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Bring Him Back (Left Field 2007)

Centerfield Oct 20 2006 11:20 AM

Cliff Floyd after the game: “You gotta give credit to the St. Louis Cardinals for beating a great team, and I look forward to this team getting, not a lot better, but a little better over the winter and come spring training we’ll be set… “Hopefully I’m a New York Met. [My goal] is to be healthy and prove to these guys that I can play left field - and if I do that, I would love to come back and play in front of some great fans and a great city.”… In his blog: “I want to be a part of this team next year. It's been frustrating, because I know what I have to offer and I know what I can bring to this team. These guys have been incredible this year, not only on the field but in here, hanging out. It's been the best team I've ever been a part of… “I know it's a business and I know that part of it. But I'm going to give them something to think about and get healthy so they can have Cliff in mind when they decide on a team for next year. “I'm going to work hard to do so, I know that. So keep pulling for ol' Cliff. I'll be back.”… With his surgery, there's no reason to think Cliff couldn't have a season like '05, and after this year, he may come as a bargain. The only options that would give us more production than Cliff would be Carlos Lee and Alfonso Soriano, both of whom would be far more expensive. Besides, Soriano at 2nd base might be a better fit for this team anyway. (Ideally, I'd re-sign Cliff, sign Soriano for 2B, start Green in RF, and trade Milledge for pitching) His salary was only $6.5 million this year so I think you certainly offer him arbitration.

Johnny Dickshot Oct 20 2006 11:21 AM

He'd be a great bench player.

seawolf17 Oct 20 2006 11:25 AM

NO NO NO NO. Goodbye, Cliff. He's worthless as a bench player. I hate to keep bringing up these pesky numbers, but he's zero for 19 with ten strikeouts as a pinch hitter in the last four years. You've done great things, Cliff, and I'll remember your years here fondly, but goodbye.

Yancy Street Gang Oct 20 2006 11:25 AM

I like Cliff Floyd, and I wouldn't mind seeing him come back, but I'm not sold on letting him be the starting left fielder. I'd rather see him as an extra outfielder and a Rusty Staub off the bench. (Problem with that is Julio Franco is already our Rusty Staub. I can't see having two Rusty Staubs.) If they added Soriano at second, they might be able to get by with an outfield of Endy and Beltran and Green. (Not crazy about the Green part, but for now anyway, he's our guy.)

Edgy DC Oct 20 2006 11:27 AM

He'd be a great bench player with benefits, able to return to the lineup when needed, like Valentin this year or Bernie Williams with the Yankees. How does this work, though? How do you resign somebody at like one fourth of what they were getting? Isn't that one of those "wait until May" dealies? Can you non-tender them and sign them out of the free-agent pool?

Edgy DC Oct 20 2006 11:28 AM

Cliff wouldn't be Rusty. He'd presumably be able to play the field a few times a week. He'd be more like Danny Heep.

DocTee Oct 20 2006 11:28 AM

N-D should NOT be a starter.

MFS62 Oct 20 2006 11:30 AM

(Trying another bad analogy here) To me, Cliff is like a Faberge egg. When whole, he is valuable. When broken (as in injured), he is useless. (See wolf's numbers) Unfortunately, he keeps getting broken a lot. Sorry Cliff. Your time with the Mets should be ended. Later

Yancy Street Gang Oct 20 2006 11:32 AM

I think he can if you can get your left field offense from another position, like second base. If next year's second baseman is Julio Lugo, for example, then Endy stays in the role he's in. But if they get Soriano, and don't get a bat for the outfield for whatever reason, then Endy isn't the worst option.

Frayed Knot Oct 20 2006 11:38 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Oct 20 2006 11:49 AM

DocTee wrote: N-D should NOT be a starter. AGREED!! Met fans may tend to fall in love with guys like him for all the over-achieving/underdog reasons, but they also need to realize that he hit 4 HRs in nearly 400 plate appearances which just isn't going to cut it as a full-time corner OFer EVEN IF he doesn't suddenly change back into a pumpkin. I like the hell out of Cliff and it would truly suck if that K-looking was his last AB in a NYM uniform, but him as a once and future Met will be a tough sell. First, he has to prove he's not only healthy but also that he has a reasonable chance of remaining so. At that point, he'd almost certainly have to accept a reduced rate/1-year deal to stay here with only vague promises of playing time ... and, if he truly is demonstrably healthy and ready to go, someone else will almost certainly give him a better/longer offer which we should be very leery to match.

metsmarathon Oct 20 2006 11:43 AM

i wouldn't mind seeing us bring in soriano to butcher second, with an outfield of beltran in center, cliff / endy in left, and green / milledge in right. that's deep and fairly robust, imo, with decent growth potential in milledge. i'm not ready to give up on him yet, unless htere's a trade out there for a darned fine pitcher.

Vic Sage Oct 20 2006 12:02 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Oct 20 2006 12:25 PM

nonononononononono. Our offense went up in smoke this post-season partly because Valentin and Chavez were overexposed and returned to the mean, dragging down the whole bottom 1/2 of the lineup. I like Chavez as a 4th OFer, NOT as an everyday corner OFer from whom you need run production. Valentin, too, is unlikely to repeat this season at his age. Floyd has broken down consistently over his career. Now, as an older player, he becomes EXTREMELY unlikely to hold up. I'm sorry, Cliffie, but the bar is closed. Soriano and Cliff (on edit: I mean CARLOS!) Lee are available. Get one of them. Hell, get both of them and put Soriano back at 2b. Our payroll would still be about 60% of the Yankee payroll. Then, even I could pitch for them.

seawolf17 Oct 20 2006 12:06 PM

I think Vic means Carlos Lee, formerly of the Brewers, most recently of the Rangers. (Cliff Lee is the pitcher for the Indians.) I'd be interested. FWIW, I'd invite Endy back as the lefty half of the Chavez/Milledge Spare Outfielder Roster Spot, but I wouldn't be horrified if he got 300-400 ABs next year.

smg58 Oct 20 2006 12:07 PM

I don't see the point in bringing back Floyd. I like the guy and always have, but it's time to move on.

RealityChuck Oct 20 2006 12:57 PM

Much as I'd love to have Floyd in the clubhouse, I think yesterday was his last AB for the Mets. Age and injuries have caught up with him. It's been great, but I don't see the Mets going with him. Now, if he were interested in retiring and coaching, that could be possible. Maybe replacing Acta if he gets a manager job.

old original jb Oct 20 2006 01:39 PM

Vic Sage wrote: nonononononononono. Our offense went up in smoke this post-season partly because Valentin and Chavez were overexposed and returned to the mean, dragging down the whole bottom 1/2 of the lineup. I can't bring myself to agree that the usefullness of Cliff Floyd to the Mets is over, for emotional reasons. But I agree fully with the part about Valentin and Chavez overexposed and returning to the mean. In previous days, I'd be tempted to make some counterargument about what these players add defensively. But last night it was obvious that I if the bottom of the Mets lineup could hit worth a darn prior to the ninth inning of the game, it wouldn't have been such a big deal if Chavez weren't there to catch and prevent Rolen's homerun. Endy's glove can't make up for the lack of punch at the bottom of the lineup when he is hitting at career norms..

Rotblatt Oct 20 2006 01:42 PM

I love Chavez, but I think he got a little lucky this season, and I would in no way expect him to put up similar numbers. I'm down with him as a fourth outfielder, but that's it. As for Floyd, I love you, buddy, but it's time for you to go, for all the reasons Vic mentioned. Soriano had a career year this year, and I think he'll end up going for either too much money, too many years, or both. Carlos Lee, I'm down with. For second base, how about Mark DeRosa? I'd prefer him over Loretta, and possibly Lugo (who had an atrocious second half) as well.

MFS62 Oct 20 2006 01:58 PM

Belliard is also a free agent at the end of the year. He's 32. Loretta has lost most of his power recently. And he's 35. Later

Frayed Knot Oct 20 2006 02:29 PM

Carlos Lee warning: He's fat, slow, and a really bad fielder. And when you consider that he was basically an out-of-shape DH-type while still in his 20's (just turned 30 this past summer) and that any FA contract is going to take him towards age 35, I'd be very wary of dishing out big bucks contracts to him if I'm an NL team.

Elster88 Oct 22 2006 11:46 AM

Cliff Floyd Season ----- Games Played 1994 - 100 1995 - 029 1996 - 117 1997 - 061 1998 - 153 1999 - 069 2000 - 121 2001 - 149 2002 - 146 2003 - 108 2004 - 113 2005 - 150 2006 - 097 I love the guy but reality must be faced. In 13 seasons he's played 140 games or more 4 times. In 13 seasons he's played 120 games or more 5 times. In 13 seasons he's played 100 games or more 9 times. Thanks for the memories, Cornelius. See ya around.

RealityChuck Oct 22 2006 04:48 PM

Vic Sage wrote: nonononononononono. Our offense went up in smoke this post-season partly because Valentin and Chavez were overexposed and returned to the mean, dragging down the whole bottom 1/2 of the lineup. And this is why sabermetrics is so completely bogus. Baseball Prospectus was delighted that Chavez was replacing Floyd, because all the statistics said he was the better outfielder and the team was better with him in the outfield. So now it can be played both ways: if Chavez plays well, they can claim, "see, we said he was better than Floyd." If he plays badly, they can say, "returned to the mean." The real answer ("We're taking a guess and were wrong,") is never mentioned. The assumption is that the sabermetrics is always right, and if it's wrong, then it's still right. Anything can be rationalized.

Willets Point Oct 22 2006 04:52 PM

Uh-oh. I have a deep foreboding about the future of this thread.

OlerudOwned Oct 22 2006 04:54 PM

Chuck, don't blame the stats for the claims people make. You can do the same thing with conventional stats. It just has less fancy-math words.

Edgy DC Oct 22 2006 09:26 PM

What Baseball Prospectus work is he referencing?

Frayed Knot Oct 22 2006 09:52 PM

What BP has been saying (at least some pieces I've seen) is that Chavez 'this year' has been cumulatively better than what Cliff had been providing (again, this season) so that Cliff being mostly unavailable for the playoffs was pretty much a good thing for the Mets. I don't think they're trying to claim that a swap like that has always, and will always, be so positive.

Zvon Oct 23 2006 12:11 AM

Frayed Knot wrote: ........ so that Cliff being mostly unavailable for the playoffs was pretty much a good thing for the Mets. Not so. No matter how you slice it. (Im not responding to u, FK, just talkin out loud in re: that BP statement) He took up a valuable NLCS roster spot that we could have put to better use. I was all for Cliff being on the NLCS roster, when it was established he could play, but, being that he disabled himself again in such a way that proved he was far from being okay or healed, I was wrong in letting my sentiments get in the way. I think Mets managment and medical are guilty of the same thing. They gambled that Floyd would hold up--he not only didnt but went down 1st game of the series, 2nd inning, on a routine flyout. Whats that tell ya? Tells me: bad gamble. Sure, if Cliff comes up in game 7 and hits a limpoff series winning homer, it plays out great, but he didnt and it didnt. Cliff hurt us in the playoffs---unintentionally, Im sure, just by limping along with the team. As far as next season. Endy off the bench no matter who plays left. Chavez is a great filler. Too light a bat to be a regular. Floyd? So much is stacked against him now.... Do we take a chance like we did in the NLCS by having him tag along for 2007? Even if he comes to camp healthy and hits... Sadly, no. Bad gamble. Floyd has shown me alot and gained my utmost respect as a ballplayer, as a Met. But we need more out of that spot than he can give us, Im afraid. If there was some way to assure me he'd do what he did in 2005, Id go with him. But there isnt, and I say it was a pleasure to see you play, Cliff. Good luck wherever you go.

Vic Sage Oct 23 2006 10:02 AM

]And this is why sabermetrics is so completely bogus. Chuck, you're amazing. I have so many interests in common with you... movies, comics, writing SF, Mets baseball, accumulating facial hair... yet we consistently have vastly different takes on every single topic. for example, your denigration of an entire field of study that attempts to understand baseball from analysis of data (rather than ephemera, anecdote or magical thinking).

metsmarathon Oct 23 2006 10:26 AM

i think the point with the BP analysis was that 7 days of endy + 1 at bat of cliffy > 7 days of cliffy + 1 at bat (or so) of endy, for this series. basically, if cliff was going to be on the roster anyways, the mets were better off with him on the bench, than with him performing as he had been, when the alternative was endy. its a whole 'nother argument whether cliff should've been on the roster at all. and what vic said, too...

Elster88 Oct 23 2006 02:03 PM

Amazing isn't the word that comes to mind.

Farmer Ted Oct 23 2006 03:47 PM

"Cliff wouldn't be Rusty. He'd presumably be able to play the field a few times a week. He'd be more like Danny Heep." With that bum heel, he'd be more robotic than the Robotic Danny Heep.