded his role last year, and he came through for them, and the Diamondbacks (he points out) didn't have much to ask of him this year, and he didn't come through. We'll see. (Further edit: Gonzalez wasn't quite released. Just DFA'd. We may retain him yet.)

Johnny Dickshot May 26 2006 11:37 AM

If he's so strong mentally you'd figure hee'd bee better everyday. Prolly more accurate, if that's true, to say he's "mentally weak enough to give his best effort only where there's something riding on the outcome."

metirish May 26 2006 11:42 AM

] The Mets must somehow find a way to reduce the pressure on Duaner Sanchez, Aaron Heilman and Billy Wagner, who have started this season like marathoners going out a little too fast. They can't keep up this workload pace without facing the possibility of August and September burnout. Olny is right about that though and with Feliciano getting more inings and Willims probably coming soon I think the Mets are doing just that.

Vic Sage May 26 2006 11:48 AM

i have an idea for reducing the burden on Heilman... put him in the fukking rotation you assclowns! you win by giving your GOOD pitchers more IPs than your NOT GOOD pitchers. I know it seems complicated, but my degree in rocket science gives me the confidence to make this categorical assertion!

Bret Sabermetric May 26 2006 11:57 AM

Vic Sage wrote: i have an idea for reducing the burden on Heilman... put him in the fukking rotation you assclowns! you win by giving your GOOD pitchers more IPs than your NOT GOOD pitchers. I know it seems complicated, but my degree in rocket science gives me the confidence to make this categorical assertion! I agree with Vic wholeheartedly. OE: Admins: Since he called the Mets "assclowns" first, and implied that they and anyone who who supports their Heilman decision is kinda stoopid first, does that mean this won't get sent to the RLF? If my presence alone means RLF banishment, I withdraw my agreement--Vic is TOTALLY WRONG!!!-- and please delete post. Thank you. Don't mean to create a ruckus, or disturb anyone, or, you know, say anything.

Vic Sage May 26 2006 12:35 PM

disclaimer: My "assclowns" comment was directed at Mets management, not anybody here. We're allowed (i think) to cuss out non-Forumites on baseball-related matters... especially when its a cuss popularized on the CPF to begin with. And i did not say, imply or think loudly that anybody HERE who disagrees with me on this issue is stoopid, or even stupid. Just WWSB and Omar... :)