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Wild-speculation/brain storm number to be retired on 8/19

SteveJRogers Aug 09 2006 09:13 PM

Just noticed that #17 has not been issued as of yet this season, last to have it was Dae Sung Koo last year... I know Mex made some comments, but I assume they were in jest as he has been working with the Mets off-and-on for a while now and seen a bunch of players suit up in his #17 And #8 has been kept out of circulation since Desi Relaford in 2001 #8 actually is listed for roving Catching Instructor Gary Carter but that generally never has stopped big clubs from doubling up for instructors and special Spring Training Instructors Hmmmm. Big Anniversary tribute on August 19th... Hmmmm... Like I said, this is just idle speculation on my part

Yancy Street Gang Aug 09 2006 09:18 PM

Lima wore it this year.

KC Aug 09 2006 09:22 PM

Steve, I'm growing to love you - but we ain't there yet. You title a thread about wild speculation and end it that it's idle. >>>Wild-speculation/brain storm this is just idle speculation<<<

cooby Aug 09 2006 09:23 PM

-8- I wondered when they'd finally get around to retiring Carlos's number

SteveJRogers Aug 09 2006 09:37 PM

Yancy Street Gang wrote: Lima wore it this year. Right! I tried to block Lima's apperances this year out of my mind...

soupcan Aug 10 2006 09:24 AM

17 I don't think so, but maybe you've hit on something with 8. Carter's in the HOF now so its definitly plausible. That'd be cool.

Johnny Dickshot Aug 10 2006 09:31 AM

They're not going to be able to do 8 without also doing 17, so I think they'd either do both or neither. I think Hernandez has the stronger case for retirement, HOF notwithstanding, but as often argued here I wish they wouldn't and instead issue his number more carefully in the future. They each ought to be in the Mets HoF, in the event they aren';t. I really have no idea

SteveJRogers Aug 10 2006 09:34 AM

Johnny Dickshot wrote: They're not going to be able to do 8 without also doing 17, so I think they'd either do both or neither. I think Hernandez has the stronger case for retirement, HOF notwithstanding, but as often argued here I wish they wouldn't and instead issue his number more carefully in the future. They each ought to be in the Mets HoF, in the event they aren';t. I really have no idea They've both are long since in the Mets HoF

Johnny Dickshot Aug 10 2006 09:43 AM

Well there ya go. They've been honored. To honor them more, make the Met HoF a bigger deal. But don;t go around taking numbers out of circulation. It's stupid.

sharpie Aug 10 2006 09:45 AM

I agree with Johnny. It's such a MFY thing to do.

RealityChuck Aug 10 2006 09:48 AM

I don't mind retiring numbers, but I think you need to do it judiciously. I'd rather consider retiring numbers that get associated with a player who's with the team longer than Hernandez and Carter. Number 5, maybe (eventually), for instance.

Edgy DC Aug 10 2006 09:49 AM

Ya Gotta Retire Duffy Dyer! Why Don'tcha Enshrine Ellis Valentine?!

soupcan Aug 10 2006 09:57 AM

I don't have anything against retiring numbers if its deserved. The Yankees of course have gotten ridiculous with it. When I saw Kevin Maas had a plaque out there I realized that. I read that there are definitive requirements that must be met for the Red Sox to retire a number. Among them is that player must be in the Hall of Fame - not the Red Sox HoF, the real National Baseball Hall of Fame. The player also had to have played with the Sox for a certain number of years as well. I like that idea.

metirish Aug 10 2006 10:06 AM

You're joking about Kevin Mass,right?, he played 4 seasons and a total of 384 games for them....how could they retire his number? http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/maaske01.shtml

soupcan Aug 10 2006 10:09 AM

Well, I never actually seen it, but I'm sure he's got one out there. Doesn't everyone who ever played for them get one?

SteveJRogers Aug 10 2006 10:14 AM

metirish wrote: You're joking about Kevin Mass,right?, he played 4 seasons and a total of 384 games for them....how could they retire his number? http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/maaske01.shtml Yup. He was. Roger Maris, Thurman Munson, Billy Martin, Allie Reynolds, Ron Guidry and Elston Howard are the non-HOF players members in Monument Park. Jacob Ruppert, Bob Sheppard, two plaques commemorating Papal vists and a 9/11 memorial monument are the others representing non-HOFers Case COULD be made for Maris, Munson and especially Martin though being in Cooperstown Note, Ed Barrow is in Monument Park, not George M. Weiss who is in the Mets HOF (Barrow is the only GM the Yanks found it neccessary to honor, no doubt George will join Ruppert as owners in there some day)

Elster88 Aug 10 2006 10:29 AM

metirish wrote: You're joking about Kevin Mass,right?, he played 4 seasons and a total of 384 games for them....how could they retire his number? http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/maaske01.shtml They didn't retire his number, they just gave him a plaque.

metirish Aug 10 2006 10:32 AM

] They didn't retire his number, they just gave him a plaque. Ahh thanks for the info,still giving him a plaque seems silly.

Elster88 Aug 10 2006 10:33 AM

Yup.

ABG Aug 10 2006 10:40 AM

8/19 is likely to be a sellout. Whatever day they retire Carter's number is likely to be a sellout. Thus, they will be two days, not one.

Frayed Knot Aug 10 2006 10:41 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Aug 10 2006 10:45 AM

I've mentioned on more than a few occasions on these and other airwaves that, while I'm not totally against retiring numbers, I'd err on the side of retiring fewer numbers rather than too many. In this case I'd be against mothballing both #17 & #8. I'd consider #31 (about a decade or so from now) as at least Piazza will satisfy two criteria which should be strongly considered in every case: 1) HoF member 2) majority of career as a Met Having both isn't an absolute requirement ... but it would certainly help. Carter gts #1 but isn't even close to #2. Mex doesn't cover either. Piazza will likely have both (may fall a wee bit short on 2 if he plays a few more years) - although it wouldn't kill me if they kept that one in circulation too. And, btw, it should have NOTHING to do with what "he goes into the HoF as" -- something I consider to be one of the dumber arguments of recent years. He's a NYM (and Dodgeer) HoFer no matter what insignia is on his hat/plaque. I'm spending absolutely zero energy on worrying about that eternal question even though it's twisting some Met fans into knots (maybe even frayed knots?) for years already.

soupcan Aug 10 2006 10:41 AM

ABG wrote: 8/19 is likely to be a sellout. Whatever day they retire Carter's number is likely to be a sellout. Thus, they will be two days, not one. Good point.

Elster88 Aug 10 2006 10:47 AM

I look at it from a personal level, too. Piazza had a huge impact on my baseball fandom....and will never be replaced. Being in the crowd for his last game as a Met and first coming back on another team showed me that a helluva a lot of peeps feel the same way. The "never be replaced" includes if the Mets run a guy through their farm system who is the best position player ever to wear a Met jersey, who says all the right things, who challenges for an MVP in his second year, and plays his entire career as a Met.....probably because even though Mike didn't do those things, his Met career was right in that period of my life where sports mattered the most. And he brought me out of the hell that was "being a Met fan in the mid-nineties". So for me, retire the number. If no one else wears it in Queens I'll be just fine.

Vic Sage Aug 10 2006 11:23 AM

Mike Piazza was drafted by the Dodgers, as a result of his personal ties to Dodger icon Tommy Lasorda; he played in the Dodgers minor-league system for 4 years; he came up and was a Dodger ROY; he had his best seasons as a Dodger; he was an all-star MVP as a dodger; and he played for the Dodgers for parts of 7 seasons, including 2 post-seasons. While I enjoyed him as a player for the Mets, and i know he had an impact on the franchise, i still don't think a few hundred more ABs as a Met changes the fact that he's a Dodger HOFer. Maybe if we'd won the WS in 2000, that could've tipped the scales. But we didn't, and so it doesn't. We should not be retiring the number of yet ANOTHER Dodger great (including Gil Hodges and Jackie Robinson).

ScarletKnight41 Aug 10 2006 11:27 AM

My speculation isn't that a number will be retired but, rather, a member of the 1986 Mets will be placed in the Mets HOF. Perhaps Davey Johnson.

SteveJRogers Aug 10 2006 11:31 AM

Vic Sage wrote: Mike Piazza was drafted by the Dodgers, as a result of his personal ties to Dodger icon Tommy Lasorda; he played in the Dodgers minor-league system for 4 years; he came up and was a Dodger ROY; he had his best seasons as a Dodger; he was an all-star MVP as a dodger; and he played for the Dodgers for parts of 7 seasons, including 2 post-seasons. While I enjoyed him as a player for the Mets, and i know he had an impact on the franchise, i still don't think a few hundred more ABs as a Met changes the fact that he's a Dodger HOFer. Maybe if we'd won the WS in 2000, that could've tipped the scales. But we didn't, and so it doesn't. We should not be retiring the number of yet ANOTHER Dodger great (including Gil Hodges and Jackie Robinson). Excellent points! I love this agrument you can make about not retiring #8 and Carter not being a Met in Cooperstown: Gary Carter spent more time as an Expo than Tom Seaver did as a Met Tom Seaver spent more time as a Red than Gary Carter did as a Met Note, the Expos retired #8 for Carter, and Seaver was voted (by fans and media combo I believe) into the Reds HOF, the opposite of course is true for Seaver and Carter, #41 retired and Carter is in the Mets HOF I agree, I can see putting Piazza in the Mets HOF, but retiring 31 probably would be a bit much. Sure it did turn around the franchise, but I'm sure if you polled baseball fans across the country more neutral (neither Dodger or Met fan) would probably associate Piazza as a Dodger than as a Met. Like more fans associate Carter as an Expo or Seaver as a Met. Retiring 8 and/or 31 does seem like something that would open floodgates that shouldn't be opened.

Yancy Street Gang Aug 10 2006 11:31 AM

I wouldn't retire Piazza's number. He was with the Mets for eight years, and for the last four of them he was in decline. So four great years, and two playoff appearances? Not enough to get his number on the wall. And not Hernandez and Carter either. Carter was only with the Mets for five seasons, and the last two were subpar. Keith helped put the Mets back on the map more than Piazza did, but I still think he falls short. Let's talk about Wright and Reyes fifteen years from now. Until then, there are no numbers that need to be retired.

Edgy DC Aug 10 2006 11:42 AM

The discussion should really be centered around the Mets Hall of Fame, which has been gathering way too much dust, and which has room that is far less finite than the retired number list.

ABG Aug 10 2006 11:43 AM

Retire his number. Stop being killjoys. No one cares about a team's hall of fame.

Yancy Street Gang Aug 10 2006 11:51 AM

I don't think he deserves it. You're right that few people care about the team's Hall of Fame. Maybe they can address that, though. Have an actual Hall of Fame display in the new ballpark that fans can get to. (The one at Shea is inaccessible and nobody knows where it is.) Make it prominent and people will care.

soupcan Aug 10 2006 11:54 AM

I know where it is.

SteveJRogers Aug 10 2006 12:02 PM

="Yancy Street Gang"]I don't think he deserves it. You're right that few people care about the team's Hall of Fame. Maybe they can address that, though. Have an actual Hall of Fame display in the new ballpark that fans can get to. (The one at Shea is inaccessible and nobody knows where it is.) Make it prominent and people will care. Not really, anyone can hang in the lobby, you don't need a Diamond Club ticket or anything

Gwreck Aug 10 2006 12:10 PM

When Piazza goes to the Hall of Fame, his number should be retired. No question. There should be no debate on this one: Hall of Famers who had a significant portion of their accomplishments with the club get their number retired. Maybe you could argue "significant" for Piazza, but I doubt it. For Gary Carter, sure.

Yancy Street Gang Aug 10 2006 01:08 PM

Clearly, though, there is debate on this one. I think retired numbers should be extremely rare. Even more rare than Hall-of-Fame inductions.

metirish Aug 10 2006 01:15 PM

Are retired numbers unique to American sports, in Europe it's not done IIRC, for instance Manchester United just issiued #16 to Michael Carrick who they signed last week from Spurs for 16 million sterling, #16 used to be Roy Keane's number who played for the club for 12 years and is among the most popular players to ever play for the club,infact it's seen as an honor in football to be given certain numbers, like #11 for a winger and so on.

HahnSolo Aug 10 2006 01:30 PM

I knew there was a Met Hall of Fame, but I did not know you could visit it at Shea. I don't know about Hernandez or Carter, but I'd retire Piazza's number (maybe the first year of the new ballpark?). I want some retired numbers of people I can look back fondly on their Met careers. Right now of the four retired #s, 2 are managers and one was never a Met.

Frayed Knot Aug 10 2006 01:42 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Aug 10 2006 01:47 PM

="metirish"]Are retired numbers unique to American sports Probably. If so I suspect it started with Ruth, as much for the fact that he was dying as for his status. Numbers weren't even used in baseball until half way through his career so it would be tough to find one much earlier. Of course the Yanx DID issue #3 to others between his retirement and the number retirement, just not since. on edit: although maybe they retired Gehrig's #4 first since he died 10 years earlier than Ruth ]infact it's seen as an honor in football to be given certain numbers, like #11 for a winger and so on. And that honor is what I think fans are missing in their rush to retire every number that they recall fondly. Like Dickshot's site says; the line of numbers form their own bit of history. Solo's argument that says (in a sense): 'I want to retire some numbers ... so that there'll be some retired numbers up there' misses the point also IMO. There's also a contingent of Met fans who want to start a conga line of numbers so we "can catch up to" the Yanquis ... and I don't even think I need to tell you what I think of that argument.

SteveJRogers Aug 10 2006 01:44 PM

Well does it really matter Were you going to tell the Red Sox to retire another uni just to break up the 9 4 1 8 karma (the 1918 World Series clincher date was 9/4/18that was hanging on Fenway untill 27 was retired? Eventually they did it in numerical order 1 4 9 8, but if a team has a strict policy, the policy should stand regardless of fan opinion

Edgy DC Aug 10 2006 01:53 PM

We've been down this road before a dozen times. Obviously there are arguments both ways. But most agree that retirement should be done reservedly and with gravity, and the best argument for it is in cases when a feller dies with his boots on, or otherwise tragically young. I think there's a place for it. But continuity around a number is beautiful also. It's just... well I'll let Steve say it. I was born and raised here this town's my town Everybody knows my name But ever since the glass plant closed down Things round here ain't never been the same I got me a good job alright but some nights Take me to another time Back when I was number 29 I was pretty good then don't you know watch him go Buddy I could really fly Everyone in town came, hip flasks, horn blasts Any autumn Friday night Sally yelled her heart out push em back, way back I was hers and she was mine Back when I was number 29 We were playin' Smithville big boys, farm boys Second down and four to go Bubba brought the play --- in good call, my ball Now they're gonna see a show But Bubba let his man go I cut back, heard it crack It still hurts me, but I don't mind Reminds me I was number 29 Now I go to the ballgames cold nights, half pints Friday nights, I'm always here We got a pretty good team, good boys, strong boys District champs the last three years Got a little tailback pretty slick, real quick I take him for a steak sometimes Nowadys he's number 29 I don't follow rainbows, big dreams, brass rings I've already captured mine Back when I was number 29 I thought they should have retired #7 for Ed Kranepool, and was doubly put out that they re-assigned it so quickly to Hubie Brooks, but there's something to be said for Old Ed taking Jose Reyes out for the odd steak now and then too.

Willets Point Aug 10 2006 01:56 PM

Here's a Wikipedia article on number retirement. Seems to be catching on in Europe now. Gehrig was the first retired number. I personally think retirement should have as much to do with what the player meant to the team as the player's career numbers. That combo of personality and performance is a rare occurence.