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Mets get Shawn Green

Centerfield Aug 22 2006 04:25 PM

Pending approval from Bud. Story: http://newyork.mets.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060822&content_id=1623233&vkey=news_nym&fext=.jsp&c_id=nym

MFS62 Aug 22 2006 04:29 PM

So much for John Heyman's "scoop". Thanks, Later

ABG Aug 22 2006 04:32 PM

MFS62 wrote: So much for John Heyman's "scoop". Thanks, Later I woulda rather had Alou, which isn't to say I'm disappointed we got Green.

ScarletKnight41 Aug 22 2006 04:33 PM

Take that Mel Gibson!

MFS62 Aug 22 2006 04:36 PM

ScarletKnight41 wrote: Take that Mel Gibson! Ding! Ding! Ding! A winnnnahhhh! Missy Scarlett, please report to the front desk to claim your prize. Later

OlerudOwned Aug 22 2006 04:41 PM

"a Minor Leaguer" Ooh, suspense.

MFS62 Aug 22 2006 04:45 PM

OlerudOwned wrote: "a Minor Leaguer" Ooh, suspense. I would hope that means one who is not on the 40 man roster. Later

ScarletKnight41 Aug 22 2006 04:48 PM

MFS62 wrote: ="ScarletKnight41"]Take that Mel Gibson! Ding! Ding! Ding! A winnnnahhhh! Missy Scarlett, please report to the front desk to claim your prize. Later I'd have to give the prize to Denis Leary - I was riffing off of his Youkilis rant frm last week.

MFS62 Aug 22 2006 04:52 PM

He can afford to buy his own prize. You get it for posting the right words at the right time. Don't be modest. Go for it, tateleh! Later

cleonjones11 Aug 22 2006 04:58 PM

Ah Shawnie just in time for the holidays!

MFS62 Aug 22 2006 06:38 PM

For Evan MacLane http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2557946 Later

OlerudOwned Aug 22 2006 06:45 PM

I wanted to see MacLane pitch. Oh well.

Benjamin Grimm Aug 22 2006 06:55 PM

Pumpsie, Charlie, Dallas, and Shawn are your four Green(e) Mets.

MFS62 Aug 22 2006 06:58 PM

I'm still trying to forget Dallas, as a pitcher and a manager. Thanks a lot. Later

Zvon Aug 22 2006 07:00 PM

I just heard. Zippideedodaday!

Edgy DC Aug 22 2006 07:07 PM

Evan MacLane it is.

metirish Aug 22 2006 07:09 PM

Victor Diaz DFA to make room for Green...WOW

SI Metman Aug 22 2006 07:20 PM

I said it would cost me my first born when I got my invoice for playoff tickets today. I guess the Mets took that literally.

Frayed Knot Aug 22 2006 07:26 PM

Well, let's figure that Green is owed something on the order of $13.5mil - $9.5 for next year - $2m buyout for the following (highly doubt he's getting the '08 option picked up) - plus maybe $2mil for the remainder of this year If Zona picks up anywhere near half that amount then it's a reasonably good investment for us even if he doesn't discover the fountain of youth. That it makes our outfield very LH-heavy: Cliff, Tucker, Endy, Ledee and now Green it's a bit surprising that Diaz is being released as opposed to jettisoning one of the recent pickups. I admit that I didn't think of Alou until I heard it mentioned a few days ago. He's righthanded and a better hitter than Green and isn't on the hook for next year. On the other hand, he's a lousy fielder and baserunner at this point.

TransMonk Aug 22 2006 07:32 PM

I like Shawn Green. Great move. Almost makes up for Nady. Green's always been one of the guys I've admired from opposing clubs.

Frayed Knot Aug 22 2006 07:36 PM

Def a good player ... just not so much anymore. Maybe a change of scenery does him some good.

Zvon Aug 22 2006 07:38 PM

TransMonk wrote: ....Almost makes up for Nady. I was thinkin the same thing---almost. cuz he can help at 1B between Delgado and Mr Franco as well as the outfield. I also have to say Im suprised about Diaz.

SteveJRogers Aug 22 2006 08:10 PM

metirish wrote: Victor Diaz DFA to make room for Green...WOW So much for the poor man's ManRam!

Gwreck Aug 22 2006 09:24 PM

Just in case you were wondering, Yom Kippur falls on the Monday between the end of the regular season and the start of the playoffs.

Benjamin Grimm Aug 23 2006 04:19 AM

Very convenient.

seawolf17 Aug 23 2006 04:28 AM

Gwreck wrote: Just in case you were wondering, Yom Kippur falls on the Monday between the end of the regular season and the start of the playoffs. Actually, I was. My computer was off during the game last night when they made the announcement, but I was going to look it up this morning. :) I don't see how this hurts us. I would have figured him to displace Ledee (and he still might, because they need room on the 25-man, not just the 40), but Diaz was a waste anyway.

Benjamin Grimm Aug 23 2006 04:36 AM

I was thinking the same thing. Green will probably keep Ledee off the playoff roster. Or, on the other hand, maybe it's Milledge whose spot is in jeopardy.

MFS62 Aug 23 2006 04:45 AM

Yancy Street Gang wrote: Or, on the other hand, maybe it's Milledge whose spot is in jeopardy. I'd guess that Lastings stays. With the addition of Green as most likely a regular, Lastings is the only pure righty hitting outfielder. I don't count Woodward as an outfielder, even though he could play there once in a while. Later

Hillbilly Aug 23 2006 06:40 AM

I understand this move, but was hoping it wouldn't happen. The need was certainly clear. I was hoping it wouldn't happen largely because I think it puts Cliff on the outside in 2007 and I think Green's better days are long gone. But that remains to be seen and hopefully I don't know what I'm talking about. Oh well lets hope Green cathes fire with his new club. Welcome aboard!

Benjamin Grimm Aug 23 2006 06:51 AM

I don't think there's going to be a Cliff Floyd with the Mets in 2007, no matter what happens. When Nady was first traded I thought it might mean a return for Floyd, but I don't think that's the case any more. I have a feeling the Mets will shop around for a new outfielder this winter. I suspect they'll be talking to Soriano.

metirish Aug 23 2006 07:00 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Aug 23 2006 07:12 AM

So should Milledge learn to play LF now? Somew numbers on Green ]Since July 20, Green is batting .194, and his average has decreased rapidly since he hit .374 in May. He batted .265 in June, .250 in July and .208 in August Lets hope the change will do him good. http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/23/sports/baseball/23mets.html?_r=1&ref=sports&oref=slogin

seawolf17 Aug 23 2006 07:11 AM

metirish wrote: So should Milledge learn to play LF now? Or he should start trying on other team's jerseys,

Johnny Dickshot Aug 23 2006 07:13 AM

I know thet were pretty heavy with the denials, but I suppose this spotlights Cliff's injury and the team's hedging whether he can really come back from it all right, and perform into October. Achilles tendonitis can take months to go away, and Cliff on his other foot eventually required surgery. So in that sense I see this as a necessary manuver and we'll deal with the aftermath in November.

metirish Aug 23 2006 07:15 AM

Some more numbers on the trade. ] In exchange for Green, the Mets sent the minor-league left-hander Evan MacLane to the Diamondbacks. The Mets will also receive $6.3 million to offset the $13.25 million Green is owed over the rest of his contract. The Mets will pay Green $1.75 million for the remainder of this season, and he is scheduled to receive $9.5 million next season with a $10 million club option for 2008 or a $2 million buyout.

KC Aug 23 2006 07:48 AM

I was hoping for another black player to replace Cliff ... sheesh

MFS62 Aug 23 2006 07:58 AM

KC wrote: I was hoping for another black player to replace Cliff ... sheesh Wassamatta'. You don't like Green ones? Later

seawolf17 Aug 23 2006 08:01 AM

KC wrote: I was hoping for another black player to replace Cliff ... sheesh It's just because Omar is mindlessly pandering to the white Jewish population of New York.

Centerfield Aug 23 2006 08:05 AM

According to Jon Heyman, the Mets are still interested in Alou. Maybe Cliff is hurt more than we think. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/baseball/mlb/08/22/mets.green/index.html?section=si_mlb

MFS62 Aug 23 2006 08:05 AM

So, KC would prefer Omar pander to the Black Jewish population of New York? LOL! Later

Johnny Dickshot Aug 23 2006 08:19 AM

Heyman's way behind the times. The Internet reported the Mets had Alou two years ago.

MFS62 Aug 23 2006 08:22 AM

CF, I posted this yesterday. http://cybermessageboard.ehost.com/getalife/viewtopic.php?t=4397 Later

Rotblatt Aug 23 2006 08:31 AM

Green's really been struggling since the All-Star Break, hardly hitting for any power. Hopefully the change will do him good, but I'm not counting on him being any better than Chavez. Still, he definitely upgrades our bench and I'm not sold on MacLane, so I don't mind this deal.

Centerfield Aug 23 2006 12:38 PM

Any word on whether Green will be in uniform tonight?

Benjamin Grimm Aug 23 2006 12:39 PM

I think he's expected on Thursday.

Edgy DC Aug 23 2006 12:53 PM

What crap. Back when I was a kid, Joel Youngboold would start an afternoon game, get traded, and play in a night game for his new team. OK, so it's never happened since, but back when I was a kid, you could expect a man to be a man and a new employee to be punctual. At least once, you could.

Centerfield Aug 23 2006 01:06 PM

That does seem like it's a little late. Arizona isn't that far away.

metirish Aug 23 2006 01:08 PM

I think Green was in San Fran when he got the news,you'd think Wilpon would send his private jet to get him.

Benjamin Grimm Aug 23 2006 01:10 PM

Isn't a player allowed something like 72 hours to report after a trade? The eager ones arrive quickly. The reluctant ones take 72 hours. Maybe Shawn had to stop at home to water his plants or something.

Vic Sage Aug 23 2006 02:48 PM

Have there been any other Jewish Mets (besides Shamsky)? Shamsky Green ?

Johnny Dickshot Aug 23 2006 02:54 PM

Mookie Wilstein

ScarletKnight41 Aug 23 2006 02:57 PM

Vic Sage wrote: Have there been any other Jewish Mets (besides Shamsky)? Shamsky Green ? [url=http://faithandfear.blogharbor.com/blog/_archives/2006/8/22/2255661.html]Greg says there have been six Jewish Mets -[/url] ]For the record, there have been six Jewish Mets to date. Joe Ginsberg was the first. Art Shamsky was the best. Dave Roberts, 'til now, was the last. They are joined by Norm Sherry, Greg Goossen and Elliott Maddox.

Benjamin Grimm Aug 23 2006 03:02 PM

What about Elio Chacon?

ScarletKnight41 Aug 23 2006 03:34 PM

Yancy Street Gang wrote: What about Elio Chacon? [url]www.jewishmajorleaguers.org[/url] doesn't list him.

SteveJRogers Aug 23 2006 03:44 PM

ScarletKnight41 wrote: ="Yancy Street Gang"]What about Elio Chacon? [url]www.jewishmajorleaguers.org[/url] doesn't list him. That was based on UMDB Chacon memories of people thinking Chacon's name was Cohen [url]http://www.ultimatemets.com/profile.php?PlayerCode=0038&tabno=7[/url] ]david December 24, 2002 My then 70-something grandmother used to listen to Mets games on the radio and thought that the announcers were talking about Eliosha Cohen - nice Jewish boy from the island(s) ]jmb February 10, 2005 Back in the Mets initial season my late father told me the Mets had a Jewish player by the name of Cohen. I went to check out their roster to locate a Cohen. I came back and asked him what is first name was. He told me Eliosha, Eliosha Cohen!

ScarletKnight41 Aug 23 2006 03:46 PM

Ah - gotcha. I figured there was something behind the question, but I didn't remember the anecdote.

Johnny Dickshot Aug 23 2006 06:35 PM

whoosh

KC Aug 23 2006 06:50 PM

I still say hoping a team gets a player, or being happy because the player is here based on race, religion, and/or ethnicity is nonsense. Play ball.

duan Aug 24 2006 04:43 AM

I know Green's looking a little past it the last 3 months, but before that on NO other season has he not been more productive then Nady has this season. Even with the relative power outage that he's had since 2003 his eqa's have been .287, 279, .280 whereas Nady's been .274. I'm also looking at a lineup that potentially has Reyes (SW) LoDuca (RH)) Beltran (SW) Delgado (LH) Wright (RH) Floyd (LH) Valentin (SW) Green (LH) in the playoffs - when Shawn Green's your number 8 hitter you're in good shape with power and 'reasonable' discipline throughout the lineup. You'll also chew through bullpens.

Iubitul Aug 24 2006 06:54 AM

KC wrote: I still say hoping a team gets a player, or being happy because the player is here based on race, religion, and/or ethnicity is nonsense. Play ball. Thank you. I've been looking for the right way to say this the last few days - thanks for putting it better than I could.

MFS62 Aug 24 2006 07:17 AM

Yep, KC nailed it. That kind of stuff makes for nice "human interest" stories, but it shouldn't matter once the player gets between the foul lines. As long as the player contributes to winning, it shouldn't matter if he throws goat entrails during a full moon. And if he's that good, and a druid, I'd even plant him a tree. Later

metsmarathon Aug 24 2006 07:49 AM

if we had druids on the team, they could help with building the new stadium... or decorating the old parking lot with big giant stones. how cool would that be?

Benjamin Grimm Aug 24 2006 07:53 AM

And yet none of us were pleased when we thought that David Wright might be a disciple of the liquid feces guy.

Edgy DC Aug 24 2006 07:56 AM

No one knows who they were. Or what... they were doing. But their legacy remains... hewn... into the living rock... of Stonehenge. Green excited to play for Jewish fans New Met says that's one reason he waived no-trade clause Updated: 9:15 p.m. ET Aug 23, 2006 NEW YORK - Shawn Green is looking forward to playing in front of the large population of Jewish fans in New York. Traded Tuesday to the Mets by the Arizona Diamondbacks, the outfielder planned to be at Shea Stadium on Thursday for New York’s series finale against St. Louis. The Mets haven’t had a prominent Jewish player since Art Shamsky in the late 1960s and early 1970s. “I’m excited about it. It’s something that has always intrigued me,” Green said Wednesday during a conference call. “Playing in L.A., there’s obviously a large population there, but New York is head and shoulders the largest in the country.” New York’s Jewish population was about 1.75 million in the 2000 census, followed by Miami at roughly 535,000 and Los Angeles at approximately 490,000. In 2004, Green sat out a pennant race game for the Los Angeles Dodgers in observance of Kol Nidre, the start of Yom Kippur, the Jewish Day of Atonement. He played the following day while Yom Kippur was concluding. In 2001, he observed Yom Kippur and ended a streak of 415 consecutive games played. “It’s definitely something that will be an interesting experience for me, a fun experience,” Green said of coming to New York. “I’m looking forward to being a part of the Jewish community there.” Arizona dealt the 33-year-old Green to New York along with $6,312,156 for Evan MacLane, a 23-year-old left-hander at Triple-A. Green has $13,248,634 remaining on his contract. A two-time All-Star, Green is hitting .283 with 11 home runs and 51 RBIs. He waived his no-trade clause to accept the trade. “I just talked about it a lot with my wife, and we both felt like there’s a lot of positives coming there,” Green said during the conference call from the Phoenix area. “We both enjoyed coming to New York the times I’ve played there for a few days.” He figures to cut into the playing time of Lastings Milledge and Ricky Ledee in right. Endy Chavez has filled in as the left fielder while Cliff Floyd is sidelined with an Achilles’ tendon injury. Green said watching the Mets earlier this season, he concluded New York had “this intangible.” He has played previously with several Mets, including Carlos Delgado, Orlando Hernandez, Paul Lo Duca, Guillermo Mota, Duaner Sanchez and Chris Woodward. “They have this quiet confidence and have fun and energy,” he said. “You see that in teams that go far into the playoffs and win world championships. I think a lot of people in baseball have been looking at the Mets as a team that has that characteristic.” He said the possible trade, which had been rumored for weeks, had weighed on him. “In my gut I guess I thought it was going to happen,” he said. “But it was seeming like at any time it could fall apart. Especially with some of the pitching injuries that the Mets had, I assumed that I wouldn’t be as high on the priority list at that point, but fortunately it sounds like both Pedro (Martinez) and (Tom) Glavine are in good shape.” © 2006 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

Centerfield Aug 24 2006 07:57 AM

="KC"]I still say hoping a team gets a player, or being happy because the player is here based on race, religion, and/or ethnicity is nonsense. Play ball. Viewpoints like this are easy when players of your particular race, religion or ethnicity are a dime a dozen. There will always be a white protestant player on the Mets. There always has been. For minorities, having someone represent your race/religion/ethnicity on your baseball team is significant. He can be a positive image to contrast some of the more negative stereotypes floating around about a particular group. He can also be a tremendous role model to young kids. A young Jewish kid can look at Shawn Green and dream of making the major leagues. Now, you might ask, why couldn't that kid look at Carlos Beltran, or David Wright? Sure he could. And he does, but there are tons of ignorant folks out there that tell him he won't make it because he's Jewish. And Jews are supposed to be lawyers, not ballplayers. These are the same folks that still think blacks aren't smart enough to play quarterback, or that Asians don't play sports. (One of my brother's coaches once confessed to me that he never thought he'd see the day his number 3 hitter was a chinese [sic] kid.) And that's why you root for Shawn Green, or Donovan McNabb, or Ichiro Suzuki. And if one of these guys ends up on your team, it makes it just a bit more special. Of course, as a fan, I always want the player that will help my team the most...whatever color he may be. But I also hope some Korean American kid comes up and hits 40 dingers for the Mets someday. Then maybe my son won't have to hear some of the things I did.

MFS62 Aug 24 2006 08:07 AM

Nicely put, CF. Thanks. Later

Edgy DC Aug 24 2006 08:09 AM

You're clearly of mixed feelings on this one.

duan Aug 24 2006 08:13 AM

while this is a nice debate and one which I understand, I'd really, really like to talk about the lineup.

Benjamin Grimm Aug 24 2006 08:16 AM

Hey! How about that lineup?

Edgy DC Aug 24 2006 08:16 AM

I think Green's probably going to initially slot in comfortably to Cliff's spot, sixth in the lineup. Michael Tucker behind David Wright has been illy ill.

Benjamin Grimm Aug 24 2006 08:19 AM

It'll probably be a few hours before we find out what roster move the Mets make to accomodate Green. And don't they also have to activate a pitcher to fill in for Glavine's next start? I think the handwriting's on the wall for Ricky Ledee. Or does Milledge go to Norfolk instead? Who would we rather have on the playoff roster? Ledee or Milledge?

seawolf17 Aug 24 2006 08:19 AM

For some reason, I don't think we'll see Floyd back this year. And I'm okay with that; I like Endy Chavez in the eight-spot.

Benjamin Grimm Aug 24 2006 08:20 AM

I'd prefer to go into the playoffs with Floyd than without him.

seawolf17 Aug 24 2006 08:21 AM

Yancy Street Gang wrote: Who would we rather have on the playoff roster? Ledee or Milledge? Milledge. I don't think Ledee gives you anything that you don't already have with Michael Tucker, and I'd rather Tucker than Ledee.

seawolf17 Aug 24 2006 08:21 AM

Yancy Street Gang wrote: I'd prefer to go into the playoffs with Floyd than without him. I'm not saying I don't want Floyd in the lineup, but I'm saying I'd rather have a healthy Chavez in the lineup than a limping, ineffective Floyd.

Johnny Dickshot Aug 24 2006 08:23 AM

Ledee just don't got it: I think he's outtahere. I'd be very surprised if Green hits anywhere but 6th, though he might be cool in No. 2 on Lo Duca's offdays. I think it'd be cool to play Milledge and Chavie as a platoon in left: Milledge could use the Xperience and I think he should be a member of the PS roster, if only to have as a wild-card World Series DH.

KC Aug 24 2006 08:23 AM

I'm not equipped for a debate on ethnic pride, I'd only make an ass out of myself. I just find it a little annoying that if presented with a list of let's say three players and someone says, "I want player X, we need a nice jewish boy on the team" - my reaction is that's just plain silly. Maybe I've already made an ass out of myself, but it's not like ya'll don't know I gotta be me.

MFS62 Aug 24 2006 08:29 AM

Edgy DC wrote: You're clearly of mixed feelings on this one. What's the mix? I stated a few posts ago that I agreed with KC that this stuff doesn't matter between the lines. I was complimenting CF on a well written description of his feelings about the other side of the issue. Yes, when I was a kid and rooted for Brooklyn, I looked with pride at Sandy Koufax. And probably for at least some of the reasons CF mentioned. And I guess I still take notice of Jewish ballplayers for some of those reasons. But race/religion/whatever is certainly not the reason I want my GM making player acquisition decisions. Maybe watching Joe Guinsberg on the 1962 Mets proved that to me. KC's right, you shouldn't let those things interfere with the game on the field. Later

Centerfield Aug 24 2006 08:29 AM

Of course that is silly. But I don't think anyone here is guilty of that. I think they see that Green is a good, useful player who also happens to be Jewish. And they see the last part as an added bonus, not the impetus for trading for him. And KC, we know you're not an ass. Avatar notwithstanding.

metirish Aug 24 2006 08:34 AM

Damn I feel a great sence of pride that Pete Flynn is from Ireland,imagine how I'd feel if the Mets had a player from Ireland on the team......

Benjamin Grimm Aug 24 2006 08:45 AM

I know what you mean. I hope that some day the Mets will have a player who was born in Brooklyn like I was.

MFS62 Aug 24 2006 08:51 AM

Yancy Street Gang wrote: I know what you mean. I hope that some day the Mets will have a player who was born in Brooklyn like I was. Either you forgot Paul LoDuca or you forgot your SC rating. Later

Benjamin Grimm Aug 24 2006 08:52 AM

I don't do SC ratings.

ScarletKnight41 Aug 24 2006 08:52 AM

Centerfield wrote: Of course that is silly. But I don't think anyone here is guilty of that. I think they see that Green is a good, useful player who also happens to be Jewish. And they see the last part as an added bonus, not the impetus for trading for him. And KC, we know you're not an ass. Avatar notwithstanding. CF - as usual, you stated what I wanted to say, but much more eloquently. Thank you. Aside from the fact that Green is Jewish is the fact that he actually honors his religion by refraining from playing on Yom Kippor. This may not mean a lot to most people, but when you're raising Jewish kids in this society, it's a big thing. When you have a kid who wants to go bike riding with friends on the Day of Atonement and you can cite an example of someone whom they admire refraining from things like that, it helps tremendously.

Iubitul Aug 24 2006 08:55 AM

I'm still waiting for the first Italian-English-German/American, who was born in a town along the CT coast to a firefighter father so I can have someone to identify with...

seawolf17 Aug 24 2006 08:56 AM

It's doofy, but I loved it when Pete Harnisch became a Met. He grew up a quick five-minute bike ride from my house. I never met him (he's got a lot of years on me), but that hometown thing meant a lot to me as a kid. It's the same kind of reason I love Jim Rice; we share a birthday.

Benjamin Grimm Aug 24 2006 08:58 AM

I share a birthday with Bob Hope, and I liked that he had a celebrity-studded special on NBC every year on my birthday. Not that I ever watched those shows, though. He doesn't do them anymore because he's dead at the present time.

ScarletKnight41 Aug 24 2006 08:59 AM

And MK grew up rooting for Al Leiter because he was a lefthanded pitcher from New Jersey. Commonality gives us something additional to pull for. Not all Mets are created equal (e.g. no amount of commonality would ever get me to root for Mike Stanton).

Vic Sage Aug 24 2006 09:04 AM

]I'm still waiting for the first Italian-English-German/American, who was born in a town along the CT coast to a firefighter father so I can have someone to identify with... and if one came along, you'd be his fan for life. I liked Lee Mazzilli out of proportion to his ability, because he played in the Gil Hodges Little Leage (in Coney Island) and went to Lincoln HS (like my brothers). I like Stephon Marbury for the same reasons. And now I'll like Shawn Green. In a society where the joke "what's the thinnest book in the word? The book of Jewish sports heroes!" is still floating around, a little counter-example is always a nice thing for my kids to see.

Centerfield Aug 24 2006 09:04 AM

Iubitul wrote: I'm still waiting for the first Italian-English-German/American, who was born in a town along the CT coast to a firefighter father so I can have someone to identify with... Of course, there are very few negative stereotypes about Italian-English-German/Americans, who were born in a town along the CT coast to a firefighter father (none that I am aware of). And therefore, it is very rare for an ignorant person to tell an Italian-English-German/American kid, who was born in a town along the CT coast to a firefighter father, that they cannot play ball. Thereby eliminating any need for said kid to cite a successful Italian-English-German/American ballplayer, who was born in a town along the CT coast to a firefighter father, in order to refute the ignorant claims.

TheOldMole Aug 24 2006 09:12 AM

No ballplayer of note was born on my birthday, and I refuse to get excited about Chien-Ming Wang.

Edgy DC Aug 24 2006 09:14 AM

Obviously, some cultural identifiers are more relevant than others.

Frayed Knot Aug 24 2006 09:14 AM

So these two Italian-English-German/American fire fighters from coastal Conneticut walk into a bar ...

ScarletKnight41 Aug 24 2006 09:18 AM

CF - your posts in this thread reminded me of [url=http://cybermessageboard.ehost.com/getalife/viewtopic.php?t=1024]this[/url]. I always loved how you tied in Jae Seo's performance to the birth of your son.

MFS62 Aug 24 2006 09:23 AM

Ex-Twin Rick Reese and current Met (I haven't checked the transaction wire lately) Heath Bell share my birthday. A little more about the "community" comments. Last night one of the announcers said that "Staten Island's own Jason Marquis will be pitching for the Cards tomorrow". My mind flashed back to the early days of the Mets. When the Mets would be playing the Braves in the next series at the Polo Grounds, the announcers would always say something like "coming to town are the Braves, with Hank Fischer from Yonkers". They said it so often that someone would have thought that Yonkers was his last name. In my mind, to someone from Yonkers, to whom those things were important, they would know that. Anyone else didn't give a flying rat's rectum about it. Do they actually think that would increase attendance? C'mon. Those Braves had three future Hall of Famers. Hank Fischer? Gimme a break. (I'll climb down off my soap box now) Later

Iubitul Aug 24 2006 09:25 AM

Frayed Knot wrote: So these two Italian-English-German/American fire fighters from coastal Conneticut walk into a bar ... LOL - stop! That one's hysterical! I don't know - maybe I'm just naive, but I've never given a rat's ass about anyone's ethnicity, or religion, or whatever. ]The book of Jewish sports heroes!" is still floating around, a little counter-example is always a nice thing for my kids to see. I understand that. Green, by all accounts is someone to look up to, and I am glad to have him on the team (I would have preferred a RH bat, but that's the subject for a different thread). However saying something like this: ]Commonality gives us something additional to pull for. Not all Mets are created equal Sounds a lot like Green is more equal than other Mets due to his religion, and if that is the case, is just wrong.

Edgy DC Aug 24 2006 09:25 AM

You know, we all agree that Memoirs of a Geisha was an awesome film, but if Centerfield wants to take a little extra personal satisfaction because of his cultural ties to it, is that so wrong?

Willets Point Aug 24 2006 09:29 AM

metirish wrote: Damn I feel a great sence of pride that Pete Flynn is from Ireland,imagine how I'd feel if the Mets had a player from Ireland on the team...... But you know that the Irish have a natural tendency toward gardening and groundskeeping not athletics (except thoroughbred training of course). SC=100

ScarletKnight41 Aug 24 2006 09:31 AM

Iubitul wrote: However saying something like this: ]Commonality gives us something additional to pull for. Not all Mets are created equal Sounds a lot like Green is more equal than other Mets due to his religion, and if that is the case, is just wrong. First of all, it's not merely his religion, but it's the fact that he's made an effort to be a role model to kids that is noteworthy. And I have witnessed you root for and against your own favorites on this team. The fact that someone wears a Mets uniform doesn't automatically sway you to root for Aaron Heilman or Chris Woodward. People have favorite players for a variety of reasons. Identifiabilty, be it for religion, ethnicity, the sharing of birthdays, etc. are all things that go into why we pull for certain players moreso than for others. It doesn't make those players "more equal than other Mets," but it goes into why you're not going to be buying your kid a Heilman jersey.

Iubitul Aug 24 2006 09:33 AM

ScarletKnight41 wrote: And I have witnessed you root for and against your own favorites on this team. The fact that someone wears a Mets uniform doesn't automatically sway you to root for Aaron Heilman or Chris Woodward. And as I have stated, it's all about what happens on the field. I had a problem with Heilman, because I thought he wasn't giving it his best effort. I had a problem with Michael Fucker because I can't get past what he did as a Brave. I don't think Woodward is good enough to don a major league uniform, and shouldn't be wasting a roster spot. All because of what they do on the field. Tell me where that differs with anything I said here - Here's the short answer, it doesn't.

Edgy DC Aug 24 2006 09:37 AM

I just scratched a hole in my head.

KC Aug 24 2006 09:38 AM

I knew this was going to happen, I should just go bury my head in the sand.

Iubitul Aug 24 2006 09:40 AM

KC wrote: I knew this was going to happen, I should just go bury my head in the sand. Oh sure - and expose that ass even more....

ScarletKnight41 Aug 24 2006 09:41 AM

The point is that we all have our favorites. And you appear to be standing in judgment about what factors the rest of us should or shouldn't be using in determining our individual favorites. If Michael Tucker is less equal to you, despite the fact that he has been a model player since coming on board, that's totally your prerogative. You're allowed to not like certain Mets, even if their misdeeds are seeping into the annals of ancient history. If Lastings Milledge is more equal to you because you share a birthday with him, that's also your prerogative. The rest of us prioritize fandom based on a whole slew of factors, and all of our mileage varies based on individual factors.

Iubitul Aug 24 2006 09:45 AM

But my point is that my favorites, or lack of favorites is due to what happens on the field, nothing else. And as for your Milledge reference - I adopted him long before I had a clue about his date of birth. Again it was all about his promise, and percieved ability on the field.

ScarletKnight41 Aug 24 2006 09:47 AM

Iubitul wrote: But my point is that my favorites, or lack of favorites is due to what happens on the field, nothing else. I really don't think it's as cut and dry as that. And most of us can and do own up to the fact that all sorts of off-the-field factors go into fandom. It's human nature.

KC Aug 24 2006 09:49 AM

Iu: >>>it was all about his promise, and percieved ability on the field<<< And you wear your hair the same as he does.

Edgy DC Aug 24 2006 09:49 AM

Why Tucker? We have, by my count, four players and a coach who are former Braves. Dozens of other former Braves have ended up at Shea also.

Benjamin Grimm Aug 24 2006 09:55 AM

I don't see anything particularly hateful about Tucker. He didn't wear the Braves uniform out of a desire to be evil. They're just one of 30 baseball teams. I have no problem with Tom Glavine being a former Brave either. Or Julio Franco. Should they have refused to ever play for the Braves because the team from Atlanta is inherently evil? And were the Braves evil back in 1987 when Glavine first pitched for them? Can we forgive him for pitching for the Braves back then because it was a youthful indiscretion, but loathe him for not leaving as soon as they became evil? (And when was that anyway?) Or have the Braves always been evil? If that's the case, should I rip up my Felix Millan baseball cards?

seawolf17 Aug 24 2006 09:56 AM

What did Michael Tucker ever do as a Brave to us? I didn't even know he was a Brave. Ms. Wolf asked who he was the other night, and I said he played for the Royals.

ScarletKnight41 Aug 24 2006 09:58 AM

It goes back to 1998, when Tucker came up spikes high against Piazza in a game right before the All Star Break.

Iubitul Aug 24 2006 10:00 AM

="KC"]Iu: >>>it was all about his promise, and percieved ability on the field<<< And you wear your hair the same as he does. You only know that because I let you peak under my do-rag...

Edgy DC Aug 24 2006 10:00 AM

Mets to hate: Kurt Abbott, Jack Aker, Sandy Alomar, Bob Aspromonte, Jim Beauchamp, Juan Berenguer, Terry Blocker, Bobby Bonilla, Darren Bragg, Rico Brogna, Brett Butler, Paul Byrd, Buzz Capra, Don Cardwell, Tony Castillo, Rick Cerone, Bruce Chen, Brad Clontz, Carlos Diaz, Jorge Fabregas, Pete Falcone, Leo Foster, Julio Franco, Matt Franco, Danny Frisella, Dave Gallagher, Gary Gentry, Bernard Gilkey, Tom Glavine, Mike Hampton, Tom Hausman, Danny Heep, Ken Henderson, Ron Herbel, Roberto Hernandez, John Hudek, Bob Johnson, The Other Bob Johnson, Mike Jorgensen, Kevin Lomon, Eli Marrero, Mike Marshall, Tom Martin, Greg McMichael, Felix Millan, Willie Montanez, C. J. Nitkowski, Joe Nolan, Charlie O'Brien, Tom Paciorek, Bill Pecota, Alejandro Peña, Todd Pratt, Charlie Puleo, Jeff Reardon, Steve Reed, Mike Remlinger, Armando Reynoso, Ray Sadecki, Rey Sanchez, Doug Sisk, Pete Smith, Tim Spehr, Mike Stanton, George Stone, Tony Tarasco, John Thomson, Joe Torre, Alex Treviño, Michael Tucker, Claudell Washington, Gerald Williams, and Tyler Yates. Grrrr... Kevin Lomon. I'm stil steamed at that little two-faced shit.

Iubitul Aug 24 2006 10:02 AM

seawolf17 wrote: What did Michael Tucker ever do as a Brave to us? I didn't even know he was a Brave. Ms. Wolf asked who he was the other night, and I said he played for the Royals. In 1998, Tucker was the Brave that went in spikes high into Piazza in the game before the all-star break. He was called safe by Angel Hernandez because Hernandez had a plane to catch...

Centerfield Aug 24 2006 10:02 AM

It's a tough situation. It's very common to hear minority groups express satisfaction at seeing the advancement of someone in their community. "It's good to see a black manager." "I like him because he's a good Jewish ballplayer." But if a white, protestant fan ever said "I like Joe Ballplayer because he's white", he'd be roundly criticized. Even in a situation like the NBA where white players are a minority. I don't know the right answer. I find nothing wrong with Scarlet taking extra pride that Green is a Jewish ballplayer, nor do I think it's wrong that I hope someday the Mets have a Korean American star. At the same time, I certainly have no problem with lubitul's colorblind approach. And I appreciate that he has it. Hell, if everyone thought like lubitul, it would make this whole debate unnecessary. But therein, I guess, lies the problem. Until everyone has a colorblind approach, minorities will be rooting for role models to shoot down negative stereotypes. To make that Jewish Superstar book a little thicker.

KC Aug 24 2006 10:02 AM

SK: >>>Tucker came up spikes high against Piazza<<< What harm could that have done, Piazza never blocked the plate. Oooops, flashback - wrong thread.

seawolf17 Aug 24 2006 10:02 AM

="Edgy DC"]Mets to hate: Kurt Abbott, Jack Aker, Sandy Alomar, Bob Aspromonte, Jim Beauchamp, Juan Berenguer, Terry Blocker, Bobby Bonilla, Darren Bragg, Rico Brogna, Brett Butler, Paul Byrd, Buzz Capra, Don Cardwell, Tony Castillo, Rick Cerone, Bruce Chen, Brad Clontz, Carlos Diaz, Jorge Fabregas, Pete Falcone, Leo Foster, Julio Franco, Matt Franco, Danny Frisella, Dave Gallagher, Gary Gentry, Bernard Gilkey, Tom Glavine, Mike Hampton, Tom Hausman, Danny Heep, Ken Henderson, Ron Herbel, Roberto Hernandez, John Hudek, Bob Johnson, The Other Bob Johnson, Mike Jorgensen, Kevin Lomon, Eli Marrero, Mike Marshall, Tom Martin, Greg McMichael, Felix Millan, Willie Montanez, C. J. Nitkowski, Joe Nolan, Charlie O'Brien, Tom Paciorek, Bill Pecota, Alejandro Peña, Todd Pratt, Charlie Puleo, Jeff Reardon, Steve Reed, Mike Remlinger, Armando Reynoso, Ray Sadecki, Rey Sanchez, Doug Sisk, Pete Smith, Tim Spehr, Mike Stanton, George Stone, Tony Tarasco, John Thomson, Joe Torre, Alex Treviño, Michael Tucker, Claudell Washington, Gerald Williams, and Tyler Yates. Grrrr... Kevin Lomon. I'm stil steamed at that little two-faced shit. Well, some of them, anyway...

MFS62 Aug 24 2006 10:05 AM

Edgy, how did you forget Cliff Cook? LOL! EDIT: Sounds like its time for a "Non-big name Mets to Love" spinoff thread. Would you like to do the honors? Later

Iubitul Aug 24 2006 10:08 AM

="seawolf17"] ="Edgy DC"]Mets to hate: Kurt Abbott, Jack Aker, Sandy Alomar, Bob Aspromonte, Jim Beauchamp, Juan Berenguer, Terry Blocker, Bobby Bonilla, Darren Bragg, Rico Brogna, Brett Butler, Paul Byrd, Buzz Capra, Don Cardwell, Tony Castillo, Rick Cerone, Bruce Chen, Brad Clontz, Carlos Diaz, Jorge Fabregas, Pete Falcone, Leo Foster, Julio Franco, Matt Franco, Danny Frisella, Dave Gallagher, Gary Gentry, Bernard Gilkey, Tom Glavine, Mike Hampton, Tom Hausman, Danny Heep, Ken Henderson, Ron Herbel, Roberto Hernandez, John Hudek, Bob Johnson, The Other Bob Johnson, Mike Jorgensen, Kevin Lomon, Eli Marrero, Mike Marshall, Tom Martin, Greg McMichael, Felix Millan, Willie Montanez, C. J. Nitkowski, Joe Nolan, Charlie O'Brien, Tom Paciorek, Bill Pecota, Alejandro Peña, Todd Pratt, Charlie Puleo, Jeff Reardon, Steve Reed, Mike Remlinger, Armando Reynoso, Ray Sadecki, Rey Sanchez, Doug Sisk, Pete Smith, Tim Spehr, Mike Stanton, George Stone, Tony Tarasco, John Thomson, Joe Torre, Alex Treviño, Michael Tucker, Claudell Washington, Gerald Williams, and Tyler Yates. Grrrr... Kevin Lomon. I'm stil steamed at that little two-faced shit. Well, some of them, anyway... And you missed Mike Hampton? Oh wait - we can't hate him - he's just interested in better schooling....

ScarletKnight41 Aug 24 2006 10:14 AM

He's a looser.

Edgy DC Aug 24 2006 10:22 AM

Cliff Cook never played for the Braves. Mike Hampton wasn't forgotten.

Willets Point Aug 24 2006 11:01 AM

Iubitul wrote: I'm still waiting for the first Italian-English-German/American, who was born in a town along the CT coast to a firefighter father so I can have someone to identify with... Find your hero.

MFS62 Aug 24 2006 11:54 AM

Willets Point wrote: Find your hero. ]OUT OF THE RUINS OUT FROM THE WRECKAGE CAN`T MAKE THE SAME MISTAKE THIS TIME WE ARE THE CHILDREN THE LAST GENERATION WE ARE THE ONES THEY LEFT BEHIND AND I WONDER WHEN WE ARE EVER GONNA CHANGE LIVING UNDER THE FEAR, TILL NOTHING ELSE REMAINS WE DON`T NEED ANOTHER HERO WE DON`T NEED TO KNOW THE WAY HOME ALL WE WANT IS LIFE BEYOND THUNDERDOME LOOKING FOR SOMETHING WE CAN RELY ON THERE`S GOTTA BE SOMETHING BETTER OUT THERE LOVE AND COMPASSION THEIR DAY IS COMING ALL ELSE ARE CASTLES BUILT IN THE AIR AND I WONDER WHEN WE ARE EVER GONNA CHANGE LIVING UNDER THE FEAR TILL NOTHING ELSE REMAINS ALL THE CHILDREN SAY WE DON`T NEED ANOTHER HERO WE DON`T NEED TO KNOW THE WAY HOME ALL WE WANT IS LIFE BEYOND THUNDERDOME SO WHAT DO WE DO WITH OUR LIFES WE LEAVE ONLY A MARK WILL OUR STORY SHINE LIKE A LIGHT OR END IN THE DARK GIVE IT ALL OR NOTHING WE DON`T NEED ANOTHER HERO WE DON`T NEED TO KNOW THE WAY HOME ALL WE WANT IS LIFE BEYOND THUNDERDOME Later

metirish Aug 24 2006 02:20 PM

Green on coming to NY. ] “It’s something that’s always intrigued me,” Green said. “New York is head and shoulders the largest Jewish population in the country, if not the world, and it will be an interesting and fun experience for me. I’m looking forward to being part of the Jewish community there.”

KC Aug 24 2006 02:31 PM

There are more Dominicans in New York than The Dominican Republic. When high profile Dominicans were brought in, it was mocked.

ScarletKnight41 Aug 24 2006 02:54 PM

The question at the time was whether Omar was obtaining Dominican players because of their nationality. I don't think that anyone believes that Omar went out to get Green because he's Jewish.

KC Aug 24 2006 03:42 PM

SK: >>>I don't think that anyone believes that Omar went out to get Green because he's Jewish.<<< No, but I bet there are those who believe some wanted him here just because he was Jewish and his practicing holidays was a family raising convenient point to add to your side of the debate. I admit at this point I'm being argumentative and I can't relate to you on this. Maybe I'll go surf around and see if there are and German/Irish/Lithuanian/ English assclowns in MLB and find me a role model.

ScarletKnight41 Aug 24 2006 03:47 PM

]No, but I bet there are those who believe some wanted him here just because he was Jewish and his practicing holidays was a family raising convenient point to add to your side of the debate. Who cares if some people believe that? Like WFAN callers, they're irrelevant.

KC Aug 24 2006 03:55 PM

I'm one of the some, therefore I'm irrelevant.

cooby Aug 24 2006 03:55 PM

ScarletKnight41 wrote: ="Iubitul"] However saying something like this: ]Commonality gives us something additional to pull for. Not all Mets are created equal Sounds a lot like Green is more equal than other Mets due to his religion, and if that is the case, is just wrong. First of all, it's not merely his religion, but it's the fact that he's made an effort to be a role model to kids that is noteworthy. . Listen, I'm not Jewish, but I do have kids, and I think this is an excellent point. There just are not enough high profile people out there of any denomination willing to show their faith.

Benjamin Grimm Aug 24 2006 05:25 PM

I think there are too many, but I admit I have a minority perspective here.

Gwreck Aug 24 2006 05:27 PM

cooby wrote: ="ScarletKnight41"]First of all, it's not merely his religion, but it's the fact that he's made an effort to be a role model to kids that is noteworthy. Listen, I'm not Jewish, but I do have kids, and I think this is an excellent point. There just are not enough high profile people out there of any denomination willing to show their faith. What does his religion have to do with being a role model to kids (??)

ScarletKnight41 Aug 24 2006 05:33 PM

Not playing baseball on Yom Kippor makes him a role model for Jewish kids. It's the holilest day on the Jewish calendar. It's nice to see a high-profile athelete treat that as a priority.

Benjamin Grimm Aug 24 2006 05:33 PM

Even I can see that point.

ScarletKnight41 Aug 24 2006 06:20 PM

Did the Mets sign Shawn Green or Eric Bana?

metirish Aug 25 2006 09:24 AM

[url=http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/mets/ny-spgreen254864622aug25,0,6752586.story?coll=ny-baseball-headlines]Even Jewish MFY fans come to cheer Shawn Green[/url] Who knew Jason Marquis is a Jew?

ScarletKnight41 Aug 25 2006 09:31 AM

metirish wrote: [url=http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/mets/ny-spgreen254864622aug25,0,6752586.story?coll=ny-baseball-headlines]Even Jewish MFY fans come to cheer Shawn Green[/url] Who knew Jason Marquis is a Jew? I did. Last night D-Dad even mentioned how two Jewish players (Marquis and Green) were squaring off against each other.

metirish Aug 25 2006 09:32 AM

]Last night D-Dad even mentioned how two Jewish players (Marquis and Green) were squaring off against each other I wonder when was the last time that happened.

martin Aug 25 2006 09:33 AM

Yancy Street Gang wrote: I think there are too many, but I admit I have a minority perspective here. i agree. the whole idea of people having faith and other people respecting it seems very primitive. and so does being proud of faith, or race. and i think few things are more important than people realizing this. but it is a baseball board, and shawn green seems like a nice fellow. the perfect replacement for nady. the final piece in the puzzle of a juggernaut offense.

metirish Aug 25 2006 09:39 AM

] I wonder when was the last time that happened. Well that's a dumb question from me,I'm sure Green and Marquis have faced each other recently.

Edgy DC Aug 25 2006 09:41 AM

martin wrote: ="Yancy Street Gang"]I think there are too many, but I admit I have a minority perspective here. i agree. the whole idea of people having faith and other people respecting it seems very primitive. and so does being proud of faith, or race. and i think few things are more important than people realizing this. but it is a baseball board, and shawn green seems like a nice fellow. the perfect replacement for nady. the final piece in the puzzle of a juggernaut offense. Should they be disrespected for it? How is what we do here every day any less primitive?

Hillbilly Aug 25 2006 09:53 AM

Primitive means ancestral. So Martin use of term is right on the money.

martin Aug 25 2006 10:00 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Aug 25 2006 10:03 AM

i think we should respect faith in the same way we respect anything asserted without, or in spite of, evidence. for instance if a guy claims 2 plus 2 equals 6, we just laugh that off, and accept that what he is saying is silly and pointless. not so with religions. the christian or jew will assert things just as ridiculous, and we act like that is somehow respectable. i'm not saying we should go around being jackasses to people with faith. but i think the mainstream mentality that we should somehow we should have some sort of reverence for people's faith, the time for that has come and gone. i think this unfounded reverence opens the door to infect future generations with faith. what we do here is clearly pointless and primitive, but since we all know that, its cool, yo. we arent positive the mets are the best team in the universe because by random chance we were born into that unshakeable belief. and i apologize for all this in the baseball forum.

martin Aug 25 2006 10:01 AM

oops, double post. i am incompetent and cant delete posts.

Hillbilly Aug 25 2006 10:06 AM

To follow up, if one celebrates individuals of their own group, it suggests that they favor one group, their own, over others. People of other ancestral lines almost naturally response with ‘what about my people” (check out this thread). It’s a slippery slope that is the root of tribalism, nationalism, and other forces that too often lead to no good. Of course, everybody should be proud of who they are, but that’s the point everyone should be. Ultimately all our ancestors left Africa a mere 50,000 years ago, so in truth we all share the same history, if we follow our ancestry back far enough. So we should all admire Green for being a good guy and a marvelous athlete and our brother.

Edgy DC Aug 25 2006 10:20 AM

I think things asserted lacking practical concrete evidence are very very very different from those asserted despite practical concrete evidence to the contrary. This argument has been had a billion times in better venues than this, but I do not gather weekly to assert that 2+2=6 or anything like it.

martin Aug 25 2006 10:35 AM

Edgy DC wrote: I think things asserted lacking practical concrete evidence are very very very different from those asserted despite practical concrete evidence to the contrary. and when pushed, religious people who also have a hard time completely being wackos will admit that major tenets of their faiths are silly. and often over time they will backpedal until they are only asserting something so vague as to be not close to refutable. but that (not being explicitly proven as crazy) is a low standard for a belief worth respecting, a belief worth dividing over or becoming a victim or aggressor over. ]This argument has been had a billion times in better venues than this that is true and again, i apologize for bringing it up here. i like to talk about it, but this isnt the place.

Hillbilly Aug 25 2006 10:36 AM

Galileo Galilei had concrete proof of a phenomena that went against the teaching of dominate religious bodies of his time, but rather than accept his insights, faith interfered with logic at it was argued that ‘2+2=6’ so to speak. The evidence and logical deductions of evolution are enormous in scope and scale, yet many people of faith insist on arguing that ‘2+2=6’. So although the existence of God has no conclusive evidence to the contrary, there have been examples of important religious tenets being ‘proven’ wrong and were people of faith choose to continue in their ignorance.

duan Aug 25 2006 10:39 AM as a

committed Atheist, I'd heartily recommend to all that we DON'T GET INTO THIS HERE. Seriously folks. we'll have a row.

Edgy DC Aug 25 2006 10:42 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Aug 25 2006 10:48 AM

martin wrote: and when pushed, religious people who also have a hard time completely being wackos will admit that major tenets of their faiths are silly. and often over time they will backpedal until they are only asserting something so vague as to be not close to refutable. but that (not being explicitly proven as crazy) is a low standard for a belief worth respecting, a belief worth dividing over or becoming a victim or aggressor over. Broad characterization. Really broad. And I know about Galileo. A lot. Disrespecting peoople is disrespecting people.

Willets Point Aug 25 2006 10:45 AM

="duan"]Seriously folks. we'll have a row. There's nothing wrong with a bit of the fisticuffs, old chum.

martin Aug 25 2006 10:47 AM

Edgy DC wrote: Broad characterization. Really broad. And I know about Galileo. A lot. Disrespecting peoople is disrespecting people. i should be more careful to point out that i mean that irrational beliefs should be disprespected, not necessarily the people who have them. certainly people better than i have some wild beliefs about various types of magic. i dont mean that we should be anything other that perfect gentlemen and ladies to each other, just that i think we give some beliefs a free pass mostly based on the number of people that have the beliefs, not the actual merit of those beliefs. ok, i am out of here.

Hillbilly Aug 25 2006 10:50 AM

Edgy, Good then you exactly what I mean. Facts are facts and history is history and I'm not trying to disrespect any individuals, I'm pointing out the short comings of religious faith as an institution (again you know what I'm talking about - on the broadest terms) when you starting reference point is 'truth' you have no where to go. That's all I'm saying.

MFS62 Aug 25 2006 10:53 AM

Is there any doubt that this thread is worthy of archiving? But maybe that should wait until we resolve how many Angels can fit on the head of a pin. Later

Edgy DC Aug 25 2006 10:54 AM

I've got work to do. Not for the first time.

Frayed Knot Aug 25 2006 01:49 PM

Back to Shawn Green the ballplayer for a second; I've now read two different pieces over the last day or two (Hardball Times & Baseball Prospectus) that have referred to him as a defensive liability, even "albatross" in the words of BP. That's never been my impression but it's not liked I've watched him a whole lot lately. It's a situation that bears watching in any case. We should keep our eyes out for any clues of defense-related crimes being committed in Shea; Mr Green ... in RightField ... with the mitt

ScarletKnight41 Aug 25 2006 01:51 PM

Considering that he's replacing Lastings Milledge, our standards for defense in right field are currently pretty low.

Edgy DC Aug 25 2006 01:57 PM Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Aug 25 2006 02:04 PM

For what it's worth, most of Lastings' fuzzheadedness has been in left. Hasn't it? Anyhuck, the issue will come up in the postseason. Assuming we have both Green and Floyd healthy and starting, which one do you pul Chavez in for when it comes time for late-inning defense?

metirish Aug 25 2006 02:01 PM

My gut says Floyd but when he has his legs he can be more than decent in LF,I never thought of Green as a great right fielder but certainly he plays decent defence......although after reading the post from FK we'll have to watch him over the rest of the season.

Hillbilly Aug 25 2006 02:04 PM

When healthy Cliff is a good outfield. He's not so good when he's gimpy. So if you mean 100% heathy, you pull Green. But in practice it will be more likely be based on a double switch and be situationally dependent.

metirish Aug 25 2006 02:05 PM

We can only pray that Cliff will be healthy.....:)

Edgy DC Aug 25 2006 02:05 PM

Floyd hasn't had legs most of this year (or been half the defender he was last season). And he's unlikely to have them when he comes back from an achilles strain. So I hope Green doesn't need protection.

Benjamin Grimm Aug 25 2006 02:55 PM

Edgy DC wrote: Anyhuck, the issue will come up in the postseason. Assuming we have both Green and Floyd healthy and starting, which one do you pul Chavez in for when it comes time for late-inning defense? If Floyd and Green turn out to have the same defensive skills, you might make the decision based on who's due up for the opponents in the 9th inning? Lefties? Put Endy in right. Righties? Put Endy in left. You can also factor in Floyd's and Green's lineup positions. If one of them isn't likely to bat again and it's doubleswitch time, you can let Endy replace the guy whose turn is furthest away.

Frayed Knot Aug 28 2006 12:43 PM

Shawn Green is 17 HRs away from matching Hank Greenberg's record for lifetime Jewish HR hitters. P.S. Green's grandfather changed the family name to Green from ... Greenberg.

Nymr83 Aug 28 2006 02:25 PM

Frayed Knot wrote: Shawn Green is 17 HRs away from matching Hank Greenberg's record for lifetime Jewish HR hitters. modern-era homerun inflation at its finest.

Frayed Knot Aug 28 2006 02:31 PM

Well, Greenberg came up in the '30s which was a pretty inflated era of offense itself. Green's impending breaking of the record owes itself to WWII and Hank's missed near 4 years as much as anything.

Nymr83 Aug 28 2006 05:24 PM

in the 1935 NL there were 662 homers hit, there were 663 that year in the AL, thats 1325 homers or 82.8 per team (there were then 16 teams). in the 2005 NL there were 2580 homers hit, there were 2437 in the AL, thats 5047 homers, or 167 per team, twice as many homes per team as the 1935 level. edit- i realize this is only a snapshot of two years and that if i really wanted to i'd do 1930-1940 and 1995-2005 but i think this snapshot alone helps make my point.

dinosaur jesus Aug 28 2006 06:02 PM

I can't dispute your point--home runs are much, much more common now than in the 1930s (though teams scored somewhat more runs then). But I think it's a little misleading to use team home runs. In those days, only a few players hit very many home runs, but they hit them at a rate that compares very well with the best home run hitters today. The real difference is the rest of the team. The Tigers in 1938, for instance, when Greenberg hit 58 home runs, also featured Rudy York, who hit 33, and Charlie Gehringer, who hit 20--those would still be pretty good numbers for a catcher and a second baseman. But no one else on the team hit more than 7, and the team total was 137 (which was a lot for the time, but didn't lead the league). So it's true that hitting 300 or 400 home runs in a career isn't nearly the distinction that it was then. But that's not quite the same thing as saying that it was harder for Greenberg.

Nymr83 Aug 28 2006 09:36 PM

dinosaur, look at the NL league leaders in the 1930's, the leader often had under 35 and even under 30 homers.

dinosaur jesus Aug 29 2006 06:34 AM

That's true in the National League, which was the pitcher's league. Here are the home run leaders in the American League, 1930-1939: 1930: Ruth, 49; Gehrig, 41 1931: Ruth, 46; Gehrig, 46 1932: Foxx, 58; Ruth, 41 1933: Foxx, 48; Ruth, 34 1934: Gehrig, 49; Foxx, 44 1935: Foxx, 36; Greenberg, 36 1936: Foxx, 49; Trosky, 42 1937: Dimaggio, 46; Greenberg, 40 1938: Greenberg, 58; Foxx, 50 1939: Foxx, 35; Greenberg, 33 The leaders hit about as many as they do now, but the rest of the league took another 60 years to catch up. You could say, though, that this is a very small group of exceptional hitters: just six of them. And the really remarkable thing is that four were first basemen.

Frayed Knot Aug 29 2006 07:22 AM

Here's your main difference: Greenberg ABs = 5,193 Green = 6,106 + whatever he's had this season That's two+ seasons more ABs and Green is still the better part of a year away (maybe more) from equaling this somewhat trivial "record". I think I can live with this without feeling that it's been tainted by HR inflation.

Nymr83 Aug 29 2006 01:07 PM

well certainly the "record" itself is pretty meaningless, it probably fits in somewhere between the record for career batting average by a left-handed relief pitcher and the record for how many times rickey henderson has reffered to himself in the 3rd person in an interview. but, if you're going to talk about the record at all, it is fair game to reference the conditions under which it was set.

ScarletKnight41 Sep 01 2006 08:47 PM

="Frayed Knot"] I've now read two different pieces over the last day or two (Hardball Times & Baseball Prospectus) that have referred to him as a defensive liability, even "albatross" in the words of BP. That's never been my impression but it's not liked I've watched him a whole lot lately. It's a situation that bears watching in any case. We should keep our eyes out for any clues of defense-related crimes being committed in Shea; Mr Green ... in RightField ... with the mitt Gary Cohen just said on tonight's broadcast that Green is a former Gold Glove winner. That doesn't sound too criminal. I find it amusing how his cap always falls off when he's running to make a play. I don't know why, but I think it's funny.

Gwreck Sep 01 2006 09:27 PM

ScarletKnight41 wrote: I find it amusing how his cap always falls off when he's running to make a play. I don't know why, but I think it's funny. He deliberately gets it a size too big so that it'll shrink to better fit him. As per Gary on yesterday's (?) broadcast.

Frayed Knot Sep 01 2006 10:32 PM

The implication in the pieces I read isn't that he never was a good fielder, but that he no longer is.

MFS62 Sep 02 2006 06:40 AM

Some writers get an impression of a player and never let it go. When Green was in Toronto, he was a plus fielder with a very good arm. Later, he hurt his throwing arm, which necessitated his move to first base. Now, it has healed enough for him to play the outfield again. Maybe they think his arm is still bad. Later