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I don't like the names I'm hearing

Centerfield Oct 23 2006 11:31 AM

Over the weekend, I read some articles about filling holes for next season. Instead of guys like Soriano or Carlos Lee, they're talking about guys like Moises Alou and Julio Lugo. Alou is 40 years old, and Lugo is a guy who doesn't hit for much power and doesn't get on base. I'm guessing both could be had relatively cheap, but with last year's team coming so close, I'd really like to seem them open it up and go for it all rather than trying to cut corners. After the 2000 season, the Mets failed to upgrade their offense and attempted to replace Hampton with cost-effective options Kevin Appier and Steve Trachsel. And in 2001, they didn't return to the post-season. I'm hoping they don't make that same mistake this off-season. I hope they bring in an impact player at either second base or LF, then the other can be filled in by a cheaper option. I'm hoping they pursue Jason Schmidt aggressively. He's not a bona fide ace, but he's a second-tier guy, and at 33, I would think he has a few years left in him.

metirish Oct 23 2006 11:33 AM

Seems like the Mets have been after Moises Alou for a few years now.

Vic Sage Oct 23 2006 11:47 AM

if we're going to shop at the discount store for 2b and/or LF, i'd prefer a REALLY cheap option, like DeRosa and Jose Guillen, rather than Lugo and Alou, who we'd have to pay more for but isn't actually any better. That way we can spend money on a Schmidt or similar SPer. And Schmidt is too an ace, when he's healthy enough to pitch. but i agree with CF that this is no time to cut corners.

ABG Oct 23 2006 11:58 AM

I like Ronnie Belliard as an option at 2b. He's a FA, right?

Edgy DC Oct 23 2006 11:58 AM

I think part of the thinking is to look for guys they can get for a short-term (preferably one-year) deal, so they can toss them aside when their prospects ripen.

Johnny Dickshot Oct 23 2006 12:00 PM

ABG wrote: I like Ronnie Belliard as an option at 2b. He's a FA, right? Well, he's a FAT, at least.

Yancy Street Gang Oct 23 2006 12:01 PM

I guess it's true that an advantage to Alou is that he can be easily displaced by Lastings Milledge while Alfonso Soriano can't, but that's not the way I want them making decisions. I'd rather they sign Soriano and make Milledge try to displace Green.

Edgy DC Oct 23 2006 12:08 PM

I hear ye. I'm just speculating. Belliard is a fright to me. He's more or less capable, but he's a chunker, in his thirties (when that stuff catches up with you), and I don't want to fall into the Yankee pattern of misvaluing guys because they did well against us in the playoffs.

sharpie Oct 23 2006 12:10 PM

Also, big dropoff in defense with Belliard from Valentin. Plus, that sticking his tongue out thing is disgusting.

MFS62 Oct 23 2006 12:11 PM

Some comments: The day after the NLCS ended, Omar was interviewed by M&MD. He said that he has already been told by Fred Wilpon that he will be able to spend to improve the team. He added "within fiscal reason, of course." I don't think he will be looking at only low priced solutions. Edgy, I'm not sure if there are any middle infielders in the organization who will be ready to make a significant contribution in the near future. ABG - yes, Belliard is a free agent this year. I'd be all right with Lugo. He was a Mets fan as a kid, and has said they are the only team he'd be willing to change positions for on a regular basis. I like the idea of someone with a shortstop's arm playing second. We saw how important this was this year on Valentin's relays because of Green's diminished throwing ability in right. The first guy who volunteers to shake Alou's hand when he joins the Mets will get my vote for team captain. Later

Vic Sage Oct 23 2006 12:13 PM

Belliard is the same as Lugo is the same as DeRosa... guys with OPS of around .750 (with OPS+ in 90-95 range), around 30ish. if this is all your going to go after, just get the guy who costs the least.

Valadius Oct 23 2006 12:16 PM

With the offense we generate out of shortstop, I would be willing to settle for an average offensive player at second base with a great glove. We need to make sure our defense up the middle stays sound.

metirish Oct 23 2006 12:18 PM

]The first guy who volunteers to shake Alou's hand when he joins the Mets will get my vote for team captain. Is he a dick or what?

MFS62 Oct 23 2006 12:21 PM

Valadius wrote: With the offense we generate out of shortstop, I would be willing to settle for an average offensive player at second base with a great glove. We need to make sure our defense up the middle stays sound. Yes, defense up the middle is very important. But if they move on that front, the team still needs a righty hitter to play left to balance the lineup. And if that is going to be Alou or Lee, Omar had better have some money left over to get Beltran a pair of roller skates to cover the ground between either of them and Green. Later

soupcan Oct 23 2006 12:22 PM

metirish wrote: ]The first guy who volunteers to shake Alou's hand when he joins the Mets will get my vote for team captain. Is he a dick or what? He pees on his hands to 'toughen them up'.

metirish Oct 23 2006 12:23 PM

The first thing Omar should do is extend Willie's contract,and he has talked about doing that,Nomar probably won't be back in LA,can he play second base?

Edgy DC Oct 23 2006 12:24 PM

]Edgy, I'm not sure if there are any middle infielders in the organization who will be ready to make a significant contribution in the near future. I didn't mean to imply otherwise. ]I'd be all right with Lugo. He was a Mets fan as a kid, and has said they are the only team he'd be willing to change positions for on a regular basis. I don't think he's really said this. Plus, he gave the Dodgers absolute garbage this year after coming over in the midst of what seemed like a breakout season for the Rays. He's been a passable hitter at best throughout his career, and that looks worse when you take him away from shortstop. Check out the OPS+ numbers. 2000 HOU 90 2001 HOU 77 2002 HOU 84 2003 HOU 64 2003 TB 99 2003 TOT 95 2004 TB 94 2005 TB 105 2006 TB 122 2006 LA 40 2006 TOT 95 Maybe he couldn't get adjusted to his new city and new role and willl still break out, but I'm not about offering him a multi-year deal and moving him leftward on the defensive spectrum to find out. I also don't think it's cool to send teams flirtatious messages through the papers about what you'd be willing to do if they signed you when you're supposed to be trying to beat them with your current team.

RealityChuck Oct 23 2006 12:25 PM

sharpie wrote: Also, big dropoff in defense with Belliard from Valentin. Plus, that sticking his tongue out thing is disgusting. Maybe that's why they want him. He can join Wright and Pelfrey.

MFS62 Oct 23 2006 12:30 PM

I hadn't looked at Lugo's numbers before that post. He seems to be one of those players who you think is better than he really is. Thanks, Later

smg58 Oct 23 2006 12:30 PM

As usual, I don't know how much money the Mets have to spend, and that will obviously affect whther they should go for one big-money player or several. The big difference between now and 1999 and 2000 is that in both those years they lost somebody to free agency that they couldn't really replace, and that's not going to happen this year. I think they do need to get one of Zito/Schmidt/Matsuzaka. The postseason notwithstanding, the rotation is their area of greatest need, and if they have money for just one big acquisition it needs to be a starting pitcher. Lugo's been fine when given steady at-bats, and it's possible that his stint with the Dodgers lowered his market value below what it should be. He's not somebody I'd stretch the wallet for, though. I'd consider bringing Valentin back if I can get a suitable righty bat (Rich Aurillia might be available) to go with him, but that's obviously a one-year fix. I like Alou, but somebody older than and as fragile as Floyd doesn't sound like a prudent investment. Craig Wilson is a better version of Xavier Nady when allowed to play, and he's a proven lefty-masher, so he might be a good bargain. And of course, if the Mets have money for a second big free agent, you have to put Lee and Soriano on the table.

Farmer Ted Oct 23 2006 12:31 PM

Lugo was mentioned in some trade-related news several years ago until this minor blemish to his reputation. On April 30, 2003, Lugo was arrested and charged with assulting his wife, Mabely Lugo, outside of Minute Maid Park in Houston before playing the Atlanta Braves. Mabely was treated and released from a hospital, and filed a restraining order against Julio. Mabely originally contended that Julio punched her in the head and slammed her head into the windshield of their car. Julio contested that he was acting in self-defense by blocking an attack by his wife, who hit herself and stumbled into the car, smashing her head into the windshield. Mabely later changed her story to coordinate with her husband's, and dropped the restraining order, however Julio was still tried in court accused of misdemeanor assault. Julio was eventually found not guilty, and he has remained out of trouble from the public eye since this incident.

metirish Oct 23 2006 12:35 PM

From Steve Popper in the Bergen Record... ] Jason Schmidt is the other top-of-the-rotation free agent, compiling an 11-9 record with a 3.59 ERA for the Giants. But at 33, his numbers have dropped in recent years, fueling speculation within his own clubhouse that he used and stopped using steroids -- a charge he angrily denied.

Johnny Dickshot Oct 23 2006 12:42 PM

IIRC, Lugo was released by the Astros about 4 seconds after that incident happened. Months later, I got a tour and took BP at MM Park: The bats the Astros provided for us to use were all Julio Lugo models (I grounded to first with his bat!)

TransMonk Oct 23 2006 12:46 PM

I don't want Lugo, Alou or Belliard on my team. Schmidt wouldn't be at the top of my pitchers list either. Not that they listen to me.

metirish Oct 23 2006 12:46 PM

Jeff Suppan will be a FA.

MFS62 Oct 23 2006 12:51 PM

TransMonk wrote: I don't want Lugo, Alou or Belliard on my team. Schmidt wouldn't be at the top of my pitchers list either. Not that they listen to me. So, who would you go after? Later

Yancy Street Gang Oct 23 2006 01:22 PM

It doesn't bother me at all to hear vague rumors about Moises Alou at this point. We were hearing the same things two years ago and we ended up with Carlos Beltran.

TransMonk Oct 23 2006 01:31 PM

="MFS62"] ="TransMonk"]I don't want Lugo, Alou or Belliard on my team. Schmidt wouldn't be at the top of my pitchers list either. Not that they listen to me. So, who would you go after? My X-mas list that will go out to rich Uncle Wilpon and connected Uncle Omar reads as follows: 1. Contract extension for Willie Randolph. He deserves it and it shows potential FA that we're committed to winning. 2. Bring back Tom Glavine. Our opening day rotation for 2007 is pitiful, at least this would solidify the top end and let us evaluate what else needs to be done. Also, it would be nice to have him for his 300th win...to have him go back to ATL to do it would feel pretty crappy 3. Re-sign Endy Chavez 4. Re-sign Chad Bradford 5. Sign Barry Zito - he's tops on my list, anyone else is settling for less because we couldn't get him 6. Put in an honest bid for Matsuzaka 7. I would not be opposed to Soriano, after all, he is the best bet as an offensive FA...what position he would play and where he would bat in the lineup are the 2 big questions. I would want him to play second base and I would keep Cliff Floyd (knowing that Endy and eventually Milledge are waiting) and dismiss Chris Woodward and have Andy Pants for a defensive replacement. That's all for now. I believe this is the offseason to shoot for the moon and, moreover, that the moon isn't that far away. Omar has done things over the past two offseasons that I didn't believe were possible, so now my expectations are higher. The goal should be to get better each year, not just plug in parts so that if everything goes right it may work out. Schmidt, Alou, Lugo and Belliard are all question marks IMO. If they play to their potential them they are an asset to any team. If they don't, then they will be a liability. Zito and Soriano are known quanities that would only help this club.

smg58 Oct 23 2006 02:20 PM

We still have control over Endy for two seasons (only four full years in the bigs) unless the new CBA changes something about free agency. We'd have had a hard time competing with somebody willing to pay him to be an everyday CF, but that appears to be a non-issue right now. It's possible that somebody could make Bradford an offer we wouldn't match, but I'd say the chances are good he'll be back too. Glavine will cost us $14M next year, but doing that and going with Pelfrey or Humber in that spot in 08 should save us money over the long term without hurting the staff. If Zito would benefit from reuniting with Peterson (and I'm inclined to think he would), then he's the best pitching option. Matsuzaka is second, but he appears to be capable. Schmidt is option #3, although given how unpredictable pitching can be and that he basically only had one bad year, I find the steroids accusation insulting.

Elster88 Oct 23 2006 02:23 PM

Am I the only one who thinks Zito is overrated?

MFS62 Oct 23 2006 02:26 PM

Matsuzaka could really break the bank. I've sen estimates that it could cost a major league team $15-20 million just to obtain his negotiating rights from his Japanese club. That would be in addition to the money they would have to spend to sign him. Is he really worth an A-Rod sized contract? Signing him would make it nearly impossible to address other needs. He sounds like a better fit/ more likely a signee for the Yankees. They have several high priced contracts coming off their payroll, they seem to be set in the lineup for next year and pitching is their #1 need. Later

Edgy DC Oct 23 2006 02:31 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Oct 23 2006 02:39 PM

Not that I'm big on the expenses of this posting racket, but that would not amount to an A-Rod-sized deal.

metirish Oct 23 2006 02:34 PM

] Signing him would make it nearly impossible to address other needs. says who, the Mets have plenty of money and IMO if Omar goes after him it's to get him not just to say he tried.

Rotblatt Oct 23 2006 02:41 PM

MFS62 wrote: Matsuzaka could really break the bank. I've sen estimates that it could cost a major league team $15-20 million just to obtain his negotiating rights from his Japanese club. That would be in addition to the money they would have to spend to sign him. Is he really worth an A-Rod sized contract? It doesn't sound like peeps expect Matsuzaka's contract to run more than $12M per year once he's signed, and closer to $10M. People expect the length to be 4 or 5 years. So if we won the posting process for $20 and sign him to a 5-year deal at $10M per year, we'd essentially be paying him $14M per year--only $10M of which would count towards the salary cap dealeo. Now, personally, I expect the winning team to offer more than $20M, but I think an average per year salary of $10 is about right. Frankly, I don't think $14M per year is too much to pay for a young, hard throwing pitcher with a LONG history of success in Japan. And even if it baloons up to $17M (after posting $), it's still nowhere near A-Rod money. Although at that point, I would agree that we're paying too much.

TransMonk Oct 23 2006 02:41 PM

Dont get me wrong...I have no reason to believe that Matsuzaka is worth breaking the bank. I only want to make a bid and if it turns into war of overpaying (which it probably will), then the Yanks can have him. But he's worth a look. Is Zito overrated? Compared to what? Trachsel, Maine, Schmidt, Mulder, Perez? These are the starting pitchers we have under contract right now: Maine Perez Bannister Pelfrey Soler I highly doubt Trachsel or O Hernandez will be back and I know Zambrano won't. Pedro's out until mid-season. Glavine right now is a question mark. No, I don't think Zito's overrated.

Yancy Street Gang Oct 23 2006 02:49 PM

TransMonk wrote: These are the starting pitchers we have under contract right now: Maine Perez Bannister Pelfrey Soler That's rather sobering. I agree, there's no way Trachsel returns, but I'm not convinced that we won't be seeing Orlando Hernandez again. I'd say he's about 50-50 to return, especially considering that list you posted. The Mets are going to spend some money on starters this winter. I'd guess they'll try for one or two "big splashes" and then grab a few guys in their 30's who might be available cheap. I can't imagine them spending $14 million to bring Glavine back, but the Braves won't pay him that much either. I really don't know which team Glavine will pitch for next year, but if he decides he'd rather stay with the Mets, that $14 million won't get in the way.

metirish Oct 23 2006 02:52 PM

From The Atlanta Journal. ] Glavine return to Braves unlikely By DAVID O'BRIEN The Atlanta Journal-Constitution Published on: 10/23/06 Detroit – While there is a chance Tom Glavine could return to the Braves in 2007, the veteran pitcher probably would have to accept a significantly smaller salary than he'd get if he stays with the Mets. And that seems unlikely. Glavine, who has 290 wins and will turn 41 during spring training, told reporters Friday he would talk to his family about whether to stay with the Mets or return to the Braves, the only other team he says he'd pitch for. He won 242 games and two Cy Young Awards with the Braves between 1987-2002. The Braves and his agent say they haven't talked yet; if they did, there could be tampering charges because Glavine is still under contract with the Mets. Agent Gregg Clifton said Sunday he expects to talk this week with Mets general manager Omar Minaya. With Pedro Martinez out for much of next season, Minaya has made it a priority to retain Glavine, who was 15-7 with a 3.82 ERA this season and 2-1 with a 1.59 ERA in three postseason starts. Glavine has a pair of 2007 options on his contract with the Mets — a player option for $7.5 million, which he is expected to turn down by the Nov. 10 deadline, and a team option at $14 million, which has a Nov. 20 deadline. He also has a $2 million All-Star clause, meaning he could make $16 million next season if the team option were exercised, which isn't expected to occur. The Mets and Glavine would probably have to work a compromise between those salaries. There is a gentlemen's agreement that the Mets wouldn't unilaterally exercise their option and force him to stay if he wants to return to Atlanta. But even at, say, $10 million, the left-hander would probably be too expensive for the Braves, unless much of it were deferred.

Vic Sage Oct 23 2006 03:25 PM

Elster88 wrote: Am I the only one who thinks Zito is overrated? while he was better his first 3 full seasons than his last 3, this is a 29-year old LHP who has made no less than 34 starts and 200+ IP for the last 6 years, with an ERA a full run better than the league average during his career (ERA+ 127). He's not a total #1 ACE stud (at least not over the last 3 years), but he's certainly very good and would immediately fill OUR #1 roll. The fact that he'll likely get PAID as a total #1 Ace stud should give us pause, however, and i wouldn't go after him at ANY cost. Ditto Matsuzaka.

Farmer Ted Oct 23 2006 03:40 PM

Am I the only one who thinks this Glavine-to-Atlanta thing is a sham? Sure, he'd see his kids more often and who wouldn;'t want that? But who'd he have a better chance of getting 10 wins with? He'll be back next year. Atlanta is so 90s.

metsmarathon Oct 23 2006 03:59 PM

not that they should be at the top of the list of pitchers for next year, but what about ted lilly or mark buehrle? um, the rest of the pitching field doesnt really interest me, aside form the bigger names that are already out there.

metirish Oct 23 2006 04:02 PM

Mark Buehrle is intriqing,why have the Sox not tied him up?

TransMonk Oct 23 2006 04:22 PM

metirish wrote: Mark Buehrle is intriqing,why have the Sox not tied him up? Trachsel had a better ERA than him this year. Although, he has had much better subsequent years. Did Buehrle just have an off year, or are his best days behind him?

smg58 Oct 23 2006 04:23 PM

I'd like to know what happened to Buehrle the second half this year (his ERA was 3.22 at the end of June); he went from good to awful overnight, and so far I've heard no good reason why. I was surprised they didn't tie him up before then, but now the Sox look smart for waiting. I'm guessing they pick up the option because it's not prohibitive, but he's a question mark going into this year. There are two ways of looking at Zito: 1. He's been a good pitcher the past three seasons but not an elite one. 2. The fact that the drop in his numbers came when Peterson left for here is not a coincidence. I'm willing to bet on two, assuming the total asking prices of Zito and Matsuzaka fall into the same territory (the $70M over five years looks about right), which I think is likely. But I'll take either.

MFS62 Oct 23 2006 06:38 PM

="Edgy DC"]Not that I'm big on the expenses of this posting racket, but that would not amount to an A-Rod-sized deal. Well, this is what I based my statement on. I've read on various places: The posting fee might go as high as $30 million. Boras is his agent, so I think he'll get close to, if not more than, the $15/yr deal Scott got for Chan Ho Park. He might sign for 4 years. So, if you pro-rate $30 million over four years, that's $7.5 million per year. Add that to $15 million per year, that totals $22.5 million per. And that does not include incentives. And that is pretty close to the first years of A-Rod's contract. Later

Nymr83 Oct 23 2006 08:39 PM

i'd pass on 15 a year for 4 years even without the posting. the guy is an unknown despite his success in Japan, you can probably have Zito for less than that and money left.

heep Oct 23 2006 08:40 PM

Do not disregard Mulder. He is up for free agency as well, right? After a poor season and coming off surgery, we could sign him for a bargain. He is young, 30, prime, but also a gamble. I always like him better than Zito. Is he off the radar?

Nymr83 Oct 23 2006 08:49 PM

i'd need more info on his injury before i endorse that. Peterson did coach him for years, so if he'd be willing to work out for him, and he ok'd Mulder, i'd take his word for it that the guy is ok.

metirish Oct 23 2006 08:54 PM

Is Mulder really a FA, it seems like only a few years ago that he got traded.

ScarletKnight41 Oct 23 2006 09:19 PM

Mulder didn't work with Peterson as well as Zito and Hudson did.

Yancy Street Gang Oct 23 2006 10:17 PM

Mulder worked well with Scully.

Frayed Knot Oct 23 2006 11:25 PM

]The posting fee might go as high as $30 million. Boras is his agent, so I think he'll get close to, if not more than, the $15/yr deal Scott got for Chan Ho Park. He might sign for 4 years. The posting fee is one thing since you've got to top the other bids in order to even get in the game. But the per/year salary is something else. It's tough to figure that it'll get up to $15mil because pitcher & agent would have no way of playing one team off against another. The winning team could simply say no, get their posting fee back and move on to 'Plan B'. The only way of getting the team to up their offer is to threaten to play in Japan one more year and do it all over again next year when he'd be a true FA - but if they thought that was a better strategy then they wouldn't be trying to make the move now.

MFS62 Oct 24 2006 07:27 AM

FK, How likely do you think it would be if a team ante'd up $30 million for the rights to negotiate with him, then couldn't reach agreement (as in pay something close to his asking price) with him? If they want to flush $30 mil down the toilet, let them send it to me instead. Later

Nymr83 Oct 24 2006 08:58 AM

they get the 30 million back if they cant reah a deal, or at least thats my understanding.

Frayed Knot Oct 24 2006 09:22 AM

Nymr83 wrote: they get the 30 million back if they cant reah a deal, or at least thats my understanding. Correct.

Iubitul Oct 24 2006 09:32 AM

ScarletKnight41 wrote: Mulder didn't work with Peterson as well as Zito and Hudson did. Doesn't matter - even Mulder isn't dumb enough not to realize that his best years were with Peterson. I like Zito - I would love to see the Mets sign him, but I have this nagging little whisper in the back of my head that says it might not be the best idea...