Master Index of Archived Threads


Reggie Jackson - a beloved Yankee?

soupcan Sep 20 2006 03:41 PM

I brought this over from the 'Answer/Ask' thread in the NBF... SteveJRogers wrote: Revisionist history has Jackson as a beloved MFY Even after his "Yankee Moment" with the three homers MFY fans still held guys like a Munson, Piniella, Randolph, Rivers, and Billy Martin in higher regard and esteem Yankee fans still begrudginly accept that he was a part of 77-78 and barely acknowldege that his homer was the "Game Winning" hit of the "Bucky Bleeping Dent Game" Ask any Yankee fan which retired number should be unretired and they'll usually say Reggie's as he was only there for 5 years and more people associate him as an A, not a Yankee I think you're wrong Steve. I'm old enough to have a good memory of Jackson on the Yankees and I have no recollection of his being villified in any way at all when he played here. Sure he proclaimed himself the straw that stirs the drink when Munson was the beloved captain but that was more fodder for the whole Bronx Zoo media circus than a call to arms for fans of Munson. In fact I even remember Reggie Bars being a huge hit when they came out. Would A-Rod bars be a big seller? I think not.

metirish Sep 20 2006 03:44 PM

I read recently that Reggie had a tough first season in the Bronx and was even booed a few times.....

ScarletKnight41 Sep 20 2006 03:45 PM

My memory jibes with soup's. I don't know whether Reggie was necessarily beloved, but I don't recall fans hating him.

metirish Sep 20 2006 03:48 PM

Here I found this from Lupica http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/story/437267p-368462c.html

cooby Sep 20 2006 03:54 PM

I'm not a New Yorker, so I don't know how Yankee fans felt about him, but we could buy Reggie Bars even this far away and my thoughts at the time were that everybody loved Reggie. I sure did.

Frayed Knot Sep 20 2006 03:56 PM

Oh he was quite villified during his first season in da Bronx. He didn't hit at all in the first half of that year which, when combined with the (then) huge contract, his big mouth, plus the battles he had w/Munson & Billy, made him at least as abused as ARod is now. It also didn't help that he was seen as "George's boy" at a time when George wasn't popular. He then had a much better 2nd half, finally capping it off with the 3HR WS game which essentially turned him into a ... wait for it ... True Yankee!!

seawolf17 Sep 20 2006 04:03 PM

I think it was really "The Naked Gun" that sealed his status as a cult hero. "I must... kill... The Queen..."

cooby Sep 20 2006 04:08 PM

My fondest memory of Reggie is scoring that run AFTER he tore up his knee. What a hero! Though he was a A then.

Willets Point Sep 20 2006 04:15 PM

I liked Reggie. I remember him being pretty darn popular.

soupcan Sep 20 2006 04:17 PM

Did I mention how good Reggie Bars were? They were.

Valadius Sep 20 2006 04:39 PM

I wonder if we could compare them with those ridiculous Larry bars in Atlanta...

Johnny Dickshot Sep 20 2006 04:48 PM

="soupcan"] Did I mention how good Reggie Bars were? They were. That may be so but despite spending about 70% of my disposable income on candy at the time, I refused to buy any food endorsed by a MFY.

Frayed Knot Sep 20 2006 04:55 PM

I remember a (National Lampoon?) magazine parody of the 'Reggie Bar' soon after it came out: It's expensive, has a 160 IQ, and turns to shit shortly after you buy it Perhaps not coincidently, ARod is in SI reminding Verducci (among other things) about how intelligent he is, just like Reggie ws fond of doing. More than a few parallels between the two situations IMO. The big contract; the outsider status; the seeming need to feel loved and included; both having their battles with the beloved/entrenched stalwart (Jeter/Munson). The difference is that Alex has yet to have his NYY/WS moment to throw off the dogs in the press and stands, plus has the backing of manager - at least publicly anyway. Torre is reportedly close to Verducci and could be the source of some of the anonymous clubhouse sniping in the article.

KC Sep 20 2006 05:02 PM

Most Skank fans I know call him Mr. October - sounds pretty poplular to me. If ya ever wanna have fun with "die hard" Yankee fans who were around in the 70's - get 'em going with a "Munson was just an alright player" and you'll really see some heads spin.

Hillbilly Sep 20 2006 05:37 PM

He all but became the face of the organization during the latter part of his tenure as a MFY. I always liked him and have been even modifying one of his more famous lines lately by saying ‘when the leaves turn brown, my productivity is going way down’.

KC Sep 20 2006 05:47 PM

Eh, I liked him too. I liked Mattingly and Randolph too for that matter. Munson has become a GOD like figure to some Yankee fans over 35.

MFS62 Sep 20 2006 06:15 PM

KC wrote: If ya ever wanna have fun with "die hard" Yankee fans who were around in the 70's - get 'em going with a "Munson was just an alright player" and you'll really see some heads spin. You're right. And if you need some statistical backup, the closest major leaguer with whom he can be compared was journeyman first baseman Bruce Bochte (not Bruce Bochy the catcher/ manager). For about the same number of career at-bats, the numbers are quite close in most categories. Then, ask the Yankee fan if Bruce Bochte belongs in the Hall of Fame. (WARNING: You might then have to duck) Later

KC Sep 20 2006 06:20 PM

Tim McCarver is on his SIM score list at baseball-reference.com for batting. I rest my case. (of course I only cite SIM scores when they help my case)

Johnny Dickshot Sep 20 2006 06:40 PM

The joke about the Reggie bar was that you opened it up and it told you how good it was.

SteveJRogers Sep 20 2006 07:17 PM

Hmmm. Then maybe this is yet ANOTHER case of me paying more attention to the few (not just members of the media) that still to this day have no use for Reggie Either that or I'm putting too much emphasis on people using "He's more an A than a Yankee" arguments (For HOF plaque cap logo, number retirement, ect) the way "I always thought of him more an Expo than a Met" argument is used in terms of Gary Carter's Metlyness Interesting thing about Yankee fans love of Munson and Jeter as opposed to Jackson and Rodriguez. Clearly Munson and Jackson were polar opposites in virtually every way possible when it came to their off-field demeanors and such. Jeter and ARod are cut from the same Jordan-esque modern Sports Superstar cloth. Except Jeter doesn't act with the "I want you to LOVE ME, WHY DONT YOU LOVE ME?" way ARod comes off as.

KC Sep 20 2006 07:33 PM

We just spent half a day telling you they do love Jackson, you almost agree that maybe you're misguided, and then you go on to say they don't in the same post and throw him in with Arod ... who the fickle fans will love too if he has a good October. Your train of thought has derailed me.

SteveJRogers Sep 20 2006 07:49 PM

KC wrote: We just spent half a day telling you they do love Jackson, you almost agree that maybe you're misguided, and then you go on to say they don't in the same post and throw him in with Arod ... who the fickle fans will love too if he has a good October. Your train of thought has derailed me. ??? I meant more in the vein of the "Straw that stirs" first season comparision between him and Munson and ARod and Jeter

cooby Sep 20 2006 08:00 PM

I have a question. I remember Thurman Munson (kinda) but frankly, he didn't hit my radar much until the day he died. So a question for you New Yorkers, was Thurman Munson really idolized or was it just after his death? Steve, I am in no way asking this to discredit your argument, it's just that what you're saying made me wonder.

Johnny Dickshot Sep 20 2006 08:34 PM

Munson had a rep (deserved) as a real old-skool, hardnosed guy whom his teammates respected and fans adored in a lunchbucket kinda way. He'd be kinda like LoDuca had he come up thru the Mets' org. It was a sad day for baseball when he died.

cooby Sep 20 2006 08:37 PM

That is was. Somebody I knew was inconsolable but I don't remember who it was.

KC Sep 20 2006 09:17 PM

I don't know if they still do it at Yankee Stadium, but they used to honor him once a game between an inning and get everyone all pumped up and what not with a video tribute still 20-30 years later? It feeds to an age group's emotions and is subliminal advertising if you ask me. I might be a (fill in your own adjective here), but I think there's a fine line between honoring a player and exploiting the fact that he was popular and died a tragic death. This will never show up in any executive memos, but come on.

Valadius Sep 20 2006 09:29 PM

Once a game?!?!?!? Way to turn someone's memory into a marketing chip. That's disgusting.

SteveJRogers Sep 20 2006 09:31 PM

KC wrote: I don't know if they still do it at Yankee Stadium, but they used to honor him once a game between an inning and get everyone all pumped up and what not with a video tribute still 20-30 years later? It feeds to an age group's emotions and is subliminal advertising if you ask me. I might be a (fill in your own adjective here), but I think there's a fine line between honoring a player and exploiting the fact that he was popular and died a tragic death. This will never show up in any executive memos, but come on. I'm pretty sure that ended though after the ten year anniversary or right around that time. I know what you mean, they replayed Bob Sheppard's reading of Munson's plaque inscription, show the empty space behind the plate, ect. I haven't seen it in a LONG time so they did stop doing it after a point Kind of goes along with the God Bless America every game For a couple of years after their respective passings (thankfully it was STOPPED after only a couple of years) they actually did Mickey Mantle's and Joe DiMaggio's full introduction at Old Timers Day as well! Like if they did it right the spirts of Joe D and Mick would suddenly appear or something! You know, I'm starting to think maybe the Mets are on the right track with how they treat their past... =;)

SteveJRogers Sep 20 2006 09:37 PM

BTW in comparaison have you seen ANY footage of Gil Hodges Day at Shea when they retired Gil's number on 6/9/1972? The only clip I've heard is "Taps" played in honor of Gil on the Mets 40th Anniversary CD Probably the most emotionally sad day in Shea's history, though I'd suspect alot in that building were old Dodger fans rather than 1969 Met fans. NTTWATWWT of course

KC Sep 20 2006 09:48 PM

I'm pretty sure that you're wrong about it ending after ten years ... that would be like 1989?? I ain't talkin' about the 80's.

Edgy DC Sep 20 2006 10:34 PM

You shouldn't take too much from the sim scores. For one, they're exclusively offense. You score higher if you play the same position as a player, but that has nothing to do with how well you played it. For two, they don't adjust for league and era context. For three, a guy being on your list doesn't clarify at all whether he was "similar, but better," or "similar but lesser." And McCarver had a Hell of a career. I'm not going to push him for the Hall of Fame, but they could do and and have done a lot worse. Sim scores are a toy. I'm not going to make an argument for him for the Hall of Fame. Almost all Hall arguments are a waste of time, but I think similarity scores --- at least the ones at bb-r.com --- are a bad starting point.

SteveJRogers Sep 20 2006 10:39 PM

Word! I am awaiting the day MFY fans make the argument that Jorge Posada belongs in the Hall based on being better overall than Thurman Munson! Actually check that, I've been starting to hear such arguments made!

metirish Sep 20 2006 10:41 PM

The only Hall Posada will get to is the lunch hall.

KC Sep 20 2006 10:50 PM

Well, I don't really need a lecture on SIM's ... but thanks, Edge. I think I even said I only use it when it works for me but whatever.

Frayed Knot Sep 20 2006 10:51 PM

To sum up: - While there will always be those on both sides of the fence, Reggie was very UNpopular with large segments of Yanqui fans during his first season in NYC for all the predictable reasons: clashes w/Billy & Thurman, big contract, big mouth, didn't hit immediately - The inevitable pickup in his hitting and then particularly the 3 HR WS game went a long way towards changing that. There will always be some who never warm to a controversial figure like him (Francesa claims to have never been a fan) but his 2nd-4th year in pinstripes were very good as was his rep for hitting "in the clutch". In short, he became what fans thought he'd be ... it just took a while. (see Piazza, M.) - He slumped in the final (5th) year of his contract and the Yanx decided not to bring him back. George later blamed bad advice from his always mysterious "baseball people" in order to deflect bad pub from himself as that decision backfired and Reggie had a bounce-back year w/Anaheim. That, and the fact that his "replacement" Winfield never really became a NYY fave (this time Mattingly was the entrenched fair-haired boy) made Reggie even more popular in retrospect. - Fans in NY think of Reggie as a Yankee even though he spent about 1/4 of his career here because ... well because they're in New York. Most fans are provincial that way and Yanqui fans particularly so since they tend to view other MLB teams as merely conduits to deliver them players. - The press LOVED Reggie because he filled up their notebooks. He was all feast or famine the way Strawberry often was but Reggie enjoyed talking more and had a better vocabulary. - Munson was extremely popular with MFY fans of that era for the reasons mentioned here; old-skool, tough-guy, home-grown, everyman looking straight talker (he could also be a bit of a cantankerous bigot but that rarely got out at the time). - Why Billy Martin was a loved as he was always escaped me. I know he was an old-time Yankee and all, and fans seem to naturally gravitate towards small-ball strategy skippers even when it makes no sense. But, while I don't want to speak bad of the dead, if there's someone you had to pick in advance to wind up dead in a ditch on the side of the road due to a drunk driving accident while his young bride (5th wife btw) sat at home alone on Christmas Day ... it would have been Billy.

KC Sep 20 2006 10:52 PM

Oh, and Munce and Timmy will never (and shouldn't) even sniff the Hall.

Frayed Knot Sep 20 2006 10:56 PM

Some NYY fans have a tendancy to credit Munson for the years he would have had had his career (and life) not ended so tragically - and then judge his H-o-F credentials with the tacked-on career numbers those years would have provided. But, of course, you can't do that for so many reasons, not the least of which is that Thurman was already sliding downhill offensively and had wrecked knees to the point where his catching days were likely over anyway.

Edgy DC Sep 20 2006 11:20 PM

KC wrote: Well, I don't really need a lecture on SIM's ... but thanks, Edge. I think I even said I only use it when it works for me but whatever. Yeah, I was more replying to the Bruce Botche argument. But now I don't see him appearing on Munson's profile anyhow.

SteveJRogers Sep 20 2006 11:21 PM

="Frayed Knot"]Some NYY fans have a tendancy to credit Munson for the years he would have had had his career (and life) not ended so tragically - and then judge his H-o-F credentials with the tacked-on career numbers those years would have provided. But, of course, you can't do that for so many reasons, not the least of which is that Thurman was already sliding downhill offensively and had wrecked knees to the point where his catching days were likely over anyway. Don't forget the usual Yankee HOF credential of "Well look how many rings he has" as well as his MVP and ASG apperances I have a feeling there are still lingering resentments of those who put Johnny Bench over Thurman Munson as well! I think I can sum up the Martin fandom with the fact that they had "Man On The Street" interviews with fans on the Martin tribute video and one featured a man with an eye bandage saying he loved how Billy was a fighter and said that made Billy the same as one of them, cause as you could see he (the fan) was also a fighter Same reason MFY fans always loved David Wells and never truely took to Roger Clemens (his un-retiring should kill any chance of him having anything warmer than a tempid "Yeah you were an all time great player" response at Yanqui Stadium ever again)

Edgy DC Sep 20 2006 11:28 PM

A guy retires and makes the Hall of Fame, I can't see the Yankees or their supporters failing to underscore his tenure with them as the defining part of his career. The guy at one point threatened to boycott his own Hall of Fame ceremony if his image didn't have a Yankee cap.

TheOldMole Sep 21 2006 06:02 AM

During the Reggie era (and this was the only time in my life) I actually kinda liked the Yankees. I was at the World Series game in 1977 when Reggie hit the three home runs, and the place was wild with love. Don't forget Mike was booed a few times when he first came to the Mets, too.

SteveJRogers Sep 21 2006 09:02 AM

Edgy DC wrote: A guy retires and makes the Hall of Fame, I can't see the Yankees or their supporters failing to underscore his tenure with them as the defining part of his career. The guy at one point threatened to boycott his own Hall of Fame ceremony if his image didn't have a Yankee cap. I'm not so sure about that though. I'll give you that with Dave Winfield, but time will tell. I think the way he left still has something to do with it, Yankee cap or not. I don't think MFY fans or supporters will be clamoring for the Yankee logo on Rickey Henderson's cap!

cooby Sep 21 2006 09:07 AM

]I don't think MFY fans or supporters will be clamoring for the Yankee logo on Rickey Henderson's cap! I don't see why not. The stolen base record is quite a little nugget

MFS62 Sep 21 2006 09:09 AM

How can the Yankee fans not love him? After all, he has those rings.... Later

Edgy DC Sep 21 2006 09:44 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Sep 21 2006 10:55 AM

Reggie Jackson was accused of jaking it, and eventually became a True Yankee. Mickey Rivers was accused of jaking it, and eventually (despite being nothing like a Hall-of-Famer) became a True Yankee. I can't see why that logic wouldn't apply to Rickey Henderson, whose career was arguably superior to both of those put together. “Ugly buildings, politicians, and whores all get to be respectable if they stick around long enough,” said Noah Cross, John Huston's character in Chinatown. I don't see any reason that shouldn't apply to Yankees as well. (Dirty secret: It isn't just the Yankees who whitewash the sins of tarnished old stars.)

Willets Point Sep 21 2006 10:43 AM

Evidence points to Ted Williams getting much more love in retirement that in his playing days in Boston.

SteveJRogers Sep 21 2006 11:14 AM

Very true, especially from the Knights In The Pressbox

Valadius Sep 21 2006 11:23 AM

Rickey Henderson is going in as an A.

Yancy Street Gang Sep 21 2006 11:29 AM

He should.

Edgy DC Sep 21 2006 11:56 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Sep 21 2006 12:12 PM

Valadius wrote: Rickey Henderson is going in as an A. That's not really my point. And I don't think a particular insignia on one's hat means he's "going in as" that player. That snapshot does not re-define the entirety of the career. My point is that the Yankees would take the association with his legacy, if they could. And if the time comes to salute the 1985 Yankees, Rickey and Winfield will be numbers two and three in the program. And any other associations they can do with the "best leadoff hitter ever," they'll likely do. He scored 146 freaking runs with them in 1985.

Willets Point Sep 21 2006 12:04 PM

I think Rickey should go in as Rickey. With a big "Rickey 24" on his hat. Seriously.

Gwreck Sep 21 2006 01:36 PM

Paul LoDuca introducing Omar Minaya to his father. [url]http://pickmeup.mlblogs.com/pick_me_up_some_mets/2006/09/did_you_catch_t.html[/url]

Edgy DC Sep 21 2006 01:43 PM

For years, Izzy Duncan has dreamed of becoming New York's hottest art dealer. Now finally, her goal lies just within reach. As the director of the Emerson Bond Gallery, Izzy's expecting a whopping promotion--one she wants so badly, she's almost afraid to hope for it. Then Emerson Bond drops dead. Suddenly, Izzy's fabulously huggable boss Freddie, the adorable punk receptionist Kimmy, and devoted, well-meaning Izzy herself might all be out of a job. The timing couldn't be worse. Izzy's childhood nemesis has a wedding coming up--and there's no getting out of it. And Jamie, Izzy's best guy friend, finds his greatest success as a newspaper columnist by advising all of New York to revive the age-old ritual of the pick-up line-which seems to work for everyone in the city except Izzy. Izzy's happiness and professional future now lie in the hands of two men: one, the new insufferable star artist, who can't wait for any chance he gets to taunt Izzy mercilessly, but whose show will be her most crucial yet. And the other? The other is the new blood at the Bond Gallery, Avery Devon--the man so gorgeous, she can't even speak to him. The man who, if she's really, really lucky, will teach her all about the art of love...and not just in her dreams.