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Torre Canned ?

*62 Oct 08 2006 01:29 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Oct 10 2006 07:20 AM

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb Pinella likely.

SteveJRogers Oct 08 2006 01:34 PM

RMPL! Its in several different threads here, specifically the MFY-Tigers thread

vtmet Oct 08 2006 03:55 PM

Everything that I've seen so far is "LIKELY"...which is not quite the same as "HAS BEEN DONE"...how many years in a row have I seen "likely" to only see the statue back in the dugout...however, I can hardly wait for Yankee Anarchy...

Yancy Street Gang Oct 08 2006 05:49 PM

Isn't there a kind of moratorium on hiring and firing managers while a postseason series is in progress? If Torre's about to be canned, it would have to be between the end of the NLDS and the start of the ALCS. And if there's no gap between the two (that is, if the Cardinals and Padres play on Monday night) then they'd have to wait until both LCS series ended and before the World Series started. Or is that rule no longer in effect?

TheOldMole Oct 08 2006 06:43 PM

Yeah, but George may be weighing "baseball protocol" on one hand, "steal the back page from the Mets" on the other.

Frayed Knot Oct 08 2006 06:43 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Oct 08 2006 06:45 PM

="SteveJRogers"]RMPL! Its in several different threads here, specifically the MFY-Tigers thread Relax! There's nothing wrong with starting new threads on major stories, particularly when some existing discussion of it is buried on page 23 in some 24-page thread. ]Isn't there a kind of moratorium on hiring and firing managers while a postseason series is in progress? Yes, and the reason that exists is due to Steinbrenner who once fired/hired his manager on the day of Game 7 of the WS - something he did (in the minds of almost everyone) for the sole purpose of stealing the headlines from baseball's crowning day. -- if I can't win I'm going to hold my breath and then take all my toys and go home So timing the announcement for Monday, if nothing's going on, is certainly possible - although little can be done to keep leaks from intruding on active days. Having said all that, this certainly isn't a done deal. Don't get too caught up simply because multiple outlets are reporting a story when, in fact, several of those outlets (Yahoo, ESPN) are doing nothing more than citing the original source - in this case The Daily News. And even the NYDN seems to have softened its language from "is likely to" down to "could" since it was originally quoted.

ScarletKnight41 Oct 08 2006 06:44 PM

The whole protocol evolved when George blew his stack that Bobby V's firing stole the headlines from the MFYs.

Edgy DC Oct 08 2006 06:55 PM

I think this goes back long before then. Eighties-times, when Yankee managers were being canned like beets.

ScarletKnight41 Oct 08 2006 06:56 PM

Edgy DC wrote: I think this goes back long before then. Eighties-times, when Yankee managers were being canned like beets. But I don't think that anyone complained about the timing of such announcements until the Valentine Massacre.

Edgy DC Oct 08 2006 06:58 PM

Frayed Knot suggests otherwise. Valentine was fired just after the season, wasn't he?

ScarletKnight41 Oct 08 2006 07:04 PM

Yes, he was. After the regular season, and George was miffed that the headlines were about the firing and not about the MFY's division series that day.

RealityChuck Oct 08 2006 09:07 PM

It's all Torre's fault. After all, he was the one person on the roster who wasn't hitting.

SteveJRogers Oct 08 2006 09:21 PM

Edgy DC wrote: Frayed Knot suggests otherwise. Valentine was fired just after the season, wasn't he? Well Buck was just fired right as the playoffs were happening rather than the day before the playoffs started

ScarletKnight41 Oct 08 2006 09:33 PM

The point is that managers being fired after the season was never an issue until George felt that Bobby V's firing stole the back page from the MFYs that day.

dinosaur jesus Oct 08 2006 09:36 PM

RealityChuck wrote: It's all Torre's fault. After all, he was the one person on the roster who wasn't hitting. Well, no, he wasn't the only one.

SteveJRogers Oct 08 2006 10:06 PM

ScarletKnight41 wrote: The point is that managers being fired after the season was never an issue until George felt that Bobby V's firing stole the back page from the MFYs that day. BTW could you imagine if this was football, where its too your advantage to have your ducks in a row by at LEAST late January with a new coach in place since the combines and such takes place in Feb "THEY"RE STEALING THE PRESS FOR OUR PLAYOFF RUN! GEORGE IS GETTING ANGRY!" "Uh, they need to start implenting their new systems right away..."

Frayed Knot Oct 08 2006 10:12 PM

="ScarletKnight41"]The point is that managers being fired after the season was never an issue until George felt that Bobby V's firing stole the back page from the MFYs that day. It's not about firing managers after the season; that's when most managers are fired. But the edict from the commish's office about timing a change in a way that detracts from the national or local interest in the playoffs & (especially) WS games stems not from George claiming it was done to him but from he himself pulling one of his 'Billy Returns' switcheroos on the day of Game 7 for the sole purpose of deflecting NYC attention from a WS in which his team wasn't involved.

ScarletKnight41 Oct 08 2006 10:16 PM

I'm not saying you're wrong, but that's not how I remember it happening.

Johnny Dickshot Oct 08 2006 10:18 PM

That was a Ms. Metly response, no?

ScarletKnight41 Oct 08 2006 10:19 PM

No - if you give me the documentation, I'll reconsider. I have a memory of George going ballistic over the timing of Bobby V's firing and Bud reacting to the hissy fit.

Edgy DC Oct 08 2006 10:25 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Oct 09 2006 10:34 AM

Agreed with Frayed Knot. This goes back to the eighties. The rule exists not because of an indiscretion Steinbrenner claimed was committed against his team, but because of an indiscretion that commissioner's office folks felt he committed. That he rather self-servingly claimed to be a victim of the shenanigans he mastered goes to show the self-serving, self-serving, self-justifying world in inhabits, at least publicly. That his actions were on the night of championship games, not the day before a playoff series began and the day after the season ended, when most managers tend to get it, may have been lost on him in his zeal to be a victim, or maybe he rather just thought people were stupid.

Johnny Dickshot Oct 08 2006 10:25 PM

No one is disputing the Valentine incident; the topic in dispute is "where it all started."

Frayed Knot Oct 08 2006 10:27 PM

I have no doubt that George threw a fit over it. I don't specifically remember it but he's certainly thrown bigger fits over lesser actions. It's just that this notion that MLB restrictions on manager movement started because of that just isn't true. They've been in place since long before then.

ScarletKnight41 Oct 08 2006 10:31 PM

Apparently they weren't enforced all that much before that time, though.

Edgy DC Oct 08 2006 10:43 PM

I've got October 20, 1987, Steinbrenner firing Pinella and hiriing Martin in between games 2 and 3 of the World Series.

ScarletKnight41 Oct 08 2006 10:48 PM

And what action was taken in response?

Edgy DC Oct 08 2006 11:46 PM

"During the last two World Series, Steinbrenner announced Pinella's hiring and his rehiring. Recently, a source close to the Yankees said, Commissioner Peter Ueberroth asked Steinbrenner not to make any managerial move during this World Series so that he would not detract from the games. Steinbrenner, the source added, was prepared to adhere to Ueberroth's request but changed his mind after three general managers were dismissed or resigned during postseason games." ---NYT "The other surprise was timing. Steinbrenner had last fired a manager --- it was Martin --- on the day of game seven of the 1985 World Series. That move knocked the World Series off the covers of the New York tabloids, and sources say Commissioner Peter Ueberroth urged Steinbrenner to wait until after the World Series to make this move." --- Washington Post By the time Lou Pinella (who Martin had replaced and who subsequently replaced Martin mid-season 1988) was fired during the post-season of 1988, Steinbrenner was under new rules, and had to call the commissioner's office to ask for permission to announce the change during a five hour window on an off-day in between games two and three of the Mets/Dodgers championship series. (Post, 10/7/1988)

Rotblatt Oct 09 2006 09:56 AM

[url=http://www.nj.com/columns/ledger/graziano/index.ssf?/base/columns-0/1160374033134030.xml&coll=1]This[/url] is an amazing article. It says that maybe Torre should be fired, but Pinella definitely shouldn't be hired because A-Rod likes him. Amazing!

Johnny Dickshot Oct 09 2006 10:04 AM

I look at this headline and see Torre Caned. Like they'd do in Singapore.

ScarletKnight41 Oct 09 2006 10:05 AM

Johnny Dickshot wrote: I look at this headline and see Torre Caned. Like they'd do in Singapore. I thought I was the only one who read it like that.

cooby Oct 09 2006 10:05 AM

Arod is probably wishing he had never left Seattle

silverdsl Oct 09 2006 10:19 AM

I can't stand Pinella, so I'm going to be very unhappy if he's the next manager. I highly doubt that any other manager could have gotten a different outcome. There's zero that Torre can do to get the players to hit or Jaret Wright to not suck. Torre is far from a perfect manager - he could be a lot better when it comes to the bullpen and some of his other decisions are puzzling, but no manager is perfect and he's guided the team to the post-season every year he's been manager. He can only do the best with the players that he's been given.

Edgy DC Oct 09 2006 10:41 AM

I don't think there's nothing he could have done. (He could have given a player an awesome batting tip that locked him in.) I just think what a manager typically brings to a team is nebulous, ephemeral, and hard to isolate. Therefore you credit the guys you want to credit with it, and you deny the guys you want to deny, largely based on recent results. I don't hate Pinella, I guess, I just think he's terrifically over-sold, and based on his old guy rambling on TV, I think the game has passed him by. But that won't matter to Steinbrenner, whom the game passed by around 1974.

dinosaur jesus Oct 09 2006 10:55 AM

ScarletKnight41 wrote: ="Johnny Dickshot"]I look at this headline and see Torre Caned. Like they'd do in Singapore. I thought I was the only one who read it like that. Jesus. I was going to say the same thing.

ABG Oct 09 2006 10:56 AM

I felt like this series was Torre's worst managing job. A hallmark of his tenure has not been to panic, and yet after one one-run loss he completely shuffles his lineup? Then before elimination, he does so to an even greater degree? Very out of character.

cooby Oct 09 2006 04:44 PM

I like Joe Torre. I think it would be great if the Red Sox hired him and he won about 110 games and left the Yankees in the dust.

*62 Oct 09 2006 09:14 PM

And twenty-four hours later he's still there. All those news services may have jumped the gun.

Frayed Knot Oct 09 2006 11:36 PM

a) nobody really 'jumped the gun' because no one ever said it was a done deal, only that it was likely b) the only one who even said it was likely was a piece in 'The Daily News'. "All those news services" weren't independently reporting anything, they were merely citing and repeating the DN report. That's not the same as 3 or 4 different outlets each reporting that they received the same info What's driving this thing is the idea that George lusts after Lou and that Lou won't be available unless they act real soon seeing as he'll have plenty of other suitors and isn't going to blow them all off just on the chance that the NYY job will still be his for the asking a year from now when Torre's contract is slated to run out.

Bunt the First Two Oct 09 2006 11:45 PM

Frayed Knot wrote: a) nobody really 'jumped the gun' because no one ever said it was a done deal, only that it was likely Well, let's be fair. *62 jumped the gun.

vtmet Oct 09 2006 11:52 PM

I've been noticing a few articles where the headline claims something as a foregone conclusion...and then in the article itself, the wording is all iffy... On Torre getting fired, on Cliff being out for the rest of the playoffs, on WIllie's rotation...and then inside the article, you get things like "...cliff is going to do what ever he can to get back on the field in the post season...", etc...

Willets Point Oct 10 2006 01:06 AM

Damn liberal media!

*62 Oct 10 2006 07:19 AM

Bunt the First Two wrote: ="Frayed Knot"]a) nobody really 'jumped the gun' because no one ever said it was a done deal, only that it was likely Well, let's be fair. *62 jumped the gun. In all fairness, perhaps.

Frayed Knot Oct 10 2006 02:36 PM

Torre = UNcanned (although maybe not un-caned) So Madden used his access and ran with a "scoop" that turned out to be either: - George throwing a temper tantrum that eventually blew over and Billy M. jumped the gun by assuming it was a final decision OR - it was true at the time but George was talked out of it by those in the org loyal to Torre

metirish Oct 10 2006 02:38 PM

The Post no doubt will be happy as a pig in shit that they "scooped" the News today....

Willets Point Oct 10 2006 02:56 PM

="Frayed Knot"]Torre = UNcanned (although maybe not un-caned) So Madden used his access and ran with a "scoop" that turned out to be either: - George throwing a temper tantrum that eventually blew over and Billy M. jumped the gun by assuming it was a final decision OR - it was true at the time but George was talked out of it by those in the org loyal to Torre 3rd option - Yankees allowed the story to float in the media a couple of days to gauge fan/media/player reaction.

soupcan Oct 10 2006 03:01 PM

Torre on the FAN invokes the name of Rube Walker and gives Rube credit for making him aware of how important it is to 'take care' of pitchers early in Torre's managerial career

metirish Oct 10 2006 03:03 PM

What pitchers did Torre take care of?...he freaking abused his middle guys.