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Veterans Committee HOF ballot
| Vic Sage Sep 28 2006 05:45 PM |
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nominees just announced:
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| SteveJRogers Sep 28 2006 05:52 PM Re: Veterans Committee HOF ballot |
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Dick Allen
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| MFS62 Sep 28 2006 05:58 PM |
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Dick Allen and Jim Kaat are the only ones I'd vote for on this list.
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| KC Sep 28 2006 06:10 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Sep 28 2006 06:20 PM |
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I change my mind a lot about the HOF, but today I'm kinda in the "hey, if you
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| Mr. Zero Sep 28 2006 06:12 PM |
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a bunch of these guys put up better ten year stretches than Dave Winfield ever dreamed of. Dick Allen, statistically speaking, should be in. a case might be made for Tony Oliva, though he'd be penalized for his 13 year career. Kaat was solid for a long time, but had only a few terrific seasons. O'Doul as an emissary of the game? Unless he's the namesake for that non-alcohlic beer.
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| Nymr83 Sep 28 2006 06:30 PM |
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Torre SHOULD get in when he retires as a manager. none of these other guys belong in and the hall is just too watered down as is.
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| Yancy Street Gang Sep 28 2006 06:55 PM |
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I won't argue that Gil Hodges deserves it, but I hope he gets in.
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| Frayed Knot Sep 28 2006 07:07 PM |
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My best argument would go for Ron Santo
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| Johnny Dickshot Sep 28 2006 09:59 PM |
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Santo and Allen. Kaat maybe?
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| soupcan Sep 28 2006 10:12 PM Re: Veterans Committee HOF ballot |
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Gil Hodges, Jim Kaat, Mickey Lolich & Maury Wills get a vote from me.
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| Johnny Dickshot Sep 28 2006 10:15 PM |
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Wills alreday got an MVP he didn't deserve, now we wanna enshrine him?
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| soupcan Sep 28 2006 10:18 PM |
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I've always had a soft spot for and stolen bases and coke heads.
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| Edgy DC Sep 28 2006 10:21 PM |
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Yeah, I'm down on Wills.
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| cooby Sep 28 2006 10:23 PM |
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I would vote for Torre as a manager too, we can hardly deny him that
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| ScarletKnight41 Sep 28 2006 10:26 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Sep 29 2006 07:12 AM |
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Yupİ
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| Valadius Sep 29 2006 01:29 AM |
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The following are in in my book:
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| Yancy Street Gang Sep 29 2006 07:20 AM |
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And this is why the Hall of Fame is so diluted. Putting all those guys in would bring it closer to being the Hall of the Very Good.
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| Edgy DC Sep 29 2006 08:36 AM |
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1971 was a great year for Lolich.
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| RealityChuck Sep 29 2006 08:58 AM |
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Would vote in:
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| Farmer Ted Sep 29 2006 09:06 AM |
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Jim Kaat and Luis Tiant go on my ballot.
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| Johnny Dickshot Sep 29 2006 09:15 AM |
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A phony curse isn't a good enough reason for induction, and of course Mays is remembered for something even worse. He was a great pitcher without a doubt, though I'm not good at handicapping pitching Hallworthiness. I'm plowing through THE PITCH THAT KILLED right now -- has anyone else read this? Terrific story that ought to be made into a movie.
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| Frayed Knot Sep 29 2006 09:16 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Sep 29 2006 09:17 AM |
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Let's make lists of who should NOT go in.
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| Yancy Street Gang Sep 29 2006 09:17 AM |
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Bruce Boisclair.
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| soupcan Sep 29 2006 09:27 AM |
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Bruce Boisclair should be there as 'ugliest Major Leaguer ever'
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| Edgy DC Sep 29 2006 09:29 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Sep 29 2006 10:22 AM |
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OK, I'll bite.
Although probably beset by emotional issues, was also one of the great clubhouse cancers of his time. Already mentioned was his short career.
Big if.
So was Rey-O.
Agreed (although there's a strong case that he was fading so fast so as to suggest he would go on to detract from his legacy). But the issue is "should" he be in, not "he would if." We're working with another big if here.
I like Lyle. He wasn't dominant like the later relievers with the shorter workload, but he was pretty dominant for a lefty at Fenway, with the bigger workload. (God paid him back and sent him to Yankee Stadium for the heart of his career.) I don't Hall-of-Fame like him though. Three All Star teams? Put in Gossage, then we'll talk. I like hybrid cases like Torre's and Hodges'.
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| MFS62 Sep 29 2006 09:42 AM |
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No. No. A thousand times no. Clemente (an analogy some Munson supporters use) was put in because at the time of his death he had already accumulated enough credentials for enshrinement. At the time of his death, based on roughly similar career at bats, Munson's career totals were similar to an American League first baseman named Bruce Bochte. No, not catcher Bruce Bochy, Bruce Bochte. Who? http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/B/Bruce-Bochte.shtml That's my point. Here are Munson's stats; http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/M/Thurman-Munson.shtml They may not be an exact match, but they are close enough. Would you vote for Bruce Bochte for the Hall of Fame? Hardly. Then Munson doesn't belong either. And, Munson didn't have a great throwing arm. In fact, when he knew the runner would have beaten the throw, he more often than not just held onto the ball. If he had played in the run-run NL of the time, he would have been moved to first base and been just another player like... Bruce Bochte. Later
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| Mr. Zero Sep 29 2006 10:00 AM |
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Oliva didn't not hit home runs. hit like 220, and 32 one year. but he really played only 11 full seasons out of an 13-14 year career. not even 2000 hits.
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| Edgy DC Sep 29 2006 10:25 AM |
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No, they're not.
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| Edgy DC Sep 29 2006 10:27 AM |
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Which isn't to say that I support Munson's enshrinement. I don't.
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| MFS62 Sep 29 2006 10:41 AM |
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I was looking for players with similar career at bats. I used a hard copy of Baseball Encyclopedia. I should have remembered Baseballreference.com Here is their list of similar catchers. I don't think you would think of any of them as Hall of Famers as players either: Terry Steinbach (903) Jason Kendall (902) Tim McCarver (898) Manny Sanguillen (896) Jack Clements (890) Smoky Burgess (883) Terry Kennedy (881) Wally Schang (878) Elston Howard (875) Sandy Alomar (873) Most basebal fans have heard of most, it not all, of them. But when arguing this issue (Munson to the Hall) with Yankee fans, the mention of Bruce Bochte usually stops them in their tracks. And that is a good thing. :) Later
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| Edgy DC Sep 29 2006 10:51 AM |
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Except it's not a good analogy. Any more than denying a linebacker admission to the Pro Football Hall of Fame because he had a comparable number of interceptions as a mediocre defensive back.
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| MFS62 Sep 29 2006 10:58 AM |
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Yes, you know that and I know that. But you should see the looks on their faces. To paraphrase something once said about NY Net player Wendell Ladner: Most Yankee fans don't know the meaning of the words "a Yankee who doesn't belong in the Hall of Fame". Of course, they don't know the meanings of a lot of other words, either. Later
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| metirish Sep 29 2006 10:59 AM |
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Really if you have to argue for players to get in then they don't deserve it.
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| MFS62 Sep 29 2006 11:03 AM |
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That's one way to look at it, and I've read that many people use that as a "test". Edgy and I are in agreement that he doesn't belong. The discussion is about my methodology. Later
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| seawolf17 Sep 29 2006 11:39 AM |
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Hell, Kevin McReynolds hit 211 home runs. Doesn't mean he's a HOFer. No on Oliva. (I know, I know, it's a terrible comparison. I'm just a big McReynolds fan, and this is the first and only time he'll ever be mentioned in a HoF discussion of any kind.) I'd say yes on Dick Allen, but that brings up the issue of Jim Rice, who should be in already. No Rice, no Allen. I guess Torre's in as a manager, although I don't like it. I'd say we're being overly sentimental and New York-biased on Hodges, but I guess he has a case. He was too far before my time for me to argue one way or the other. I guess you could make a Hodges-like case for Santo too; I don't know. No Lyle without Gossage, no Munson ever. Everyone else on the list is a no for me.
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| Edgy DC Sep 29 2006 11:44 AM |
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I don't agree with that. There will always be borderline cases. There always has been. It's just that the borderline has moved.
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| TheOldMole Sep 29 2006 11:58 AM |
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No, he wasn't. Ordonez played in a era of great shortstops...unfortunately, he wasn't even the best shortstop in New York. Marion had 11 years as a starter, was never much of a hitter, was on the all-star team 8 of those 11 years, MVP once (1944 -- a war year). He wasn't the best shortstop of his era -- PeeWee Reese was. But he was probably the second best in the National League. His similar batters list is kinda painful... 1. Rafael Ramirez (937) 2. Scott Fletcher (934) 3. Mike Bordick (924) 4. Leo Durocher (920) * 5. Billy Rogell (918) 6. Art Fletcher (915) 7. Tom Herr (914) 8. Billy Jurges (914) 9. Rick Burleson (914) 10. Johnny Logan (912) The best of those is Johnny Logan, to whom he's least similar. I would have thought on memory (and not even I am old enough to really remember him) that Marion was deserving of Hall of Fame consideration, but the numbers say otherwise. Who were the other shortstops of that era? Let's take 1948 -- sufficiently postwar, not into the 50s yet. National League: Pee Wee Reese Buddy Kerr Marty Marion Alvin Dark Stan Rojek Virgil Stallcup Eddie Miller Roy Smalley You'd give Slats a solid second. American League: Eddie Joost Cass Michaels Vern Stephens Lou Boudreau Eddie Pellagrini Johnny Lipon Phil Rizzuto Mark Christman Now he's not even close. The Scooter, Vern Stephens and Lou Boudreau would all rank ahead of him. Eddie Joost would be pretty close to his equal. If you go back to the early part of Marion's career, which is more work than I intend to do, you had shortstops like Luke Appling and Arky Vaughan, who were his betters.
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| MFS62 Sep 29 2006 11:59 AM |
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The borderline has become more mathematical recently. There are some magic numbers that, in the minds of many voters, players have to attain to warrant consideration. They seem to be moving away from the statement "Dominated his position in the era in which he played". There are some players on that list who I feel would be in the Hall if the voters paid heed to that statement. That doesn't mean that I would vote for them, but that they shouldn't be dismissed out of hand.
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| Vic Sage Sep 29 2006 12:01 PM Re: Veterans Committee HOF ballot |
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Joe Torre - yes (only as both a player & manager)
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| TheOldMole Sep 29 2006 12:53 PM |
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Gil Hodges yes, Roger Maris yes, Minnie Minoso maybe,
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| Frayed Knot Sep 29 2006 12:57 PM |
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NYers are likely to be disappointed as many of them fail to realize that getting Gil Hodges into the HoF is NOT a cause-celebe outside of this area.
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| metsguyinmichigan Sep 29 2006 10:00 PM |
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You gotta vote for Santo. His induction is long overdue. And Dick Allen was a lot better than he gets credit for. The Rice comparision is valid, they both should go in.
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| Edgy DC Sep 29 2006 10:26 PM |
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What's the case for Maris?
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| SteveJRogers Sep 29 2006 11:10 PM |
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Chalk that up to either classic MFY (and New York) overhype as well as a misguided belief that the FAME portion of Hall of Fame should be the determining factor above all others. Like a guy saying Jose Canseco should be in over Craig Biggio! (Yes sadly THAT was a comparision made on a sports talk radio program) Should be stated with that argument, what happens when flame is fleeting? Do you start doing straw polls of Copperstown visitors and start removing inshrinees if an overwhelming portion don't have a clue who they are? The fact that people today know more about Randy Johnson, or even Lance Johnson than Walter Johnson means The Big Train's plaque gets taken out? Basically the achievements of Maris gets trumped over his actual performance. Back-to-Back MVPs, the 61 homers, THE guy during that run of Yankee years, tremendous OFer, ect. Not really saying anything about Roger's carrer except that he was, at one point, a damn big star in the game. I'm sure Maris will get more steam among media and fans as the years go on, especially as the steriod era players start getting elligable for the writers ballot. Goes hand-in-hand with the notion of resetting the Single Season HR record right back to his '61 in '61
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| Edgy DC Sep 29 2006 11:29 PM |
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I think you're overstating the fame argument. More likely they simply recognize what he briefly was and don't mind the lack of an extended legacy. I do.
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| SteveJRogers Sep 29 2006 11:39 PM |
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I've heard AN argument made for putting Don Larsen in the Hall based soley on his WS Perfecto! No clue if the author of said argument was a MFY fan, or even knew that Larsen had a pretty darn good record overall in the postseason (not that it mattered, but it would augment a Larsen "argument" if based soley on his postseason performances)
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