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Where have all the 20 game winners gone?

SteveJRogers Sep 24 2006 09:32 PM

Johan Santana and Chien-Ming Wang are tied with 18 wins, leading the Majors and unless Ron Gardenhire suddenly becomes Gene Mauch in order to overtake the Tigers for the Division this will be the very first non-work stoppage shortened season (1981, 1994, 1995) that no one in MLB will have won 20 games. Incredible. Probably more indictive of the increase in specilization than it says about the dearth of pitching period in the majors. I've never actually belived the "Oh X, Y and Z are probably the last guys to win 300" opinion pieces (especially those touting Don Sutton and Phil Niekro's enshrinement into Cooperstown against those like Tommy John, Jim Kaat and Bert Blyleven) but I'm starting to wonder. Right now Glavine and Johnson are knocking on 300's door. Clearly Cy Young is safe for a few more decades! Active with over 150 as of this moment Clemens 348-177 Maddux 331-203 Glavine 289-190 Johnson 280-147 Mussina 238-134 Wells 229-148 Moyer 215-166 Rogers 207-137 Martinez 206-91 Schilling 206-138 Smoltz 191-137 Pettitte 185-104 Appier 169-137 (active according to MLB) Oh sure guys like Oswalt and Zito are still young enough to probably hang around and get to 300 and beyond, but then again I guess Kerry Wood and Mark Prior are still the poster children of pitching promises going to pot (glad Gen K is off that particular hook)

Gwreck Sep 24 2006 09:57 PM

Out of all the baseball records -- 56, 2,632, 130, 110, etc. -- 511 is still the least likely to ever be broken. I think comparing Zito to Wood/Prior is a mistake however. Different pitching styles, different career paths, different ages.

metirish Sep 24 2006 09:58 PM

Winning 20 games is not easy of course,how many 20 game win seasons did Seaver have?,or Koufax...again it's not easy.

SteveJRogers Sep 24 2006 10:00 PM

Gwreck wrote: Out of all the baseball records -- 56, 2,632, 130, 110, etc. -- 511 is still the least likely to ever be broken. I think comparing Zito to Wood/Prior is a mistake however. Different pitching styles, different career paths, different ages. I didn't mean to compare, that was more of a general "You never know" statement and using Wood/Prior as the latest examples

SteveJRogers Sep 24 2006 10:03 PM

metirish wrote: Winning 20 games is not easy of course,how many 20 game win seasons did Seaver have?,or Koufax...again it's not easy. True, Seaver with 5, though none after 1977 and Koufax with only 3 during his heyday. I'd wager Koufax's 27 in '66 is the most a modern (since the turn of the 1900's) pitcher has won in his swan song year?

Edgy DC Sep 24 2006 11:47 PM

I don't think the wane of 20-game winners should necessarily lead to the wane of 300-game winners. I hope less emphasis is put on pitching wins (at least, as they're currently defined) as we go forward.

Johnny Dickshot Sep 25 2006 06:03 AM

Hoss Radbourn = Safe.

Willets Point Sep 25 2006 06:04 AM

...long time passing.

Edgy DC Sep 25 2006 08:16 AM

The funny thing about Old Hoss is that he isn't quite safe enough. For a long time, his 1884 was listed as baseball's only 60-win season. One day, I woke up, checked, and he had 59. Nobody called me to tell me why. I think the Cy Young Award should be called the Charles Radbourn Award. Nobody ever had a career like Cy, but we're awarding an outstanding season, and nobody ever had a season like Hoss.

Johnny Dickshot Sep 25 2006 09:05 AM

The story, beifly: In 1884, the Providence Grays (NL) had 2 pitchers, Radbourn and a guy named Sweeney, and Sweeney bolted for another team misdeason, possibly because Radbourne was a jerk. Radbourn said he'd do all the pitching in exchange for a bonus and free agency after the season, if the Grays won the pennant. Some position players filled in from time to time, but Radbourn finished with 73 starts, 678-some innings (1.2 IP short of the record) and 59 wins -- including every one of a 19-game win streak during which Providence clinched the pennant. He then started and won each game of a 3-game sweep of the AA champion NEW YORK METS in the "first" World Series. He got his $2,000 bonus.

MFS62 Sep 25 2006 09:29 AM

Please refresh my menory - what are the "130" and "110" records that were mentioned? Later

Yancy Street Gang Sep 25 2006 09:31 AM

I think 130 is stolen bases, by Rickey Henderson. I'm also drawing a blank on 110. I'd add 194 to that list. (I think that's the number of RBI Hack Wilson had in 1930.)

soupcan Sep 25 2006 09:33 AM

Willets Point wrote: ...long time passing. Beat me by 3 hours.

Edgy DC Sep 25 2006 09:47 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Sep 25 2006 11:01 AM

Johnny Dickshot wrote: The story, beifly: In 1884, the Providence Grays (NL) had 2 pitchers, Radbourn and a guy named Sweeney, and Sweeney bolted for another team misdeason, possibly because Radbourne was a jerk. Radbourn said he'd do all the pitching in exchange for a bonus and free agency after the season, if the Grays won the pennant. Some position players filled in from time to time, but Radbourn finished with 73 starts, 678-some innings (1.2 IP short of the record) and 59 wins -- including every one of a 19-game win streak during which Providence clinched the pennant. He then started and won each game of a 3-game sweep of the AA champion NEW YORK METS in the "first" World Series. He got his $2,000 bonus. But who was the researcher who went back and took away that 60th win from Hoss and gave it to Sweeney, or Harry Arundel? What were the circumstances there? http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/PRO/1884.shtml

Johnny Dickshot Sep 25 2006 09:59 AM

I don't know the details of that. I'll check it against my Total baseball when I get home. He still has 6-game lead on the next guy.

Edgy DC Sep 25 2006 11:08 AM

Wikipedia has an answer: Statstical notes on the 1884 season There is a discrepancy in Radbourn's victory total in 1884. The classic MacMillan Baseball Encyclopedia, as well as the current Sporting News Baseball Record Book both credit Radbourn with 60 wins (against 12 losses). Other sources, including the baseball reference and baseball almanac links shown here, give Radbourn "only" 59 wins. Some older sources (such as his tombstone plaque) counted as high as 62. There is no dispute about the 678 2/3 innings pitched, only over the manner in which victories were assigned to pitchers. That can be a contentious issue, as the rules in the early years allowed more latitude to the official scorer than they do today. Providence's won-lost record in 1884 was 84-28. The stats for the Grays' pitchers: Charlie Radbourn 60-12 (MacMillan) or 59-12 (baseball-reference.com) Charlie Sweeney 17-8 Ed Conley 4-4 Joe "Cyclone" Miller 2-2 (MacMillan) or 3-2 (baseball-reference.com) Paul Radford 0-2 Harry Arundel 1-0 John Cattanach 0-0 Paul Hines 0-0 Arthur Irwin 0-0 According to at least two writeups], in the game of July 28 at Philadelphia, Miller pitched five innings and left trailing 4-3. Providence then scored 4 in the top of the sixth. Radbourn came in to relieve, and pitched shutout ball over the final four innings, while the Grays went on to score 4 more and to win the game 11-4. The official scorer decided that Radbourn had pitched the most effectively, and awarded him the win. Under the rules of the day, the scorekeeper's decision certainly made sense. However, under modern scoring rules, Miller would get the win, being the "pitcher of record" when he left the game, and Radbourn would have been credited with a save, for (ironically enough) closing the game and "pitching effectively for 3 or more innings." Some modern statisticians have retroactively awarded the win to Miller. This may be a disputable practice, but it provides the explanation for the 59 vs. the 60 wins for Radbourn in 1884. They also have a great baseball card showing him doing a head-first slide in the parlor of the photography studio.

Willets Point Sep 25 2006 11:11 AM

soupcan wrote: ="Willets Point"]...long time passing. Beat me by 3 hours. Next time you'll catch me.

Valadius Sep 25 2006 12:00 PM

Hack Wilson had 191 RBI.

metsmarathon Sep 25 2006 01:25 PM

walter johnson 110 career shutouts. 2nd place was pete alexander with 90. roger clemens is 26th with 46 the big uint is 57th with 37 maddux is 71st with 35 and the next closest active player is tom glavine with 24.

Edgy DC Sep 25 2006 01:27 PM

Where have all the 60-game winners gone?

Yancy Street Gang Sep 25 2006 01:30 PM

Valadius wrote: Hack Wilson had 191 RBI. Until recently it was 190, wasn't it? I think they added one just a few years ago.