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BLC: Led Zeppelin - v- The Who

soupcan Jul 28 2006 09:18 AM

Black Dog Immigrant Song Misty Mountain Hop Stairway To Heaven Whole Lotta Love Rock n Roll Good Times Bad Times Boogie With Stu Houses Of The Holy Heartbreaker I'm pretty sure they can all be sampled[url=http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000002IWP/sr=1-9/qid=1154092550/ref=sr_1_9/103-0493390-0972653?ie=UTF8&s=music] here[/url]

sharpie Jul 28 2006 09:22 AM

Led Zeppelin hasn't won a contest since it lost to The Who so it is ineligable to re-challenge.

soupcan Jul 28 2006 09:28 AM

Whaddya mean? The only band Zep can challenge is The Who. They can't challenge anyone above the Who because they lost to them. There's no reason to challenge a band below them. You telling me that in order for Zep to get a rematch with The Who, they have to be challenged by another band that's either below them or not yet in the contest and beat them? That's dumb.

sharpie Jul 28 2006 09:30 AM

Thems been the rules since the beginning. Yeah, Led Zep is blocked until either they win a challenge or the Who move up the ladder.

Elster88 Jul 28 2006 09:39 AM

I agree with soupcan. I thought you could rechallenge when your spot came back up.

soupcan Jul 28 2006 09:45 AM

sharpie wrote: Thems been the rules since the beginning. Yeah, Led Zep is blocked until either they win a challenge or the Who move up the ladder. Okay fine if thats the rule, but in this instance its stoopid. In effect, Zep is blocked until somebody challenges them. Was this considered when the rule was instituted?

sharpie Jul 28 2006 09:49 AM

I didn't make up the rule but I do agree with it. We'd otherwise be revoting over and over again. There's lots of blocked bands on the list. Recently REM was unblocked when Elvis Costello & the Attractions beat Tom Petty which I suppose meant that Dickshot would on some level been rooting for Elvis.

sharpie Jul 28 2006 09:53 AM

Note that on the Standings list, when a band is right below another band it now says "eligible for rematch with...". The Police, for example, are eligible for a rematch with Nick Cave.

soupcan Jul 28 2006 09:56 AM

Whatever. Okay, I'll sit on my ass with Zep and put something else up later today. Booooooo!

Johnny Dickshot Jul 28 2006 10:03 AM

This rule is silly. While some bands will find their range on the ladder and ought not challenge up so aggressively anywhoo -- that's pretty much where things were following the REM-Elvis matchup anyway -- I say if Soupy wants a rematch, and nobody's managed to put any distance between Zep & the Who over an entire rotation, he should get it, especially if he learned from the first defeat and adjusted his strategy. Maybe we could require that the lineup has significant changes as I'm sure Soupy's does anyway, rather than say relying on turnout or whatever. Who would deny Led Zep their stairway to heaven?

soupcan Jul 28 2006 10:23 AM

="Johnny Dickshot"]...I say if Soupy wants a rematch, and nobody's managed to put any distance between Zep & the Who over an entire rotation, he should get it, especially if he learned from the first defeat and adjusted his strategy. Maybe we could require that the lineup has significant changes as I'm sure Soupy's does anyway, rather than say relying on turnout or whatever. Who would deny Led Zep their stairway to heaven? Thanks for the support JD. 'Significant' change though would have to be defined. I added 2 songs that I hadn't used in any prior challenge and stuck with what appear to be the Zep songs that most 'Poolers seem to like - notwithstanding 'Boogie With Stu' because I like it even if most peeps don't.

sharpie Jul 28 2006 10:48 AM

I think it should be 10 new songs OR you wait til you win a challenge OR the band above you moves up. This gives the advantage to the band with the deeper catalog but it would be kind of fun to vote on songs 11-20.

Edgy DC Jul 28 2006 11:43 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 28 2006 12:36 PM

I nominated the rule in the first place, because I wanted the challenges to have gravity and I thought that could well be lost when one willy-nilly kept throwing rematches at somebody until they cracked, largely because peeps got sick of voting in the same contest and attrition eventually worked in your favor. Now, with competitors having to wait weeks for a turn, that may do enough to curb such abuse. I do like the notion of the rematch challenger having to choose 10 new songs. But the rule wasn't nominated for arbitrary reasons. But a reality of such a truth-seeking system is bands are going to start settling into their place. Truth is sometimes fluid, but it evolves toward solidity. ]Who would deny Led Zep their stairway to heaven? The Who, last I checked. Somebody will challenge Zep and lose. Heck, I will.

cooby Jul 28 2006 11:46 AM

Yeah, but the bad part is, in order to get any action at all we have to use groups like Granny's Knickers who don't have any business even sniffing at a spot on the top 100 groups.

Elster88 Jul 28 2006 11:58 AM

]I do like the notion of the rematch challenger having to choose 10 new songs. Ouch. For many bands, their top ten songs are out of a pool of only 10-15 that could possibly be winners. It could also lower voting when more people don't recognize more obscure songs. Obviously this isn't true for the Beatles for example, but I think this rule is unfair. Maybe change up one or two as a rule, but all ten isn't do-able, IMHO.

soupcan Jul 28 2006 12:05 PM

3-4 new songs may be a bit more fair.

sharpie Jul 28 2006 12:06 PM

It would be tough for most bands but I think Soupcan could come up with a good list of 10 new Zep songs and Lenny a list of 10 new Who songs that most people would know.

soupcan Jul 28 2006 12:20 PM

Lenny shouldn't have to change his lineup. Sure Zep could grab 10 new songs but if its going to be a rule you have to make it the same for everyone and as Elster said most bands couldn't do that. Besides the fact that the challenging band would lose all or most of its A-team lineup.

Edgy DC Jul 28 2006 12:37 PM

Lenny won. Why handicap him?

sharpie Jul 31 2006 09:16 AM

Thinking about this over the weekend (and spoke to Lenny as well). If no one ever challenges Led Zep and the Who never move up then Led Zep would never have a chance to challenge again. That isn't fair. So, I think new songs is fair. I know that of the bands I manage that have been in a number of outings (Doors, Attractions, Clash, Talking Heads) I regularly have about 15 or 16 songs that I cycle through 'cause I get bored putting up the same list as the time before.

Edgy DC Jul 31 2006 09:21 AM

But, while this rule may indeed be unnecessary, someone will eventually challenge Zep.

sharpie Jul 31 2006 09:24 AM

Probably, yes, but maybe not. Soupcan's other band, the Police, have, I think, never been challenged. We all look for soft targets in the part of the list that we think our band should be in. While U2 and They Might Be Giants have challenged Led Zep, they are obviously a tough target and are way high up on the list.

HahnSolo Jul 31 2006 12:17 PM

The Police just finished off a challenge from Squeeze in a rather one-sided affair. I should know. I made the challenge.

Willets Point Jul 31 2006 12:23 PM

Can you challenge down? For instance could the Rolling Stones challenge Led Zep?

soupcan Jul 31 2006 12:26 PM

Why would they?

Edgy DC Jul 31 2006 12:27 PM

I guess, but the risk/reward ratio is skewed. As I said, I'm willing to let go of the "you must earn a rematch" standard, since the "you must wait your turn" standard has served to curb willy-nilly challenges. Should we vote on it?

Willets Point Jul 31 2006 12:27 PM

To get a win and rechallenge Springsteen.

sharpie Jul 31 2006 12:49 PM

Using the "must change 5 songs" rule would work for Stones vs. Springsteen since the Some Girls list for the Stones was pretty bad. I think we want to avoid a situation where we are constantly re-voting on the same 2 bands, hence the 5 song rule. Who beat Zep, Zep challenge Who, Who re-challenge Zep etc.

soupcan Jul 31 2006 01:13 PM

I'm agreeable to the '5 song rule'.

cooby Jul 31 2006 02:34 PM

What would happen if somebody challenged Led Zeppelin and Led Zeppelin won? Would the lid then come off?

Edgy DC Jul 31 2006 03:01 PM

That's the way it works.

cooby Jul 31 2006 04:08 PM

So that's all it would take? The Cowsills could challenge Led Zep, Led Zep would win (assuming of course, that they would) and then they would be free to challenge anyone?

Edgy DC Jul 31 2006 04:16 PM

Well, they'd be free to go back after the band the band that marks their ceiling.

Johnny Dickshot Jul 31 2006 05:05 PM

sharpie wrote: Using the "must change 5 songs" rule would work for Stones vs. Springsteen since the Some Girls list for the Stones was pretty bad. I think we want to avoid a situation where we are constantly re-voting on the same 2 bands, hence the 5 song rule. Who beat Zep, Zep challenge Who, Who re-challenge Zep etc. 5 songs is a hell of handicap considering some contests could turn on a simple re-jiggering of the very same lineup. One song could do it I don't see the harm in allowing at least one re-match when a band loses a close one and gets stuck behind the band that beat 'em because they haven't managed to budge. Did they even try?

sharpie Jul 31 2006 05:39 PM

The Who beat Led Zep Lenny's last time at the plate.