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Being Jerry Koosman

Willets Point Jun 01 2006 08:00 AM

And not being Yancy Street Gang. (More later, I've got to be elsewhere right now).

Benjamin Grimm Jun 01 2006 08:57 AM

Hey, you pulled ahead of me! I guess that's what happens when I stay away for two weeks.

Willets Point Jun 01 2006 09:27 AM

We'll be Koosmen together soon. So Jerry Koosman is another Met before my time. I always thought he was underappreciated standing in the shadow of Seaver, so its good he's ranked the #3 Met of all time to give him some props. I find it interesting that he finished second in Cy Young Award voting in 1976 to Randy Jones, mainly because I have no frickin' clue who Randy Jones is (especially since he eventually became a Met too). Of course the cool trivia is that Koosman was on the mound for the final out of the 1969 World Series. He was trade for Jesse Orosco who was on the mound for the final out of the 1986 World Series. I think there's some more interesting trivia in the trade chain too, but that's Dickshot's territory.

Benjamin Grimm Jun 01 2006 09:34 AM

I always liked Jerry Koosman. And I'm glad he's hanging in there in the UMDB Top Twenty lookups. I think he's the best of the most likely to be forgotten Mets. I remember 1976, and Randy Jones was one of the most untouchable pitchers in baseball that year. There was no chance that anyone but him would win the Cy Young award. I don't think Jerry belongs in Cooperstown, but he deserved more consideration than he got. I don't think Don Sutton was all that better than Koosman, and he's in. (Although he shouldn't be.)

dinosaur jesus Jun 01 2006 09:50 AM

I remember 1976 too, and Jerry got screwed. He came on strong in the last half of the season, but I think everyone had already assumed that Jones would get the award. I think another consideration was that Jones had had a strong season the year before but had lost out to Seaver (who of course deserved it).

Elster88 Jun 01 2006 09:58 AM

Sup. Haven't seen you 'round these parts in a while.

Edgy DC Jun 01 2006 10:03 AM

I'm not saying he's a Hall of Famer either, but I imagine that showing how Seaver and Koosman match up against their peers in a run-support neutral envirnoment would blow your mind, sweep it up, stuff it back into your head, and then blow it again.

Edgy DC Jun 01 2006 10:14 AM

As it is, a quick addition shows that Seaver and Koosman won at least 307 games together --- probably one to three more, depending on how Seaver did during Koos's brief time on the roster in 1967. That probably stacks up well with any post-war pairing, offense or no offense. Koosman had won five games at the point of Seaver's departure on June 15, 1977 (and Kingman's also, it should be said), but notched only three more wins during the remaining three and a half months of the season, and three total during his disastrous 1978 campaign.

Johnny Dickshot Jun 01 2006 10:44 AM

My Mom's favorite Met. What else needs to be said?

seawolf17 Jun 01 2006 10:46 AM

[young seawolf] An old man who pitches for the Twins and White Sox and Phillies. Apparently he was a Met once. [/young seawolf]

Frayed Knot Jun 01 2006 11:20 AM

Kooz defintinely suffered from Seaver-shadow a couple of times. He lost the '68 ROY one year after Seaver won it. Now losing to Johnny Bench is no disgrace but I always wondered how many writers said; 'aw, we gave it to a Met pitcher last year' In '75, Randy Jones - who had 3 speeds: slow, slower, slowest - lost the CY to Seaver when some thought that the difference in their twos reps played a part. So then in '76, Jones gets out to a 16-1 (or something like that) start *by the All-Star Break* and is the talk of baseball as visions of a 30-game winner dance through folks' heads. He then had a very mediocre 2nd half as Koosman "caught up" and maybe surpassed him but the die was already cast and the vote wasn't particularly close. And again, it seemed a bit like; Jones loses out to Seaver so let's not out-Met him again this year

Benjamin Grimm Jun 01 2006 11:48 AM

Does anyone know how many HOF votes Jerry got? I'd be curious to see a comparison of his and Don Sutton's stats and their Hall of Fame votes.

A Boy Named Seo Jun 01 2006 12:00 PM

It looks like Koosman only got [url=http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/history/hof_voting/alpha/K.htm]4 votes (0.90%)[/url] in 1991 and was dropped form the ballot. Sutton started out with 259 votes in his first eligible year, and got in with [url=http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/history/hof_voting/alpha/S.htm]386 votes (81.61%)[/url] in his fifth year.

Edgy DC Jun 01 2006 12:04 PM

1991 Total ballots cast: 443 Necessary for election: 333 Name Votes PCT Rod Carew 401 90.52 Gaylord Perry 342 77.20 Fergie Jenkins 334 75.40 Rollie Fingers 291 65.69 Jim Bunning 282 63.66 Orlando Cepeda 192 43.34 Tony Oliva 160 36.12 Bill Mazeroski 142 32.05 Ron Santo 116 26.19 Harvey Kuenn 100 22.57 Jim Kaat 62 14.00 Maury Wills 61 13.77 Dick Allen 59 13.32 Ken Boyer 58 13.09 Joe Torre 41 9.26 Bobby Bonds 39 8.80 Minnie Minoso 38 8.58 Mickey Lolich 33 7.45 Luis Tiant 32 7.22 Vada Pinson 30 6.77 Thurman Munson 28 6.32 Rusty Staub 28 6.32 Curt Flood 23 5.19 Al Oliver 19 4.29 Sparky Lyle 15 3.39 Larry Bowa 11 2.48 Jerry Koosman 4 0.90 Jeff Burroughs 1 0.23 Mike Hargrove 1 0.23 Richie Hebner 1 0.23 Burt Hooton 1 0.23 Mike Jorgensen 1 0.23 John Lowenstein 1 0.23 Ellis Valentine 1 0.23 Bob Bailor 0 0.00 Al Bumbry 0 0.00 Rich Dauer 0 0.00 Oscar Gamble 0 0.00 Larry Gura 0 0.00 Art Howe 0 0.00 Bruce Kison 0 0.00 Steve Rogers 0 0.00 John Wathan 0 0.00 Pat Zachry 0 0.00 Geoff Zahn 0 0.00

Benjamin Grimm Jun 01 2006 12:08 PM

No way does Sutton deserve 65 times as many votes as Koosman. Sutton's numbers are sexier, and he has a better Hall of Fame case. But Koosman deserved more than 4 votes. He won 324 and lost 256 with 3,574 strikeouts. Career ERA of 3.26. He pitched from 1966 through 1988. Koosman was 222 and 209, with 2,556 strikeouts. Career ERA of 3.36. Pitched from 1967 through 1985.

Edgy DC Jun 01 2006 12:25 PM

Maybe, but arguing that he wouldn't get your vote, but he deserved more votes than he got, is a tough one to sustain. If you agree with the ultimate result, what matter whether he got four votes or 40? The Hall of Fame is a Pass/Fail class.

dinosaur jesus Jun 01 2006 12:28 PM

I think Koosman was as good as quite a number of Hall of Fame pitchers, and with a little better luck in the teams he played for--or just reasonable run support in 1977 and 1978--he might have been a candidate. But those are the breaks. There are a lot of guys you could say that about. I don't know if Sutton was actually a better pitcher, but 100 wins is a huge difference. It makes him an obvious Hall of Famer. And for Koosman, 13 games over .500 for his career just won't do it. So it's not that Sutton deserved 65 times more votes, it's that the dividing line clearly runs somewhere between them. There are some other guys on that list that deserved a lot more respect than they got, like Tony Oliva.

Benjamin Grimm Jun 01 2006 12:29 PM

I know. It is a bit of a conundrum. I guess I can best explain it by saying that Hall of Fame voters have had lower standards than I have, and more of these people with lower standards should have seen that Jerry met their lower standards. Or, in other words, it's a respect thang, yo.

Elster88 Jun 01 2006 12:30 PM

How do they fill out the ballot? My guess would be a player needs a certain amount of service time. And how many years after retirment before a player is eligible?

Edgy DC Jun 01 2006 12:34 PM

Ten years minimum service and five years after playing your last game. Some minor exceptions are out there, but that's the drill.

Elster88 Jun 01 2006 12:43 PM

How many ten-and-five rules exist in baseball?

Willets Point Jun 01 2006 12:54 PM

Not to sound arrogant (I mean I am great, but this is props to you all as well) but I really enjoy the discusions my "Being..." threads engender.

Benjamin Grimm Jun 01 2006 12:57 PM

Only two more to go, though. Unless you're planning on "Being Joan Payson"

Willets Point Jun 01 2006 01:05 PM

When I pass Seaver I want to be this guy for a while: And then a flying toaster.

Edgy DC Jun 01 2006 01:11 PM

That's a totally do-able metadesignation! Unless somebody beats you there.

Benjamin Grimm Jun 01 2006 02:38 PM

I'm going to post a couple of thousand alphabet posts just so I can regain my lead over Willets! It'll be something like this: A! B! C!

Zvon Jun 01 2006 04:23 PM

Ive always been a big Kooz fan. Never took him for granted. When we had Koosman and Seaver, no matter what shape the team was in, there were two games a week worth going to.