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Daisuke Matsuzaka -Let The Bidding Begin.

metirish
Oct 17 2006 04:03 PM



]

By TYLER KEPNER
Published: October 17, 2006
Six years ago, as the major league playoffs dominated the attention of American baseball fans, Bobby Valentine was asked about the potential impact of a player from Japan. Valentine, then managing the Mets, said he believed the player was already one of the five best in the world.

That player was Ichiro Suzuki, who quickly proved Valentine right by winning the American League Most Valuable Player award for Seattle the next season.

Now, as the manager of the Chiba Lotte Marines in Japan, Valentine has a more intimate knowledge of Japanese talent. If his instincts are the same, then Daisuke Matsuzaka will be the next big star in the majors. “This guy is the real deal,” Valentine said last week in an e-mail message. “He has the ability to be one of the top starters in M.L.B.”

Matsuzaka, a 26-year-old right-hander, was the most valuable player of the World Baseball Classic in March. His team, the Seibu Lions, gave him permission last week to pursue a career in the majors, and the Yankees are among the teams expected to show strong interest.

Japanese players need nine seasons before becoming eligible for free agency, but Matsuzaka will be using the loophole Suzuki and others have used. The Lions will post him for blind bids by major league teams.

The team that bids the highest will get exclusive negotiating rights with Matsuzaka for 30 days. If there is no deal within that window, the team’s buy-in is returned and Matsuzaka continues to play in Japan. Teams can begin bidding around Nov. 1.

“You’re trying to assess how much interest there really is in the player,” said San Diego Padres General Manager Kevin Towers, speaking of the bidding process. “It depends on how much you want the player. If you want him, you don’t want to make a lowball bid. But also, if there’s not a lot of interest, you don’t want to overpay.”

After the 2003 season, Towers made a successful bid of $300,000 for the rights to reliever Akinori Otsuka. The Matsuzaka bid should dwarf that figure. Valentine predicted it would cost a team more than $20 million for the right to negotiate with Matsuzaka. (The Mariners’ winning bid for Suzuki was $13.125 million.) Then the team must negotiate a contract with Matsuzaka, who has leverage because he can return to Japan and put off free agency until next season, when all teams can talk with him.

Matsuzaka, who will surely command a high salary, is expected to name Scott Boras as his agent soon. Boras visited Japan this summer to see Matsuzaka. Not surprisingly, he called him an ace who can dominate with his fastball.

“He can pitch upstairs in the strike zone at 95-96 miles an hour,” Boras said. “He’s in his mid-20’s, and he’s a strong, disciplined athlete. He certainly has No. 1 potential, no question.”

One scout who has seen Matsuzaka extensively said his skills went beyond talent. The scout, who asked not to be identified, said Matsuzaka had the competitive drive to battle out of jams.

“It’s not only his stuff — his ability to pitch is even more impressive,” the scout said. “He’s a bulldog.”

The scout said that while Matsuzaka could throw 95 miles an hour, his fastball was usually around 92-93; Valentine described the fastball as “a little above average.” But Matsuzaka’s command is excellent, his slider — called a “Gyroball” in Japan — is sharp, and Valentine called his changeup devastating.

Matsuzaka will be on display again in the first week of November, when a contingent of major leaguers, including Carlos Beltrán, José Reyes and David Wright of the Mets and Mike Myers of the Yankees, will play an exhibition series in Japan.

It will be still more work for a pitcher who was used heavily this season, perhaps because the Lions expected to let him go.

Matsuzaka went 17-5 with a 2.13 earned run average and exceeded 120 pitches in 12 of his 25 regular-season starts. In his final start, a shutout in the playoffs, he threw 137 pitches and had 13 strikeouts.

As polished as Matsuzaka is, Valentine said, “he lost a little this year.”

“It was probably because of the W.B.C.,” he said. “He did have a few small injuries for the first time in his life.”

Fans in Japan are used to improbable feats from Matsuzaka. He rose to fame in 1998, when he led his high school team to a national championship with a remarkable three days of work.

On the first day, he threw 250 pitches over 17 innings. The next day, he played the outfield and recorded a save. The third day, he clinched the title with a nine-inning no-hitter.

By the next season, Matsuzaka had joined the Lions. According to Time Asia, the Lions allowed him to attend that year’s Braves-Yankees World Series at Yankee Stadium while the other players were in training camp. The magazine called him the biggest draw in Japan’s Pacific League.

“I’ve never seen anything like it,” Reggie Jefferson, an American then playing in Japan, told the magazine. “He’s like a rock star.”

Matsuzaka went on to compete in two Olympics for Japan, and he is 108-60 in eight years with the Lions. Few seem to doubt that his skills will translate to the majors. While Hideki Irabu and Kaz Matsui have been disappointments, most Japanese stars tend to play as well or better than expected. That group includes Tadahito Iguchi, Hideki Matsui, Hideo Nomo and Takashi Saito, among others.

“For every one of them that’s struggled, you have stories like Saito and Otsuka, guys that probably weren’t expected to do as well as they have, but have performed even better than what their clubs hoped,” Towers said. “I don’t know how risky it really is anymore. Most of those guys have come over and improved our game.”

The secret is out, and the price is going up.

Next Article in Sports (2 of 22) »


Bobby V thinks the bidding will start at $20 mil.....Damn...

Johnny Dickshot
Oct 17 2006 04:16 PM

This "posting" thing is a joke. It doesn't appear to benefit the player at all, and certainly isn't generally equitable for all teams here.

I wouldn't mind MLB owners colluding in these cases, then fighting among themselves to reward the player fairly.

Yancy Street Gang
Oct 17 2006 04:20 PM

Well, the Japanese team isn't trying to be equitable. They found a way to get a very high price.

I wouldn't object to collusion here either, but I'm not sure how it would work. Would five teams agree to bid, say, $8 million? The way the Japanese system works is that only one team gets the rights. If the MLB teams agree on a maximum, then I wonder what the tiebreaker would be?

Also, an MLB owner can bid $8,000,001 and get the rights to the guy. He'd lose the trust of his fellow owners, but I wouldn't put it past a rogue owner to do something like that.

Gwreck
Oct 17 2006 04:23 PM

I think Seattle is the most likely landing spot for this pitcher.

Word from Seattle is that ownership has already comitted to personally put up the "bidding money" out of their own pockets as a special expense, separate from the team payroll budget.

In that scenario, I think only Steinbrenner could/would potentially outbid them.

soupcan
Oct 17 2006 04:42 PM

-Steinbrenner may have the most valuable team in baseball but I highly doubt he is the wealthiest owner.

-Doesn't Seattle also have at least part Japanese ownership?

-Who is the best pitcher ever to come over from Japan - Nomo? He was good when he was good but a top free agent contract on top of a $20 million fee?

Pass.

Rotblatt
Oct 17 2006 04:47 PM

I think we should go hog-wild with our bid. I mean, we're talking about a probable ace here, and there will be no aces on the market next year. To get comparable talent, you're probably talking about trading for Willis, and what would that cost us in terms of talent (a far harder asset to replace than money)?

We can try to lock Matsuzaka up long-term at a reasonable contract. If Boras makes outrageous demands, then we walk away, and get our posting money back.

Make no mistake, Matsuzaka desperately wants to pitch in the US, and I've no doubt that he'll be pissed if Boras makes him waste another year in the Japanese League.

I mean, does anyone think Seattle's unhappy with their decision to pay Ichiro's team $13M?

ScarletKnight41
Oct 17 2006 04:54 PM

You guys know I love Bobby. But I also remember how he thought that Kaz Matsui was a can't miss MLB star.

Pass.

Nymr83
Oct 17 2006 04:56 PM

250 pitches in a high school game? i'd like to know what these minor injuries were before i'd bid.
nonetheless you get your money back if you can't work out a deal, so you might as well bid high if you're the Mets.

Edgy DC
Oct 17 2006 04:57 PM

Kaz Ishii was a probably ace also, but LA took a bath and a half on him.

It's no disrespect to Japanese ball to say that you have little idea of how a guy is going to translate until you seem him over here. No team knows more than the Mets.

Posting fees just throw the risk/reward ratios way out of whack.

Nymr83
Oct 17 2006 05:00 PM

of course you just fator in the amount you posted in your calculations. so if you were going to offer him 30 million over 3 and you post 10 million you'll offer him 20 million over 3, if he doesnt like it he can stay in japan another year and the mets get their 10 million back right?

soupcan
Oct 17 2006 05:09 PM

I'd just hate it if the Mets won the bid with say 15-20 mil then signed the guy to a 3-4 year deal at 10-12 per and he turns out to be Joe Average-san.

Sure the Mets have enough money to not be completely hamstrung but that didn't stop them from suffering through last season and parts of this with Matsui still getting plenty of PT.

I prefer Zito.

smg58
Oct 17 2006 05:11 PM

There's a difference between this guy and Ichiro, in the sense that the Mariners didn't really pay Ichiro a whole lot initially. This guy could command a bigger contract than Zito and cost another $20M on top of it.

I don't think anybody over here really knows enough to make a fair judgement on him. Is there a good place online to find his stats? How many innings is he working while running up obscene pitch counts? If he's pitching well upwards of 200, I'd definitely be concerned about his arm falling off. I'd also like to see his peripherals. Kaz Matsui had terrible K/BB ratios in Japan, and a AAA prospect with similar numbers would not have been considered "can't miss" by anybody.

So if Valentine liked Ichiro so much, and the 2001 Mets had a big hole in right field and in the leadoff spot, how did Phillips allow the Mariners to outbid him? Was he that high on Timo Perez?

Yancy Street Gang
Oct 17 2006 06:32 PM

The Mariners bid a huge amount.

Not bidding quite so high doesn't mean you prefer Timo Perez to Ichiro Suzuki.

Edgy DC
Oct 17 2006 06:39 PM

Nobody should be labeled "can't miss."

It's about managing risk, not about deluding ourselves that anybody is risk free. Nor do I think the Mets investment in Matsui suggested that they believed it.

Willets Point
Oct 17 2006 07:10 PM
Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Oct 17 2006 08:53 PM

Sign Matsuzaka NOW!!!!



Sorry, some things never cease being funny for me.

Frayed Knot
Oct 17 2006 08:08 PM

Theoretically at least, the contract you sign him for wouldn't need to be as high as a normal FA deal since, after you win the bid, he only has one team to bargain with and can't play your offer off against another like the Zitos of the world can.

The $13mil bid for Ichiro came as 'conventional wisdom' had it going as high as $10 in the weeks leading up to the deadline. The M's surprised folks that they bid as high as they did but the initial contract wasn't all that high (4 yrs @ approx $20 total?) due to the non-competing thing. Plus, he then only had the rights of a reg 4th year player (arb-eligible) when that deal ran out. The Matsui twins, on the other hand, were both true FAs which enabled them to negotiate better deals including getting a clause into their contracts that they couldn't be offered arbitration when the initial deals ran out, in effect making them FAs here earlier then they would normally earn it. Hidecki quickly re-upped w/the Yanx last year (at about a 65% increase) even though he was free to talk to others, while Kaz is now free to either strike a deal w/any U.S. team or go back to Japan since no MLB team currently holds his rights.

One would assume that a Matsuzaka/Boras duo would want that same out in a deal also and that they would be ready and willing to use the 'give me something approaching [u:9cff60caf6]real FA dollars[/u:9cff60caf6] or I'll stay in Japan one more season at which point I'll become a total FA and I don't care how much money you gave Seibu since none of that's going into my pocket' ploy. The success of Ichiro & H. Matsui put him in a stronger position than Ichiro was when he started this dance 6 years ago.

smg58
Oct 17 2006 08:17 PM

But at the very least, we'd have to beat what he could get in Japan. So how much is he worth over there?

Rotblatt
Oct 17 2006 09:19 PM

[url=http://japanesebaseball.com/players/player.jsp?PlayerID=1104]Matsuzaka Stats[/url]

[url=http://www.japaneseballplayers.com/en/player.php?id=matsuzaka]2006[/url]

[url=http://matsuzaka.blogspot.com/]Blog about Matsuzaka[/url], with translated stats, etc.

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQCbvYwHPoA]Video[/url] of Matsuzaka pitching.

As for his high pitch counts, he pitches on every sixth day, so it means less. Or does it? I've no idea how to translate his pitch counts, but it's certainly a different animal.

He had a groin injury that sidelined him in July. I'm not aware of any other injuries, but if he had some, they're probably on the above blog.

Davenport from BP translated his 2005 stats prior to the World Baseball Classic, and wound up with something like the following:

200 IP, 4.19 DERA (4.50 is average), 1.21 WHIP, 7 K/9, 3 BB/9, 0.7 HR/9

In other words, pretty similar to Barry Zito. I'm pretty sure the above is on the conservative side, but it'd probably be fair to pencil him in for that.

What we'd be paying for, IMO, would be upside, which I think unarguable Matsuzaka has more of than Zito.

Ideally, I'd like us to sign both of them, but that's probably crazy talk.

Rotblatt
Oct 17 2006 09:30 PM

smg58 wrote:
But at the very least, we'd have to beat what he could get in Japan. So how much is he worth over there?


I think they typically pay top players around $5-$8M but I could be wrong.

I've read that the expected salary for Matsuzaka would be between $8M - $12M per year for 3-4 years. To me, that's perfectly reasonable; it's the posting amount that's questionable, IMO.

Again, though, it's only money, not prospects.

cleonjones11
Oct 18 2006 12:30 AM

Maybe Warren Buffett and Bill Gates can buy him for us!

Edgy DC
Oct 18 2006 12:36 AM

Twenty million could buy a lot of prospects, I imagine.

A Boy Named Seo
Oct 18 2006 12:38 AM

From that blog:

"It's Magic!"

Rotblatt
Oct 23 2006 02:51 PM

Matsuzaka is skipping out on the MLB/NPB All Star Series, which starts this November.

Makes sense, since he's hoping to get posted and doesn't want to risk that precious arm of his.

[url=http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/sp20061022jg.html]Here's[/url] an article about Matsuzaka that draws on the experience of "Legendary scout Ray Poitevint, the general manager of International Operations for the Chicago White Sox, has signed more than 200 players who have reached the major leagues during his long career."

The dude from [url=http://matsuzaka.blogspot.com/]Matsuzaka Watch[/url] says Poitevint underestimates his slider and he's wrong on the the speed of Matsuzaka's fastball--according to him, it sits at between 91 & 93, with M getting up to 95 in a pinch. Which completely dovetails with what I saw in the WBC.

And finally, from a [url=http://sports.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=11375]Rob Neyer[/url] chat on ESPN:

]Anthony (Japan): Who do you see Matsuzaka going to? The latest reports here are saying he is going to the Mets.

Rob Neyer: (9:13 PM ET ) I would say the Mets are No. 1 candidate, because I suspect they'd love to have a Japanese star of their own. And they can afford him.

Yancy Street Gang
Oct 23 2006 02:54 PM

Rob Neyer wrote:
because I suspect they'd love to have a Japanese star of their own.


What kind of a reason is that?

Doesn't he know that Omar only likes Hispanic guys?


Rob Neyer wrote:
And they can afford him.


That's probably true.

metsmarathon
Oct 23 2006 04:08 PM

Yancy Street Gang wrote:
="Rob Neyer"]because I suspect they'd love to have a Japanese star of their own.


What kind of a reason is that?


marketing, kinda like ichiro and matsui presumably allow the M's and the mfy's

(potential) revenue stream = (sorta) good reason.

Frayed Knot
Oct 23 2006 04:19 PM

Baseball America's Jim Callis weighs in:

The bottom line is that Matsuzaka has a lively 90-96 mph fastball, a plus-plus slider, a splitter and a changeup. He has dominated in Japan and he dominated in the World Baseball Classic, where he was the MVP. In eight years in Japan, he has led the Pacific League in strikeouts four times, victories three times, ERA twice and won the Sawamura Award (the Japanese Cy Young Award) once. ... He's also 26, so he should have a lot of pitching ahead of him.

Without hesitation, I would take Matsuzaka over Zito or Schmidt or any other pitcher who will be on the free-agent market this offseason. Similarly, if Matsuzaka does come over, he has to rank as the game's best pitching prospect. His stuff is in the same class as Philip Hughes (Yankees) or Homer Bailey (Reds), and he has proven himself at a higher level.

It could cost $20 million to $30 million to win the rights to negotiate with Matsuzaka and at least twice that to sign him. Every big-budget team is expected to at least explore that possibility, and he's worth more to a club that doesn't already have a Japanese star because of the new revenue it could generate from Japanese TV and advertising rights. It's just a guess, but I could see him winding up with the Rangers, who need pitching in the worst way and never have been afraid to spend exorbitantly on Scott Boras clients.

Nymr83
Oct 23 2006 04:22 PM

when you take into account the posting fee, i think zito/schimdt would be cheaper. how much cheaper is a question.

what do you expect from this guy? if i told you now that you could have him for the same amount as zito which would you choose?

Frayed Knot
Oct 23 2006 04:32 PM

Well, considering that none of us has seen more than a few WBC innings from him it's kinda tough to answer that question.
But Callis from BA - who's not a scout himself but certainly talks to many of them about exactly this sort of thing - says "without hesitation" that he'd take Matsuzaka "over Zito or Schmidt or any other pitcher who will be on the free-agent market this offseason".

So if the money is the same ...

Rotblatt
Oct 23 2006 04:52 PM

To me, Zito is the safe bet, because you know what to expect with him, but if the money's equal, I'd definitely do Matsuzaka. People have been raving about him for years (since 2003 over on Baseball Prospectus) and he's put up remarkable numbers in Japan.

Of course, the money WON'T be equal--Matsuzka will command more than Zito once you factor in the posting fees. Although Zito will probably net at least a 5 year contract, and Matsuzaka is more likely to sign for 3 or 4, so the net money might be pretty similar . . .

I don't know. All I know is that during the WBC, Matsuzaka was impressive. Not as impressive as Gourriel, if you ask me, but pretty darn impressive nonetheless.

Oh, and as for expectations, this is clearly a shot in the dark, but for next year, I'd think:

200 IP, 3.75 ERA, 1.20 WHIP, 170 K, 60 BB

with a range of:

230 IP, 3.25, 1.15 WHIP, 200 K, 50 BB

to

175 IP, 4.25 ERA, 1.25 WHIP, 135 K, 65 BB

And figure he'll probably improve a bit the following year.

So in other words, I'd conservatively expect him to put up similar numbers to Zito, but with more strikeouts and fewer walks.

metsmarathon
Oct 23 2006 05:03 PM

the posting fee doesn't count against the salary cap does it? somehow that has to factor into the discussion in some exceeedingly small way.

ScarletKnight41
Oct 23 2006 05:04 PM

You have to figure that Zito being reunited with Rick Peterson would help his productivity.

It's no surprise to anyone who knows me that I'm hoping he signs with the Mets.

Nymr83
Oct 23 2006 06:12 PM

metsmarathon wrote:
the posting fee doesn't count against the salary cap does it? somehow that has to factor into the discussion in some exceeedingly small way.


you mean the luxury tax? i dont think it does

i think i'd go for zito myself, i'm scared that this guy could simply flop in the states. maybe he won't, but let it be someone else's problem especially with the shot-in-the-dark posting fee system.

smg58
Oct 24 2006 12:19 PM

ScarletKnight41 wrote:
You have to figure that Zito being reunited with Rick Peterson would help his productivity.


I'm leaning to Zito for the same reason. I also think that even the Zito of the past three seasons (or at least the past two) will do better than 3.75 in the National League.

Willets Point
Oct 24 2006 12:32 PM

Edgy DC wrote:
Twenty million could buy a lot of prospects, I imagine.


Or a lot of meat.

metirish
Oct 24 2006 04:26 PM
Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Oct 24 2006 04:33 PM

I've been thinking,lets say the winning bid is $25 million,would his Japenese team put pressure on him to sign with that team,if he doesn't sign and plays another year in Japan then he can walk as a FA...his team gets nothing,right?

Yancy Street Gang
Oct 24 2006 04:32 PM

And I wonder if the Japanese team can give him a cut of the $25 million to make sure he signs with the American team.

I mean, they can, but would it be seen as unethical around the Japanese league?

metirish
Oct 24 2006 04:34 PM

Excellent point Yancy....they must think we are awful eegits.

holychicken
Oct 24 2006 05:16 PM

I know it is stupid but everytime this is discussed, I can't shake Kaz from mind and it scares the hell out of me.

Nymr83
Oct 24 2006 09:22 PM

its a legitimate fear, theres alot of risk in bringing in a guy who hasn't played in the majors before and acting like he will suddenly be a veteran star.

heres all the guys i can think of that have come over, and my own 1-5 rating (1 being totally failed to meet expectations, 5 being exceeded expectations)

Nomo- 3
Ishii- 1
Irabu- 2
Yoshii- 3 (or am i just remembering him better than he was)
Shinjo- 3
H.Matsui- 4
Ichiro- 5
K.Matsui- 2
Saito- 5

i'm missing the reliever who came to seattle who i'd call a 2 without checking, am i missing anyone else?

metirish
Oct 24 2006 09:42 PM

Taguchi for St.Louis and the second baseman for the White Sox...rate them now.....

Nymr83
Oct 24 2006 09:49 PM

taguchi 3...i dont really remember what the expectations were for the white sox secondbaseman, but based on his contract i'll call him a 3 as well

exact numbers arent really important though, would anyone disagree with any of the following theories:
1. Japanese players so far have as often as not failed to live up to expectations
2. With the posting fee included, a Japanese veteran will likely give you less "bang for your buck" than an American who you expected the same stats out of.

metirish
Oct 24 2006 09:56 PM

My main problem with this guy is that with the huge posting fee and then contract the pressure on him will be freaking huge..Zito has won 102 games in the bigs...I'd rather the Mets give him the big contract.

Johnny Dickshot
Oct 24 2006 10:00 PM

]1. Japanese players


Because they're Japanese?

] so far have as often as not failed to live up to expectations


This is silly. 8 of 8 guys you mentioned had a MLB career, which probably beats "white people" or whatever other barely related subset you could come up with in terms of signed baseball players who meet or do not meet expectations. I don't think it's instructive to weigh where a player was born as an indicator of his ability to perform.

Keep in mind also not all players from Japan are posted -- only those yet to acheive free agency there (9 seasons I believe)

Nymr83
Oct 24 2006 10:08 PM

when i said "japanese players" i meant "players who are playing in the japanese baseball league" the fact that so far they have been ethnically japanese as well has nothing to do with it.

] I don't think it's instructive to weigh where a player was born as an indicator of his ability to perform.


me neither, my point is about the leagues there and how highly thought of players who play there are when they seek to come here. in my opinion they are over-valued.

Nymr83
Oct 24 2006 10:09 PM

metirish wrote:
My main problem with this guy is that with the huge posting fee and then contract the pressure on him will be freaking huge..Zito has won 102 games in the bigs...I'd rather the Mets give him the big contract.


the posting fee is reason number 1 to avoid the guy, yes.
if it didnt exist i'd probably still give a slight edge to wanting Zito.

Willets Point
Oct 24 2006 10:09 PM

metirish wrote:
My main problem with this guy is that with the huge posting fee and then contract the pressure on him will be freaking huge..Zito has won 102 games in the bigs...I'd rather the Mets give him the big contract.


It need not be either/or. The Mets rotation needs a lot of help. The Mets have a lot of $$$. Why not both?

metirish
Oct 24 2006 10:12 PM

Ok Mr.Wilpon, sorry Mr.Willets..I'm down with that...

Johnny Dickshot
Oct 24 2006 10:23 PM

] in my opinion they are over-valued.


I dunno if it's fair even to consider modestly paid/expected of guys like Yoshii or Shinjo alongside big-money guys like Ichiro.

Talent is talent.

Elster88
Oct 24 2006 10:24 PM

You forget how much the man hated Kaz.

It's perfectly logical for such a biased person to espouse opinions that have no basis in reality.

metirish
Oct 24 2006 10:27 PM

When did this posting bids start,was it with Ichiro...of all the players listed I would say Irabu,Ichiro and this guy came with very big expectations...Irabu was the next Nolan Ryan IIRC,then became the fat toad...

Edgy DC
Oct 25 2006 09:30 AM
Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Oct 25 2006 12:57 PM

My main concern with treating guys like Zito (and Glavine, for that matter), like an "ace," and paying them "ace money," is they have the pitchablity, but lack the fearsome stuff that allows them to just out-class the back half the lineup. There's typically only five or six such animals in the league.

You can call the Zitos "number-one pitchers", and in a good year they can do everything right and post a statistical season as well as those five or six pitchers, but that doesn't make them aces, and they shouldn't get treated as such because they became free agents in the year a team with money to blow needs pitching.

Let somebody else entertain me with the notion that Chan Ho Park or Denny Neagle or somebody is an ace just because they need him to be.

Even Mike Mussina. He's received $38 million the last two years for throwing up a 3.94 ERA, giving his team 377 innings. You know how many pretty good pitchers there who can give those numbers to a smart team for far fewer dollars?

If the market doesn't have the ace you're looking for, don't go nuts convincing yourself that Kevin Appier is the shit. Build a solid staff and try and grow some aces. The potential is certainly there.

The thing about investments is that good everyday players come with multiple tools. If one fails, they can still provide some return on your investment. A pitcher has his arm and his smarts. But if the arm fails, smarts can only help so much, and then you're hemmoraging money for years.

Edgy DC
Oct 25 2006 09:36 AM
Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Oct 25 2006 11:55 AM

My thinking is that the only guy who believed Irabu was the next Nolan Ryan was the one who named him "Fat Toad." And he's welcome to his delusions, distoritions, and inability to see the spectrum of gray between those two extremes.

metsmarathon
Oct 25 2006 09:47 AM

nomo was pretty good there for a while.

Rotblatt
Oct 25 2006 10:25 AM

]My main concern with treating guys like Zito (and Glavine, for that matter), like an "ace," and paying them "ace money," is they have the pitchablity, but lack the fearsome stuff that allows them to just out-class the back half the lineup. There's typically only five or six such animals in the league.

. . .

The thing about investments is that good everyday players come with multiple tools. If one fails, they can still provide some return on your investment. A pitcher has his arm and his smarts. But if the arm fails, smarts can only help so much, and then you're hemmoraging money for years.


Hear, hear, Edgy. I totally agree with you.

I do think it's instructive to look at how players from the Japanese League have done once they came over, although of course you have to do it in a systematic way. In [url=http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=1348]2002[/url], Davenport from Baseball Prospectus compared imports & exports' major league numbers versus their Japanese League numbers, and he came up with a .92-.94 modifier (1.00 is MLB), compared to .86 for AAA.

After converting the pitcher's JL numbers, he tested the results against their MLB performance:

Nomo
]I only have one year of Japanese data for Hideo Nomo (technically, I have Nomo's stats for prior years, but not the league's, so I can't run a DT). Except for walks, and the difference 2.5 walks per game makes on ERA, his overall performance has been identical.


Irabu
]Hideki Irabu's performance has to be rated as a definite disappointment; I don't think his velocity in America was as good as advertised, and the results were definitely less


Hasegawa
]Shigetoshi Hasegawa converted from a starter to a reliever when he came here. He's done a touch better than expected, but not remarkably so.


Yoshii
]Almost identical performances on both sides of the Pacific, in sum, by Masato Yoshii. Age is catching up with him.


Sasaki
]I didn't realize, until researching this article, that Kazuhiro Sasaki was the highest-paid player in Japan before leaving--which means Japanese front offices inflate a closer's value as badly as their American counterparts do. The fact is, though, that he was practically unhittable in Japan, and his performance here, good as it has been, is well below the levels he established for himself over there.


Kaz Ishii
]Kazuhisa Ishii is the left-hander the Dodgers bought the rights to this winter. He has a high-90s fastball and excellent slider, and was the most dominant strikeout pitcher in Japan. However, he has led the league in walks and wild pitches several times, he has missed parts of several seasons with arm trouble, and his strikeout and stuff numbers took a precipitous decline last season.


converted JL#'s in 2001: 4.01 ERA, 1.26 WHIP
MLB 2002-2005: 4.44 ERA, 1.53 WHIP

Satoru Komiyama
]Satoru Komiyama, who played for Bobby Valentine in Chiba in 1996, was picked up by the Mets this year. He's getting up in years--his stuff scores have declined four years in a row, and his strikeouts dropped from an acceptable mid-fives to a dangerous sub-fours level. Despite all that, he finished fourth in the league in ERA. Komiyama throws five different pitches with excellent control, with a reputation as a fierce competitor and team leader.


converted JL#'s (1997 - 2001): 4.21 ERA, 1.22 WHIP
MLB 2002: 5.61 ERA, 1.50 WHIP

Akinori Otsuka
]Japan's premier closer since Sasaki left, Akinori Otsuka throws a mid-90s fastball and a slider. He suffered from some elbow trouble in 1999, but it looks like he has recovered completely.


converted JL#'s (1997 - 2001): 2.89 ERA, 1.09 WHIP
MLB 2004-2006: 2.43 ERA, 1.18 WHIP

And the payoff, here's Matsuzaka's converted numbers from from 1999 - 2001:

3.59 ERA, 1.20 WHIP, 3.7 BB/9, 7.1 K/9, 0.9 HR/9

Keep in mind, he's gotten (a lot) better since 2001.

So anyway, there are some hits and some misses in terms of pitcher exports, but by and large, the Davenport translations seem to be in the right ballpark.

At any rate, it seems to me that it's easier to figure out how JL players will do in the majors than AAA pitchers . . .

Nymr83
Oct 25 2006 11:21 AM

]nomo was pretty good there for a while.

and pretty bad there for awhile, which is why i labeled him "as expected"
]At any rate, it seems to me that it's easier to figure out how JL players will do in the majors than AAA pitchers

even if thats true, you've already paid for the pitchers in your AAA system.

]You forget how much the man hated Kaz.
It's perfectly logical for such a biased person to espouse opinions that have no basis in reality.


are you still deluding yourself into thinking that kaz came anywhere near expectations?

metsmarathon
Oct 25 2006 11:33 AM

so then, is it fair to say that your opinion on japanese players is "temper your expectations" as opposed to "avoid at all costs"?

Nymr83
Oct 25 2006 11:43 AM

thats fair, but i'd have to add that i think theres alot more predictability in American veterans and i think the Japanese players have so far, if they haven't "broken even", been more likely to fail to meet expectations than to exceed them.

i still wouldnt touch Matsuzaka because of the posting fee, i mean theres no harm in a low bid, but if its really going to go as high as expected i wouldnt bother

Yancy Street Gang
Oct 25 2006 11:54 AM

Of course, you can't tell how high it's going to be at the time you have to place your bid.

It's possible that five teams will all bid about $5 million each, and one team will bid $30 million. In that case, that team will have wasted as much as $25 million.

You can't monitor the bidding; you just have to offer the highest amount you're willing to spend.

Rotblatt
Oct 25 2006 12:52 PM

]even if thats true, you've already paid for the pitchers in your AAA system.


Yes, but if we wanted, say, a "can't miss" prospect like Ryan Howard in 2003, what would it have taken to trade for him? David Wright? Jose Reyes?

I'd rather give up money for a young, "can't miss" prospect than equivalent talent every time, and make no mistake, Matsuzaka is at least as highly regarded as Howard was a few years ago.

Nymr83
Oct 25 2006 12:55 PM

]You can't monitor the bidding; you just have to offer the highest amount you're willing to spend.

another unfortunate part of this process to be sure.

how much will Zito get? i'll say 13.5 per year and 4 years.
is Matsuzaka worth more or less? he might have more of an upside but i think theres also a bigger risk of crash and burn. if we say he's worth the same amount how much can we really bid? even a "modest" $10 million bid means that you can then only offer the the player 11 million a year (more than that and you'd have been better off signing Zito hypothetically)

i guess my point is just that with the posting fee thrown in there i dont see signing him turning out to be the best decision.

metsmarathon
Oct 25 2006 01:07 PM

of course, that scenario leaves you with two-three extra million dollars in the subsequent years of the deal with which to sign additional players. the risk is greater only for the first year than the subsequent ones.

Nymr83
Oct 25 2006 01:11 PM

i was actually dividing the money up over the length of the contract.

metsmarathon
Oct 25 2006 01:19 PM

right.

2007 2008 2009 2010 total value
Matsuzaka 21 11 11 11 54
Zito 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.5 54


see, if they are paid the same over the length of the contract, and using your contract and posting fee assumptions, then in the last three years, we can better afford the risk of matsuzaka than of zito.

MFS62
Oct 25 2006 01:42 PM

As I said earlier, I've read that the posting fee may be as high as $20-30 million. And I expect Boras will negotiate a salary comparable to the $15 million per that he got for Chan Ho Park. So the lifetime cost of the contract (even at an amortized $20 million figure) would be far greater than what might be paid to Zito.
Yes, he wouldn't have multiple teams to play off against each other. But if Seattle, LA or New York win the negotiating rights, he will have the "large Asian population you wouldn't want to piss off by losing him" card to play.
Later

Edgy DC
Oct 25 2006 01:45 PM
Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Oct 25 2006 06:48 PM

I think the Mets access to Japanese living in Japan is far more important to them than their access to Japanese Americans living in New York. I think the marektability of Japanese players are worth more to virtually any team that way, except maybe San Francisco.

metirish
Oct 25 2006 01:49 PM

Do you think baseball teams think like that though, it's common in soccer for a team to buy a player because "he can sell replica shirts in asia",it's the main reason Real Madrid bought Beckam and not Ronaldihno,he was deemed"to ugly to sell shirts" by the then Real president.

MFS62
Oct 25 2006 01:50 PM

Good point.
Would the Mets (or any team) feed their games to Japan, for them to do studio voice overs? Or would the Japanese carry the games on their own network, with announcers here? I forget which way the MFYs did it with Hidecki Matsui.

Later

Yancy Street Gang
Oct 25 2006 01:59 PM

I'm not sure what the story is about telecasts in Japan, but if you look at the blackout rules for MLB.TV, Japan is mentioned explicitly.

In other words, I can't watch Brewers games if I live in the Milwaukee area, or in Japan.

And I can't watch Royals games if I live in the Kansas City area. Or Japan.

I can watch in Uganda and Switzerland and Pakistan and Australia and Korea, but not Japan.

I assume that's because there's some other pay package they'd want me to get if I lived in Japan, but I have no idea what it might be.

MFS62
Oct 25 2006 02:05 PM

I think Georgie cut a special deal between YES and a Japanese network. Or maybe MLB put in that rule as a result of what George did.
Later

Frayed Knot
Oct 25 2006 03:37 PM

* I don't believe that individual teams can make TV deals in Japan

* Any media money that is generated overseas is league money - ie. spread around among the 30 teams

metsmarathon
Oct 25 2006 03:40 PM

but the merchandise sales would go to the team... as well as any royalties for using team imagery in marketing with the player.

metirish
Oct 25 2006 03:42 PM

BTW,Beltran has pulled out of the Japan tour.

Frayed Knot
Oct 25 2006 03:55 PM

metsmarathon wrote:
but the merchandise sales would go to the team... as well as any royalties for using team imagery in marketing with the player.


Most merchandise money is treated as league-wide money also.

The benefit to a team like the Yanx with a big Japanese star is more indirect than direct. If/when Japanese TV carries games they're more likely to be NYY (or Seattle) games which "spreads the brand name" to a new market.

Yancy Street Gang
Oct 25 2006 04:02 PM

When I'm in Japan next month I'll keep my eyes out for signs of Major League Baseball.

When I was in Puerto Rico I frequently saw photos of Hispanic (and not necessarily Puerto Rican) baseball players hanging up in stores and restaurants. I wonder if I'll see similar pictures of Ichiro or Hideki Matsui in Tokyo or Kyoto.

I'll also report back on how much I see of MLB logos and merchandise, other than the Mets cap that will frequently be on my head.

In Italy two years ago I saw almost nothing of the Mets, and refreshingly little of the Yankees. A lot of Red Sox stuff, but they had just won their long awaited World Championship.

Willets Point
Oct 25 2006 04:11 PM

Last year in Venice I saw two different people in Mets gear.

Nymr83
Oct 25 2006 04:26 PM

even if merchandise money money is pooled (which i didn't think it was) there has to be some benefit to the Mets of having people walking around Japan with Mets hats, creating a generation of Mets fans (or at least people who can identify the Mets before they could identify the Braves/Cardinals)

I have, by the way, seen a Japanese Mets hat, i think i was in Cooperstown at the time

here is the hebrew one, i can't find it in Japanese online but hte idea is the same

Nymr83
Oct 25 2006 04:27 PM

Willets Point wrote:
Last year in Venice I saw two different people in Mets gear.


somewhere in Aftica there will soon be a whole village of children wearing Mets 2006 National League Champions shirts.

Elster88
Oct 26 2006 01:58 AM

So when are we going to sign this guy?

Yancy Street Gang
Oct 26 2006 06:25 AM

I think the bidding is going to happen "shortly after November 1."

If he becomes a Met, I'll visit him in Japan and start the orientation process.

metirish
Oct 26 2006 08:28 AM

I'm so jealous that you are going to Japan Yancy,I'd love to visit,watched "Lost in Translation" again recently...love that flick.

Edgy DC
Oct 26 2006 08:31 AM

I sure don't want to visit the Japan depicted in Lost in Translation.

MFS62
Oct 26 2006 09:46 AM

Yancy Street Gang wrote:
I'll visit him in Japan and start the orientation process.


Isn't that redundant? Or unnecessary?

Later

Frayed Knot
Oct 26 2006 09:51 AM

It's just politcally incorrect.

The proper term is now Asianization process

MFS62
Oct 26 2006 10:00 AM
Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Oct 26 2006 10:02 AM

="Frayed Knot"]It's just politcally incorrect.

The proper term is now Asianization process


Funny.

IIRC, the use of the word "orient" as a verb does not mean how it is commonly used, as in "I will orient you in the proper way to do this" (probably a poor example).
To orient someone is to bury them with their head toward the East.
You don't say "oriention" when it should be "orientation".

In the example I gave above, and the comment Yancy correctly made, the proper word is to orientate someone.

But , if FK is correct about the new PC word, its all moot. They will be using that new term jutl like people now use the word impact because they don't know whether effect or affect should be used.

Later

soupcan
Oct 26 2006 10:00 AM



JUDGMENT DAI
By JOEL SHERMAN


October 26, 2006 -- ST. LOUIS - Daisuke Matsuzaka is about to add a big arm, a huge financial commitment and a giant mystery onto the major-league landscape.

Matsuzaka, arguably Japan's best starter, is going to be posted by his Japanese team in the next few weeks. Essentially that means, every team will have 72 hours to make a blind bid not to sign the 26-year-old righty, but merely to gain the exclusive rights to negotiate with him for 30 days and have his Japanese team, the Seibu Lions, accept the bid.

If Seibu accepts after the U.S. Commissioners Office passes along the high bid, then Scott Boras takes over. And the hard-bargaining agent said yesterday that "Matsuzaka's value is that he is a No. 1-type starter, and that is the basis of negotiations."

So the price of doing business for a player who has yet to pitch in the majors could be staggering. The most commonly quoted price you hear for just the posting bid is $20 million. But one NL GM whose team plans to participate said his staff has made the "under-over $33 million." There is a feeling that one rogue owner, a Tom Hicks from Texas, for example, could simply decide he wants the player so much that he bids extravagantly to assure gaining negotiating rights.

There also is a school of thought that the team that wins the posting exclusivity gains leverage because either Matsuzaka accepts whatever that club offers or else he has to return to play for Seibu for one more year before he gains complete free agency, and that could be humiliating for the player to return. However, Boras, who does not cede leverage to any adversary, said, "Obviously, you look at pitcher like this, he is very young, he's going to come over on his term or wait. [Playing here] is an option for him, not a necessity."

So is Matsuzaka worth this kind of outlay, possibly in the five-year, $75 million range on top of the posting cost if he is really treated as a true ace? Yankees assistant GM Jean Afterman, the executive most versed in the organization on Japanese baseball, has visited the country several times in the last year, including in the last week, to gain as much intelligence as possible. Over the summer, Mets GM Omar Minaya dispatched one of his most trusted aides, Russ Bove, to watch Matsuzaka. Both New York clubs are going to be players, and there is an industry feeling that the Yanks will go hard for this pitcher, as will the Mariners. The Dodgers, Red Sox and Rangers also are expected to be among the many teams that bid for Matsuzaka.

Here is why: "He is a world-class pitcher," said Bobby Valentine, manager of the Chiba Lotte Marines. "He has very good off-speed stuff and terrific command. He has a fastball between 90-95 [mph], pitches at about 90. He has a curve, slider, change and split. His change is one of the best in the world. He likes to compete and his only problem would be the number of pitches thrown in his life. This year he was a notch below the past two seasons. He had minor injuries and had more hittable pitches than before, but I think it was because of the [World Baseball Classic]."

Valentine's assessment matches that of just about every executive questioned about Matsuzaka's skills. An NL GM described Matsuzaka as "in the discussion about the top 10 pitches in the world." An NL scout said, "He's a no. 1 starter. He has command of five pitches. Across the board he has nasty stuff. If he were here this year for the Yankees, he starts Game 1 of the playoffs." Multiple officials made note of Matsuzaka's "gyro" pitch, a slider-sinker hybrid that baffles hitters.

The only doubts on Matsuzaka were expressed by an NL director of international scouting who loves the pitcher, but said, "Can he adjust to pitching in a five-man rotation instead of pitching once a week as he does in Japan? And, despite, his age, he has thrown a lot of innings and pitches in his career."

Edgy DC
Oct 26 2006 10:11 AM

I guess there's not much but mutual mistrust stopping the interested parties from colluding --- getting together and opening their sealed bids to one-another, so the high bidder goes no more than a million over the next guy.

But I don't think they'll try that.

Yancy Street Gang
Oct 26 2006 10:23 AM

I don't either. Never underestimate the power of mutual mistrust.

Edgy DC
Oct 26 2006 10:33 AM
Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Oct 26 2006 11:01 AM

Or, on second thought, of retribution if the honor-bound Japanese get wind of it.

metirish
Oct 26 2006 10:56 AM

Is that a lot of innings for a 26 year old...1,402....

EDIT - Zito has 1430+ innings..so I guess it's not.

Nymr83
Oct 26 2006 04:32 PM

back page of the Post today: "YENKEE" with Matsuzaka's picture... god i hope they lose the bid, i really dont care to who.

Yancy Street Gang
Oct 26 2006 04:34 PM

Or they can win it and have the guy pitch like a klutz.

seawolf17
Oct 26 2006 05:09 PM

I'd rather what Yancy said. I want them to spend $80 million and find out he's Hideki Irabu.

SteveJRogers
Oct 26 2006 05:22 PM

seawolf17 wrote:
I'd rather what Yancy said. I want them to spend $80 million and find out he's Hideki Irabu.


Or the pitching version of Hideki Matsui (Irabu at least had moments)

Nymr83
Oct 26 2006 05:50 PM

SteveJRogers wrote:
="seawolf17"]I'd rather what Yancy said. I want them to spend $80 million and find out he's Hideki Irabu.


Or the pitching version of Hideki Matsui (Irabu at least had moments)


i hope you mean KAZ matsui, because Hideki has ended up pretty good

SteveJRogers
Oct 26 2006 05:56 PM

Nymr83 wrote:
="SteveJRogers"]
="seawolf17"]I'd rather what Yancy said. I want them to spend $80 million and find out he's Hideki Irabu.


Or the pitching version of Hideki Matsui (Irabu at least had moments)


i hope you mean KAZ matsui, because Hideki has ended up pretty good


Yeah I did mean Kaz

D'OH!

metirish
Oct 29 2006 05:58 PM

Lads this fella has some nasty stuff



this one claims to show his gyro ball

Edgy DC
Oct 29 2006 08:13 PM

The play of his team's defense was turning me off.

metirish
Oct 29 2006 08:22 PM

Yeah the defence is atrocious...there is some who think that there is no such thing as a gyro pitch....including H Matsui.

]

Matsuzaka: Man with a mystery pitch
By PETER ABRAHAM
THE JOURNAL NEWS


(Original publication: October 29, 2006)


t sounds like the plot of a comic book. A Japanese scientist, working in secret, uses a supercomputer to develop a new pitch that is virtually unhittable. One player masters it and becomes so dominant that the Yankees pay nearly $100 million to bring him to America.

Only this urban legend just might be true.

The scientist is named Ryutaro Himeno, the pitch is called the gyroball, and by the end of next month, Daisuke Matsuzaka could well be in pinstripes.

Don't believe it? Go to YouTube.com and see for yourself. At last count, there were five videos on the popular Internet site purporting to show the gyroball. In each grainy clip, Matsuzaka unleashes a pitch that starts high in the strike zone, then dives for the inside corner.

The ball seems to spiral like a football, yet doesn't have the familiar loop of a curveball. It instead takes a left turn as it reaches the plate.

The hapless batter either looks at the pitch in disbelief, bat left on his shoulder, or swings and misses by 2 feet.

Himeno consulted with a former player, Kaz Tezuka, to develop the gyroball four years ago. They wrote a book that described how a pitcher, using precise motions with his hips and shoulders, could throw the miracle pitch. Double-spin mechanics is the rough translation of their theory.

There are dissenters, and they have impeccable credentials. Yale professor emeritus Robert Adair, author of "The Physics of Baseball,'' has studied the gyroball and determined that throwing a baseball in a spiral would have no bearing on its trajectory.

"The pitch would seem to be useless in baseball,'' Adair said. "It might be useful as a changeup, but I rather doubt it.''

Adair also did not believe the pitch was new, comparing it to a "googly'' in cricket.

Hideki Matsui, the Yankees' outfielder and a former star in Japan, has heard reports of the gyroball but doesn't believe it exists.

"No, no, just a story,'' he said. "It's a good slider.''

Japanese pitchers, Matsui explained, throw a variety of breaking pitches. The gyroball is merely a variation.

Matsuzaka himself claims not to throw a gyroball, but always with a smile as though he is in on the joke. When he pitched for Japan in the World Baseball Classic last March, Matsuzaka said he was working on the pitch.

Whatever he is throwing, Matsuzaka is clearly onto something. A 26-year-old right-hander, Matsuzaka was 17-5 with a 2.13 ERA for the Seibu Lions this season. In 186 1/3 innings, he allowed only 138 hits and struck out 200.

Matsuzaka was 3-0 with a 1.38 ERA in the WBC and was named MVP after allowing one run in four innings against Cuba in the championship game.

Trey Hillman, manager of the Nippon Ham Fighters, believes Matsuzaka could be a No. 1 starter.

"He has a 95-mph fastball and he gets tough with men on base,'' Hillman said. "He won't back down and he has a lot of discipline. You wouldn't be taking a big chance if you signed him.''

Seibu has "posted'' Matsuzaka, meaning that any team in the Major Leagues can submit a sealed bid to obtain his rights for 30 days. That process could start tomorrow now that the Japan Series is over.

The winning bid for Matsuzaka will likely be in excess of $20 million. The Yankees, Mets, Mariners, Red Sox, Dodgers and Tigers are expected to be among the bidders.

Matsuzaka is said to favor the Mariners, but the Yankees have tried to negate that by hiring one of his friends, former Seibu teammate Shoichi Kida, as a scout. Assistant general manager Jean Afterman has been to Japan several times in recent months to gather information on Matsuzaka.

Matsuzaka has retained Scott Boras as his agent. Given his history with pitchers, Boras will seek a four-year contract worth at least $55 million. All told, it could take $80 million to bring Matsuzaka to America — more than the entire payroll of 15 teams last season.

It's a lot. But it would bring an ace in return and perhaps a pitch you have to see to believe.

For a YouTube.com link of a video showing Matsuzaka pitching, go to

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sboi0EWp8ao

Rockin' Doc
Oct 29 2006 08:49 PM

His fastball tends to tail in on a right handed hitter. The "gyroball" looks like a very good 12 to 6 curveball. Nothing new that MLB hitters haven't seen before, but still a very good pitch.

metirish
Oct 29 2006 08:51 PM

Matsui claims "it's a good slider"...

Valadius
Nov 02 2006 11:34 AM

The Mariners are apparently out of the bidding, or so says their GM.

Yancy Street Gang
Nov 02 2006 07:46 PM

]Matsuzaka bidding begins; Mariners say they won't bid
November 2, 2006

NEW YORK (AP) -- Major league teams wishing to sign Japanese pitcher Daisuke Matsuzaka must submit their offers by 5 p.m. EST next Wednesday -- and the Seattle Mariners won't be bidding.

Matsuzaka was officially put up for auction Thursday by the Seibu Lions of Japan's Pacific League. After the bidding has closed, the Lions will be told of the highest offer, without being informed of which team made it. The Lions have until Nov. 14 to accept.

If the offer is accepted, the big league team that made the bid is notified and gets a 30-day window to reach a contract agreement with Matsuzaka, who is represented by agent Scott Boras. The Lions only receive the payment from the major league team if Matsuzaka is signed to a big league contract.

The New York Yankees, Boston Red Sox and New York Mets are thought to be interested in Matsuzaka.

Matsuzaka was MVP of the World Baseball Classic in March, then went 17-5 with a 2.13 ERA and 200 strikeouts for the Lions. He throws in the high-90s mph, has good offspeed pitches and is known for the "gyroball," a pitch that breaks to the left.

Seattle general manager Bill Bavasi said Thursday that the Mariners won't bid. Bavasi said the decision was made by Nintendo Co. president Hiroshi Yamauchi, the boss of team chairman Howard Lincoln.

"Mr. Yamauchi has decided that the Mariners will not be participating in the bid process, a decision with which our baseball department concurs," Bavasi said. "We will continue to pursue other ways other ways to improve the team, specifically our pitching."

metirish
Nov 02 2006 07:50 PM

I wonder if this decision will impact Icirho and weather he wants to stay in Seattle.

Nymr83
Nov 02 2006 07:52 PM

is Seattle bluffing?

metirish
Nov 02 2006 07:57 PM

Why would they bluff though?

Elster88
Nov 02 2006 08:19 PM

I wonder how much the Nintendo guy is worth.

metirish
Nov 04 2006 10:32 PM

Interesting bit form a NYT article....

]

If the Lions hold onto Matsuzaka, they may very well wind up with nothing in return. By posting him, they will get a windfall. Precisely how much, though, may never be known.

Quoting an unnamed Lions executive, the Japanese newspaper Sankei Sports reported last Friday that three unidentified major league teams had approached the executive about setting up a prearranged deal for Matsuzaka.

The executive told the newspaper that he did not engage the teams in conversation because he considered it tampering. But, in theory, a team could effectively tell the Lions: “We want to get Matsuzaka. What if we bid $50 million to make sure we win his rights, and then we paid you $20 million?”

The Seattle Mariners had a working agreement with the Orix Blue Wave, Ichiro Suzuki’s old team, before winning his negotiating rights with a $13 million bid in 2000. There have long been rumors that the Mariners never had to pay the full amount.

Frayed Knot
Nov 05 2006 09:23 PM

ESPN's Buster Olney put forth another shady arrangement; one where some team like Baltimore or Toronto puts in a sky-high bid and then low-ball the Mataszka/Boras team in negotiations. With no other teams to bargain with, he'd have to return to Japan and try again next year when he'd be a true FA. Meanwhile, the O's & Jays would keep him out of the hands of the Yanx & BoSox for at least one more year.
Olney said he did NOT expect this to happen, only that it could.


btw, the first name is apparently pronounced along the lines of Dice-Kay
Decent article in today's [url=http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/ny-spjapan054962712nov05,0,7967886.story?coll=ny-baseball-headlines]Newsday[/url] about DM and the concept of "doryoku".

metirish
Nov 05 2006 09:28 PM

Good article,thanks for posting FK, good to see MLB is trying to change the posting system...

Edgy DC
Nov 05 2006 09:29 PM

If he fails to reach an agreement after X (30?) days, doesn't the posting team get to offer negotiating rights to the next highest bidder?

Would Torontimore just be delaying and (angering) the Yank Sox?

Frayed Knot
Nov 05 2006 09:38 PM

Edgy DC wrote:
If he fails to reach an agreement after X (30?) days, doesn't the posting team get to offer negotiating rights to the next highest bidder?


Nope, it's a one-shot, all-er-nuthin' deal.
Matsuaka will play this year for the team that wins his MLB negotiating rights or with the JPL team that currently owns him.


]Would Torontimore just be delaying and (angering) the Yank Sox?


Probably. But teams throwing wrenches into the works of opponents is nothing new.

metirish
Nov 05 2006 09:39 PM

I don't think so Edgy, apparently the winning bid has exclusive rights to chat with Boras and they can't reach an agreement then the bid is given back and he plays the next season in Japan.

Nymr83
Nov 05 2006 10:10 PM

]ESPN's Buster Olney put forth another shady arrangement; one where some team like Baltimore or Toronto puts in a sky-high bid and then low-ball the Mataszka/Boras team in negotiations. With no other teams to bargain with, he'd have to return to Japan and try again next year when he'd be a true FA. Meanwhile, the O's & Jays would keep him out of the hands of the Yanx & BoSox for at least one more year.
Olney said he did NOT expect this to happen, only that it could.


of course, this could backfire on them if the Japanese team decides it wants the money, they could tell Matsuzaka to accept the "low ball" offer with the understanding that they'll pay him 1/3-1/2 of the gigantic fee.

Yancy Street Gang
Nov 06 2006 08:59 AM

Frayed Knot wrote:

btw, the first name is apparently pronounced along the lines of Dice-Kay


That doesn't seem right to me. The first syllable should rhyme with "Guy" The second syllable would be Sue and the third would be Ke with a short E.

Dai Su Ke.

No accent on any of the syllables.

Of course, if he does come to America, announcers will probably mispronounce his name, and the mispronounciation will become standard.

Edgy DC
Nov 06 2006 09:02 AM

I imagine the "oo" in the second syllable is run so as to be largely inaudible to many ears.

Edgy DC
Nov 06 2006 09:31 AM

Interesting posting trivia:

Ichiro Suzuki was not, as is commonly reported, the first player "posted" by his Japanese team/player for whom the system was devaloped.

Ichiro was posted following the 2000 season, but two players were posted by the Hiroshima Toyo Carp before the 1999 season. One (Alejandro Quezada) was claimed by Cincinnati for a 400,001 bid (nice e-bay move of going one over a round number) but never progressed beyond AA, and the other (Timo Perez, ladies and gentlemen) wasn't bid on at all and resigned with the Carp.

Yancy Street Gang
Nov 06 2006 09:37 AM

Edgy DC wrote:
I imagine the "oo" in the second syllable is run so as to be largely inaudible to many ears.


Good point. I've found that the u sound ("oo") is the one that's most commonly silent.

Frayed Knot
Nov 06 2006 09:43 AM

As in when the pronounciation of Akinori Otsuka went from Oat-Soo-Ka when he first came over into Oats-Ka as Americans got corrected and the middle syllable got swallowed in the process.

So that mainly leaves us with the final syllable question ('Kay' vs 'Keh') as the initial 'Dais' as 'Dice' is pretty much the same as your 'Guys'. Maybe 'Dize' would have been a better choice for the writer of the Newsday article.

MFS62
Nov 06 2006 10:17 AM

Nymr83 wrote:
]ESPN's Buster Olney put forth another shady arrangement; one where some team like Baltimore or Toronto puts in a sky-high bid and then low-ball the Mataszka/Boras team in negotiations. With no other teams to bargain with, he'd have to return to Japan and try again next year when he'd be a true FA. Meanwhile, the O's & Jays would keep him out of the hands of the Yanx & BoSox for at least one more year.
Olney said he did NOT expect this to happen, only that it could.


of course, this could backfire on them if the Japanese team decides it wants the money, they could tell Matsuzaka to accept the "low ball" offer with the understanding that they'll pay him 1/3-1/2 of the gigantic fee.


My devious mind has come up with another possibility.

For many years, Japanese Corporations have entered into clandestine agreements with each other to manipulate a market. For example, when FAX machines were new, the seven major manufacturers of those devices would meet on a quarterly basis and decide which company would be the first to introduce a new function/feature to the worldwide market.

That said, it has been mentioned here (I think by Edgy) that there are tremendous marketing possibilities for an alliance between Japanese Companies (which already give their teams corporare names) and the US market. IIRC, this was in a discussion about the YES network cross-marketing Hidecki Matsui. So, I wouldn't be surprised if the Japanese team holding Matsuzaka's contract to tell one "preferred" large market US suitor, "I'll tell the bidders that the price is X. If you bid X+ 1 million, he's yours".

It wouldn't be ethical. But it wouldn't be prescedent setting, either.

Later

Frayed Knot
Nov 06 2006 11:56 AM

The Sunday NYTimes article that Irish quotes from above mentions several ways that "rigging" of the process could occur.
It also says that Selig has the right to review any and all paperwork and could step in and award the rights to the 2nd highest bidder if he thought some sort of fraud was concerned. My earlier answer that this wouldn't happen was that the set-up does not automatically revert the rights to the next highest bidder simply due to Matusaka/Boras not being about to strike a deal with the highest.

metirish
Nov 08 2006 02:34 PM

The deadline for bids is today at 5PM,I'm going to guess that the winning bid will be $28M.....

Yancy Street Gang
Nov 08 2006 02:40 PM

I wonder when we find out who won the rights. I read somewhere that we might find out today, but other things I've read indicate that it might be as many as four days until we learn which team bid highest.

metirish
Nov 08 2006 02:41 PM

Yeah the Lions have four days to accept or reject,kinda cool if we found out tonight that the Mets had won the bid.

metsmarathon
Nov 08 2006 05:27 PM

i'll say $30M

Vic Sage
Nov 08 2006 05:37 PM

$25m

sharpie
Nov 08 2006 05:45 PM

$24.9 million

Nymr83
Nov 08 2006 06:40 PM

$28,000,101

Yancy Street Gang
Nov 08 2006 07:04 PM

Where's Bob Barker when you need him?

Elster88
Nov 08 2006 07:04 PM

26

Johnny Dickshot
Nov 08 2006 07:19 PM

1 dollar

Elster88
Nov 08 2006 07:22 PM

I saw a lot of clowns bid 1 on that show when they weren't the last guy to bid.

Edgy DC
Nov 08 2006 07:58 PM

16.5

Nymr83
Nov 08 2006 08:07 PM

Elster88 wrote:
I saw a lot of clowns bid 1 on that show when they weren't the last guy to bid.


i've seen the next guy say "2" and teach them a lesson

its a good strategy if you're the last one to go and feel that theres a decent chance they all went over, but if you arent last you need to make an accurate guess

DocTee
Nov 08 2006 08:20 PM

23.5

Elster88
Nov 08 2006 09:55 PM

Nymr83 wrote:
="Elster88"]I saw a lot of clowns bid 1 on that show when they weren't the last guy to bid.


i've seen the next guy say "2" and teach them a lesson

its a good strategy if you're the last one to go and feel that theres a decent chance they all went over, but if you arent last you need to make an accurate guess


Well yeah thats where I was going.

patona314
Nov 08 2006 11:00 PM

based from the rumors I've read, it seems that Matsuzaka is dictating where he wants to go... and that's NY. Rumors also state that he likes being the "STAR" of the team ( been that way since he was 15). Considering that Godzilla is on the other side of town, The Mets seem like his logical goal (based off rumors of course). Which is great for us... unless... well, you guys can fill in the rest.

Johnny Dickshot
Nov 08 2006 11:09 PM

Elster88 wrote:
I saw a lot of clowns bid 1 on that show when they weren't the last guy to bid.


Bids on TPIR should be keyed into a pad on the podium secretly and displayed for the audience, not the other contestants. If you're stupid, you're stupid.

patona314
Nov 08 2006 11:20 PM

Johnny Dickshot wrote:
="Elster88"]I saw a lot of clowns bid 1 on that show when they weren't the last guy to bid.


Bids on TPIR should be keyed into a pad on the podium secretly and displayed for the audience, not the other contestants. If you're stupid, you're stupid.


Unless Bob Barker and Adam Sandler are in the same sentence...STFU

Rockin' Doc
Nov 09 2006 12:15 AM

patona -"based from the rumors I've read, it seems that Matsuzaka is dictating where he wants to go... and that's NY. Rumors also state that he likes being the "STAR" of the team ( been that way since he was 15). Considering that Godzilla is on the other side of town, The Mets seem like his logical goal (based off rumors of course). Which is great for us... unless... well, you guys can fill in the rest."

Unless, we land him for big bucks and he turns out to be the second coming of Hidecki Irabu.

cleonjones11
Nov 09 2006 02:26 AM

Give Diasuke a MFY Uniform now...We're wasting our time thinking he will be a Met

Our history with Japanese pitchers of any price is underwhelming....

Edgy DC
Nov 09 2006 07:34 AM

I'm not thinking one way or another.

I don't care about our five-deep history with Japanese pitchers.

Yancy Street Gang
Nov 09 2006 09:52 AM

And his preference, if he has one, doesn't factor into this at all. The only option he has if his rights go to a team he doesn't want to play for would be to refuse to sign and stay with the Lions for one more season.

86-Dreamer
Nov 09 2006 01:35 PM

$16.5 million is my guess.

Edgy DC
Nov 09 2006 01:49 PM

Uh-uh. No, it's not.

soupcan
Nov 10 2006 01:31 PM

Early unconfirmed report is that the Red Sox are the high bidder with somewhere between $28 and $45 million.

Yowzer, that's some serious sashimi.

HahnSolo
Nov 10 2006 01:35 PM

38-45 million, per Buster Olney, citing MLB sources.

Wow.

Edgy DC
Nov 10 2006 01:37 PM

That's a payroll for a small market club.

DocTee
Nov 10 2006 01:39 PM

A tactic to keep him from the Bronx for a year? Post a ridiculously high bid, then don't even try to sign him...you lose nothing in that scenario, right?

Yancy Street Gang
Nov 10 2006 01:40 PM

Right.

soupcan
Nov 10 2006 01:42 PM

But who is to say that if the highest bidding team doesn't sign him they can't move down the ladder to next highest?

Is there a rule somewhere that says they can"t do that?

Centerfield
Nov 10 2006 01:55 PM

I thought that was what happened.

smg58
Nov 10 2006 02:00 PM

I thought Selig could reject a bid he didn't consider to be in good faith.

If Matsuzaka is a free agent next year, whoever signs him would only get one year at a discount. That should severely limit what people are willing to bid on him, but nobody seems to be talking like that. Strange.

patona314
Nov 10 2006 02:04 PM

In case anyone is interested, it's pretty up to date:

http://matsuzaka.blogspot.com/

metirish
Nov 10 2006 03:05 PM

From ESPN...

]

The Boston Red Sox may have posted the top bid for the right to negotiate with Japanese right-hander Daisuke Matsuzaka, according to Major League Baseball sources.

There has been no official announcement, and the Seibu Lions, Matsuzaka's team in Japan, have until Tuesday to accept or reject the high bid.

But, according to officials monitoring the bidding, the Red Sox bid may be between $38 million and $45 million.

Matsuzaka, who pitched for Japan's World Baseball Classic champions, is considered among the top prospects available this offseason.

If the Lions accept the top bid, the winning bidder has 30 days to reach an agreement with Matsuzaka. If a deal cannot be reached, he would return to the Lions for the 2007 Japanese baseball season.


By 5 p.m. Wednesday, major league teams interested in bidding on the rights to deal with Matsuzaka had to post a sealed bid. Major League Basball then took the highest bid and forwarded only the dollar figure -- not the identity of the team -- to the Seibu Lions.

According to a source within Major League Baseball, as of Friday afternoon, Seibu had not informed MLB officially whether it had accepted the bid.

There are three reasons the deal would make sense for the Red Sox:


• Talent evaluators who have seen Matsuzaka say he's a top of the rotation-quality pitcher who would improve the Red Sox staff.

• If Boston signs him it would effectively plant a Red Sox flag in the growing Far East market.

[code:1][/code:1]

Johnny Dickshot
Nov 10 2006 03:22 PM

]alent evaluators who have seen Matsuzaka say he's a top of the rotation-quality pitcher who would improve the Red Sox staff.


He fucking better.

Rockin' Doc
Nov 10 2006 11:40 PM

Cheap ass Mets get outbid again. As badly as the Mets need a top of the rotation guy, they come up short in their bid for the rights to the one guy that could help them improve. Once again, the Mets have underestimated the resolve of the opposing bidders. I swear, this damn organization just doesn't have a clue.




I think I just hurt myself.

metirish
Nov 10 2006 11:45 PM

I know you are taking the piss Doc...

patona314
Nov 11 2006 07:09 AM

Rockin' Doc wrote:
Cheap ass Mets get outbid again. As badly as the Mets need a top of the rotation guy, they come up short in their bid for the rights to the one guy that could help them improve. Once again, the Mets have underestimated the resolve of the opposing bidders. I swear, this damn organization just doesn't have a clue.


big picture dude............................dontrelle



I think I just hurt myself.

Yancy Street Gang
Nov 12 2006 01:49 PM

How long does it take to mull over a $30 million bid?

I'm surprised the Lions haven't accepted the bid and allowed the negotiations to begin. I'd be very eager to get the ball rolling so that I could collect that loot.

I wonder, though, if perhaps the highest bid wasn't really as high as the Lions had hoped, and they're considering keeping Daisuke for his final season.

Probably not, but who really knows?

Nymr83
Nov 12 2006 02:03 PM

thats an awful lot of dough, i don't know what Japanese payrolls look like but i'd have to imagine that 30 mil is 1/2 the average team's payroll for the year...

Elster88
Nov 12 2006 08:16 PM

We don't really know that it's the Red Sox yet, right?

metirish
Nov 12 2006 08:17 PM

No we don't conflicting reports have the Rangers with the highest bid,an announcent is expected Monday.

Rotblatt
Nov 13 2006 03:59 PM

Reports out of Japan are that the Red Sox were the highest bidders, at $42M. Gammons just said the same thing, which means this looks pretty close to a done deal.

$42M. Crazy. Apparently, the Mets & Yankees both bid in the neighborhood of $30M, and were around the second & third highest bidders.

TransMonk
Nov 13 2006 04:04 PM

That's a lot a dough just to talk to the guy.

metirish
Nov 13 2006 04:06 PM

Crazy money but the Sox have a lot of money coming of the books this season and next year.

Yancy Street Gang
Nov 13 2006 04:09 PM

Wow.

My guess is he'll be terrific for two years and then fade.

metirish
Nov 13 2006 04:15 PM

Boston.com reports it's $50 freaking million,also Sox apparently offered Drew a contract.

HahnSolo
Nov 13 2006 04:20 PM

Can't imagine the Fenway faithful liking Drew's laid back attitude.

smg58
Nov 13 2006 06:10 PM

If they have to pay Matsuzaka market value beyond this year, they'll be overpaying ludicrously for a guy who's never pitched an inning in MLB. For it to possibly be worth the Sox' while, they'd have to get him to commit long-term at a steady price, and then hope that he's as good as billed and doesn't get hurt. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

Edgy DC
Nov 13 2006 08:18 PM

I could think of a better way to blow that money.

Like on three $14 million pitchers.

Rotblatt
Nov 13 2006 09:42 PM

Edgy DC wrote:
I could think of a better way to blow that money.

Like on three $14 million pitchers.


Seriously. I wanted us to bid high on him, but that's just crazy-ass talk.

metirish
Nov 13 2006 09:46 PM

I suspect teh Mets did bid high on him,just looks like the Sox blew the roof off.

Rotblatt
Nov 14 2006 07:39 AM

metirish wrote:
I suspect teh Mets did bid high on him,just looks like the Sox blew the roof off.


And it sounds like you're right. According to the Daily News, we came in second at $38M.

Edgy DC
Nov 14 2006 08:21 AM

Oh, well. We didn't win the bidding for Kaz Ishii in 2001-2002. Instead we got him in 2004-2005 for Jason Phillips.

With any luck, this guy won't cost us more than a Joe Hietpas or somethng.

Edgy DC
Nov 14 2006 10:29 AM
Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Nov 14 2006 11:42 AM

So, isn't it somewhat bizarre that teams are willing to pay more to another corporation for the rights to negotiate with a player than they'd ever pay to that player himself?

metirish
Nov 14 2006 11:32 AM

Very bizarre and even more so when the winning bid is likely higher than a few teams payrolls.

duan
Nov 14 2006 12:07 PM

Edgy DC wrote:
So, isn't it somewhat bizarre that teams are willing to pay more to another corporation for the rights to negotiate with a player than they'd ever pay to that player himself?


to some degree this happens in football all the time. Now, it's a bit different in that what happens there is the 'buying' team is essentially buying a player out of a contract that they've signed.

So, for example a couple of seasons ago Rio Ferdinand was under contract to Leeds Utd for another 3/4 years. Manchester Utd desperately wanted him and so they paid £30 million TO LEEDS for the right to negotiate with Ferdinand.

Yancy Street Gang
Nov 14 2006 12:18 PM

You had me fooled with your reference to "football." I was thinking that Rio Ferdinand was an NFL player until you got to the part about Leeds.

Nymr83
Nov 14 2006 02:02 PM

soccer should either be called "soccer" or "futbol" to stop confusing people.

edgy- it is weird but i'm sure there are a few reasns for it, one is that we're not sure how much lower their offer to the pitcher will be than if he would have been on the market and subject to offers from others team. a second factor is that the Red Sox are probably somewhat aware of the luxury tax, the money they gave to japan isnt part of that....
given the size of the bid my explanation still wouldnt cover the difference (as it might have if the bid was 10-15 million) but its at least part of it, i think we'll have to see what he signs for before we speculate even more

DocTee
Nov 14 2006 08:27 PM

Official: $51.5 million. Holy Smokes.

metirish
Nov 14 2006 08:29 PM

WOW...figure $60 million at least on a contract,would he become the most expensive pitchere ever if you add in the bid and what Boras will get him?

Rotblatt
Nov 14 2006 08:40 PM

DocTee wrote:
Official: $51.5 million. Holy Smokes.


Whaaaaa?

Holy mother of god is that a lot of money.

smg58
Nov 14 2006 09:38 PM

Insanity. Pure, unadulterated insanity. Better them than us.

How much of a discount do they think they're going to get? Or do they just not care?

metirish
Nov 14 2006 09:50 PM

A discount for what?, I doubt Boras will take that into account,it's not like he had anything to do with the bid....if I 'm a Sox fan I'm wondering if there is any money left to fill much needed other spots.

seawolf17
Nov 14 2006 10:06 PM

I wish I could read what our colleagues at SoSH are saying about this one.

metirish
Nov 14 2006 10:23 PM

They have about 10 threads on the subject,can't be bothered to read through it all but from what I am reading so far they are happy as pigs in shit.

Frayed Knot
Nov 14 2006 10:32 PM

]Official: $51.5 million.


Great googily moogily!!

Ya hafta figger that these clubs have a decent idea that they can make part of that back with increased revenue opportunities in the far east. I'm not sure what those would be since the momey from the most obvious ones; foreign TV plus merchandising, are split among all the teams. Plus it's not like the Sox can increase attendance at Fenway from a sudden influx of Japanese tourists or locals since they're sold out through about the year 2525 (if man is still alive) at this point.

I've heard a ton of hair-brained speculation on how much money the Sox can make (or that the Yanx did make from Hidecki) from getting a foothold in the Orient but very few of those actual fact thingies.

Edgy DC
Nov 14 2006 10:51 PM

Let's keep in mind also that even if he's got the ability of Walter Johnson, he's still a pitcher.

So --- using clumsy math that in no way projects what the market will look like or what the dollar will look like ten years from now --- say they determine he's a pitcher worth $20 million, and they sign him for ten years at $15 million, they get their initial investment back over that time in the difference.

If he can pitch like an all-star for ten years. But anything can happen over a decade. And so much more can happen than could have happened and could yet happen to Alex Rodriguez over his ten-year contract.

Frayed Knot
Nov 14 2006 11:03 PM

Except that the thinking is that Matsuzaka/Boras are going to want a much shorter contract - something on the order of 3-4 years complete with the 'must decline arb' clause which has become fashionable with established foreign players - so as to make him a true MLB FA by the time he hits age 29 or 30 since it's not like he'll be getting any of that $50mil (unless there's some under the table dealings going on).
Nice deal for Daisuke if he can get it but much tougher for the Sox to amortize that $50mil nut.

Frayed Knot
Nov 14 2006 11:12 PM

btw, I heard a few minutes from Orestes Destrada today (interview with M&MD on the radio). Destrada, a one-time NYY prospect and now an ESPN talkie - played for a number of years in Japan and knows their system well.
Anyway he claims that Matsuzaka will not be a FA for another two years, in part due to the fact that things like injury or rehab time spent in their mainors does NOT count toward service time and therefore he'd still be short of full FA rights even if he plays next season in Japan. That gives him additional incentive to sign whatever the Sox are offering since he's due to make considerably less ($3-4 mil) in Japan.

metirish
Nov 14 2006 11:24 PM

Orestes Destrada is a great name,not to mention the fact that I have seen his name all over the place since this news broke..never heard of the guy before.

Edgy DC
Nov 14 2006 11:57 PM

I'm in no way claiming that he'd get a ten-year deal. I'm just trying to lay out an "even if" scenario to figger out how a team can justify that payment.

metirish
Nov 15 2006 12:01 AM

Seems to me that this guy will be under an a huge spotlight,at least Ichiro was way out in Seattle,this guy might go to Boston and asked to be the ace of that staff.....and the difference between the bids for Ichiro and this guy is obviously huge...hope he makes it.

SteveJRogers
Nov 15 2006 12:07 AM

metirish wrote:
Orestes Destrada is a great name,not to mention the fact that I have seen his name all over the place since this news broke..never heard of the guy before.


From the "Why do these facts remain in my mind" department (if this is the same Destrada that we are talking about)

-A Lefty hitting catcher with at least the MFYs during the late 80's

-An original Marlin

Nymr83
Nov 15 2006 12:10 AM

Edgy DC wrote:
I'm in no way claiming that he'd get a ten-year deal. I'm just trying to lay out an "even if" scenario to figger out how a team can justify that payment.


my cynical answer is they can't unless they worked something out with the Japanese team (ala we'll bid real high but you're giving to us for X)

iramets
Nov 15 2006 06:36 AM

I heard the Orestes Destrade interview too--the man is full of shit, and those two clowns didn't ask him the right questions. He made himself out to be all-knowing as to the Japanese players who've already played in the majors. Mad Dog asked him "Were you on the money about Kaz Matsui?" and of course he answered, "Oh, sure. I felt Kaz was a great ballplayer, but just not right for New York. As you can see last year he hit .384 for Colorado, so his problem was New York, not that he's a shitty, shitty hitter and the most limited fielder in creation." I'm paraphrasing, but dont they think it would have made some sense to pin him down as to Japanese players's futures, and not to pontificate about why their pasts have turned out as they have? He was disgustingly vague as to whether Matsuzaka will be more like the Big Train than the Big Drain on Boston's Finances. I wanted to hurl my radio across the room from hearing him--usually, when I hear Mike and the Mad Dog, all I normally want to do is hurl.

HahnSolo
Nov 15 2006 08:41 AM

Second-hand rumor/speculation I heard yesterday. Don't know if there's anything to it, but it's intriguing enough to throw it out there.

What if Boras and the Red Sox have sort of a back room deal going. Boras tells the Sox that if they sign his guy (Drew) to Boras's contract terms, then he won't play hard ball on the Matsuzaka negotiations.
It would sort of explain Drew's willingness to walk away from $33 mill. guaranteed.

smg58
Nov 15 2006 08:57 AM

I doubt it. If Matsuzaka wasn't already a much more valuable commodity than Drew before yesterday, he certainly is now. Nobody has to tell that to Boras.

So speculating that they could sign Matsuzaka for $6M the next two seasons and $15M for the third, that's three years at $27M. With the bid, that's three years at $78M. Speculating again that he's worth about $15M per, the Sox would need to get over $30M from Japan over that time for this to be worth their while. Does that sound possible?

This will be fun to see pan out. From a safe distance.

Yancy Street Gang
Nov 15 2006 09:19 AM

My hunch is that the Red Sox will get two outstanding years from Matsuzaka.

Will they get their money's worth? I have no idea. There are so many intangibles involved. Even if they sell a lot of Red Sox caps and jerseys in Japan, the Royals will benefit from that as much as the Sox do.

But if he helps them win a World Series, (which would make two in one decade!) I'd bet that the Sox and their fans would figure he was worth every penny.

Iubitul
Nov 15 2006 09:31 AM

HahnSolo wrote:
Second-hand rumor/speculation I heard yesterday. Don't know if there's anything to it, but it's intriguing enough to throw it out there.

What if Boras and the Red Sox have sort of a back room deal going. Boras tells the Sox that if they sign his guy (Drew) to Boras's contract terms, then he won't play hard ball on the Matsuzaka negotiations.
It would sort of explain Drew's willingness to walk away from $33 mill. guaranteed.


This would be Boras colluding with ownership - Given his stance regarding owners, this is pretty far fetched.

This amount is just insane - no, it's obscene. That amount to just have the privilege of negotiating with the guy?

Yancy Street Gang
Nov 15 2006 09:41 AM

I'd chat with Theo Epstein for 30 days for one tenth of that amount.

iramets
Nov 15 2006 09:51 AM

You realize that he doesn't get the money, the club in Japan gets it, don't you?

Yancy Street Gang
Nov 15 2006 09:53 AM

Yes.

You realize that Theo Epstein wouldn't pay 51 cents to have a conversation with me, don't you?

Edgy DC
Nov 15 2006 09:54 AM

He would if that orange monster was behind you.

Mr. Zero
Nov 15 2006 11:38 AM

The way I am understandng the situation, if Boston and Matzuzaka can't reach a contract agreement he must stay in Japan. And then Boston is no longer responsible for the 51 mill.

So Boston blows everyone away with their outrageous offer, maybe they attempt some sort of contract negotiation. It all falls apart, no one gets Matzuzaka. But even better, it prevents the Wankees from landing him.

Sort of brilliant, though I'm thinking there must be a reason why this could or should not be allowed to happen.

Maybe this was addressed elswhere in the 11 pages of this topic. If so, sorry.

Iubitul
Nov 15 2006 11:47 AM

This is just further fodder to have Foreign free agents enter the draft, IMO. What the Red Sox posted is higher than the entire 2006 payroll for five separate teams. Something has to be done to keep the top 5 teams from cherry picking all of the top foreign talent.

Edgy DC
Nov 15 2006 11:52 AM
Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Nov 15 2006 11:55 AM

These Japanese teams have reserve rights on these players that are just as valid and invalid as our teams' reserve rights on their players. If they start raiding each other's players without compensating the foreign teams according to agreed-upon market mechanism, it would mean war between the two leagues.

Something may have to be done, but declaring war on the Japanese league isn't it.

Besides, exactly why would a Japanese star come to the United States only to be able to negotiate with the team that drafted him and paid like a first-year player?

Yancy Street Gang
Nov 15 2006 11:53 AM

Well, one thing is that if the Red Sox didn't bid in good faith but posted a crazy high bid just to keep Matsuzaka out of the Bronx, they'd create bad feelings with the guy and when he becomes a free agent one or two years from now he won't consider them, and may very well end up a Yankee.

Now, I really don't think that the Yankees figured heavily into Boston's strategy. But assuming it did, bidding in bad faith would keep him away from the Yankees for one or two years. But signing Matsuzaka will keep him away from the Yankees for considerably longer than that.

metirish
Nov 15 2006 11:59 AM

I think Boras would figured out quickly if he was being jerked around, I wonder if Selig has some sort of ultimate authority where by if it was found that Boston were not negotiating in good faith he could reopen the bidding but ban Boston from it.

Rotblatt
Nov 15 2006 12:59 PM

Before SoSH closed down their board, I read speculation that the following is likely:

1. Boras & Sox agree on years & conditions but can't agree on money.
2. Matsuzaka's team agrees to make up the difference from the Sox's bid.

For example:

Boras wants $15M over 4 years. Sox are only willing to pay $12M over 4 years. Matsuzaka's team gives $12M under the table to the Sox so that they can afford Matsuzaka.

Net result:

Matsuzaka: $15M over 4 ($60M)
His team: $39.5M ($51.5 minus $12M)
Sox: -$99.5M

Now, it's blatantly illegal, but it makes sense in terms of everyone protecting their interests. The question is, can it happen given the close scrutiny of MLB & the teams who missed out on the bid. Plus, it's not really fair to the other bidders.

I mean, we bid $38M. If the Sox get, say, $15M back from M's team, they will have essentially paid only $36.5M for the right to negotiate. Meaning that, essentially, we had the higher bid and got taken for a ride by the Sox.

Should be interesting to see what happens . . .

Iubitul
Nov 15 2006 01:29 PM

Edgy DC wrote:
These Japanese teams have reserve rights on these players that are just as valid and invalid as our teams' reserve rights on their players. If they start raiding each other's players without compensating the foreign teams according to agreed-upon market mechanism, it would mean war between the two leagues.

Something may have to be done, but declaring war on the Japanese league isn't it.

Besides, exactly why would a Japanese star come to the United States only to be able to negotiate with the team that drafted him and paid like a first-year player?


I'm not talking about declaring war on the Japanese league.

I just don't like this bidding process. There is too much room for shenanigans with private bids. Furthermore, MLB teams should not be able to bid at all on these players while they are property of their Japanese team. Once a player has become a free agent, he should be slotted into the draft.

If anyone has a better method to keep these players from filling only a few select teams, I'm all ears.

I

Edgy DC
Nov 15 2006 01:34 PM

Increase the visitors share of both stadium revenues and broadcast revenues.

Open up expansion and team movement to allow teams to compete for populated areas, thus negating the advantage of teams already situated there.

Two perfectly valid market-driven ways to balance the revenue disparity without doing it on the backs of players.

Iubitul
Nov 15 2006 01:46 PM

Actually, I think they are doing it on our backs more than the players' backs...

Mr. Zero
Nov 15 2006 01:55 PM

]Well, one thing is that if the Red Sox didn't bid in good faith but posted a crazy high bid just to keep Matsuzaka out of the Bronx, they'd create bad feelings with the guy and when he becomes a free agent one or two years from now he won't consider them, and may very well end up a Yankee.

Now, I really don't think that the Yankees figured heavily into Boston's strategy. But assuming it did, bidding in bad faith would keep him away from the Yankees for one or two years. But signing Matsuzaka will keep him away from the Yankees for considerably longer than that.


Agreed. Though I keep thinking:

Cost of signing Matsuzaka: $110 million.

Cost of keeping him out of the hands of others: $0

Centerfield
Nov 15 2006 03:35 PM

SteveJRogers wrote:
="metirish"]Orestes Destrada is a great name,not to mention the fact that I have seen his name all over the place since this news broke..never heard of the guy before.


From the "Why do these facts remain in my mind" department (if this is the same Destrada that we are talking about)

-A Lefty hitting catcher with at least the MFYs during the late 80's

-An original Marlin


Orestes Destrade's baseball card was in every pack I purchased as a child.

That may not be true, but it seemed like it.

Iubitul
Nov 15 2006 06:46 PM

Centerfield wrote:
="SteveJRogers"]
="metirish"]Orestes Destrada is a great name,not to mention the fact that I have seen his name all over the place since this news broke..never heard of the guy before.


From the "Why do these facts remain in my mind" department (if this is the same Destrada that we are talking about)

-A Lefty hitting catcher with at least the MFYs during the late 80's

-An original Marlin


Orestes Destrade's baseball card was in every pack I purchased as a child.

That may not be true, but it seemed like it.


just to show how old I am, it seemed like I got Tito Fuentes in every pack I opened as a kid.

patona314
Nov 15 2006 07:33 PM

Mr. Zero wrote:
The way I am understandng the situation, if Boston and Matzuzaka can't reach a contract agreement he must stay in Japan. And then Boston is no longer responsible for the 51 mill.

So Boston blows everyone away with their outrageous offer, maybe they attempt some sort of contract negotiation. It all falls apart, no one gets Matzuzaka. But even better, it prevents the Wankees from landing him.

Sort of brilliant, though I'm thinking there must be a reason why this could or should not be allowed to happen.

Maybe this was addressed elswhere in the 11 pages of this topic. If so, sorry.


brilliant move by the bosox. if boras asks for too much... back to japan he goes and the bosox keep $51M. next year there is no bidding process . he's a pure free agent. thanks too the hype that went on this year. his price tag will be astromical. the yankmees will get him and pay a price that will even hurt them financially. That scenario would be a beautiful sight... but...

what if boras knows what the bosox are up to (which i hope he does).... he signs him to a contract similar to the one mussina is about to sign (2yrs $23M) and matzusaka walks at the ripe old age of 28.

either way, yankees lose

Nymr83
Nov 15 2006 10:14 PM

i can't see how the red Sox could let him sign for only 2 years after paying 51 million, you'd think that at that rate they've got 7 years in mind

duan
Nov 16 2006 05:10 AM

Nymr83 wrote:
soccer should either be called "soccer" or "futbol" to stop confusing people.


Leaving aside that 'real football' came way earlier,

If there's one game that's played primarily with the feet and one primarily with the hands, which do you think should be called football.

Nymr83
Nov 16 2006 07:24 AM



call your shit anything you want in your country, here in america THIS is football.

Edgy DC
Nov 16 2006 07:48 AM
Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Nov 16 2006 08:45 AM

You tell him, John Wayne.

How about, if there's any room for ambiguity --- such as comparing team sports on an international scale like we're doing here --- we use "American Football"?

I don't know how to make the standards based on "we say here" and "you say there" when where we are is a virtual place anyhow, with people posting from here and there.

Willets Point
Nov 16 2006 08:30 AM

Historically, all games played on foot were called football as opposed to more aristocratic games which were played on horseback, so the term has nothing to do with playing with one's feet. Different countries/cultures have codified different rules of football - association football, American football, Gaelic football, Australian-rules football, Canadian football, rugby - but they're all "football."

soupcan
Nov 16 2006 09:22 AM

Thanks Dusty!

Yancy Street Gang
Nov 16 2006 09:29 AM

The name "football" seems to be a better fit for the game that we Americans call soccer. Kicking plays a much bigger role than in American football.

Tackleball would probably be more appropriate for the NFL game. It's probably the thing that's most unique about the game. (Yardball would be another possibility.) When you think of it, other games are named after the thing that they share with the fewest other sports: bases, baskets, volleys, dodging.


Also, I've heard small kids get confused about names of sports. Kids sometimes talk about playing "tennisball" or "soccerball."

seawolf17
Nov 16 2006 11:33 AM

]ST. PETERSBURG, Fla. -- The Tampa Bay Devil Rays won the negotiating rights to Japanese star third baseman Akinori Iwamura on Wednesday, submitting a winning bid of about $4.5 million for the power hitter.

On Tuesday, the Boston Red Sox paid $51.1 million for the rights to talk to Japanese star pitcher Daisuke Matsuzaka.

The Devil Rays have 30 days to finalize a contract with Iwamura. If he is not signed by Dec. 15, Tampa Bay gets its money back and Iwamura returns to play in Japan.

Iwamura, 27, was a five-time All-Star in eight seasons with the Yakult Swallows. A left-handed hitter, he batted .311 with 32 homers and 77 RBI in 145 games last season.

Iwamura was Japan's starting third baseball in the World Baseball Classic last spring. He was a six-time Gold Glove winner.

Iwamura hit 188 homers with 570 RBI in eight seasons with Yakult. He hit at least 30 home runs in each of the past three years and set a Swallows record for most homers by a Japanese native with 44 in 2004.

So who gets more out of their investment? Nice move by the Devil Rays.

metirish
Nov 16 2006 11:37 AM

I had to look twice, thought at first $4.5M was $45 million.....isn't there another Japanese pitcher going up for bid soon...plays for Valentines team I think.

Yancy Street Gang
Nov 16 2006 11:39 AM

I hope he does well for them. It's nice that I have no reason to root against him; if he becomes an All-Star for the Devil Rays it will have no impact on the Mets at all.

And, even though it's a longshot, if it makes the AL East more competitive, all the better.

Elster88
Nov 25 2006 12:39 PM

]Daisuke (pronounced Dice-K)


???

Edgy DC
Nov 28 2006 10:08 AM

We've discussed that.

We're halfway through the negotiating period now and Boston and Matsuzaka have no deal. You wonder if Scott Boras doesn't have some mixed interests here.

metirish
Nov 28 2006 11:27 AM

Boston have made an offer that they call 'fair and comprehensive',what's interesting is this bit from the ESPN article.....

]

If the Red Sox don't sign Matsuzaka, his rights returns to the Lions. To avoid that, Seibu could reduce the bid to help the sides reach a deal.

metirish
Nov 29 2006 09:44 AM

]

BOSTON -- The Boston Red Sox cannot reduce their $51.1 million bid for Daisuke Matsuzaka in order to sign him, even if his Japanese team agrees to take less, baseball officials said Tuesday.

"There are no side deals in the situation," said Jimmie Lee Solomon, executive vice president of baseball operations in the commissioner's office. "Everybody's been assured that's not allowed, and everybody's been made aware of the rules." Red Sox president Larry Lucchino, in Tokyo to handle the negotiations, said the team has made a formal offer to Matsuzaka and agent Scott Boras that Lucchino called "fair" and "comprehensive." According to the Hartford Courant, it was believed to be in the $7-million to $8-million a year range, with Boras reportedly seeking $15 million.

Sandgnat
Dec 08 2006 10:14 AM

Starting to seem like the Red Sox never really intended to sign this guy and just ridiculously overbid in the posting process to ensure he didn't go somewhere else (NYY).

Nymr83
Dec 08 2006 10:22 AM

all the Japanese teams are owned by corporations right? couldn't whoever owns the Seibu Lions, if they wanted to give him a kickback, just "hire" him to make a commercial or billboard advertsing their product?

metirish
Dec 08 2006 10:25 AM

Nymr83 wrote:
all the Japanese teams are owned by corporations right? couldn't whoever owns the Seibu Lions, if they wanted to give him a kickback, just "hire" him to make a commercial or billboard advertsing their product?


Interesting article....


]

Talk of Misconduct Is Swirling Around Red Sox


By MURRAY CHASS
Published: December 8, 2006
The Boston Red Sox might think of the Yankees as the Evil Empire, but other people in baseball now seem to view the Red Sox as a team that feels it can operate outside the rules.

Schedule/Results Individual Stats | Team Roster | History Discuss the Mets According to executives of several clubs, the Red Sox were a hot topic of private conversation at the general managers’ meeting last month and at the winter meetings this week. Several officials who work for Major League Baseball said there appeared to be good reason for the talk. Many of those interviewed did not want to be quoted by name because of what they viewed as the sensitivity of talking critically about another team’s conduct.



Exhibit A for the disgruntled is Boston’s signing of J. D. Drew, who walked away from the final three years of his contract with the Los Angeles Dodgers, a move that his agent, Scott Boras, said was aboveboard and precipitated by the marketplace. The signing of Drew could lead to an investigation by the commissioner’s office into possible tampering by the Red Sox; one baseball official said the commissioner’s office would vigorously investigate the matter if it received a complaint, but added that no complaint has been forthcoming.

One general manager said that many people at the general managers’ meeting, after hearing that Drew would sign with Boston, urged the Dodgers to file a tampering charge.

“We haven’t reached a decision yet,” Ned Colletti, the Dodgers’ general manager, said by telephone yesterday before leaving the winter meetings in Orlando, Fla.

Others described Colletti as angry about the Drew development and said that relations between Colletti and Theo Epstein, Boston’s general manager, had become strained to the point where Colletti wasn’t returning Epstein’s telephone calls.

Epstein denied tampering with Drew, whom he tried unsuccessfully to sign two years ago and then signed earlier this week to a five-year, $70 million contract.

“That’s not true,” Epstein said by telephone yesterday. “There’s nothing to that.”

Epstein said he had no conversations with Boras before Drew became a free agent. That occurred when Drew opted out of his Dodgers contract Nov. 10. Skeptics suspect that the Red Sox let Drew know that if he exercised his right to leave the Dodgers, he could get a more lucrative contract from them.

An executive of one club said the Dodgers’ owner, Frank McCourt, was certain tampering had occurred. McCourt’s office said he was traveling yesterday and was not available to comment.

Two years ago, Drew signed a five-year, $55 million contract with the Dodgers with a clause that allowed him to terminate the deal after two years.

At various times last season, Drew displayed what appeared to be positive feelings about playing in Los Angeles, and uniformed members of the Dodgers told people in the front office that Drew had told them he intended to stay with the team.

Six days before the end of the season, Drew told Bill Plunkett of The Orange County Register that he was happy in Los Angeles and had not thought about the opt-out clause. He said he did not plan to use it.

“At some point,” he remarked, “you make those commitments and you stick to them.”

Even closer to the opt-out deadline, several days before it, Drew told Rich Donnelly, the Dodgers’ third-base coach, how much he was looking forward to the 2007 season and talked about what the Dodgers needed to do for the season, saying he couldn’t wait for it to arrive, according to a baseball executive.

A few days later he left the Dodgers, walking away from a guaranteed $33 million. Drew is a talented but fragile player who has been on the disabled list seven times in his eight-year career and has never played as many as 110 games two years in a row.

“I don’t think he’s the kind of player who would walk away from $33 million without some idea of what was out there,” a baseball official said.

Boras said Drew walked away from the contract because he had told him what the market was for a player of his caliber.

“I did my due diligence,” Boras said in a telephone interview. “There were a number of teams that need a 3, 4 or 5 hitter, and J. D. was the only center fielder. I went to the Dodgers a week before the opt-out date and had lunch with Colletti. I had not yet met with J. D. I said if you want to talk about it, we are prepared to talk because J. D. has enjoyed his time in L. A.”

The Dodgers, though, were not prepared to extend the current deal, so Drew decided to become a free agent, Boras said.

“This is nothing other than a standard, customary free-agency evaluation for me,” Boras said. “I thought it was a very easy decision.”

Boras said he had no discussion about Drew with the Red Sox before Nov. 10. “We adhere to the rules,” he added. But others remain skeptical. Club executives and baseball officials are also watching the Red Sox negotiations with Boras for Daisuke Matsuzaka, the Japanese pitcher, for whom Boston bid $51.1 million just for the right to talk to him.

They have observed as Larry Lucchino, the Red Sox chief executive, recently went to Japan to meet with Matsuzaka’s team, the Seibu Lions, for the stated purpose of establishing a working agreement between the teams. They have read with interest Boras’s view that there is no rule barring the Lions from sharing part of the posting fee with the player, thus making it easier for the Red Sox to sign him for less of their own money.

“No one can enter into an agreement that would circumvent the posting process,” said Lou Melendez, major league baseball’s vice president for international operations. “What I read would seem to be a way of getting around the posting process. The commissioner’s office would investigate. If you speak to the Japanese commissioner’s office, which we have, any kind of arrangement, this or any other, would not be allowed.”

The commissioner’s office wouldn’t allow it for another reason: it would be a way for the Red Sox to try to avoid paying the luxury tax, since giving Matsuzaka a smaller contract would diminish the overall Boston payroll.



Several executives of other teams have also cited the four-year-old Kevin Millar case, in which the Red Sox signed Millar after the Florida Marlins sold him to a Japanese team. Contrary to accepted practice, the Red Sox then won the right to have Millar play for them, with Millar helping their cause by saying he had changed his mind about playing in Japan. The next year, he helped Boston win the World Series.

That ended the famous Red Sox curse, but now the team seems to be the subject of resentment.

sharpie
Dec 08 2006 10:25 AM

I think the Red Sox are just being smart here. Boras has no leverage other than letting him go back to Japan for a year, which he doesn't want to have happen.

Frayed Knot
Dec 08 2006 10:34 AM

RE: the Drew case:
Tampering - it seems to me - would have to be one of the more difficult things to prove.

Yancy Street Gang
Dec 08 2006 10:38 AM

I agree. The Boras and Drew and Epstein's stories all sound like they could be perfectly legitimate. Doesn't mean they're not guilty, but their stories don't seem fishy.

What would be the penalty for tampering anyway? Fines? Or could Selig void the Boston contract and reinstate the LA contract?

Frayed Knot
Dec 08 2006 10:43 AM
Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Dec 08 2006 10:45 AM

]What would be the penalty for tampering anyway?
Fines? Or could Selig void the Boston contract and reinstate the LA contract?


Selig would have the power to do either - although the further it gets away, time-wise, from the Boston signing the more difficult it would be to negate the new contract and then return him to LA (would they even want him?) or make Drew a FA again as teams would have their rosters more filled out reducing the market for Drew, etc.

metirish
Dec 08 2006 10:44 AM

I imagine if Selig tried to void a contract he'd have the players union filing all sorts of lawsuits.

Nymr83
Dec 08 2006 10:45 AM

i doubt he could reinstate the LA contract, he could probably void the BOS one, though i doubt he'd have the balls to do it.
is "tanpering" an "offense" that the player would get fined for at all or is it only the tampering club that suffers?
Personally I think if there was tampering the club and the agent should be fined.

Johnny Dickshot
Dec 08 2006 10:51 AM

I think the Drew thing is probably above-board and and shouldn't come as a surprise given Drew's history as a Boras "test case."

What's interesting to me is the possibility that the "out" was included with a jump to the Red Sox in mind.

Nymr83
Dec 08 2006 11:02 AM

given Drew's alleged statements leading up to it and given my low opinion of Boras (when i picture Boras i picture a lawyer who encourages his clients to take the stand and commit perjury) I am definetaly suspicious. I don't think anything will be proved, but the Dodgers should file a grievance just to make a point.

Edgy DC
Dec 08 2006 11:02 AM

I think it's established that J.D. Drew trusts Scott Boras when he says the market projects for you to make more money by walking.

It's not like he walked out on the Phils because of that great under-the-table St Paul Saints offer that he had.

smg58
Dec 08 2006 01:08 PM

Look, the Dodgers gave Drew the opportunity to walk, he took it and now they're mad. Boras considered the possibility that the market would be much better in two years, and the Dodgers failed to think so far ahead. I'm sure Boras tried to get a similar clause in Beltran's contract -- he got one for A-Rod, so I'd assume he considers it a standard thing to bargain over with his most valued clients. Boras didn't need specific information from Theo Epstein to know that Drew could get a better deal this year. Anybody (well, the Dodgers front office evidently excluded) could see the way the market was going, which I guess is equivalent to having "some idea what was out there." Unless he has some specific evidence to cite, and the article presents absolutely nothing, Colletti should shut up and reserve his finger-pointing for the mirror.

OlerudOwned
Dec 08 2006 01:39 PM

Hey, if Boston gets slammed for "circumvent the posting process" in the Matsuzaka deal, do his rights go to the team with the #2 bid?

Because, y'know...

metirish
Dec 08 2006 01:40 PM

Did't Paul DePodesta sign Drew?

sharpie
Dec 08 2006 01:48 PM

]Hey, if Boston gets slammed for "circumvent the posting process" in the Matsuzaka deal, do his rights go to the team with the #2 bid?

Because, y'know...



No, he goes back to Japan. That is why Boras has no leverage.

Yancy Street Gang
Dec 08 2006 01:54 PM

Well, he goes back to Japan if the Red Sox can't sign him to a deal.

But if it's determined that the Red Sox circumvented the process in some way, then I suppose it's possible that the rights might go to the Mets. It would probably be at the discretion of Selig and the Japanese commissioner (or whoever's in charge over there).

Not likely to happen, but it's probably remotely possible.

metirish
Dec 08 2006 01:59 PM

If Colletti did file a grievance I wonder if MLB would halt all negotiations until they finished an investigation which might take a while,maybe even passed the deadline...

Rotblatt
Dec 08 2006 02:13 PM

Does Seibu have any recourse in this? They stand to lose the most if Matsuzaka doesn't sign, and Boras convinces him to take some time off next year.

smg58
Dec 08 2006 02:44 PM
Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Dec 08 2006 02:47 PM

metirish wrote:
Did't Paul DePodesta sign Drew?


Yes, I remembered that after I posted. In fact I think the unpopularity of the Drew deal was one of the factors in DePodesta getting fired. And Drew decides the deal wasn't enough and goes elsewhere. Baseball can be funny sometimes.

Which makes you wonder why Colletti cares so much. You would think he'd look on it as an opportunity to increase his stamp on the team, free of somebody else's controversial signing.

Johnny Dickshot
Dec 08 2006 02:46 PM

I think its cuz Drew gave him the impression he'd stick around then skipped town like a wuss.

Yancy Street Gang
Dec 10 2006 03:39 PM

="MLB.com"]
Report: Matsuzaka talks stalled
12/10/2006 2:24 PM ET
MLB.com

Negotiations on a contract between the Red Sox and Daisuke Matsuzaka have broken down, a source told the Boston Herald late Saturday.
The Red Sox have until midnight Thursday to sign the Japanese ace right-hander. But according to the paper, unless there is an 11th hour change of course, Matsuzaka would not be signing with Boston.

The Red Sox won the rights to negotiate with Matsuzaka by bidding $51.1 million to the Seibu Lions. Matsuzaka would return to the Lions and the Japanese club would not receive any money if the 26-year-old does not sign with the Red Sox.

According to the paper, Boston's initial offer was for between $7 million to $8 million per season for a four- to six-year contract, while Matsuzaka's agent, Scott Boras, is believed to be seeking $15 million a year.

smg58
Dec 10 2006 06:42 PM

If Boston thinks they could bid $51M for negotiating rights and then offer him $7M per year even beyond the two years he's still under contract in Seibu, either they were bidding just to keep the Yankees from getting him or they're certifiable.

A Boy Named Seo
Dec 10 2006 06:59 PM

I don't know, I don't think they're so crazy. Sure they want to sign him, but the Sox are in pretty good position. They have no competition driving up the price, and as badly as they want him, I don't see any way Boras happily takes nothing and watches Matsuzaka go back to Japan. Maybe 5 years/$55 mils gets it done.

metirish
Dec 10 2006 07:06 PM

If they did this just to stop the yankees form winning the bidding rights then I am fucking mad as hell,Omar could right be wrapping things up with Boras...still I don't think Boston are acting in bad faith.

Edgy DC
Dec 10 2006 07:16 PM

Omar has nobody to blame but himself if he went in without a workable alternaitve plan.

If he doesn't sign with Boston, that makes a potential World Series opponent weaker, and I'm fine wit' that.

They could burn the Yankees a second time if he doesn't sign by signing Roger Clemens.

metirish
Dec 10 2006 07:19 PM

Edgy DC wrote:
Omar has nobody to blame but himself if he went in without a workable alternaitve plan.

If he doesn't sign with Boston, that makes a potential World Series opponent weaker, and I'm fine wit' that.

They could burn the Yankees a second time if he doesn't sign by signing Roger Clemens.


All vert true,I need to look on the bright side..

Frayed Knot
Dec 10 2006 09:03 PM

I wonder if Boras was totally up front w/Matsuzaka about what he c/should expect from a contract on this side of the Pacific, or whether he sold him on the idea that a deal for north of $10mil/yr was a lock once the agent starting spinning his charm on whatever hapless GM won the bid.
Be interesting to see if Dice-K really wants to avoid returning to Japan to the point where he either instructs Boas to take the best deal or fires his ass in favor of someone who'll be willing to make a deal.

metirish
Dec 10 2006 09:16 PM

I think if it came to firing Boras then Boras would make the deal, his ego probably would demand it.

Johnny Dickshot
Dec 10 2006 10:34 PM

Who couldn't see the posting system turning into a clusterfuck like this.

I'm telling yas: There just has to be some kind of agreement to allow for the orderly movement of athletes between leagues. I suppose NPB could start by giving their players better rights, or MLB could hammer out some type of minorleaguy working agreement with NPB.

Johnny Dickshot
Dec 11 2006 10:24 AM

BTW, you have to figure if the Red Sox cannot come to a deal with matsusaka they've got plenty of money to throw at the next LH guy ... Zito.

Looking to me more and more like the Mets might have to make that Jason Jennings trade or something.

metirish
Dec 11 2006 01:16 PM

Curt Schilling going the extra mile and learning Japanese,as is pitching coach John Farrell,Francona isn't though...

]

For me, I can pat a guy on the back after eight good innings in any language,” he said. “That won’t be difficult

Willets Point
Dec 11 2006 01:43 PM

Is this shit not settled yet?

metirish
Dec 11 2006 01:48 PM

No it's not,Boras thinks he's worth $15 million a year while the Sox think he's worth a mere $8 million a year.

smg58
Dec 11 2006 01:50 PM

It won't be settled until Thursday close to midnight.

soupcan
Dec 11 2006 02:17 PM

Don't understimate the Japanese club's interest in getting this done. And I'm thinking the Red Sox aren't.

Could the Red Sox be surreptitiously trying to persuade them into throwing some of the $51 mil at the pitcher in order to enrich his deal with Boston knowing that if they don't they might be left holding a big fat bag of $0?

Yancy Street Gang
Dec 11 2006 02:42 PM

smg58 wrote:
It won't be settled until Thursday close to midnight.


I read somewhere that the practical deadline, as opposed to the actual deadline, is closer to Tuesday, because of the need to schedule a physical and get the results.

duan
Dec 11 2006 04:30 PM

here's the thing; there was an argument SOMEWHERE that Boras could try to buy Matsuka out of his contract for $XX million if this negotiation fails and then argue that he's a free agent and go from there.

the whole process is a mess; I think as much because of the sealed bid/contract element being separate.

metirish
Dec 11 2006 04:40 PM

duan wrote:
here's the thing; there was an argument SOMEWHERE that Boras could try to buy Matsuka out of his contract for $XX million if this negotiation fails and then argue that he's a free agent and go from there.

the whole process is a mess; I think as much because of the sealed bid/contract element being separate.


WOW,to the high court we will go....now that would be a mess...

Nymr83
Dec 11 2006 04:50 PM

Hopefully this will all get cleaned up. The problem is that from Boston's point of view they paid for exclusive rights, which means they shouldn't have to pay the guy like a free agent, because he isn't a free agent. Boras seems to think he's entitled to free agent money, Seibu got $51 million out this, shouldn't he get something too?

This system benefits Japanese teams at the expense of both Japanese players looking to come to America (who have no bargaining power) AND American teams who, at least in this case, could end up paying more in posting fee + contract than they would have with a regular free agent deal.

duan
Dec 11 2006 07:33 PM

Nymr83 wrote:
Hopefully this will all get cleaned up. The problem is that from Boston's point of view they paid for exclusive rights, which means they shouldn't have to pay the guy like a free agent, because he isn't a free agent. Boras seems to think he's entitled to free agent money, Seibu got $51 million out this, shouldn't he get something too?

This system benefits Japanese teams at the expense of both Japanese players looking to come to America (who have no bargaining power) AND American teams who, at least in this case, could end up paying more in posting fee + contract than they would have with a regular free agent deal.


Well I think it's more like Boras is saying "the guy is a free agent in 2 years time, at that point, he can get a deal for (lets say going by today's market) $ 20 million per year. You (the boston red sox) are paying 51 million FOR the right to sign him NOW, the right to be the only people to negotiate, and the right to lock him up.

Whereas, the red sox are thinking "well, our total cost of this acquisition should be (about) $85 million over 5 years (or Barry Zito money). That means that we can only pay him $35 million over 5 years."

The big issue for the Red Sox is that with the size of the posting fee, it takes too many years to bring the cost of acquisition down to a level where they can pay the player (broadly) for his worth. Don't forget, Matsuka's already been a top level baseball player for 7 years, why should he have to wait ANOTHER 5 years to get paid 'fair market value'. That's probably about 75% of TOP level player's career. (Moderate players' major league careers are A LOT shorter).

It has to be proven to Matsuka, that he's better off signing with the RedSox now, then with someone else in 2 years time. When the difference in salaries could possibly be made up in less then ONE YEAR it's hard to see how the ballparks the redsox are talking make sense.

[eg Matsuka makes 3 million in 2007 & 2008 (totalling 6 million) red sox offer is 8 million/5 (making total cost 90 million over 5 years), yet in the difference by end of '08 is only 10 million. If he signs a contract paying $18 million per year in 09, he's already earned as much by end of 09 as with the former, and by the end of 11 he's earned and extra $20 million.

If I'm Matsuka; I'm saying to the red sox if you want me cheap you only get me for 2-3 years. Otherwise you pay 15-18

Nymr83
Dec 11 2006 07:55 PM

well thats certainly true, if you're Boras you are being perfectly reasonable in demanding "market value" for those years after he would be a free agent anyway. If we're talking about a 7 year deal, which considering the whopping size of the fee i'd assume we are, you'd need 5 years of market rate following 2 years of a slight bit more than he'd make staying in Japan... altogether 13-15 a year sounds about right.

I think Boston might have some buyer's remorse, assuming this wasn't all a "keep him away from N.Y. ploy" in the first place, and unlike most baseball buyers they have an easy out.

I think we all agree the posting system needs to change. My idea for a (simple) change would be to allow the Japanese teams to make a player available to negotiate with everyone, but instead of a posting fee they'd get a % of the contract (agreed upon between them and the player/agent before they posted him) for the number of years that he would have still been under control.

smg58
Dec 11 2006 09:27 PM

Nymr83 wrote:
I think we all agree the posting system needs to change. My idea for a (simple) change would be to allow the Japanese teams to make a player available to negotiate with everyone, but instead of a posting fee they'd get a % of the contract (agreed upon between them and the player/agent before they posted him) for the number of years that he would have still been under control.


I like that idea. Even a percentage of the full contract would make more sense that the current situation. Seibu probably wouldn't come away with $51M, but they'd be assured of not getting nothing.

Nymr83
Dec 12 2006 12:02 AM

More importantly, nobody can negotiate in bad faith. Sure Seibu wouldn't get $51 million but I'd have to think that after this fiasco thats not happening again anyway. MLB, if Selig has any balls/common sense whatsoever, will sit down and hammer out a better agreement. Will the Japanese league work something better out or will we end up with a situation where Japanese players can't come here until actual free agency? Would MLB disregard Japanese rules altogether if it came to that? Lots of questions, no answers.

cleonjones11
Dec 12 2006 12:07 AM

How about no more Japanese players in MLB...

Nymr83
Dec 12 2006 12:11 AM

cleonjones11 wrote:
How about no more Japanese players in MLB...


How about no more cleonjones11 posts on the CPF...

soupcan
Dec 12 2006 09:16 AM

="Nymr83"]How about no more cleonjones11 posts on the CPF...


I'll second that emotion.





Today's New York Times...


December 12, 2006
As Japanese Pitcher Waits, Wheeling Outpaces Dealing
By JACK CURRY



Jae C. Hong/Associated Press

The Japanese pitcher Daisuke Matsuzaka, right, with his agent, Scott Boras, who has until Thursday to strike a deal with the Red Sox.



The Daisuke Matsuzaka saga took another twist on Monday night when two of the Boston Red Sox's chief executives flew from Boston to southern California to meet face to face with the pitcher and Scott Boras, his agent, in an attempt to try and finally reach an agreement on a contract.

In a calculated, aggressive effort, the Red Sox invaded Boras's backyard because they said Boras was not being responsive during their discussions. The Red Sox posted a bid of $51.1 million to win the right to negotiate with Matsuzaka and they have until Thursday at midnight to complete a deal.

"I think it's also fair to say that we're on Scott Boras's doorstep because he hasn't negotiated with us thus far," John Henry, the team's principal owner, said. "We're taking the fight directly to him, a fight to try and have a negotiation here."

General Manager Theo Epstein, who traveled with President Larry Lucchino on Henry's private plane, said they made the cross country trip to present an "improved contract offer of considerable magnitude." Epstein said the Red Sox were increasing their offer, despite the fact that Boras has not made a counter to their initial proposal. The two sides will meet on Tuesday.

"We simply got on the plane and flew to southern California and called Scott when we landed," Epstein said. "We told him we were here to meet and we'd like to meet directly with him and Mr. Matsuzaka as soon as possible."

Although the 30-day deadline for an agreement ends on Thursday, Epstein said it is narrower because the Red Sox do not finalize contracts unless a player has passed a physical. Since the Red Sox want Matsuzaka to be examined in Boston, Epstein suggested that the deadline is actually Wednesday.

"We also have the plane available Wednesday morning," Epstein said. "We hope to be flying back to Boston with Mr. Matsuzaka and Mr. Boras on the plane in order for us to complete a physical and get a deal done before the window lapses."

Before Epstein and Lucchino landed, Boras held a news conference at his office in Newport Beach, Calif. in which he said Matsuzaka is "worth well in excess of $100 million." When Boras mentioned that figure, he was not including the $51.1 million posting fee. Epstein said Boras's amount was "in the right ball park for the commitment of the club," but, of course, he was including the posting fee.

Boras believes that Matsuzaka, 26, who was the Most Valuable Player of the inaugural World Baseball Classic, should be paid as much as $15 million a year. After paying such a lucrative posting fee, the Red Sox believe Matsuzaka cannot expect to be paid like an unrestricted free agent.

The two sides strenuously disagree about the $51.1 million the Red Sox spent to speak with Matsuzaka. Boras does not feel that should factor into what Matsuzaka earns. The agent has called the system flawed and has questioned why the Seibu Lions, Matsuzaka's former team, should potentially benefit so much more than his client.

"The posting fee represents the problem," Boras told reporters. "It's historic, it's new. it's something that's never been done. How do you reflect value in a posting fee in an appropriate contract for a player? In the American system, no player is asked to reduce their salaries for luxury tax purposes."

The Red Sox have remained mostly mum since learning they had posted the highest bid for Matsuzaka last month, but exasperated team officials spoke at length during a conference call that started at 12:50 A.M. (EST). Even in the round-the-clock passion that loyalists have for the Red Sox, the starting time was pretty late.

Still, the Red Sox had some points they wanted to emphasize regarding Matsuzaka and Boras. Epstein called Matsuzaka "a national treasure," the same phrase Boras had used to describe the pitcher a few hours earlier, and gushed about how the best thing for baseball would be if Matsuzaka signs with Boston.

While Epstein acknowledged that it is normally not a shrewd decision to make a second offer when the other party has not responded to the first offer, he said the Red Sox "want to demonstrate to Matsuzaka and fans of Japanese baseball around the world just how important this is to us."

When Esptein was asked if Boras was operating in good faith with Boston, he sidestepped the question by saying Matsuzaka "is certainly operating in good faith." Epstein added, "Again, in the end, it's the player's decision on whether he wants to sign."

Boras, who is baseball's most powerful agent, has often garnered handsome contracts for players by playing offers against each another. He cannot do that in this situation because the Red Sox have exclusive rights to Matsuzaka. What Boras can do is drag out the process and frustrate the Red Sox, perhaps hoping that they will flinch.

If the two sides do not agree on a contract, the Lions would not receive a dime of the $51.1 million and Matsuzaka would have to return to Japan for 2007. Matsuzaka, who had told Boras he wants to pitch in the United States next year, would have to wait at least another year before getting the chance again.

"If there is no deal, then all bets are off," said Lou Melendez, the vice president of international operations for Major League Baseball. "They'd have to post him again next year because he can't be a free agent for two more years."

Boras said Matsuzaka would make the decision about his future on his own.

"One thing is clear, D-Mat will some day be a major league player," Boras said. "We have further negotiating to do. The deadline's not here in five minutes. The parties do understand what the player's value is in the free agent system."

Some Japanese reporters said it would be awkward for Matsuzaka if he had to return to Japan. Matsuzaka has already said good-bye to his country and the financially-strapped Lions were expecting a significant sum after posting him.

"Nobody in Japan is expecting him to come back because the negotiations broke down," said Yasuko Yanagita, a reporter for the Hochi Shimbun. "I don't think this is only for the Japanese culture. But, in Japan, someone asking for 'Money, money, money,' does not leave a good impression."

As both sides have tried to concoct ways to make the deal more favorable for them, there has been speculation that Boras could let the deadline pass so that the Red Sox no longer hold negotiating rights and then attempt to buy out Matsuzaka's free agency.

Once the Lions knew they were not getting $51.1 million, they might be willing to take half of that from Boras. Boras could then market Matsuzaka as a free agent to every team and the pitcher would stand to make much more than he would get from the Red Sox right now. But Melendez said that is not an option.

"The Commissioner's office would not recognize that free agency and the Japanese commissioner's office is in agreement with us," Melendez said.


Now that Epstein and Lucchino have visited Boras's neighborhood, they are pushing to sign a pitcher who will drastically improve their team. The Red Sox have a plane that is leaving southern California on Wednesday. They are hoping Matsuzaka will be on it, hoping their own draining journey was worth it.

Edgy DC
Dec 12 2006 09:24 AM

Glad it's not my team in this pickle.

metirish
Dec 12 2006 11:07 AM

Boras has a way with words....

]

"In Japan, he's known as the national treasure," Boras told some three dozen media representatives -- nearly all representing Japanese outlets. "Here, he will be known as Fort Knox."



Great name to add pressure to D-Mat.

Yancy Street Gang
Dec 12 2006 11:08 AM

If I was a ballplayer I don't think I'd want him as my agent.

Edgy DC
Dec 12 2006 11:18 AM

I think he's done more than fine by most of his players.

Sure, there are now two towns that hate J.D. Drew for walking away from them, but come on, how bad can it be to be hated by Dodger fans?

Yancy Street Gang
Dec 12 2006 11:22 AM

Oh, I'm sure he has.

But I'd be okay getting only $105 million instead of $110 million and having an agent who cares more about what I want than about chasing the last dollar. (If in fact that's how Boras operates. That's the conventional wisdom on him but we can't be sure it's accurate.)

Centerfield
Dec 12 2006 11:35 AM

Yancy, you're not seeing the big picture. $105 million is only like $60 million or so after taxes.

metsmarathon
Dec 12 2006 11:35 AM

but then, if that were the case, you wouldn't have signed him to be your agent.

if you were all about the dollar, then you would.

metirish
Dec 12 2006 11:37 AM

metsmarathon wrote:
but then, if that were the case, you wouldn't have signed him to be your agent.

if you were all about the dollar, then you would.


Zito...

Yancy Street Gang
Dec 12 2006 11:38 AM

metsmarathon wrote:
but then, if that were the case, you wouldn't have signed him to be your agent.

if you were all about the dollar, then you would.


That's what I originally said. If I were a ballplayer, I wouldn't choose him to be my agent.

Edgy DC
Dec 12 2006 11:41 AM

I don't htink wanting your agent to bring home every dollar you're entitled to necessarily makes you "all about the dollar."

Maybe it's five million more for the Joe Shlabotnik Foundation.

Yancy Street Gang
Dec 12 2006 11:51 AM

Could be.

But I wonder how true his rep is.

Let's say I'm his client, and the Astros are offering me $120 million and the Mets are offering me $115 million. And I say to Boras, "You know, Scott, I grew up as a Mets fan and I'd love to live in New York again after six years in Milwaukee. Plus, I hate Texas."

The press would have us believe that I'd have no choice in the matter. That Boras always makes his client take the highest offer. I have my doubts about how true that is. Ultimately, isn't it the player that's calling the shots?

In the case above, if Boras had used Houston to leverage the Mets up from $90 million to $115 million, then he did a good job for me. He gets less of a commission if I choose the Mets, but he's still getting an awfully big payday.

Frayed Knot
Dec 13 2006 02:28 PM

The parties are en route to Boston [url=http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/baseball/mlb/12/13/matsuzaka.signs/index.html]with a 6-year deal in hand[/url]

Looks like - for the most part - that the BoSox hold-the-ground strategy won out over Boras's bluster.

Yancy Street Gang
Dec 13 2006 02:32 PM

They'll pay him $52 million for the six years.

With the posting fee, it ends up costing the $103 million over six, or about $17.2 million per year.

Edgy DC
Dec 13 2006 02:40 PM

Which shouldn't be his concern in a fair world.

The great Daisuke Matsuzaka ends up with Gil Meche money.

Farmer Ted
Dec 13 2006 02:49 PM

I had a nice talk with a friend today who is a legal scholar in sports law. He said that the posting thing isn't unusual and is very common in European soccer. He said that sort of practice is probably here for quite a while. It's just that American sports have never really dealt with this process of negotiating with a player who has a binding contract with another team.

One thing he thought was strange was how player "sales" don't occur anymore. At least not since Bowie Kuhn blocked Charlie Finely from doing it in '76. Kuhn, according to my friend, had a hard-on for Finley after Finley tried to force Mike Andrews onto the DL after he committed two errors against our beloved Mets in the '73 WS. No team has tried it since thinking that this was new precedent. According to him, the process still seems to be legal. His argument is the Pirates of the 90s. Why not be able to sell a Sid Breem and and a Van Slyke in order shed salary to be able to pay a bigger contract to keep Bonds and Bonilla? As long as you're not shedding salary and showing progress in your overall team salary level, the commissioner should not be able to block a team from doing so. Perhaps Montreal teams could have sold off decent talent in order to keep Pedro, Vlad, etc., or the Marlins sell off a few players without having to go through a complete fire sale gutting.

Johnny Dickshot
Dec 13 2006 02:58 PM

John Thorn had an interesting take on the whole thing. He basically argues that MLB and NPB are in cahoots on the benefits of the posting system (I'd have guessed NPB was, and MLB wasn't, necessarily) and is sympathetic to Boras as a Marvin Miller of the disenfranchised talent (which I agree).

Anyway, stay with it:

]The Matsuzaka Dilemma
Written by John Thorn
Tuesday, 12 December 2006

This whole swirl may be over by the time you read this, but the meaning is the same, no matter how it comes out, and so is the moral. I’m talking about the sequence in which the Boston Red Sox were revealed to have outbid other baseball clubs for the thirty-day negotiating rights to “posted” Seibu Lion pitcher Daisuke Matsuzaka, who wishes to pitch in the United States but is not, under Nippon Professional Baseball (NPB) regulations, eligible for free agency until 2008. This Thursday night at midnight, when December 14 becomes December 15, is the witching hour.

As I write, Boston Red Sox executives have just landed the owner’s plane on the West Coast to plant themselves on agent Scott Boras’s doorstep. His Japanese client is mum on the seeming breakdown in negotiations, but as he has not fired his representative one may deduce that he is in on the game. It is a game designed by Major League Baseball (MLB) and the NPB, but as they seem only dimly to have understood their own rules, D-Mat and his designated hitter have made their own—or rather, as we shall see, correctly fathomed the implicit rule structure of the posting system. Bottom line: no matter how this shakes out, while D-Mat is not exactly the reincarnation of Curt Flood, Scott Boras has taken the mantle of Marvin Miller, and is my new hero.

Yesterday I had lunch at the local Chinese restaurant where, despite my better judgment, I ate my customary sacramental portion of the stale fortune cookie and read its message. “It is better to have a hen tomorrow than an egg today” was the word from on high. Wait, I thought; this reverses the more commonly expressed wisdom that not only is an egg today better than a hen tomorrow, but also its avian corrolary about birds in hand and those in the bush. I wondered: might Boras have received the same, seemingly counterintuitive message?

Let’s back up for a moment and see how we got here. In the system by which a player is to be posted, both the team and player must agree on the posting. The team then notifies the NPB Commissioner’s Office that the player will be posted, which then notifies MLB, which notifies all of its teams. The MLB teams then have four days to submit a closed bid for the right to negotiate a contract with the player. If the high bid is accepted by the NPB team holding the player’s rights, the winning MLB team has thirty days to reach an agreement with the player. If the bid is rejected, the player is not “posted.” If the player signs a contract with the MLB team by the end of the signing period, then the NPB team receives the bid money. If the player does not sign a contract with the MLB team by the end of the signing period, the player is returned to the NPB team and the NPB team receives nothing.

Whoever designed this may have had in mind that classic scenario of game theory called the “Prisoner’s Dilemma.” It is a mathematical and psychological game illustrating how rational actions by individuals may not always lead to positive outcomes for either the individuals or the group. The Prisoner’s Dilemma is described neatly in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy:

“Tanya and Cinque have been arrested for robbing the Hibernia Savings Bank and placed in separate isolation cells. Both care much more about their personal freedom than about the welfare of their accomplice. A clever prosecutor makes the following offer to each. ‘You may choose to confess or remain silent. If you confess and your accomplice remains silent I will drop all charges against you and use your testimony to ensure that your accomplice does serious time. Likewise, if your accomplice confesses while you remain silent, they will go free while you do the time. If you both confess I get two convictions, but I’ll see to it that you both get early parole. If you both remain silent, I’ll have to settle for token sentences on firearms possession charges. If you wish to confess, you must leave a note with the jailer before my return tomorrow morning.’

“The ‘dilemma’ faced by the prisoners here is that, whatever the other does, each is better off confessing than remaining silent. But the outcome obtained when both confess is worse for each than the outcome they would have obtained had both remained silent. A common view is that the puzzle illustrates a conflict between individual and group rationality. A group whose members pursue rational self-interest may all end up worse off than a group whose members act contrary to rational self-interest. More generally, if the payoffs are not assumed to represent self-interest, a group whose members rationally pursue any goals may all meet less success than if they had not rationally pursued their goals individually. Puzzles with this structure were devised and discussed by Merrill Flood and Melvin Dresher in 1950, as part of the Rand Corporation’s investigations into game theory (which Rand pursued because of possible applications to global nuclear strategy).”

So, the underlying scheme of Prisoner’s Dilemma is to have the two prisoners collaborate wittingly or unwittingly against their own interest, with the outcome weighted to benefit the sate as represented by the police and prosecutor. The dilemma resides in the fact that each prisoner has a choice between only two options, but cannot make a good decision without knowing what the other one will do.

I suggest that the posting system was created along these lines to benefit the “state”—each league and each team involved. Think of MLB and Boston as the police and prosecutor in the above scenario, knowing that the salutary actions of Prisoner A (NPB and Seibu) and Prisoner B (Matsuzaka and Boras) are necessary to prevent the mutually assured destruction (M.A.D.) of MLB. That was the prospect some owners envisioned in 1973-74, at the dawn of free agency: that in an auction scenario, dollars would pursue scarce/unique assets in an irrationally exuberant way that would effectively transfer control of the game into the players’ hands. Marvin Miller cleverly assuaged the owners’ fears while assuring high prices for his players’ union by restricting free agency to those with six years’ service in the major leagues; had he opted for universal free agency, as he might have, the flood of talent onto the market each year would have depressed salaries.

The design problem in the Prisoner’s Dilemma game above is that Prisoner Seibu has its deal in hand and is (ostensibly) denied the option of contributing some of its $51.1 million posting fee from Boston toward Prisoner Matsuzaka’s new contract. Indeed, without flexibility the fortunes of Seibu/NPB are more closely tied to the Police/Prosecutor than to Matsuzaka despite the pitcher’s total control over Seibu’s posting windfall. Boston, which stands ready to pay the sum and call it a bargain, instead feels aggrieved because its $51.1 million in expense is counted as nothing by Boras, who is looking to obtain $100 million for a six-year contract, pretty much in line with what his client would fetch in an unrestricted market. Boston had intended to pay out $100 million, all right, but had figured that Boras would give the club credit for half of that for “liberating” his client. No such luck, nor should there have been.

The posting system entices Boston (and other bidding clubs) with the lure of paying for a free agent in a tangential way that would not increase its exposure to luxury tax. The Red Sox are further compensated by considering the payment to Seibu as an inexpensive licensing or entry fee to market their brand vigorously in Japan. Additionally, the exclusivity that came with their winning bid permitted them not only to pursue Matsuzaka, but also to defend against the Yankees landing him.

With its $51.1 million sugarplum, Seibu thought it was being rewarded for having nurtured Matsuzaka’s talent to the point that he was one of the top five pitchers in the world, and for graciously letting him go to America two years before NPB regulations would otherwise allow. In fact Seibu was also being pulled out of a very considerable financial hole, as the posting fee hits up on their bottom line as pure net income ... plus they gain at least $12 million in the amount they would otherwise have had to pay Matsuzaka for 2007 and 2008, the last years of his contract with the Lions.

MLB/Boston is in effect attempting to coerce a “confession” from Prisoner Matsuzaka because he risks embarrassment by returning to pitch for Seibu after 36,000 fans bade him farewell at the Lions’ Stadium, and because Seibu doesn’t want him back at the forfeiture of $63 million it is already counting on.

What did MLB and the 29 teams not in the running for D-Mat’s services gain by the posting system? A presumptive lid on D-Mat’s demands and their escalating effect on pitcher salaries, already heightened by the ineffectual Adam Eaton and the awful Justin Marquis, each of whom received multiyear contracts at about $8 million per. With Matsuzaka wearing carmine hose, MLB will gain a new hero to promote its brand in Japan as well as the USA, just as Ichiro proved a marketing windfall. In fact this posting system is a nostalgic throwback, recreating for owners a glimpse of the paradise they enjoyed prior to free agency, when they owned the market and could say “take it or leave it” to the players. While the posting system may have been born of a genuine wish to protect Japanese baseball and avoid the appearance of American cultural imperialism, it has played out as an exercise in “Who will rule.”

As Boras has evidently surmised, even though MLB and NPB thought they had boxed in Prisoner Matsuzaka, it turned out that he and his client were not locked in behind iron bars but instead, like Br’er Rabbit, had been thrown into a briar patch from which they could easily escape. Boras has recognized that while the game is structured like Prisoner’s Dilemma, counting upon Seibu and his client to act independently in their perceived self-interest to the benefit of Organized Baseball, there is in fact only one prisoner, and without his yielding, there is no palatable outcome.

If MLB and NPB had a game theory for how this would play itself out, it was the wrong one ... styled as Prisoner’s Dilemma but quickly revealing itself to be the “Dollar Auction,” another, even more vicious game, in which each of two contestants seeks to overpay for an asset in order to avoid being the second-place bidder whose money will have been utterly wasted.

In the Dollar Auction someone offers to sell a dollar bill to the highest bidder. The highest bidder will get the dollar, but the second-highest must also pay what he bid yet get nothing in return. Think here of “throwing good money after bad,” of “saving face,” of “having too much invested to cut and run,” of “staying the course.” If you can buy a dollar for a dime, this looks like a good deal. Even as the bidding rises in ten-cent increments to the 50-cent level, it still seems a bargain. At the 70-cent level, one may expect that all but two bidders will have fallen off the chase. When the dollar-mark is reached, the underbidder, rather than accepting defeat, will tend to bid ten cents more so as not to lose 90 cents.

“People escalate their commitment both to justify their earlier bids and to prevent the financial and ego loss of coming in second,” Max H. Bazerman wrote in Psychology Today twenty years ago. “No specific bid is clearly wrong, since it is rational to bid ‘just another 10 cents,’ if the other party is about to quit bidding. But when both parties think this way, an escalatory spiral emerges that is very reminiscent of the Vietnam War and other international and industrial failures in which both competitors get trapped by their previous commitments.”

At first blush the winner in the Matsuzaka Dilemma appeared to be Boston; if the Mets were second, at $13 million less, they felt no ill consequence of their bid. Had the posting system had been a true Dollar Auction, with succesive rounds of bidding, rather than a veiled Prisoner’s Dilemma with closed bids, the price for D-Mat might have gone much higher, as the underbidder would have been highly motivated to stay in the game. But now Boston’s inadvertent partner has been revealed not to be MLB but Seibu, which unlike Boston—which will retain the defensive benefit of its bid—will lose everything, as if it had been the underbidder in a Dollar Auction. And Br’er Boras and D-Mat, if they do not prevail this year, can play again only with more bargaining clout.

Yancy Street Gang
Dec 13 2006 03:13 PM

It seems now, with hindsight, that Matsuzaka's best option would have been to stay in Japan for the next two years and then become a free agent after 2008, with the ability to negotiate with 30 MLB clubs.

Using the analogy from the above article, he ate the egg instead of letting it grow into a hen.

If the Red Sox had won the bid with a "mere" $10 million, Matsuzaka would probably have been able to leverage a higher salary from Boston. But he was the victim of his own desirability.

Also, if he was less concerned about "face" and its cultural ramifications, he could also have said, "The Red Sox aren't paying me what I feel I deserve. I'll go back the the Seibu Lions and pitch for another two years." That would certainly have been to his financial advantage as well.

I don't blame the Red Sox for doing what they did. If they paid Matsuzaka $17 million per year in salary, he'd end up costing them about $23 million per, which I can understand them not wanting to do.

The next Japanese player will probably think twice about playing the posting game, unless the rules change or unless he's a lesser player who can expect a lower bid from the MLB team. If it was me, I'd wait until full free agency. Matsuzaka will be pitching for at least four of the six years at a discount that was forced by the $51 million bid. And maybe all six years are at a discount; I don't know what he would have made from the Lions.

cleonjones11
Dec 13 2006 03:26 PM

Screw Dice-K ITS ZITO TIME!!!!

smg58
Dec 13 2006 03:47 PM

The Red Sox come out winners at that price. Assuming Matsuzaka is as good as billed, of course.

Two factors would have kept the price that low. One is how badly did Matsuzaka want to play in the US right now. The other is the risk factor involved with staying another year in Japan. If he's not as dominant next year, his market value diminishes. And if he gets hurt, his market value vanishes entirely. So it would make sense to concede some salary as an insurance policy. Still, I thought $70M over six years would have been the minimum amount to agree on given the risk of staying put, so I'm guessing Matsuzaka told Boras to get as much as he could but ultimately agree.

Edgy DC
Dec 13 2006 03:55 PM
Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Dec 14 2006 09:29 AM

I'm not so sure anybody wins, though the Tigers are sitting pretty well right now. The Sox, in order to make their investment worthwhile, had to lock hiim up for a longer period than most folks want to risk on pitchers --- any pitchers.

Six years at $17.2 million per annum is comparable to Mike Hampton money. That didn't really work out.

Vic Sage
Dec 13 2006 05:00 PM

Mike Hampton didn't open up the Japanese TV market for Colorado. And signing Mike Hampton didn't keep him out of the clutches of the Rockies' main competitor (because they don't have one).

Signing pitchers to long term deals is always risky. That being said, i think the BoSox did this just right.

Nymr83
Dec 13 2006 05:12 PM

For all his accomplishments in Japan (some of which, like 200 pitches on 3 days rest in a high school game might raise concerns) he is still a guy with 0 major league innings under his belt, for that reason alone paying him that much money isn't a decision i'd normally expect to see made but oh well, its not my team's money.

As far as the "prisoner's dilemma" goes, I don't really like the analogy here. Also, the article gets part of it WRONG:
]The dilemma resides in the fact that each prisoner has a choice between only two options, but cannot make a good decision without knowing what the other one will do.


Even knowing "what the other one will do" does not solve the dilemma. here's an example:
-Prisoner A and Prisoner B rob a bank with illegal guns.
-robbing a bank carries a 10 year sentence
-illegal possession of a gun carries a 3 year sentence

-the prosecutor tells them both that if they both confess he will ask that the sentences for the two crimes be served concurrently (combined jail time: 20 years) if one confesses, he will get probation only and the other will serve the two terms consecutively (combined jail time: 13 years) if neither confesses he will nail them with the gun crimes but doesnt have the evidence to convict on the robbery (combined jail time: 6 years)

-it is clearly in their combined best interest to both not confess

-let's say the prosecutor allows them to talk before making their decisions, and they agree with each other to remain silent

-after that discussion here are prisoner A's options:
1. if he believes B will confess, he had best confess himself to serve 10 years instead of 13.
2. if he believes B will not confess, he should still confess himself to serve nothing instead of 3 years.

-the same is true for B, and so they will both (if acting rationally) confess despit their assurances to the contrary to each other.

This works in a business context as well, most notably with cartels or other horizontal agreements on price or output levels- no matter what you expect the others to do it is always best for you to "cheat" on the agreement

Johnny Dickshot
Dec 14 2006 09:13 AM

Whacky Matusaka Video. YSG, did you watch this show while in japan? I want my baseball coverage like this, dammit:

Willets Point
Dec 14 2006 10:20 AM

]I want my baseball coverage like this, dammit


You want a bunch of jocks yelling and acting goofy while random and distracting graphics pop up all over the screen? Try watching ESPN. Or Fox.

Edgy DC
Dec 14 2006 10:29 AM

I think he wants all that but in exotic languages with inside jokes he doesn't get.

Yancy Street Gang
Dec 14 2006 10:29 AM

I can't seem to access that link, so I don't know what it contains.

I was watching one show that looked like a Japanese version of The Today Show. A happy smiling morning team talking to each other, delivering news and fun features. They switched to the sports guy for a report on the Hanshin Tigers pitcher who the Yankees won the bidding on. (I'm not remembering his name right now.) This was before the winner was announced. They did something where a photo of his head was sticking out of a cartoon car and the car was bouncing around and all kinds of hilarity ensued.

My Japanese wasn't good enough for me to really follow what they were talking about, and I wasn't getting the joke at all. But the Japanese Morning Crew all had a good laugh over it.

The only other baseball coverage I saw was about the Red Sox and Matsusaka. I wasn't getting much of that either. Once, though, they had Red Sox fans in a bar in Boston talking about how great he'd be for them. I was able to hear their words in English, but they had Japanese subtitles displayed on the screen.

seawolf17
Dec 14 2006 11:47 AM

If you've never watched "MXC" on Spike TV, you're missing out. Funniest show on television.

Johnny Dickshot
Dec 14 2006 11:56 AM

Right you are, Ken

Rotblatt
Dec 14 2006 12:12 PM

]Signing pitchers to long term deals is always risky. That being said, i think the BoSox did this just right.


I agree. They outlay a huge amount of cash in the short term, but the posting fee doesn't affect their salary cap, and Matsuzaka's annual salary is very reasonable, even if he only ends up being an average pitcher. In other words, he'll retain some trade value, even with the length of his contract.

My hunch is that Matsuzaka will be very solid for them, if not the ace they paid for. And frankly, I can't wait to see him pitch.

Rockin' Doc
Dec 14 2006 01:18 PM

I hope Matsuzaka becomes known as the "Yankee Slayer".

A Boy Named Seo
Dec 14 2006 01:47 PM

Is that the Japanese version of a White Sox jersey or is that another team? The head on that, um, microphone that chick was wielding was freaking me out.

Centerfield
Dec 14 2006 02:41 PM

They seemed to be having a ball. A couple questions:

1. When Matsuzaka was batting, was he facing himself?

2. How much would it cost to sign that video version of Matsuzaka? That might be cheaper than signing Zito.

That setup with the markers for "base hits" and cutout baserunners and video pitchers, that's how I want to spend my weekends from now on.

Willets Point
Dec 23 2006 05:02 AM

Bobby V weighs in on NPB posting system.