Master Index of Archived Threads
Daisuke Matsuzaka -Let The Bidding Begin.
metirish Oct 17 2006 04:03 PM |
|
Bobby V thinks the bidding will start at $20 mil.....Damn...
|
Johnny Dickshot Oct 17 2006 04:16 PM |
This "posting" thing is a joke. It doesn't appear to benefit the player at all, and certainly isn't generally equitable for all teams here.
|
Yancy Street Gang Oct 17 2006 04:20 PM |
Well, the Japanese team isn't trying to be equitable. They found a way to get a very high price.
|
Gwreck Oct 17 2006 04:23 PM |
I think Seattle is the most likely landing spot for this pitcher.
|
soupcan Oct 17 2006 04:42 PM |
-Steinbrenner may have the most valuable team in baseball but I highly doubt he is the wealthiest owner.
|
Rotblatt Oct 17 2006 04:47 PM |
I think we should go hog-wild with our bid. I mean, we're talking about a probable ace here, and there will be no aces on the market next year. To get comparable talent, you're probably talking about trading for Willis, and what would that cost us in terms of talent (a far harder asset to replace than money)?
|
ScarletKnight41 Oct 17 2006 04:54 PM |
You guys know I love Bobby. But I also remember how he thought that Kaz Matsui was a can't miss MLB star.
|
Nymr83 Oct 17 2006 04:56 PM |
250 pitches in a high school game? i'd like to know what these minor injuries were before i'd bid.
|
Edgy DC Oct 17 2006 04:57 PM |
Kaz Ishii was a probably ace also, but LA took a bath and a half on him.
|
Nymr83 Oct 17 2006 05:00 PM |
of course you just fator in the amount you posted in your calculations. so if you were going to offer him 30 million over 3 and you post 10 million you'll offer him 20 million over 3, if he doesnt like it he can stay in japan another year and the mets get their 10 million back right?
|
soupcan Oct 17 2006 05:09 PM |
I'd just hate it if the Mets won the bid with say 15-20 mil then signed the guy to a 3-4 year deal at 10-12 per and he turns out to be Joe Average-san.
|
smg58 Oct 17 2006 05:11 PM |
There's a difference between this guy and Ichiro, in the sense that the Mariners didn't really pay Ichiro a whole lot initially. This guy could command a bigger contract than Zito and cost another $20M on top of it.
|
Yancy Street Gang Oct 17 2006 06:32 PM |
The Mariners bid a huge amount.
|
Edgy DC Oct 17 2006 06:39 PM |
Nobody should be labeled "can't miss."
|
Willets Point Oct 17 2006 07:10 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Oct 17 2006 08:53 PM |
Sign Matsuzaka NOW!!!!
|
Frayed Knot Oct 17 2006 08:08 PM |
Theoretically at least, the contract you sign him for wouldn't need to be as high as a normal FA deal since, after you win the bid, he only has one team to bargain with and can't play your offer off against another like the Zitos of the world can.
|
smg58 Oct 17 2006 08:17 PM |
But at the very least, we'd have to beat what he could get in Japan. So how much is he worth over there?
|
Rotblatt Oct 17 2006 09:19 PM |
[url=http://japanesebaseball.com/players/player.jsp?PlayerID=1104]Matsuzaka Stats[/url]
|
Rotblatt Oct 17 2006 09:30 PM |
|
I think they typically pay top players around $5-$8M but I could be wrong. I've read that the expected salary for Matsuzaka would be between $8M - $12M per year for 3-4 years. To me, that's perfectly reasonable; it's the posting amount that's questionable, IMO. Again, though, it's only money, not prospects.
|
cleonjones11 Oct 18 2006 12:30 AM |
Maybe Warren Buffett and Bill Gates can buy him for us!
|
Edgy DC Oct 18 2006 12:36 AM |
Twenty million could buy a lot of prospects, I imagine.
|
A Boy Named Seo Oct 18 2006 12:38 AM |
From that blog:
|
Rotblatt Oct 23 2006 02:51 PM |
|
Matsuzaka is skipping out on the MLB/NPB All Star Series, which starts this November.
|
Yancy Street Gang Oct 23 2006 02:54 PM |
||
What kind of a reason is that? Doesn't he know that Omar only likes Hispanic guys?
That's probably true.
|
metsmarathon Oct 23 2006 04:08 PM |
||
marketing, kinda like ichiro and matsui presumably allow the M's and the mfy's (potential) revenue stream = (sorta) good reason.
|
Frayed Knot Oct 23 2006 04:19 PM |
Baseball America's Jim Callis weighs in:
|
Nymr83 Oct 23 2006 04:22 PM |
when you take into account the posting fee, i think zito/schimdt would be cheaper. how much cheaper is a question.
|
Frayed Knot Oct 23 2006 04:32 PM |
Well, considering that none of us has seen more than a few WBC innings from him it's kinda tough to answer that question.
|
Rotblatt Oct 23 2006 04:52 PM |
To me, Zito is the safe bet, because you know what to expect with him, but if the money's equal, I'd definitely do Matsuzaka. People have been raving about him for years (since 2003 over on Baseball Prospectus) and he's put up remarkable numbers in Japan.
|
metsmarathon Oct 23 2006 05:03 PM |
the posting fee doesn't count against the salary cap does it? somehow that has to factor into the discussion in some exceeedingly small way.
|
ScarletKnight41 Oct 23 2006 05:04 PM |
You have to figure that Zito being reunited with Rick Peterson would help his productivity.
|
Nymr83 Oct 23 2006 06:12 PM |
|
you mean the luxury tax? i dont think it does i think i'd go for zito myself, i'm scared that this guy could simply flop in the states. maybe he won't, but let it be someone else's problem especially with the shot-in-the-dark posting fee system.
|
smg58 Oct 24 2006 12:19 PM |
|
I'm leaning to Zito for the same reason. I also think that even the Zito of the past three seasons (or at least the past two) will do better than 3.75 in the National League.
|
Willets Point Oct 24 2006 12:32 PM |
|
Or a lot of meat.
|
metirish Oct 24 2006 04:26 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Oct 24 2006 04:33 PM |
I've been thinking,lets say the winning bid is $25 million,would his Japenese team put pressure on him to sign with that team,if he doesn't sign and plays another year in Japan then he can walk as a FA...his team gets nothing,right?
|
Yancy Street Gang Oct 24 2006 04:32 PM |
And I wonder if the Japanese team can give him a cut of the $25 million to make sure he signs with the American team.
|
metirish Oct 24 2006 04:34 PM |
Excellent point Yancy....they must think we are awful eegits.
|
holychicken Oct 24 2006 05:16 PM |
I know it is stupid but everytime this is discussed, I can't shake Kaz from mind and it scares the hell out of me.
|
Nymr83 Oct 24 2006 09:22 PM |
its a legitimate fear, theres alot of risk in bringing in a guy who hasn't played in the majors before and acting like he will suddenly be a veteran star.
|
metirish Oct 24 2006 09:42 PM |
Taguchi for St.Louis and the second baseman for the White Sox...rate them now.....
|
Nymr83 Oct 24 2006 09:49 PM |
taguchi 3...i dont really remember what the expectations were for the white sox secondbaseman, but based on his contract i'll call him a 3 as well
|
metirish Oct 24 2006 09:56 PM |
My main problem with this guy is that with the huge posting fee and then contract the pressure on him will be freaking huge..Zito has won 102 games in the bigs...I'd rather the Mets give him the big contract.
|
Johnny Dickshot Oct 24 2006 10:00 PM |
||
Because they're Japanese?
This is silly. 8 of 8 guys you mentioned had a MLB career, which probably beats "white people" or whatever other barely related subset you could come up with in terms of signed baseball players who meet or do not meet expectations. I don't think it's instructive to weigh where a player was born as an indicator of his ability to perform. Keep in mind also not all players from Japan are posted -- only those yet to acheive free agency there (9 seasons I believe)
|
Nymr83 Oct 24 2006 10:08 PM |
|
when i said "japanese players" i meant "players who are playing in the japanese baseball league" the fact that so far they have been ethnically japanese as well has nothing to do with it.
me neither, my point is about the leagues there and how highly thought of players who play there are when they seek to come here. in my opinion they are over-valued.
|
Nymr83 Oct 24 2006 10:09 PM |
|
the posting fee is reason number 1 to avoid the guy, yes. if it didnt exist i'd probably still give a slight edge to wanting Zito.
|
Willets Point Oct 24 2006 10:09 PM |
|
It need not be either/or. The Mets rotation needs a lot of help. The Mets have a lot of $$$. Why not both?
|
metirish Oct 24 2006 10:12 PM |
Ok Mr.Wilpon, sorry Mr.Willets..I'm down with that...
|
Johnny Dickshot Oct 24 2006 10:23 PM |
|
I dunno if it's fair even to consider modestly paid/expected of guys like Yoshii or Shinjo alongside big-money guys like Ichiro. Talent is talent.
|
Elster88 Oct 24 2006 10:24 PM |
You forget how much the man hated Kaz.
|
metirish Oct 24 2006 10:27 PM |
When did this posting bids start,was it with Ichiro...of all the players listed I would say Irabu,Ichiro and this guy came with very big expectations...Irabu was the next Nolan Ryan IIRC,then became the fat toad...
|
Edgy DC Oct 25 2006 09:30 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Oct 25 2006 12:57 PM |
My main concern with treating guys like Zito (and Glavine, for that matter), like an "ace," and paying them "ace money," is they have the pitchablity, but lack the fearsome stuff that allows them to just out-class the back half the lineup. There's typically only five or six such animals in the league.
|
Edgy DC Oct 25 2006 09:36 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Oct 25 2006 11:55 AM |
My thinking is that the only guy who believed Irabu was the next Nolan Ryan was the one who named him "Fat Toad." And he's welcome to his delusions, distoritions, and inability to see the spectrum of gray between those two extremes.
|
metsmarathon Oct 25 2006 09:47 AM |
nomo was pretty good there for a while.
|
Rotblatt Oct 25 2006 10:25 AM |
|||||||||
Hear, hear, Edgy. I totally agree with you. I do think it's instructive to look at how players from the Japanese League have done once they came over, although of course you have to do it in a systematic way. In [url=http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=1348]2002[/url], Davenport from Baseball Prospectus compared imports & exports' major league numbers versus their Japanese League numbers, and he came up with a .92-.94 modifier (1.00 is MLB), compared to .86 for AAA. After converting the pitcher's JL numbers, he tested the results against their MLB performance: Nomo
Irabu
Hasegawa
Yoshii
Sasaki
Kaz Ishii
converted JL#'s in 2001: 4.01 ERA, 1.26 WHIP MLB 2002-2005: 4.44 ERA, 1.53 WHIP Satoru Komiyama
converted JL#'s (1997 - 2001): 4.21 ERA, 1.22 WHIP MLB 2002: 5.61 ERA, 1.50 WHIP Akinori Otsuka
converted JL#'s (1997 - 2001): 2.89 ERA, 1.09 WHIP MLB 2004-2006: 2.43 ERA, 1.18 WHIP And the payoff, here's Matsuzaka's converted numbers from from 1999 - 2001: 3.59 ERA, 1.20 WHIP, 3.7 BB/9, 7.1 K/9, 0.9 HR/9 Keep in mind, he's gotten (a lot) better since 2001. So anyway, there are some hits and some misses in terms of pitcher exports, but by and large, the Davenport translations seem to be in the right ballpark. At any rate, it seems to me that it's easier to figure out how JL players will do in the majors than AAA pitchers . . .
|
Nymr83 Oct 25 2006 11:21 AM |
|||
and pretty bad there for awhile, which is why i labeled him "as expected"
even if thats true, you've already paid for the pitchers in your AAA system.
are you still deluding yourself into thinking that kaz came anywhere near expectations?
|
metsmarathon Oct 25 2006 11:33 AM |
so then, is it fair to say that your opinion on japanese players is "temper your expectations" as opposed to "avoid at all costs"?
|
Nymr83 Oct 25 2006 11:43 AM |
thats fair, but i'd have to add that i think theres alot more predictability in American veterans and i think the Japanese players have so far, if they haven't "broken even", been more likely to fail to meet expectations than to exceed them.
|
Yancy Street Gang Oct 25 2006 11:54 AM |
Of course, you can't tell how high it's going to be at the time you have to place your bid.
|
Rotblatt Oct 25 2006 12:52 PM |
|
Yes, but if we wanted, say, a "can't miss" prospect like Ryan Howard in 2003, what would it have taken to trade for him? David Wright? Jose Reyes? I'd rather give up money for a young, "can't miss" prospect than equivalent talent every time, and make no mistake, Matsuzaka is at least as highly regarded as Howard was a few years ago.
|
Nymr83 Oct 25 2006 12:55 PM |
|
another unfortunate part of this process to be sure. how much will Zito get? i'll say 13.5 per year and 4 years. is Matsuzaka worth more or less? he might have more of an upside but i think theres also a bigger risk of crash and burn. if we say he's worth the same amount how much can we really bid? even a "modest" $10 million bid means that you can then only offer the the player 11 million a year (more than that and you'd have been better off signing Zito hypothetically) i guess my point is just that with the posting fee thrown in there i dont see signing him turning out to be the best decision.
|
metsmarathon Oct 25 2006 01:07 PM |
of course, that scenario leaves you with two-three extra million dollars in the subsequent years of the deal with which to sign additional players. the risk is greater only for the first year than the subsequent ones.
|
Nymr83 Oct 25 2006 01:11 PM |
i was actually dividing the money up over the length of the contract.
|
metsmarathon Oct 25 2006 01:19 PM |
||||||||||||||||||
right.
see, if they are paid the same over the length of the contract, and using your contract and posting fee assumptions, then in the last three years, we can better afford the risk of matsuzaka than of zito.
|
MFS62 Oct 25 2006 01:42 PM |
As I said earlier, I've read that the posting fee may be as high as $20-30 million. And I expect Boras will negotiate a salary comparable to the $15 million per that he got for Chan Ho Park. So the lifetime cost of the contract (even at an amortized $20 million figure) would be far greater than what might be paid to Zito.
|
Edgy DC Oct 25 2006 01:45 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Oct 25 2006 06:48 PM |
I think the Mets access to Japanese living in Japan is far more important to them than their access to Japanese Americans living in New York. I think the marektability of Japanese players are worth more to virtually any team that way, except maybe San Francisco.
|
metirish Oct 25 2006 01:49 PM |
Do you think baseball teams think like that though, it's common in soccer for a team to buy a player because "he can sell replica shirts in asia",it's the main reason Real Madrid bought Beckam and not Ronaldihno,he was deemed"to ugly to sell shirts" by the then Real president.
|
MFS62 Oct 25 2006 01:50 PM |
Good point.
|
Yancy Street Gang Oct 25 2006 01:59 PM |
I'm not sure what the story is about telecasts in Japan, but if you look at the blackout rules for MLB.TV, Japan is mentioned explicitly.
|
MFS62 Oct 25 2006 02:05 PM |
I think Georgie cut a special deal between YES and a Japanese network. Or maybe MLB put in that rule as a result of what George did.
|
Frayed Knot Oct 25 2006 03:37 PM |
* I don't believe that individual teams can make TV deals in Japan
|
metsmarathon Oct 25 2006 03:40 PM |
but the merchandise sales would go to the team... as well as any royalties for using team imagery in marketing with the player.
|
metirish Oct 25 2006 03:42 PM |
BTW,Beltran has pulled out of the Japan tour.
|
Frayed Knot Oct 25 2006 03:55 PM |
|
Most merchandise money is treated as league-wide money also. The benefit to a team like the Yanx with a big Japanese star is more indirect than direct. If/when Japanese TV carries games they're more likely to be NYY (or Seattle) games which "spreads the brand name" to a new market.
|
Yancy Street Gang Oct 25 2006 04:02 PM |
When I'm in Japan next month I'll keep my eyes out for signs of Major League Baseball.
|
Willets Point Oct 25 2006 04:11 PM |
Last year in Venice I saw two different people in Mets gear.
|
Nymr83 Oct 25 2006 04:26 PM |
even if merchandise money money is pooled (which i didn't think it was) there has to be some benefit to the Mets of having people walking around Japan with Mets hats, creating a generation of Mets fans (or at least people who can identify the Mets before they could identify the Braves/Cardinals)
|
Nymr83 Oct 25 2006 04:27 PM |
|
somewhere in Aftica there will soon be a whole village of children wearing Mets 2006 National League Champions shirts.
|
Elster88 Oct 26 2006 01:58 AM |
So when are we going to sign this guy?
|
Yancy Street Gang Oct 26 2006 06:25 AM |
I think the bidding is going to happen "shortly after November 1."
|
metirish Oct 26 2006 08:28 AM |
I'm so jealous that you are going to Japan Yancy,I'd love to visit,watched "Lost in Translation" again recently...love that flick.
|
Edgy DC Oct 26 2006 08:31 AM |
I sure don't want to visit the Japan depicted in Lost in Translation.
|
MFS62 Oct 26 2006 09:46 AM |
|
Isn't that redundant? Or unnecessary? Later
|
Frayed Knot Oct 26 2006 09:51 AM |
It's just politcally incorrect.
|
MFS62 Oct 26 2006 10:00 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Oct 26 2006 10:02 AM |
|
Funny. IIRC, the use of the word "orient" as a verb does not mean how it is commonly used, as in "I will orient you in the proper way to do this" (probably a poor example). To orient someone is to bury them with their head toward the East. You don't say "oriention" when it should be "orientation". In the example I gave above, and the comment Yancy correctly made, the proper word is to orientate someone. But , if FK is correct about the new PC word, its all moot. They will be using that new term jutl like people now use the word impact because they don't know whether effect or affect should be used. Later
|
soupcan Oct 26 2006 10:00 AM |
|
Edgy DC Oct 26 2006 10:11 AM |
I guess there's not much but mutual mistrust stopping the interested parties from colluding --- getting together and opening their sealed bids to one-another, so the high bidder goes no more than a million over the next guy.
|
Yancy Street Gang Oct 26 2006 10:23 AM |
I don't either. Never underestimate the power of mutual mistrust.
|
Edgy DC Oct 26 2006 10:33 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Oct 26 2006 11:01 AM |
Or, on second thought, of retribution if the honor-bound Japanese get wind of it.
|
metirish Oct 26 2006 10:56 AM |
Is that a lot of innings for a 26 year old...1,402....
|
Nymr83 Oct 26 2006 04:32 PM |
back page of the Post today: "YENKEE" with Matsuzaka's picture... god i hope they lose the bid, i really dont care to who.
|
Yancy Street Gang Oct 26 2006 04:34 PM |
Or they can win it and have the guy pitch like a klutz.
|
seawolf17 Oct 26 2006 05:09 PM |
I'd rather what Yancy said. I want them to spend $80 million and find out he's Hideki Irabu.
|
SteveJRogers Oct 26 2006 05:22 PM |
|
Or the pitching version of Hideki Matsui (Irabu at least had moments)
|
Nymr83 Oct 26 2006 05:50 PM |
||
i hope you mean KAZ matsui, because Hideki has ended up pretty good
|
SteveJRogers Oct 26 2006 05:56 PM |
|||
Yeah I did mean Kaz D'OH!
|
metirish Oct 29 2006 05:58 PM |
Lads this fella has some nasty stuff
|
Edgy DC Oct 29 2006 08:13 PM |
The play of his team's defense was turning me off.
|
metirish Oct 29 2006 08:22 PM |
|
Yeah the defence is atrocious...there is some who think that there is no such thing as a gyro pitch....including H Matsui.
|
Rockin' Doc Oct 29 2006 08:49 PM |
His fastball tends to tail in on a right handed hitter. The "gyroball" looks like a very good 12 to 6 curveball. Nothing new that MLB hitters haven't seen before, but still a very good pitch.
|
metirish Oct 29 2006 08:51 PM |
Matsui claims "it's a good slider"...
|
Valadius Nov 02 2006 11:34 AM |
The Mariners are apparently out of the bidding, or so says their GM.
|
Yancy Street Gang Nov 02 2006 07:46 PM |
|
|
metirish Nov 02 2006 07:50 PM |
I wonder if this decision will impact Icirho and weather he wants to stay in Seattle.
|
Nymr83 Nov 02 2006 07:52 PM |
is Seattle bluffing?
|
metirish Nov 02 2006 07:57 PM |
Why would they bluff though?
|
Elster88 Nov 02 2006 08:19 PM |
I wonder how much the Nintendo guy is worth.
|
metirish Nov 04 2006 10:32 PM |
|
Interesting bit form a NYT article....
|
Frayed Knot Nov 05 2006 09:23 PM |
ESPN's Buster Olney put forth another shady arrangement; one where some team like Baltimore or Toronto puts in a sky-high bid and then low-ball the Mataszka/Boras team in negotiations. With no other teams to bargain with, he'd have to return to Japan and try again next year when he'd be a true FA. Meanwhile, the O's & Jays would keep him out of the hands of the Yanx & BoSox for at least one more year.
|
metirish Nov 05 2006 09:28 PM |
Good article,thanks for posting FK, good to see MLB is trying to change the posting system...
|
Edgy DC Nov 05 2006 09:29 PM |
If he fails to reach an agreement after X (30?) days, doesn't the posting team get to offer negotiating rights to the next highest bidder?
|
Frayed Knot Nov 05 2006 09:38 PM |
||
Nope, it's a one-shot, all-er-nuthin' deal. Matsuaka will play this year for the team that wins his MLB negotiating rights or with the JPL team that currently owns him.
Probably. But teams throwing wrenches into the works of opponents is nothing new.
|
metirish Nov 05 2006 09:39 PM |
I don't think so Edgy, apparently the winning bid has exclusive rights to chat with Boras and they can't reach an agreement then the bid is given back and he plays the next season in Japan.
|
Nymr83 Nov 05 2006 10:10 PM |
|
of course, this could backfire on them if the Japanese team decides it wants the money, they could tell Matsuzaka to accept the "low ball" offer with the understanding that they'll pay him 1/3-1/2 of the gigantic fee.
|
Yancy Street Gang Nov 06 2006 08:59 AM |
|
That doesn't seem right to me. The first syllable should rhyme with "Guy" The second syllable would be Sue and the third would be Ke with a short E. Dai Su Ke. No accent on any of the syllables. Of course, if he does come to America, announcers will probably mispronounce his name, and the mispronounciation will become standard.
|
Edgy DC Nov 06 2006 09:02 AM |
I imagine the "oo" in the second syllable is run so as to be largely inaudible to many ears.
|
Edgy DC Nov 06 2006 09:31 AM |
Interesting posting trivia:
|
Yancy Street Gang Nov 06 2006 09:37 AM |
|
Good point. I've found that the u sound ("oo") is the one that's most commonly silent.
|
Frayed Knot Nov 06 2006 09:43 AM |
As in when the pronounciation of Akinori Otsuka went from Oat-Soo-Ka when he first came over into Oats-Ka as Americans got corrected and the middle syllable got swallowed in the process.
|
MFS62 Nov 06 2006 10:17 AM |
||
My devious mind has come up with another possibility. For many years, Japanese Corporations have entered into clandestine agreements with each other to manipulate a market. For example, when FAX machines were new, the seven major manufacturers of those devices would meet on a quarterly basis and decide which company would be the first to introduce a new function/feature to the worldwide market. That said, it has been mentioned here (I think by Edgy) that there are tremendous marketing possibilities for an alliance between Japanese Companies (which already give their teams corporare names) and the US market. IIRC, this was in a discussion about the YES network cross-marketing Hidecki Matsui. So, I wouldn't be surprised if the Japanese team holding Matsuzaka's contract to tell one "preferred" large market US suitor, "I'll tell the bidders that the price is X. If you bid X+ 1 million, he's yours". It wouldn't be ethical. But it wouldn't be prescedent setting, either. Later
|
Frayed Knot Nov 06 2006 11:56 AM |
The Sunday NYTimes article that Irish quotes from above mentions several ways that "rigging" of the process could occur.
|
metirish Nov 08 2006 02:34 PM |
The deadline for bids is today at 5PM,I'm going to guess that the winning bid will be $28M.....
|
Yancy Street Gang Nov 08 2006 02:40 PM |
I wonder when we find out who won the rights. I read somewhere that we might find out today, but other things I've read indicate that it might be as many as four days until we learn which team bid highest.
|
metirish Nov 08 2006 02:41 PM |
Yeah the Lions have four days to accept or reject,kinda cool if we found out tonight that the Mets had won the bid.
|
metsmarathon Nov 08 2006 05:27 PM |
i'll say $30M
|
Vic Sage Nov 08 2006 05:37 PM |
$25m
|
sharpie Nov 08 2006 05:45 PM |
$24.9 million
|
Nymr83 Nov 08 2006 06:40 PM |
$28,000,101
|
Yancy Street Gang Nov 08 2006 07:04 PM |
Where's Bob Barker when you need him?
|
Elster88 Nov 08 2006 07:04 PM |
26
|
Johnny Dickshot Nov 08 2006 07:19 PM |
1 dollar
|
Elster88 Nov 08 2006 07:22 PM |
I saw a lot of clowns bid 1 on that show when they weren't the last guy to bid.
|
Edgy DC Nov 08 2006 07:58 PM |
16.5
|
Nymr83 Nov 08 2006 08:07 PM |
|
i've seen the next guy say "2" and teach them a lesson its a good strategy if you're the last one to go and feel that theres a decent chance they all went over, but if you arent last you need to make an accurate guess
|
DocTee Nov 08 2006 08:20 PM |
23.5
|
Elster88 Nov 08 2006 09:55 PM |
||
Well yeah thats where I was going.
|
patona314 Nov 08 2006 11:00 PM |
based from the rumors I've read, it seems that Matsuzaka is dictating where he wants to go... and that's NY. Rumors also state that he likes being the "STAR" of the team ( been that way since he was 15). Considering that Godzilla is on the other side of town, The Mets seem like his logical goal (based off rumors of course). Which is great for us... unless... well, you guys can fill in the rest.
|
Johnny Dickshot Nov 08 2006 11:09 PM |
|
Bids on TPIR should be keyed into a pad on the podium secretly and displayed for the audience, not the other contestants. If you're stupid, you're stupid.
|
patona314 Nov 08 2006 11:20 PM |
||
Unless Bob Barker and Adam Sandler are in the same sentence...STFU
|
Rockin' Doc Nov 09 2006 12:15 AM |
patona -"based from the rumors I've read, it seems that Matsuzaka is dictating where he wants to go... and that's NY. Rumors also state that he likes being the "STAR" of the team ( been that way since he was 15). Considering that Godzilla is on the other side of town, The Mets seem like his logical goal (based off rumors of course). Which is great for us... unless... well, you guys can fill in the rest."
|
cleonjones11 Nov 09 2006 02:26 AM |
Give Diasuke a MFY Uniform now...We're wasting our time thinking he will be a Met
|
Edgy DC Nov 09 2006 07:34 AM |
I'm not thinking one way or another.
|
Yancy Street Gang Nov 09 2006 09:52 AM |
And his preference, if he has one, doesn't factor into this at all. The only option he has if his rights go to a team he doesn't want to play for would be to refuse to sign and stay with the Lions for one more season.
|
86-Dreamer Nov 09 2006 01:35 PM |
$16.5 million is my guess.
|
Edgy DC Nov 09 2006 01:49 PM |
Uh-uh. No, it's not.
|
soupcan Nov 10 2006 01:31 PM |
Early unconfirmed report is that the Red Sox are the high bidder with somewhere between $28 and $45 million.
|
HahnSolo Nov 10 2006 01:35 PM |
38-45 million, per Buster Olney, citing MLB sources.
|
Edgy DC Nov 10 2006 01:37 PM |
That's a payroll for a small market club.
|
DocTee Nov 10 2006 01:39 PM |
A tactic to keep him from the Bronx for a year? Post a ridiculously high bid, then don't even try to sign him...you lose nothing in that scenario, right?
|
Yancy Street Gang Nov 10 2006 01:40 PM |
Right.
|
soupcan Nov 10 2006 01:42 PM |
But who is to say that if the highest bidding team doesn't sign him they can't move down the ladder to next highest?
|
Centerfield Nov 10 2006 01:55 PM |
I thought that was what happened.
|
smg58 Nov 10 2006 02:00 PM |
I thought Selig could reject a bid he didn't consider to be in good faith.
|
patona314 Nov 10 2006 02:04 PM |
In case anyone is interested, it's pretty up to date:
|
metirish Nov 10 2006 03:05 PM |
|
From ESPN...
|
Johnny Dickshot Nov 10 2006 03:22 PM |
|
He fucking better.
|
Rockin' Doc Nov 10 2006 11:40 PM |
Cheap ass Mets get outbid again. As badly as the Mets need a top of the rotation guy, they come up short in their bid for the rights to the one guy that could help them improve. Once again, the Mets have underestimated the resolve of the opposing bidders. I swear, this damn organization just doesn't have a clue.
|
metirish Nov 10 2006 11:45 PM |
I know you are taking the piss Doc...
|
patona314 Nov 11 2006 07:09 AM |
|
|
Yancy Street Gang Nov 12 2006 01:49 PM |
How long does it take to mull over a $30 million bid?
|
Nymr83 Nov 12 2006 02:03 PM |
thats an awful lot of dough, i don't know what Japanese payrolls look like but i'd have to imagine that 30 mil is 1/2 the average team's payroll for the year...
|
Elster88 Nov 12 2006 08:16 PM |
We don't really know that it's the Red Sox yet, right?
|
metirish Nov 12 2006 08:17 PM |
No we don't conflicting reports have the Rangers with the highest bid,an announcent is expected Monday.
|
Rotblatt Nov 13 2006 03:59 PM |
Reports out of Japan are that the Red Sox were the highest bidders, at $42M. Gammons just said the same thing, which means this looks pretty close to a done deal.
|
TransMonk Nov 13 2006 04:04 PM |
That's a lot a dough just to talk to the guy.
|
metirish Nov 13 2006 04:06 PM |
Crazy money but the Sox have a lot of money coming of the books this season and next year.
|
Yancy Street Gang Nov 13 2006 04:09 PM |
Wow.
|
metirish Nov 13 2006 04:15 PM |
Boston.com reports it's $50 freaking million,also Sox apparently offered Drew a contract.
|
HahnSolo Nov 13 2006 04:20 PM |
Can't imagine the Fenway faithful liking Drew's laid back attitude.
|
smg58 Nov 13 2006 06:10 PM |
If they have to pay Matsuzaka market value beyond this year, they'll be overpaying ludicrously for a guy who's never pitched an inning in MLB. For it to possibly be worth the Sox' while, they'd have to get him to commit long-term at a steady price, and then hope that he's as good as billed and doesn't get hurt. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.
|
Edgy DC Nov 13 2006 08:18 PM |
I could think of a better way to blow that money.
|
Rotblatt Nov 13 2006 09:42 PM |
|
Seriously. I wanted us to bid high on him, but that's just crazy-ass talk.
|
metirish Nov 13 2006 09:46 PM |
I suspect teh Mets did bid high on him,just looks like the Sox blew the roof off.
|
Rotblatt Nov 14 2006 07:39 AM |
|
And it sounds like you're right. According to the Daily News, we came in second at $38M.
|
Edgy DC Nov 14 2006 08:21 AM |
Oh, well. We didn't win the bidding for Kaz Ishii in 2001-2002. Instead we got him in 2004-2005 for Jason Phillips.
|
Edgy DC Nov 14 2006 10:29 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Nov 14 2006 11:42 AM |
So, isn't it somewhat bizarre that teams are willing to pay more to another corporation for the rights to negotiate with a player than they'd ever pay to that player himself?
|
metirish Nov 14 2006 11:32 AM |
Very bizarre and even more so when the winning bid is likely higher than a few teams payrolls.
|
duan Nov 14 2006 12:07 PM |
|
to some degree this happens in football all the time. Now, it's a bit different in that what happens there is the 'buying' team is essentially buying a player out of a contract that they've signed. So, for example a couple of seasons ago Rio Ferdinand was under contract to Leeds Utd for another 3/4 years. Manchester Utd desperately wanted him and so they paid £30 million TO LEEDS for the right to negotiate with Ferdinand.
|
Yancy Street Gang Nov 14 2006 12:18 PM |
You had me fooled with your reference to "football." I was thinking that Rio Ferdinand was an NFL player until you got to the part about Leeds.
|
Nymr83 Nov 14 2006 02:02 PM |
soccer should either be called "soccer" or "futbol" to stop confusing people.
|
DocTee Nov 14 2006 08:27 PM |
Official: $51.5 million. Holy Smokes.
|
metirish Nov 14 2006 08:29 PM |
WOW...figure $60 million at least on a contract,would he become the most expensive pitchere ever if you add in the bid and what Boras will get him?
|
Rotblatt Nov 14 2006 08:40 PM |
|
Whaaaaa? Holy mother of god is that a lot of money.
|
smg58 Nov 14 2006 09:38 PM |
Insanity. Pure, unadulterated insanity. Better them than us.
|
metirish Nov 14 2006 09:50 PM |
A discount for what?, I doubt Boras will take that into account,it's not like he had anything to do with the bid....if I 'm a Sox fan I'm wondering if there is any money left to fill much needed other spots.
|
seawolf17 Nov 14 2006 10:06 PM |
I wish I could read what our colleagues at SoSH are saying about this one.
|
metirish Nov 14 2006 10:23 PM |
They have about 10 threads on the subject,can't be bothered to read through it all but from what I am reading so far they are happy as pigs in shit.
|
Frayed Knot Nov 14 2006 10:32 PM |
|
Great googily moogily!! Ya hafta figger that these clubs have a decent idea that they can make part of that back with increased revenue opportunities in the far east. I'm not sure what those would be since the momey from the most obvious ones; foreign TV plus merchandising, are split among all the teams. Plus it's not like the Sox can increase attendance at Fenway from a sudden influx of Japanese tourists or locals since they're sold out through about the year 2525 (if man is still alive) at this point. I've heard a ton of hair-brained speculation on how much money the Sox can make (or that the Yanx did make from Hidecki) from getting a foothold in the Orient but very few of those actual fact thingies.
|
Edgy DC Nov 14 2006 10:51 PM |
Let's keep in mind also that even if he's got the ability of Walter Johnson, he's still a pitcher.
|
Frayed Knot Nov 14 2006 11:03 PM |
Except that the thinking is that Matsuzaka/Boras are going to want a much shorter contract - something on the order of 3-4 years complete with the 'must decline arb' clause which has become fashionable with established foreign players - so as to make him a true MLB FA by the time he hits age 29 or 30 since it's not like he'll be getting any of that $50mil (unless there's some under the table dealings going on).
|
Frayed Knot Nov 14 2006 11:12 PM |
btw, I heard a few minutes from Orestes Destrada today (interview with M&MD on the radio). Destrada, a one-time NYY prospect and now an ESPN talkie - played for a number of years in Japan and knows their system well.
|
metirish Nov 14 2006 11:24 PM |
Orestes Destrada is a great name,not to mention the fact that I have seen his name all over the place since this news broke..never heard of the guy before.
|
Edgy DC Nov 14 2006 11:57 PM |
I'm in no way claiming that he'd get a ten-year deal. I'm just trying to lay out an "even if" scenario to figger out how a team can justify that payment.
|
metirish Nov 15 2006 12:01 AM |
Seems to me that this guy will be under an a huge spotlight,at least Ichiro was way out in Seattle,this guy might go to Boston and asked to be the ace of that staff.....and the difference between the bids for Ichiro and this guy is obviously huge...hope he makes it.
|
SteveJRogers Nov 15 2006 12:07 AM |
|
From the "Why do these facts remain in my mind" department (if this is the same Destrada that we are talking about) -A Lefty hitting catcher with at least the MFYs during the late 80's -An original Marlin
|
Nymr83 Nov 15 2006 12:10 AM |
|
my cynical answer is they can't unless they worked something out with the Japanese team (ala we'll bid real high but you're giving to us for X)
|
iramets Nov 15 2006 06:36 AM |
I heard the Orestes Destrade interview too--the man is full of shit, and those two clowns didn't ask him the right questions. He made himself out to be all-knowing as to the Japanese players who've already played in the majors. Mad Dog asked him "Were you on the money about Kaz Matsui?" and of course he answered, "Oh, sure. I felt Kaz was a great ballplayer, but just not right for New York. As you can see last year he hit .384 for Colorado, so his problem was New York, not that he's a shitty, shitty hitter and the most limited fielder in creation." I'm paraphrasing, but dont they think it would have made some sense to pin him down as to Japanese players's futures, and not to pontificate about why their pasts have turned out as they have? He was disgustingly vague as to whether Matsuzaka will be more like the Big Train than the Big Drain on Boston's Finances. I wanted to hurl my radio across the room from hearing him--usually, when I hear Mike and the Mad Dog, all I normally want to do is hurl.
|
HahnSolo Nov 15 2006 08:41 AM |
Second-hand rumor/speculation I heard yesterday. Don't know if there's anything to it, but it's intriguing enough to throw it out there.
|
smg58 Nov 15 2006 08:57 AM |
I doubt it. If Matsuzaka wasn't already a much more valuable commodity than Drew before yesterday, he certainly is now. Nobody has to tell that to Boras.
|
Yancy Street Gang Nov 15 2006 09:19 AM |
My hunch is that the Red Sox will get two outstanding years from Matsuzaka.
|
Iubitul Nov 15 2006 09:31 AM |
|
This would be Boras colluding with ownership - Given his stance regarding owners, this is pretty far fetched. This amount is just insane - no, it's obscene. That amount to just have the privilege of negotiating with the guy?
|
Yancy Street Gang Nov 15 2006 09:41 AM |
I'd chat with Theo Epstein for 30 days for one tenth of that amount.
|
iramets Nov 15 2006 09:51 AM |
You realize that he doesn't get the money, the club in Japan gets it, don't you?
|
Yancy Street Gang Nov 15 2006 09:53 AM |
Yes.
|
Edgy DC Nov 15 2006 09:54 AM |
He would if that orange monster was behind you.
|
Mr. Zero Nov 15 2006 11:38 AM |
The way I am understandng the situation, if Boston and Matzuzaka can't reach a contract agreement he must stay in Japan. And then Boston is no longer responsible for the 51 mill.
|
Iubitul Nov 15 2006 11:47 AM |
This is just further fodder to have Foreign free agents enter the draft, IMO. What the Red Sox posted is higher than the entire 2006 payroll for five separate teams. Something has to be done to keep the top 5 teams from cherry picking all of the top foreign talent.
|
Edgy DC Nov 15 2006 11:52 AM Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Nov 15 2006 11:55 AM |
These Japanese teams have reserve rights on these players that are just as valid and invalid as our teams' reserve rights on their players. If they start raiding each other's players without compensating the foreign teams according to agreed-upon market mechanism, it would mean war between the two leagues.
|
Yancy Street Gang Nov 15 2006 11:53 AM |
Well, one thing is that if the Red Sox didn't bid in good faith but posted a crazy high bid just to keep Matsuzaka out of the Bronx, they'd create bad feelings with the guy and when he becomes a free agent one or two years from now he won't consider them, and may very well end up a Yankee.
|
metirish Nov 15 2006 11:59 AM |
I think Boras would figured out quickly if he was being jerked around, I wonder if Selig has some sort of ultimate authority where by if it was found that Boston were not negotiating in good faith he could reopen the bidding but ban Boston from it.
|
Rotblatt Nov 15 2006 12:59 PM |
Before SoSH closed down their board, I read speculation that the following is likely:
|
Iubitul Nov 15 2006 01:29 PM |
|
I'm not talking about declaring war on the Japanese league. I just don't like this bidding process. There is too much room for shenanigans with private bids. Furthermore, MLB teams should not be able to bid at all on these players while they are property of their Japanese team. Once a player has become a free agent, he should be slotted into the draft. If anyone has a better method to keep these players from filling only a few select teams, I'm all ears. I
|
Edgy DC Nov 15 2006 01:34 PM |
Increase the visitors share of both stadium revenues and broadcast revenues.
|
Iubitul Nov 15 2006 01:46 PM |
Actually, I think they are doing it on our backs more than the players' backs...
|
Mr. Zero Nov 15 2006 01:55 PM |
|
Agreed. Though I keep thinking: Cost of signing Matsuzaka: $110 million. Cost of keeping him out of the hands of others: $0
|
Centerfield Nov 15 2006 03:35 PM |
||
Orestes Destrade's baseball card was in every pack I purchased as a child. That may not be true, but it seemed like it.
|
Iubitul Nov 15 2006 06:46 PM |
|||
just to show how old I am, it seemed like I got Tito Fuentes in every pack I opened as a kid.
|
patona314 Nov 15 2006 07:33 PM |
|
brilliant move by the bosox. if boras asks for too much... back to japan he goes and the bosox keep $51M. next year there is no bidding process . he's a pure free agent. thanks too the hype that went on this year. his price tag will be astromical. the yankmees will get him and pay a price that will even hurt them financially. That scenario would be a beautiful sight... but... what if boras knows what the bosox are up to (which i hope he does).... he signs him to a contract similar to the one mussina is about to sign (2yrs $23M) and matzusaka walks at the ripe old age of 28. either way, yankees lose
|
Nymr83 Nov 15 2006 10:14 PM |
i can't see how the red Sox could let him sign for only 2 years after paying 51 million, you'd think that at that rate they've got 7 years in mind
|
duan Nov 16 2006 05:10 AM |
|
Leaving aside that 'real football' came way earlier, If there's one game that's played primarily with the feet and one primarily with the hands, which do you think should be called football.
|
Nymr83 Nov 16 2006 07:24 AM |
|
Edgy DC Nov 16 2006 07:48 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Nov 16 2006 08:45 AM |
You tell him, John Wayne.
|
Willets Point Nov 16 2006 08:30 AM |
Historically, all games played on foot were called football as opposed to more aristocratic games which were played on horseback, so the term has nothing to do with playing with one's feet. Different countries/cultures have codified different rules of football - association football, American football, Gaelic football, Australian-rules football, Canadian football, rugby - but they're all "football."
|
soupcan Nov 16 2006 09:22 AM |
Thanks Dusty!
|
Yancy Street Gang Nov 16 2006 09:29 AM |
The name "football" seems to be a better fit for the game that we Americans call soccer. Kicking plays a much bigger role than in American football.
|
seawolf17 Nov 16 2006 11:33 AM |
|
So who gets more out of their investment? Nice move by the Devil Rays.
|
metirish Nov 16 2006 11:37 AM |
I had to look twice, thought at first $4.5M was $45 million.....isn't there another Japanese pitcher going up for bid soon...plays for Valentines team I think.
|
Yancy Street Gang Nov 16 2006 11:39 AM |
I hope he does well for them. It's nice that I have no reason to root against him; if he becomes an All-Star for the Devil Rays it will have no impact on the Mets at all.
|
Elster88 Nov 25 2006 12:39 PM |
|
???
|
Edgy DC Nov 28 2006 10:08 AM |
We've discussed that.
|
metirish Nov 28 2006 11:27 AM |
|
Boston have made an offer that they call 'fair and comprehensive',what's interesting is this bit from the ESPN article.....
|
metirish Nov 29 2006 09:44 AM |
|
|
Sandgnat Dec 08 2006 10:14 AM |
Starting to seem like the Red Sox never really intended to sign this guy and just ridiculously overbid in the posting process to ensure he didn't go somewhere else (NYY).
|
Nymr83 Dec 08 2006 10:22 AM |
all the Japanese teams are owned by corporations right? couldn't whoever owns the Seibu Lions, if they wanted to give him a kickback, just "hire" him to make a commercial or billboard advertsing their product?
|
metirish Dec 08 2006 10:25 AM |
||
Interesting article....
|
sharpie Dec 08 2006 10:25 AM |
I think the Red Sox are just being smart here. Boras has no leverage other than letting him go back to Japan for a year, which he doesn't want to have happen.
|
Frayed Knot Dec 08 2006 10:34 AM |
RE: the Drew case:
|
Yancy Street Gang Dec 08 2006 10:38 AM |
I agree. The Boras and Drew and Epstein's stories all sound like they could be perfectly legitimate. Doesn't mean they're not guilty, but their stories don't seem fishy.
|
Frayed Knot Dec 08 2006 10:43 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Dec 08 2006 10:45 AM |
|
Selig would have the power to do either - although the further it gets away, time-wise, from the Boston signing the more difficult it would be to negate the new contract and then return him to LA (would they even want him?) or make Drew a FA again as teams would have their rosters more filled out reducing the market for Drew, etc.
|
metirish Dec 08 2006 10:44 AM |
I imagine if Selig tried to void a contract he'd have the players union filing all sorts of lawsuits.
|
Nymr83 Dec 08 2006 10:45 AM |
i doubt he could reinstate the LA contract, he could probably void the BOS one, though i doubt he'd have the balls to do it.
|
Johnny Dickshot Dec 08 2006 10:51 AM |
I think the Drew thing is probably above-board and and shouldn't come as a surprise given Drew's history as a Boras "test case."
|
Nymr83 Dec 08 2006 11:02 AM |
given Drew's alleged statements leading up to it and given my low opinion of Boras (when i picture Boras i picture a lawyer who encourages his clients to take the stand and commit perjury) I am definetaly suspicious. I don't think anything will be proved, but the Dodgers should file a grievance just to make a point.
|
Edgy DC Dec 08 2006 11:02 AM |
I think it's established that J.D. Drew trusts Scott Boras when he says the market projects for you to make more money by walking.
|
smg58 Dec 08 2006 01:08 PM |
Look, the Dodgers gave Drew the opportunity to walk, he took it and now they're mad. Boras considered the possibility that the market would be much better in two years, and the Dodgers failed to think so far ahead. I'm sure Boras tried to get a similar clause in Beltran's contract -- he got one for A-Rod, so I'd assume he considers it a standard thing to bargain over with his most valued clients. Boras didn't need specific information from Theo Epstein to know that Drew could get a better deal this year. Anybody (well, the Dodgers front office evidently excluded) could see the way the market was going, which I guess is equivalent to having "some idea what was out there." Unless he has some specific evidence to cite, and the article presents absolutely nothing, Colletti should shut up and reserve his finger-pointing for the mirror.
|
OlerudOwned Dec 08 2006 01:39 PM |
Hey, if Boston gets slammed for "circumvent the posting process" in the Matsuzaka deal, do his rights go to the team with the #2 bid?
|
metirish Dec 08 2006 01:40 PM |
Did't Paul DePodesta sign Drew?
|
sharpie Dec 08 2006 01:48 PM |
|
No, he goes back to Japan. That is why Boras has no leverage.
|
Yancy Street Gang Dec 08 2006 01:54 PM |
Well, he goes back to Japan if the Red Sox can't sign him to a deal.
|
metirish Dec 08 2006 01:59 PM |
If Colletti did file a grievance I wonder if MLB would halt all negotiations until they finished an investigation which might take a while,maybe even passed the deadline...
|
Rotblatt Dec 08 2006 02:13 PM |
Does Seibu have any recourse in this? They stand to lose the most if Matsuzaka doesn't sign, and Boras convinces him to take some time off next year.
|
smg58 Dec 08 2006 02:44 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Dec 08 2006 02:47 PM |
|
Yes, I remembered that after I posted. In fact I think the unpopularity of the Drew deal was one of the factors in DePodesta getting fired. And Drew decides the deal wasn't enough and goes elsewhere. Baseball can be funny sometimes. Which makes you wonder why Colletti cares so much. You would think he'd look on it as an opportunity to increase his stamp on the team, free of somebody else's controversial signing.
|
Johnny Dickshot Dec 08 2006 02:46 PM |
I think its cuz Drew gave him the impression he'd stick around then skipped town like a wuss.
|
Yancy Street Gang Dec 10 2006 03:39 PM |
|
|
smg58 Dec 10 2006 06:42 PM |
If Boston thinks they could bid $51M for negotiating rights and then offer him $7M per year even beyond the two years he's still under contract in Seibu, either they were bidding just to keep the Yankees from getting him or they're certifiable.
|
A Boy Named Seo Dec 10 2006 06:59 PM |
I don't know, I don't think they're so crazy. Sure they want to sign him, but the Sox are in pretty good position. They have no competition driving up the price, and as badly as they want him, I don't see any way Boras happily takes nothing and watches Matsuzaka go back to Japan. Maybe 5 years/$55 mils gets it done.
|
metirish Dec 10 2006 07:06 PM |
If they did this just to stop the yankees form winning the bidding rights then I am fucking mad as hell,Omar could right be wrapping things up with Boras...still I don't think Boston are acting in bad faith.
|
Edgy DC Dec 10 2006 07:16 PM |
Omar has nobody to blame but himself if he went in without a workable alternaitve plan.
|
metirish Dec 10 2006 07:19 PM |
|
All vert true,I need to look on the bright side..
|
Frayed Knot Dec 10 2006 09:03 PM |
I wonder if Boras was totally up front w/Matsuzaka about what he c/should expect from a contract on this side of the Pacific, or whether he sold him on the idea that a deal for north of $10mil/yr was a lock once the agent starting spinning his charm on whatever hapless GM won the bid.
|
metirish Dec 10 2006 09:16 PM |
I think if it came to firing Boras then Boras would make the deal, his ego probably would demand it.
|
Johnny Dickshot Dec 10 2006 10:34 PM |
Who couldn't see the posting system turning into a clusterfuck like this.
|
Johnny Dickshot Dec 11 2006 10:24 AM |
BTW, you have to figure if the Red Sox cannot come to a deal with matsusaka they've got plenty of money to throw at the next LH guy ... Zito.
|
metirish Dec 11 2006 01:16 PM |
|
Curt Schilling going the extra mile and learning Japanese,as is pitching coach John Farrell,Francona isn't though...
|
Willets Point Dec 11 2006 01:43 PM |
Is this shit not settled yet?
|
metirish Dec 11 2006 01:48 PM |
No it's not,Boras thinks he's worth $15 million a year while the Sox think he's worth a mere $8 million a year.
|
smg58 Dec 11 2006 01:50 PM |
It won't be settled until Thursday close to midnight.
|
soupcan Dec 11 2006 02:17 PM |
Don't understimate the Japanese club's interest in getting this done. And I'm thinking the Red Sox aren't.
|
Yancy Street Gang Dec 11 2006 02:42 PM |
|
I read somewhere that the practical deadline, as opposed to the actual deadline, is closer to Tuesday, because of the need to schedule a physical and get the results.
|
duan Dec 11 2006 04:30 PM |
here's the thing; there was an argument SOMEWHERE that Boras could try to buy Matsuka out of his contract for $XX million if this negotiation fails and then argue that he's a free agent and go from there.
|
metirish Dec 11 2006 04:40 PM |
|
WOW,to the high court we will go....now that would be a mess...
|
Nymr83 Dec 11 2006 04:50 PM |
Hopefully this will all get cleaned up. The problem is that from Boston's point of view they paid for exclusive rights, which means they shouldn't have to pay the guy like a free agent, because he isn't a free agent. Boras seems to think he's entitled to free agent money, Seibu got $51 million out this, shouldn't he get something too?
|
duan Dec 11 2006 07:33 PM |
|
Well I think it's more like Boras is saying "the guy is a free agent in 2 years time, at that point, he can get a deal for (lets say going by today's market) $ 20 million per year. You (the boston red sox) are paying 51 million FOR the right to sign him NOW, the right to be the only people to negotiate, and the right to lock him up. Whereas, the red sox are thinking "well, our total cost of this acquisition should be (about) $85 million over 5 years (or Barry Zito money). That means that we can only pay him $35 million over 5 years." The big issue for the Red Sox is that with the size of the posting fee, it takes too many years to bring the cost of acquisition down to a level where they can pay the player (broadly) for his worth. Don't forget, Matsuka's already been a top level baseball player for 7 years, why should he have to wait ANOTHER 5 years to get paid 'fair market value'. That's probably about 75% of TOP level player's career. (Moderate players' major league careers are A LOT shorter). It has to be proven to Matsuka, that he's better off signing with the RedSox now, then with someone else in 2 years time. When the difference in salaries could possibly be made up in less then ONE YEAR it's hard to see how the ballparks the redsox are talking make sense. [eg Matsuka makes 3 million in 2007 & 2008 (totalling 6 million) red sox offer is 8 million/5 (making total cost 90 million over 5 years), yet in the difference by end of '08 is only 10 million. If he signs a contract paying $18 million per year in 09, he's already earned as much by end of 09 as with the former, and by the end of 11 he's earned and extra $20 million. If I'm Matsuka; I'm saying to the red sox if you want me cheap you only get me for 2-3 years. Otherwise you pay 15-18
|
Nymr83 Dec 11 2006 07:55 PM |
well thats certainly true, if you're Boras you are being perfectly reasonable in demanding "market value" for those years after he would be a free agent anyway. If we're talking about a 7 year deal, which considering the whopping size of the fee i'd assume we are, you'd need 5 years of market rate following 2 years of a slight bit more than he'd make staying in Japan... altogether 13-15 a year sounds about right.
|
smg58 Dec 11 2006 09:27 PM |
|
I like that idea. Even a percentage of the full contract would make more sense that the current situation. Seibu probably wouldn't come away with $51M, but they'd be assured of not getting nothing.
|
Nymr83 Dec 12 2006 12:02 AM |
More importantly, nobody can negotiate in bad faith. Sure Seibu wouldn't get $51 million but I'd have to think that after this fiasco thats not happening again anyway. MLB, if Selig has any balls/common sense whatsoever, will sit down and hammer out a better agreement. Will the Japanese league work something better out or will we end up with a situation where Japanese players can't come here until actual free agency? Would MLB disregard Japanese rules altogether if it came to that? Lots of questions, no answers.
|
cleonjones11 Dec 12 2006 12:07 AM |
How about no more Japanese players in MLB...
|
Nymr83 Dec 12 2006 12:11 AM |
|
How about no more cleonjones11 posts on the CPF...
|
soupcan Dec 12 2006 09:16 AM |
|
I'll second that emotion. Today's New York Times... December 12, 2006 As Japanese Pitcher Waits, Wheeling Outpaces Dealing By JACK CURRY Jae C. Hong/Associated Press The Japanese pitcher Daisuke Matsuzaka, right, with his agent, Scott Boras, who has until Thursday to strike a deal with the Red Sox. The Daisuke Matsuzaka saga took another twist on Monday night when two of the Boston Red Sox's chief executives flew from Boston to southern California to meet face to face with the pitcher and Scott Boras, his agent, in an attempt to try and finally reach an agreement on a contract. In a calculated, aggressive effort, the Red Sox invaded Boras's backyard because they said Boras was not being responsive during their discussions. The Red Sox posted a bid of $51.1 million to win the right to negotiate with Matsuzaka and they have until Thursday at midnight to complete a deal. "I think it's also fair to say that we're on Scott Boras's doorstep because he hasn't negotiated with us thus far," John Henry, the team's principal owner, said. "We're taking the fight directly to him, a fight to try and have a negotiation here." General Manager Theo Epstein, who traveled with President Larry Lucchino on Henry's private plane, said they made the cross country trip to present an "improved contract offer of considerable magnitude." Epstein said the Red Sox were increasing their offer, despite the fact that Boras has not made a counter to their initial proposal. The two sides will meet on Tuesday. "We simply got on the plane and flew to southern California and called Scott when we landed," Epstein said. "We told him we were here to meet and we'd like to meet directly with him and Mr. Matsuzaka as soon as possible." Although the 30-day deadline for an agreement ends on Thursday, Epstein said it is narrower because the Red Sox do not finalize contracts unless a player has passed a physical. Since the Red Sox want Matsuzaka to be examined in Boston, Epstein suggested that the deadline is actually Wednesday. "We also have the plane available Wednesday morning," Epstein said. "We hope to be flying back to Boston with Mr. Matsuzaka and Mr. Boras on the plane in order for us to complete a physical and get a deal done before the window lapses." Before Epstein and Lucchino landed, Boras held a news conference at his office in Newport Beach, Calif. in which he said Matsuzaka is "worth well in excess of $100 million." When Boras mentioned that figure, he was not including the $51.1 million posting fee. Epstein said Boras's amount was "in the right ball park for the commitment of the club," but, of course, he was including the posting fee. Boras believes that Matsuzaka, 26, who was the Most Valuable Player of the inaugural World Baseball Classic, should be paid as much as $15 million a year. After paying such a lucrative posting fee, the Red Sox believe Matsuzaka cannot expect to be paid like an unrestricted free agent. The two sides strenuously disagree about the $51.1 million the Red Sox spent to speak with Matsuzaka. Boras does not feel that should factor into what Matsuzaka earns. The agent has called the system flawed and has questioned why the Seibu Lions, Matsuzaka's former team, should potentially benefit so much more than his client. "The posting fee represents the problem," Boras told reporters. "It's historic, it's new. it's something that's never been done. How do you reflect value in a posting fee in an appropriate contract for a player? In the American system, no player is asked to reduce their salaries for luxury tax purposes." The Red Sox have remained mostly mum since learning they had posted the highest bid for Matsuzaka last month, but exasperated team officials spoke at length during a conference call that started at 12:50 A.M. (EST). Even in the round-the-clock passion that loyalists have for the Red Sox, the starting time was pretty late. Still, the Red Sox had some points they wanted to emphasize regarding Matsuzaka and Boras. Epstein called Matsuzaka "a national treasure," the same phrase Boras had used to describe the pitcher a few hours earlier, and gushed about how the best thing for baseball would be if Matsuzaka signs with Boston. While Epstein acknowledged that it is normally not a shrewd decision to make a second offer when the other party has not responded to the first offer, he said the Red Sox "want to demonstrate to Matsuzaka and fans of Japanese baseball around the world just how important this is to us." When Esptein was asked if Boras was operating in good faith with Boston, he sidestepped the question by saying Matsuzaka "is certainly operating in good faith." Epstein added, "Again, in the end, it's the player's decision on whether he wants to sign." Boras, who is baseball's most powerful agent, has often garnered handsome contracts for players by playing offers against each another. He cannot do that in this situation because the Red Sox have exclusive rights to Matsuzaka. What Boras can do is drag out the process and frustrate the Red Sox, perhaps hoping that they will flinch. If the two sides do not agree on a contract, the Lions would not receive a dime of the $51.1 million and Matsuzaka would have to return to Japan for 2007. Matsuzaka, who had told Boras he wants to pitch in the United States next year, would have to wait at least another year before getting the chance again. "If there is no deal, then all bets are off," said Lou Melendez, the vice president of international operations for Major League Baseball. "They'd have to post him again next year because he can't be a free agent for two more years." Boras said Matsuzaka would make the decision about his future on his own. "One thing is clear, D-Mat will some day be a major league player," Boras said. "We have further negotiating to do. The deadline's not here in five minutes. The parties do understand what the player's value is in the free agent system." Some Japanese reporters said it would be awkward for Matsuzaka if he had to return to Japan. Matsuzaka has already said good-bye to his country and the financially-strapped Lions were expecting a significant sum after posting him. "Nobody in Japan is expecting him to come back because the negotiations broke down," said Yasuko Yanagita, a reporter for the Hochi Shimbun. "I don't think this is only for the Japanese culture. But, in Japan, someone asking for 'Money, money, money,' does not leave a good impression." As both sides have tried to concoct ways to make the deal more favorable for them, there has been speculation that Boras could let the deadline pass so that the Red Sox no longer hold negotiating rights and then attempt to buy out Matsuzaka's free agency. Once the Lions knew they were not getting $51.1 million, they might be willing to take half of that from Boras. Boras could then market Matsuzaka as a free agent to every team and the pitcher would stand to make much more than he would get from the Red Sox right now. But Melendez said that is not an option. "The Commissioner's office would not recognize that free agency and the Japanese commissioner's office is in agreement with us," Melendez said. Now that Epstein and Lucchino have visited Boras's neighborhood, they are pushing to sign a pitcher who will drastically improve their team. The Red Sox have a plane that is leaving southern California on Wednesday. They are hoping Matsuzaka will be on it, hoping their own draining journey was worth it.
|
Edgy DC Dec 12 2006 09:24 AM |
Glad it's not my team in this pickle.
|
metirish Dec 12 2006 11:07 AM |
|
Boras has a way with words....
Great name to add pressure to D-Mat.
|
Yancy Street Gang Dec 12 2006 11:08 AM |
If I was a ballplayer I don't think I'd want him as my agent.
|
Edgy DC Dec 12 2006 11:18 AM |
I think he's done more than fine by most of his players.
|
Yancy Street Gang Dec 12 2006 11:22 AM |
Oh, I'm sure he has.
|
Centerfield Dec 12 2006 11:35 AM |
Yancy, you're not seeing the big picture. $105 million is only like $60 million or so after taxes.
|
metsmarathon Dec 12 2006 11:35 AM |
but then, if that were the case, you wouldn't have signed him to be your agent.
|
metirish Dec 12 2006 11:37 AM |
|
Zito...
|
Yancy Street Gang Dec 12 2006 11:38 AM |
|
That's what I originally said. If I were a ballplayer, I wouldn't choose him to be my agent.
|
Edgy DC Dec 12 2006 11:41 AM |
I don't htink wanting your agent to bring home every dollar you're entitled to necessarily makes you "all about the dollar."
|
Yancy Street Gang Dec 12 2006 11:51 AM |
Could be.
|
Frayed Knot Dec 13 2006 02:28 PM |
The parties are en route to Boston [url=http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/baseball/mlb/12/13/matsuzaka.signs/index.html]with a 6-year deal in hand[/url]
|
Yancy Street Gang Dec 13 2006 02:32 PM |
They'll pay him $52 million for the six years.
|
Edgy DC Dec 13 2006 02:40 PM |
Which shouldn't be his concern in a fair world.
|
Farmer Ted Dec 13 2006 02:49 PM |
I had a nice talk with a friend today who is a legal scholar in sports law. He said that the posting thing isn't unusual and is very common in European soccer. He said that sort of practice is probably here for quite a while. It's just that American sports have never really dealt with this process of negotiating with a player who has a binding contract with another team.
|
Johnny Dickshot Dec 13 2006 02:58 PM |
|
John Thorn had an interesting take on the whole thing. He basically argues that MLB and NPB are in cahoots on the benefits of the posting system (I'd have guessed NPB was, and MLB wasn't, necessarily) and is sympathetic to Boras as a Marvin Miller of the disenfranchised talent (which I agree).
|
Yancy Street Gang Dec 13 2006 03:13 PM |
It seems now, with hindsight, that Matsuzaka's best option would have been to stay in Japan for the next two years and then become a free agent after 2008, with the ability to negotiate with 30 MLB clubs.
|
cleonjones11 Dec 13 2006 03:26 PM |
Screw Dice-K ITS ZITO TIME!!!!
|
smg58 Dec 13 2006 03:47 PM |
The Red Sox come out winners at that price. Assuming Matsuzaka is as good as billed, of course.
|
Edgy DC Dec 13 2006 03:55 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Dec 14 2006 09:29 AM |
I'm not so sure anybody wins, though the Tigers are sitting pretty well right now. The Sox, in order to make their investment worthwhile, had to lock hiim up for a longer period than most folks want to risk on pitchers --- any pitchers.
|
Vic Sage Dec 13 2006 05:00 PM |
Mike Hampton didn't open up the Japanese TV market for Colorado. And signing Mike Hampton didn't keep him out of the clutches of the Rockies' main competitor (because they don't have one).
|
Nymr83 Dec 13 2006 05:12 PM |
|
For all his accomplishments in Japan (some of which, like 200 pitches on 3 days rest in a high school game might raise concerns) he is still a guy with 0 major league innings under his belt, for that reason alone paying him that much money isn't a decision i'd normally expect to see made but oh well, its not my team's money.
Even knowing "what the other one will do" does not solve the dilemma. here's an example: -Prisoner A and Prisoner B rob a bank with illegal guns. -robbing a bank carries a 10 year sentence -illegal possession of a gun carries a 3 year sentence -the prosecutor tells them both that if they both confess he will ask that the sentences for the two crimes be served concurrently (combined jail time: 20 years) if one confesses, he will get probation only and the other will serve the two terms consecutively (combined jail time: 13 years) if neither confesses he will nail them with the gun crimes but doesnt have the evidence to convict on the robbery (combined jail time: 6 years) -it is clearly in their combined best interest to both not confess -let's say the prosecutor allows them to talk before making their decisions, and they agree with each other to remain silent -after that discussion here are prisoner A's options: 1. if he believes B will confess, he had best confess himself to serve 10 years instead of 13. 2. if he believes B will not confess, he should still confess himself to serve nothing instead of 3 years. -the same is true for B, and so they will both (if acting rationally) confess despit their assurances to the contrary to each other. This works in a business context as well, most notably with cartels or other horizontal agreements on price or output levels- no matter what you expect the others to do it is always best for you to "cheat" on the agreement
|
Johnny Dickshot Dec 14 2006 09:13 AM |
Whacky Matusaka Video. YSG, did you watch this show while in japan? I want my baseball coverage like this, dammit:
|
Willets Point Dec 14 2006 10:20 AM |
|
You want a bunch of jocks yelling and acting goofy while random and distracting graphics pop up all over the screen? Try watching ESPN. Or Fox.
|
Edgy DC Dec 14 2006 10:29 AM |
I think he wants all that but in exotic languages with inside jokes he doesn't get.
|
Yancy Street Gang Dec 14 2006 10:29 AM |
I can't seem to access that link, so I don't know what it contains.
|
seawolf17 Dec 14 2006 11:47 AM |
If you've never watched "MXC" on Spike TV, you're missing out. Funniest show on television.
|
Johnny Dickshot Dec 14 2006 11:56 AM |
Right you are, Ken
|
Rotblatt Dec 14 2006 12:12 PM |
|
I agree. They outlay a huge amount of cash in the short term, but the posting fee doesn't affect their salary cap, and Matsuzaka's annual salary is very reasonable, even if he only ends up being an average pitcher. In other words, he'll retain some trade value, even with the length of his contract. My hunch is that Matsuzaka will be very solid for them, if not the ace they paid for. And frankly, I can't wait to see him pitch.
|
Rockin' Doc Dec 14 2006 01:18 PM |
I hope Matsuzaka becomes known as the "Yankee Slayer".
|
A Boy Named Seo Dec 14 2006 01:47 PM |
Is that the Japanese version of a White Sox jersey or is that another team? The head on that, um, microphone that chick was wielding was freaking me out.
|
Centerfield Dec 14 2006 02:41 PM |
They seemed to be having a ball. A couple questions:
|
Willets Point Dec 23 2006 05:02 AM |
Bobby V weighs in on NPB posting system.
|