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How many pitchers should the Mets take into the playoffs?

How many pitchers should the Mets carry on their 2006 post-season roster?

Eight	1 votes
Nine	2 votes
Ten	4 votes
Eleven	13 votes
Twelve	2 votes

Yancy Street Gang Aug 31 2006 11:59 AM

On this page I posted a brief history of Mets pitchers in the 1986, 1988, 1999, and 2000 postseasons. Today's question, though is: How many pitchers should the Mets carry on their 2006 post-season roster?

HahnSolo Aug 31 2006 12:10 PM

The title of the thread is how many they should take. I voted they should go with 10. However, I believe they'll take 11. Pedro, Glavine, Duque, Trax, Maine, Oliver, Bradford, Feliciano, Mota or Hernandez, Heilman, Wagner. As much as I hate to say it because he's been great, the guy I'd take out to get to 10 is Maine. I really don't see what his role will be, b/c if healthy Pedro, Glavine, Duque, and Trax will be the only starters. And between Mota and Roberto, based on the short tenures at Shea this year, I go with Mota.

vtmet Aug 31 2006 12:17 PM

53 Chad Bradford 25 Pedro Feliciano 47 Tom Glavine 48 Aaron Heilman 26 Orlando Hernandez 33 John Maine 59 Guillermo Mota 27 Darren Oliver 29 Steve Trachsel 13 Billy Wagner Out of the 13 guys currently listed at mets.com for the current roster (it also included Williams, Oliver Perez and Robert Hernandez)...I'd imagine that when Pedro comes back he'd be added to the list that I trimmed down...which would bring them to 11...I think Bradford/Mota/Heilman's performance lately has made RoboCop not necessary for the playoffs...Williams/Perez seem unlikely as well, since WIllie said something along the lines of: the playoffs are not when you experiment with your pitching...too bad Traschel gets a free ride based on his win totals, because IMO he's the weakest pitcher that we have, pitches good when we're losing or tied, but struggles as soon as we get a lead (sitting on the bench during a rally throws off his rythym?)...

sharpie Aug 31 2006 12:17 PM

I think Mota and Hernandez are on the roster and that Maine isn't.

metirish Aug 31 2006 12:18 PM

You would really drop Maine?, of all the starters he's the only one that is a power pitcher in the sence that the others rely on deception to get guys out,Maine from what I see gets his share of swings and misses...I'd keep him and move him to the pen if you want.

vtmet Aug 31 2006 12:19 PM

I think Maine has to make the roster, when Trax or Glavine or El Duque implode, we need Maine ready to step in and be a psydo-starter...

Edgy DC Aug 31 2006 12:21 PM

Dress ten, use nine, trust eight.

HahnSolo Aug 31 2006 12:22 PM

If he's in that role, then take Oliver off the roster and add Maine. I'd be okay with that. You don't need both of them for the same role.

Johnny Dickshot Aug 31 2006 12:26 PM

I don't think you can say there's a right number, especially given the opponents/parks and the DH possibility which'll change and allow roster re-sets between serieses. I will say there will be some debate, which is expected when there's 25 guys on a roster but the team uses nearly 50 guys during the year.

vtmet Aug 31 2006 12:28 PM

I said 11 because that is what I think the Mets will do, although IMO, 10 would be ideal...what I would like to see, would be Trax being removed from the rotation & given the option: either you pitch out of the pen, or you don't make the playoff roster...

metsmarathon Aug 31 2006 12:30 PM

i would much rather see us go in with trax and maine in the rotation, and el duque in the pen with oliver if needed.

Rotblatt Aug 31 2006 12:33 PM

I went with 11. At this point, I'd start Maine before Trachsel, although I'd still carry Trachs in case we needed an emergency start (say, we ended up using El Duque in an extra inning game, etc.). S: Petey, Glavine, Hernandez, Maine R: Wagner, Heilman, Bradford, Feliciano, Robo, Mota, Oliver, Trachsel By the way, can I just mention that Willie's bullpen useage has been superb this year? It was my biggest gripe with him last year and he really seems to have turned the corner--his use of Bradford & Feliciano are the best examples, I think . . .

MFS62 Aug 31 2006 12:50 PM

Johnny Dickshot wrote: I don't think you can say there's a right number, especially given the opponents/parks and the DH possibility which'll change and allow roster re-sets between serieses. JD nailed it. The team is allowed to modify their roster as they move on to the next series of playoffs. In the first round, you need 11 pitchers and 14 position players. That provides the maximum flexibility. (If you pinch hit for a pitcher, you need one to replace him) Then depending on how many games are necessary to win the first round, you can determine whether ot not you have to add a starter or whether the first round early game starters have had enough days of rest so they can start the second series. Eleven looks good here, too, but a first round reliever may have to be replaced with a starter. In the World Series, the pitchers don't bat (d'oh), so they can (hopefully)stay in the game longer. And with the requirement for another bat in the lineup, that player may be added to replace one of the pitchers. That said, I'll go with 11 pitchers for the first round, and Rotblatt's list looks pretty good to me: ] S: Petey, Glavine, Hernandez, Maine/ Traschell R: Wagner, Heilman, Bradford, Feliciano, Robo, Mota, Oliver, Trachsel/ Maine Later

cooby Aug 31 2006 01:29 PM

Nine, four starters, five relievers

Yancy Street Gang Aug 31 2006 01:32 PM

If the World Series goes seven games, pitchers will bat in three of them. Other than that, why distinguish between the number of pitchers you'd need in the NLDS and the NLCS? The second series is longer, but you still have your "travel" days to refresh the bullpen.

metirish Aug 31 2006 01:47 PM

I love that this year we are able to have this conversation. >

Edgy DC Aug 31 2006 01:56 PM

...in two threads.

MFS62 Aug 31 2006 01:57 PM

Yancy Street Gang wrote: If the World Series goes seven games, pitchers will bat in three of them. Other than that, why distinguish between the number of pitchers you'd need in the NLDS and the NLCS? The second series is longer, but you still have your "travel" days to refresh the bullpen. My number stays the same (11), but, based on how long the first series goes, you might want to revise the starter/ reliever mix. Later

vtmet Aug 31 2006 02:04 PM

Mota has faced 20 batters as a Met, striking out 9 of the 20...only allowing 2 of them to reach base, only 1 scored...with the absense of Duaner Sanchez, IMO, he's a given... on edit, oops, I assumed that I was responding to what someone said in the pitchers' thread...apparently it was in the roster thread...my bad...

Frayed Knot Aug 31 2006 03:35 PM

I'm in the midst of reading the David Maraniss book on Clemente - which, not surprisingly, has a whole chapter on the '71 WS seeing as how it was Roberto's shining moment. Anyway, I was struck by Pitt manager Danny Murtaugh's use of starters - as he used 6 different ones in the first 6 games - Dock Ellis (31 starts during the reg season) - Bob Johnson (27) - Steve Blass (33) - Luke Walker (24) - Nelson Briles (14) - Bob Moose (18) before returning to Blass for game 7

Edgy DC Aug 31 2006 03:41 PM

Got all September to choose between Robo and Mota.

MFS62 Aug 31 2006 03:42 PM

Yikes, and they won the World Series with that starting staff? They must have all had their best years at the same time. I'm beginning to feel a lot better about the Met chances. Note: IIRC, Bob Moose pitched well against the Mets Later

Frayed Knot Aug 31 2006 03:45 PM

Not only did that staff win but they beat the vaunted '4 20-game winner' staff of the '71 Orioles: Cuellar, Palmer, McNally & Dobson. All low scoring games except for game 2

HahnSolo Aug 31 2006 04:02 PM

Didn't their "fifth" starter, Briles, pitch a 1-hitter?

Frayed Knot Aug 31 2006 04:48 PM

[url=http://www.baseball-reference.com/postseason/1971_WS.shtml]Two Hitter[/url] The whole Oriole team hit barely .200 for the Series

Gwreck Aug 31 2006 06:28 PM

Rotblatt wrote: I went with 11. At this point, I'd start Maine before Trachsel, although I'd still carry Trachs in case we needed an emergency start (say, we ended up using El Duque in an extra inning game, etc.). S: Petey, Glavine, Hernandez, Maine R: Wagner, Heilman, Bradford, Feliciano, Robo, Mota, Oliver, Trachsel This list has 12, not 11. I think they take 11 in every round, simply because the starters can't be expected to go more than 5-7 innings each game. My pick would be to take Maine as a starter. Trachsel would be left off the roster. Sad but necessary. If I wasn't allowed to remove Trachsel, I'd put Maine in the 'pen and leave off R. Hernandez.

Gwreck Aug 31 2006 08:43 PM

It's real easy to vote for 8 or 9 but much harder to pick the pitchers. To cooby (who said 9) and the voter for 8 -- who would you pick?

cooby Aug 31 2006 08:54 PM

Fair enough question. Remember, I can't watch the games so I can only go by stats. Starters Trachsel Martinez Glavine O. Hernandez Relievers Wagner Heilman R. Hernandez Feliciano Bradford

Gwreck Sep 01 2006 03:52 PM

Interesting choices. With that set of pitchers, you have to hope that nobody gets shelled or hurt, because there's no Maine or Oliver as a long man.

metirish Sep 01 2006 03:58 PM

I'd throw El Duque in the pen and Maine in the rotation.

cooby Sep 01 2006 09:03 PM

I could do that, and get rid of Bradford

Gwreck Sep 01 2006 11:24 PM

Because that 2.87 ERA just isn't good enough to get him a spot, you know. (It's not meant to be snarky -- just to illustrate the point that I don't think they can justifiably take less than 10).

Yancy Street Gang Sep 08 2006 07:54 AM

Rick Peterson made an interesting point during his chat with the SNY broadcasters during Thursday night's game against the Dodgers. He said that if the Mets get the NLDS series that starts on Tuesday, they might be able to go with only three starting pitchers. (Because there's a day off between Game 1 and Game 2.) But if they get the Wednesday start they'll have to go with four. (See Gwreck's post in the post-season schedule thread.) I was hoping for the Tuesday series anyway, because I won't want to wait the extra day for playoff baseball to start. On the other hand, though, the Mets opponent would have that same advantage. If the Mets have a better fourth starter than their opponent does, they might be better off with the Wednesday series.

Edgy DC Sep 08 2006 08:01 AM

If their top two starters are rehabbing vets, they'd do well to avail themselves of their impressive depth and go to four starters, unless they really have their backs against the wall or something.

Yancy Street Gang Sep 08 2006 08:10 AM

I think I agree. If they get the Tuesday series, the schedule would be: NLDS: ]Game 1 Tuesday, October 3 Game 2 Thursday, October 5 Game 3 Saturday October 7 Game 4 Sunday, October 8, if necessary Game 5 Monday, October 9, if necessary Let's say it's Pedro on Tuesday, Glavine on Thursday, and Hernandez on Saturday. On Sunday, would you rather have Pedro on four days rest? Or Trachsel? As you said, if the Mets are up 2-1, I'd give it to Trachsel. Down 2-1, it would have to be Pedro. NLCS: ]Game 1 Wednesday, October 11 Game 2 Thursday, October 12 Game 3 Saturday, October 14 Game 4 Sunday, October 15 Game 5 Monday, October 16, if necessary Game 6 Wednesday, October 18, if necessary Game 7 Thursday, October 19, if necessary If Trachsel pitches Sunday's game and the Mets win, then Pedro could be ready to go in Game 1 of the NLCS. If Pedro pitches Game 4 of the NLDS, he wouldn't be able to pitch again until NLCS Game 3. If Pedro pitches Game 5 of the NLDS (and the Mets win), then he'd still be able to pitch Game 3 of the NLCS.

metsmarathon Sep 08 2006 08:22 AM

i would build my staff as follows: pedro glavine trachsel maine with el duque as my parachute, and oliver as my safety net. i'm more comfortable with duque in the pen if needed than trachsel. but i'm willing to flip em. in the pen, are: wagner heilman mota bradford and i guess feliciano over robo. that makes, what? eleven? i'm cool with that.

Edgy DC Sep 08 2006 10:06 AM

Man, we all seem to think Mota is a lock over Roberto Hernandez. That's totally still up in the air.

Rotblatt Sep 08 2006 10:08 AM

Frankly, I kind of think we should leave Trachsel off the roster and run with Maine. Barring, of course, a nice run by Trachs. Or maybe not actually OFF the roster, but at least not penciled in to the starting playoff rotation. We can hold him in case we have to use, say, Hernandez or Petey in relief--Trachs can start the next day. I'm tempted to make the argument that Maine should start before Hernandez, but the old guy's been a'ight for us and is a little more trustworthy, I think. Trachsel would be, hands down, the worst man in our bullpen, which means we'd only use him in case of an emergency. Hell, El Duque would be our worst man in the bullpen. Maine: 68 IP, 3.44 ERA, 1.01 WHIP, 6.75 K/9, 2.52 BB/9, 1.59 HR/9 Trachs: 150.7 IP, 5.02 ERA, 1.60 WHIP, 4.12 K/9, 4.30 BB/9, 1.37 HR/9 Maine has been flat out better than Trachs in every single category, with the exception of HR/9. I just don't see how you start Trachs over Maine. I'm opposed to any of our starters going on short rest, as they have poor track records, IIRC. If we absolutely have to use Petey on short rest in Game 5 or 7, then so be it. Game 1 Tuesday, October 3 - Petey (3.84 ERA) Game 2 Thursday, October 5 - Glavine (3.98 ERA) Game 3 Saturday October 7 - Hernandez (4.67 ERA) Game 4 Sunday, October 8 - Petey (regular rest) Game 5 Monday, October 9 - Maine (3.44 ERA) Game 1 Wednesday, October 11 - Glavine Game 2 Thursday, October 12 - Hernandez Game 3 Saturday, October 14 - Petey (extra day's rest) Game 4 Sunday, October 15 - Maine (extra day's rest) Game 5 Monday, October 16, if necessary - Glavine (regular rest) Game 6 Wednesday, October 18, if necessary - Hernandez (regular rest) Game 7 Thursday, October 19, if necessary - Petey (regular rest)

Edgy DC Sep 08 2006 10:18 AM

="Rotblatt"]Maine has been flat out better than Trachs in every single category, with the exception of HR/9. I just don't see how you start Trachs over Maine. Well, I'm not necessarily endorsing it, but you know there's more to it tna that which they're taking into account --- gush-goshy intangible shit like "experience," "knows how to pitch," "consistency," etc., along with the notion that a veteran works better in a set role and a rookie can swing. All that said, I really wanted Glendon Rusch to start over Bobby Jones in the 2000 series, even after Jones turned in the one-hitter to close out the NLCS. I liked the lefty matching up against the Yankees.

MFS62 Sep 08 2006 10:29 AM

There's an old baseball expression that "hitting is timing and pitching is upsetting timing". (Or something like that) The first two starters, Pedro and Glavine, and even OHernandez, throw in the high 80's. It would seem that someone like Maine, who throws in the low-mid 90's, would give the opposition batters a different game-to-game look. In-game, most of the Mets righty relievers throw as hard as Maine (the exception being Bradford who has a funky delivery). But, as Edgy said, experience tends to count for something. But Maine has to be on the roster somewhere. He's earned it. And who knows? He could be this generation's Howard Ehmke. (A surprise WS starter who struck out 14 batters for Philadelphia) Later

Yancy Street Gang Sep 08 2006 10:32 AM

I can see the argument for leaving Trachsel off the roster, but I don't think it's going to happen. I think he's probably the fourth starter. Maine would be the long guy, and in a postseason game, you're often quicker to go to the long guy, especially late in the series.

Rotblatt Sep 08 2006 10:40 AM

]Well, I'm not necessarily endorsing it, but you know there's more to it tna that which they're taking into account --- gush-goshy intangible shit like "experience," "knows how to pitch," "consistency," etc., along with the notion that a veteran works better in a set role and a rookie can swing. Yeah, I know, and it doesn't help that Trachs can't pitch in relief, but I just think all that other stuff is overrated. I agree, though, that Willie will probably look at all that stuff and decide to go with Trachs. It's totally the wrong choice, IMO, though. ="Yancy Street Gang"]Maine would be the long guy, and in a postseason game, you're often quicker to go to the long guy, especially late in the series. Sure, but why let Trachsel dig a 3- or 4-run hole for us before bringing in a better pitcher? I mean, the dude walks a lot of people and gives up a lot of home runs. That's means things can change in a hurry for him. Now, if Trachs gets hot and throws up a couple zeros his next two or three outings, I'm all for it--or if Maine implodes--but Maine's been darned good this year. After the Seo experience last year, I'm not convinced he'll be able to keep it up for more than a season, but right now, the dude's hot. Let's ride him until he stops.

Edgy DC Sep 08 2006 10:44 AM

Yancy's posts recently have been compelling, and I realize it's because his avatar says, "Listen to the old white-haired guy, or else he'll let the angry rock guy crush you."

Yancy Street Gang Sep 08 2006 10:52 AM

I'm with you, Rotblatt. I'm not saying that starting Trachsel is my preference, but it's what I think will happen. My rotation would be Martinez, Glavine, Hernandez, Maine.

Valadius Sep 15 2006 03:28 PM

Well let's see now: Pedro Martinez Tom Glavine John Maine Orlando Hernandez Billy Wagner Darren Oliver Chad Bradford Pedro Feliciano Roberto Hernandez Aaron Heilman Royce Ring/Guillermo Mota/Heath Bell I'd go with 11. An intriguing choice to consider as well, I think, would be to put Oliver Perez in the pen as a middle reliever.

Edgy DC Sep 19 2006 05:21 PM

To what degree are you today reassessing your team's need for a Trachsellian element?

Valadius Sep 19 2006 06:52 PM

To the degree that I don't know how Willie's going to be able to whittle his pitchers down to 13 or less.

cooby Sep 19 2006 08:20 PM

Good God, Val, you weren't even going to let him in the bullpen?

Valadius Sep 19 2006 08:23 PM

He scared me too much.

cooby Sep 19 2006 08:25 PM

I'll tell you what - you post that hilarious conga line clip at least once tonight, and we'll overlook your oversight :)

Yancy Street Gang Sep 28 2006 10:56 AM

I think I voted 10, but it seems like 11 has been decided upon, and I'm down with that.

Gwreck Sep 28 2006 02:26 PM

I wouldn't be shocked to see 12: [u:26d24b6abe]Startuers[/u:26d24b6abe] O. Hernandez Glavine Trachsel Maine Pedro [u:26d24b6abe]Relievers[/u:26d24b6abe] Wagner Heilman Mota Bradford Feliciano Oliver R. Hernandez

Yancy Street Gang Sep 28 2006 02:32 PM

I know what you mean. I think if Pedro is one of the pitchers it might be nice to have 12 instead of 11.

Gwreck Sep 28 2006 02:35 PM

Yancy Street Gang wrote: I know what you mean. I think if Pedro is one of the pitchers it might be nice to have 12 instead of 11. It is also possible that they could leave Pedro off in the first round and add him back in for the second round (knock on wood and all that). I think Gary (?) made the point on SNY last night though that pinch-hitters really aren't going to be used that much anyway, so taking 12 wouldn't be too much of a burden. Endy figures to play most games as the first PH/defensive replacement, but how often are you going to need Woodward, Franco or Milledge except to bat for the pitcher?

Yancy Street Gang Sep 28 2006 02:40 PM

They'd also be useful in a double-switch, which is pretty much the same as batting for the pitcher when you think about it. Other than that, Woodward or Milledge might be a pinch runner. I don't think the Mets have any "defensive replacement" types other than Endy. Well, maybe Anderson Hernandez might spell Jose Valentin in late innings. I wouldn't make that move myself. I wouldn't even have Andy on the roster, but I'm not making the decisions.