Oct 26 2006 07:32 PM
Master Index of Archived Threads
The Knicks suck... 06-07 / part 2
| Vic Sage Oct 26 2006 12:21 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Oct 26 2006 12:53 PM |
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I couldn't find the original thread, but with the season opener next week, i thought we needed to take a look at our likely roster. 32 Renaldo Balkman F 6-8 208 7/14/84 R South Carolina [note: if any administrator can put this info into a more readable format, please do.] Starters: Francis / Marbury / Richardson / Frye / Curry Cato was a good pickup, considering their other options for a backup center. I've liked what i've seen from Balkman, Lee and Crawford. But Jeffries is out, Marbury has a bad foot, Curry is still a big fat pussy, Francis has shown nothing, Robinson and Frye are erratic, and Collins is a stiff, and the Rose brothers have nothing left. Best case scenario: 35-38 wins, no playoffs, Isiah gets canned.
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| MFS62 Oct 26 2006 12:45 PM Re: The Knicks suck... 06-07 / part 2 |
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What do you mean we, Kemo Sabe? 1) I'm a Nets' fan. 2) Its too close to lunchtime to look at that roster. Later
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| Vic Sage Oct 26 2006 12:56 PM |
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1) unless you've been rooting for them since the ABA, your not a Nets fan... your just a frustrated knicks fan. 2) its always about you, isn't it?
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| metirish Oct 26 2006 01:02 PM |
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thomas thinks he can play a Suns type offence with these Knicks,I think he knows that his team has no defence.
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| MFS62 Oct 26 2006 02:01 PM |
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Yes, I have been rooting for them since their first ABA game. Who else on this board can tell you what player holds the all time team record for points scored by a center in a regular season game? ("Big" Dan Anderson - 44 points) OK? Later
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| Vic Sage Oct 26 2006 02:06 PM |
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i don't know whether they have a defense or not, but they're surely indefensible.
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| Vic Sage Oct 26 2006 02:10 PM |
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ok
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| Centerfield Oct 26 2006 02:18 PM |
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I am hoping ther make the playoffs and Isiah wins Coach of the Year so we can stop hearing about how it wasn't Larry Brown's fault.
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| metirish Oct 26 2006 02:20 PM |
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They should at least be fun to watch,probably lose a bunch of games 130 to 115.
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| TheOldMole Oct 26 2006 03:10 PM |
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I'm a Knicks fan fom the days of Sweetwater Clifton, Vince Boryla, Carl Braun and Tricky Dick McGuire, and I find myself rooting against them this year. Let's have Isaiah and the entire current management fall flat on their faces, so we can clean house. And I was an Isaiah supporter when he took over.
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| metirish Oct 26 2006 03:16 PM |
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Yes but the Dolan will still be the owner.
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| Vic Sage Oct 26 2006 03:21 PM |
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i'll tell you one thing... a 2nd unit of Robinson / Crawford / Balkman / Lee and Frye could outrun the Suns.
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| MFS62 Oct 26 2006 03:22 PM |
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Mole, in our prior exchange about the old Knicks, we both forgot to mention Vince Boryla. Of course, he was before my time. :) Later
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| Valadius Oct 26 2006 04:07 PM |
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The spat between Isiah and Greg Anthony is extremely childish.
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| Nymr83 Oct 26 2006 05:55 PM |
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could we make that the first unit? if we're going o lose anyway i'd rather do it without the likes of Star-bury on the floor.
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| SteveJRogers Oct 26 2006 06:03 PM |
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Can we just watch highlights of the 69-75 Knicks instead? Fraizer, Reed, Bradley, DeBucheere, Barnett, Monroe, Russell, Jackson, Meminger, Lucas, ect... Sniff... WHY DID I HAVE TO BE BORN 10 YEARS TOO LATE
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| Elster88 Oct 26 2006 07:32 PM |
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| KC Oct 26 2006 07:54 PM |
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I try to get into the Knicks every year, but it dies out within a month the
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| Elster88 Oct 26 2006 09:23 PM |
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I'm considering jumping ship temporarily. Especially with a couple of Huskies playing for Brooklyn.
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| SteveJRogers Oct 26 2006 10:12 PM |
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Nov. 18th in Hartford Elster! Stags are BIGGER than Huskies... May even wager a brewskie or two
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| ABG Oct 26 2006 10:42 PM |
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Worst. Team. Ever. I hope Greg Oden ends up on the Bulls, I really do. It will really put an exclamation point on Dolan and Thomas' unfathomable tank job.
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| metsmarathon Oct 26 2006 11:48 PM |
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um... sell the team now!!!!
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| Vic Sage Oct 27 2006 04:50 PM |
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Even with this roster, I really don't think the Knicks are likely to have the worst record in the league or even, necessarily, one of the bottom 3 (which would be required for them to have a shot at Ogden). Though it is certainly possible. But here are 8 other teams that have as good a shot as the Knicks (or even a better shot) to be the worst team in the league: Boston, Philly, Altanta, Charlotte, Memphis, Golden State, Seattle, Portland
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| metirish Oct 30 2006 02:28 PM |
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Knicks waive Jalen Rose.
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| Vic Sage Oct 30 2006 02:36 PM |
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cool.
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| Valadius Oct 30 2006 04:37 PM |
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Well that helps the backcourt situation somewhat.
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| ABG Oct 30 2006 06:01 PM |
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More importantly, assures that they won't trade him for another stupid big non-expiring contract later in the season.
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| metirish Nov 01 2006 01:07 PM |
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It starts tonight in Memphis,the news on Jeffries got worse as he had surgery on his wrist...out 6 to 8 weeks.
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| Willets Point Nov 01 2006 01:20 PM |
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Gregg Jeffries is playing for the Knicks? Man, things are worse for them than I ever imagined.
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| metirish Nov 01 2006 07:29 PM |
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Creg Jeffries might as well be..
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| metirish Nov 01 2006 11:42 PM |
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Well,what a game that was...yeah it's one game but it was fun to watch and the Knicks won....
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| Nymr83 Nov 01 2006 11:44 PM |
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they led by 19 and let it go to OT... this team wouildn't know defense if it smacked them upside the head
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| metirish Nov 01 2006 11:51 PM |
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This team is not about the D..Thomas all but admitted that ,he thinks he has the Suns offence...some thoughts, Marbury and Franchise should not be on the floor together...Lee needs to play more..Crawford is the Knicks best player.
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| Vic Sage Nov 02 2006 10:50 AM |
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crawford takes more bad shots and stupid chances per square inch of court than any other player in basketball. But i like him anyway. Richardson played out of his mind. Curry played one of his best all-around games. Marbury dished and swished, like he's supposed to. Robinson is a little package of TNT. Lee continually came up big, while Frye was invisible. Maybe those two need to switch positions, at least until Jeffries gets back. And Francis is, apparently, in a coma. Grizzlies were playing their home opener. Beating a team like that in 3xOT, when 3 guys have fouled out and you had a short bench to begin with, shows a commitment that i didn't see at all last season. It was ugly, but they found a way to win. Which they wouldn't have last year. so its a step in the right direction. don't get me wrong... i don't really like this kind of basketball. I like Reed-DeBussere-Frazier basketball. I like Ewing-Oakley-Mason basketball. But this is what we have, and its better than pretending they can play defense and limiting their offensive explosiveness, as Brown did last season. I think Jeffries will have an impact on their defense, when he gets back. And a lineup of Marbury/Richardson/Jeffries/Lee/Curry, with Balkman, Crawford, Robinson and Frye coming off the bench, should be okay defensively, and still be able to run up and down the court.
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| Centerfield Nov 02 2006 11:17 AM |
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It was a better win than I can remember than having all last season.
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| Nymr83 Nov 02 2006 05:07 PM |
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a team can't expect to be good if they're "not about the D" when they have a 19 point lead, blowing leads like that is just bad basketball regardless of the type of team you have. eddy curry played suprisingly well, almost as if he was 6'11...sign of things to come or just a fluke?
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| Elster88 Nov 02 2006 06:43 PM |
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I think that it was a fluke for now. Let's see how he plays against a team with a center.
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| metirish Nov 02 2006 06:49 PM |
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yeah I shouldn't have said Crawford is the Knicks best player,he can be though, Curry looks like a guy that needs constant motivation,seems to lack desire IMO.
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| OlerudOwned Nov 02 2006 07:10 PM |
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I've never been much a fan of basketball, but I'm going to give the Knicks a shot this year. If they win, awesome. If they lose, I could be watching one of the funniest teams in history. Win-win, for me. Two observations from last night. David Lee was going nuts on the offensive (and defensive, at the very end) boards. He doesn't give up on the ball easily. Isiah coaches like he GMs, trying to hammer the square peg into the round hole. 15 seconds left in regulation, and the best play you can come up with is "Crawford holds the ball for 13 and then chucks an off balanced prayer". And then with the same situation in OT, and you do the same exact thing. Brilliant!
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| Elster88 Nov 02 2006 08:21 PM |
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Also in double OT.
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| metirish Nov 04 2006 07:16 PM |
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It will be interesting to see what kind of reception the fans give the players and coach on opening night....
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| metirish Nov 13 2006 09:09 PM |
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Jesus Christ,things are so bad these days at the Garden that the Knicks keeping it close against the Cavs is seen a a good thing...way to keep the bar low...
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| Edgy DC Nov 14 2006 10:16 AM |
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David Wright seemed to enjoy the game.
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| Vic Sage Nov 15 2006 11:16 PM |
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Knicks finally get a laugher... 20pt win over hapless Wizards at the Garden. The "all hustle squad" of Robinson, Crawford, Balkman, Rose & Lee took a 5 pt lead and turned it into a blowout. At some point, Isiah is going to have to wake up and sit Francis, Frye, Curry and Starbury longer, and give the hustle boys more minutes. The only starter earning minutes is Q-Rich, who has been playing a great all-around game so far. David Lee should be taking more minutes from Frye and Curry. And when Jeffries comes back, he and Balkman should get the minutes at Small Forward and Q should be the starting shooting guard... sayanara, Stevie Franchise.
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| metirish Nov 15 2006 11:21 PM |
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So true Vic, I like that Thomas shows that he is willing to sit guys for the backup players.....nothing like your job riding on it though.
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| Nymr83 Nov 15 2006 11:55 PM |
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i havent been watching but judging by the box scores hasnt Curry been at least passable this year?
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| Vic Sage Nov 16 2006 12:37 PM |
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Curry? please. He's had 1 great game... the rest? feh. there is a stat i've been playing with to determine comparative value of basketball players. It starts with what 1 analyst calls the "curry line". He adds assists, steals and blocks and divides it by turnovers. The Curry Line = 1:1 ratio (which is where he usually is, or below, and amongst the lowest ratio amongst starting players in the NBA). I think the metric is of limited utility because it doesn't consider scoring and rebounding, thus fails to put the other stats in any context. thats why i've expanded the stat by adding offensive rebounds to the numerator. Then, for any player that has a shooting % over 40%, i take the total ratio and add [FGM - personal fouls] (sometimes this is a negative number, usually its positive). If you do this for players who average over 20 minutes a game, you can rank the knicks in productivity this season as follows: 1) Richardson: 4.4 / 1.3 = 3.38 [+3.1] = 6.69 As you can see, this ranking passes the eyeball test, if you've been watching the games. Richardson, Lee and Robinson have been far and away the best players so far, with Marbury, Frye, Crawford and Curry distinctly 2nd tier contributors. Francis has been a disaster, by and large. Balkman and Rose haven't played enough to make a significant impact. so, while the "curry line" would've been the lowest, this adjusted stat moves him up 1 slot, just ahead of Francis and behind Curry. So no, i wouldn't say he's been passable. He turns the ball over way too much, doesn't get enough offensive rebounds, assists, blocks or steals, and while he averages a good number of baskets, he also commits way too many fouls. I hope that, when Jeffries gets back, we reduce Curry's minutes, and give Lee and/or Jeffries some minutes at Center and Power Forward, along with Frye and Rose.
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| A Boy Named Seo Nov 16 2006 01:28 PM |
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Glad to see Q looks healthy and has been playing so well. He was my favorite player on the Clipper Ships when he was here. Vic- Have you heard of [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Player_Efficiency_Rating]PER[/url]? [url=http://www.nysun.com/authors/John+Hollinger]John Hollinger[/url], the basketball writer for the NY Sun created it, and it's a pretty complicated per-minute stat that ends up in a nice, round number, with 15.0 being the league average. It looks pretty interesting and I've been thinking about picking up his book, because like Win Shares, I don't know a place where you can look at up-to-date stats for free. [url=http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics?sort=per&qual=true&pos=all&seasonType=2&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnba%2fhollinger%2fstatistics%3fsort%3dper%26qual%3dtrue%26pos%3dall%26seasonType%3d2]This year's top 5 in PER[/url] (ESPN gives you just these 5 free). Be neat to see what the Knicks (and the Clips) look like here. Yao 29.40 Career Top 5 Michael Jordan 27.91
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| Edgy DC Nov 16 2006 01:40 PM |
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I always used a crude version of PER, taking points, assists, boards, steals, blocks, and subtracting fouls, turnovers, and missed shots (both from the field and from the stripe) and dividing the total by minutes. it's crude, but it works well, as a posession (which is what a rebound, steal, or turover is) is worth about a point. Red Auerbach used something like that also. If you want to get crazy, you could subtract from a players total that of his opposite number, at least during the era when all zones were illegal (they relaxed that rule, right?), as everybody was expected to match up against somebody.
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| A Boy Named Seo Nov 16 2006 02:12 PM |
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I got a .43 for Q Richardson and a .19 for Crawford this season with the Edgy method. Sam Cassell got a .48 and Elton a .45. Does subtracting missed field goals give a bit of an advantage to big men who take more close-to-the-basket shots and tend to miss less? I know PER figures in missed shots, too, but I don't know if there's a need to adjust those numbers some way, or if adding in points does that on its own. Cool stuff, Edgy.
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| Edgy DC Nov 16 2006 02:33 PM |
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Yeah, big men have higher field goal percentages, as guards often get stuck with the ball as the clock winds down. But big men tend to get more fouls for the team, have lower free-thrown percentages, and fewer assist opportunities, perhaps even relative to their turovers. And even if the stat is prejudiced (I don't recall, as I stopped watching b-ball a while ago) toward one position or another, if you want to subtract his matchup's total, it'd generally cancel out, as players tend to matchup against the guy with the same postional disadvantage.
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| Vic Sage Nov 16 2006 03:47 PM |
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1) Richardson: 4.4 / 1.3 = 3.38 [+3.1] = 6.69 2) Lee: 5.6 / 1.1 = 5.09 [+0.1] = 5.19 3) Robinson: 3 / 1.6 = 1.87 {+2.3] = 4.17 4) Marbury: 6.3 / 2.3 = 2.74 5) Frye: 3.1 / 1.3 = 2.38 6) Crawford: 5.3 / 2.5 = 2.12 7) Curry: 3.1 / 3.1 = 1 [+1.1] = 2.10 8) Francis: 6.2 / 2.2 = 2.82 [-1.2] = 1.62
So i just don't buy the premise. In fact, under PER, Mardie Collins is the team leader with a PER of over 30. Does anybody believe he's been the most valuable contributor to the team this year? And you can't simply multiply PER by the player's average minutes, because it doesn't take into account the factors i described with David Lee. I'm not arguing that my crude non-mathematically derived stat is better, but of the 8 guys i ranked, the only real discrepency from the PER rankings were with Francis and Frye. And i defy anybody whose actually watched the games to suggest that either of them has played worth a damn so far this year. But the fact is Frye has played every game, and Francis missed a few with a sprained ankle. So, like Collins, his numbers are skewed by false projections instead of actual production. I like Edgy's formula better, but again, by dividing it by min/gm, you get a "per minute" rating that simply doesn't describe the difference between guys who play alot of minutes and guys that don't. You might end up again with a rating that had Collins the team leader, despite the fact that he hardly plays and has contributed very little so far.
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| Vic Sage Nov 17 2006 11:36 AM |
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Here is how they rank so far, under Edgy's modified PER formula: D.Lee = 5.13 That looks approximately right to me, so far this season. Again, i think it slightly overvalues the guys who are productive playing around 25 min/gmi and undervalues the guys who are playing close to 40 minutes a night, but its still a good snap shot. Q and Lee are far and away the best players so far, with Robinson making a good contribution. Everybody else has provided varying degrees of suck.
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| Edgy DC Nov 17 2006 12:13 PM |
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Are you multiplying by ten? I tended to get numbers under one. Michael Jordan for his career: Pts 32292 EER = [ ( Pts + Ass + Reb + Stl + Blk ) - ( PF + TO + MFG + MFT ) ] / Min
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| Vic Sage Nov 17 2006 02:37 PM |
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i divided the totals by avg minutes/game, not by total minutes. So, the number is sort of a "net positive contribution per game" rather than "per minute".
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| metirish Nov 20 2006 07:53 PM |
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Damn but Patrick Ewing got fat...looks like his head will explode...
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| metirish Nov 24 2006 09:20 PM |
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The Knicks might be hard to watch but David Lee is a joy to watch.
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| ABG Nov 26 2006 10:26 AM |
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Channing Frye now out 3-6 weeks. Ha.
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| Vic Sage Nov 27 2006 02:02 PM |
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Richardson is hurt, too. So it looks like more Lee and Balkman, which is undoubtedly a good thing. Oh, and Starbury is finding it difficult to shoot with his head firmly up his own ass. I guess that Isiah-Stephon lovefest only took those two 2nd half benchings to end up in divorce court.
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| Vic Sage Nov 29 2006 12:45 PM |
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i'm not sure if the Knicks are worse when Stephon shoots or when he doesn't. Right now, it doesn't seem to matter much, one way or the other.
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| metirish Nov 29 2006 12:49 PM |
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It's incredible really...Starbury seems confused as to what he's supposed to do,when do you think it all started going wrong,when Checketts quit,Van Gundy quit or when Dolan assumed he could run things?
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| Vic Sage Nov 30 2006 03:54 PM |
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The Knick decline began when they traded Ewing and took on big useless contracts, instead of just letting him play out the last year of his deal. It has been 1 bad deal on top of another ever since. And that was Checketts' call, i think. Current Knicks rankings based on the VS "plus/minus" formula: [PTs + REBs + ASSTs + STLs + BLKs] - [TOs + FOULs+misses] / [AVG MIN/Gm] x [# GMs] = Total +/- to date 1) D. Lee = 162.03 3) J. Crawford = 84.94 8) S. Marbury = 54.16 bench: Amongst the regulars, David Lee has been, far and away, the best player so far this year (with Q-Rich playing pretty well, too), and Marbury and Frye the worst.
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| KC Dec 06 2006 10:09 PM |
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I give up, I hate the Knicks ... my inner Knicks child has died tonight ... Hard times got me down
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| metirish Dec 06 2006 10:43 PM |
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I'm done with them aswell...just terrible to watch....if not for David Lee there would be zero reaosn to tune in.....and MSG fucking sucks..they seem to find a silver lining in every loss..and Kenny Smith is an asshole....Breen must hate doing games with him...
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| Nymr83 Dec 06 2006 11:59 PM |
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if you two said that kinda stuff about the Mets you'd be tarred and feathered! [/end bret imitation]
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| KC Dec 07 2006 09:05 AM |
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Bret obsessed, you are [/end (bad) Yoda imitation] You want his cellie?
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| Vic Sage Dec 07 2006 12:03 PM |
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to top it off, i read in today's NYPost that, when Jeffries and Frye come back, Isiah will send LEE to the bench!!! WHY? Because he's the only one who won't bitch too much about it! Well, that's the very reason he should START... because of his team-first attitude, hustle, boardwork, and inside scoring. By any measure, Lee has been the best player on the team so far this season. Frye hasn't done shit, and Jeffries will take a while to get into the flow. When Jeffries comes back, he should split time off the bench with Balkman until he establishes himself as a starter. Meanwhile, Q should be starting at 2 guard, with either Francis or Marbury going to the bench. Based on recent play, Francis has shown a much better all-around game and Marbury has been shit. But of course Isiah doesn't have the balls to do this. He's going to kiss Starbury's ass, and he's afraid of losing Francis if he sends him to the bench, so we can't field the best possible team. IF you were to construct the starting unit and 2nd team based on complimentary styles and reward those who work hard and play defense (as we should), then you'd get: *1st team: Francis / Q-Rich / Balkman / Lee / Curry *2nd team/bench/DL: Marbury (Robinson) / Crawford (Collins) / Jeffries (Rose) / Frye (Rose) / James (Kato)
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| metirish Dec 07 2006 12:44 PM |
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Yep,Lee to the bench,Thomas can expect to hear more"fire Thomas" chants when the fan fave is sitting and not starting,the Knicks are one win better than this time last season...
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| Edgy DC Dec 07 2006 01:40 PM |
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Gilbert Arenas may actually succeed in getting me to pay attention to the NBA for the first time in ten or fifteen years. The guy is trip.
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| metirish Dec 08 2006 09:32 AM |
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Steve Francis out indefinitely with knee tendinitis ....
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| Vic Sage Dec 08 2006 10:40 AM |
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well that solves David Lee's problem, then.
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| Nymr83 Dec 08 2006 10:48 AM |
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Woohoo! (he hasn't actually looked terrible in the few games i've watched, I'd rather it was Marbury out)
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| Vic Sage Dec 08 2006 11:27 AM |
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name = AVG +/- per gm** Lee = 11.51 Richardson = 7.42 Balkman = 5.97 Frye* = 3.29 J. James = 0 *DL **([PTs + REBs + ASSTs + STLs + BLKs] - [TOs + FOULs+missed shots]) / AVG MIN/Gm The downside of Francis' injury is that the numbers indicate we've just lost our best point guard. But at least now, when Jeffries returns, Zeke won't necessarily put Lee, far and away our best player this year, on the bench. 1 = Marbury / Richardson / Jeffries / Lee / Curry
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| metirish Dec 10 2006 07:31 PM |
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From ESPN.com....
You just know Thomas would make that deal..
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| metirish Dec 11 2006 09:59 PM |
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David Stern today said that the NBA would go back to the leather ball on Jan 1st....
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| Rockin' Doc Dec 11 2006 11:30 PM |
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Unfortunately,the Knicks will still suck.
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| Nymr83 Dec 12 2006 12:18 AM |
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The Knicks wouldn't make that trade unless they (the Knicks) threw in some draft picks, or maybe David Lee. They wouldn't want to have even the appearance of competence.
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| metirish Dec 12 2006 08:17 AM |
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Did anyone catch Paul Pierce diving for a loose ball during the game and landing on the foot of Manchester Uniteds Wayne Rooney,a scary moment right there.
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| Vic Sage Dec 14 2006 09:49 AM |
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Jeffries had the impact on the Knicks that Isiah predicted. A disruptive force on defense, fighting under the boards on offense, getting garbage points. Took a blow to the chin, got stitched up, came back out. I like this guy. that being said, why on earth is David Lee the one to take the hit? He's only been the most productive all-around player on the team, even including Curry's scoring streak. Last night he only played 20 minutes (8pts/7reb), while notorious chucker Crawford played 32 minutes. I don't understand it. At this point, a starting lineup of Marbury / Richardson / Jeffries / Lee / Curry is the best we have. You can still bring a young, aggressive unit of Crawford / Robinson / Balkman / Frye (when he's back) / James (if necessary) off the bench, with Rose and Collins on the bench, and Francis and Cato on the DL.
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| Centerfield Dec 16 2006 11:23 PM |
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Well, that was interesting.
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| ScarletKnight41 Dec 16 2006 11:24 PM |
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Fugly is a better description.
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| Nymr83 Dec 17 2006 02:16 AM |
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what a bunch of fuckin clowns, they get paid millions of dollars and they can't even act like adults while doing their job. kids at the schoolyard can get blown out without starting a fight over it, why can't the knicks?
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| Vic Sage Dec 17 2006 04:47 PM |
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its Robinson. He's got more schoolyard bullshit in him per square inch than any player in the league. He's arrogant, selfish, and stupid, which is not the ideal combination of characteristics you want to see in a point guard... or anybody on your team, for that matter. They need to move him in the off-season... his talent is undeniable but he's a major a-hole and a bad element to have on a team.
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| MFS62 Dec 18 2006 08:52 AM |
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Reports are beginning to surface (ESPN Radio this morning) that Isiah may have told his players to start the fight. Later
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| KC Dec 18 2006 09:08 AM |
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Are you serious?
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| MFS62 Dec 18 2006 09:13 AM |
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Yes. They mentioned that Isiah warned one player (forget his name, but he was the guy who threw the punch - Anthony?)"don't go into the paint" toward the end of the blow-out; just before the fight started. And the player has reported that to league officials. Later
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| Rockin' Doc Dec 18 2006 11:16 AM |
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I read reports last night that Isiah had, towards the end of the game, told Carmelo Anthony something to the effect that it would be best for him to stay out of the paint area. The implication in the article was that Isiah had directed his team to give a hard foul. And those Temple guys really know how to do flagrant fouls. I'll see if I can find the article I was reading last night.
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| Rockin' Doc Dec 18 2006 11:29 AM |
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I couldn't find the actual article I was reading last night, but this article touches on Thomas' possible involvement. I'm sure sportswriters are editorializing and and their own takes as to intent. it will be interesting to see what the league decides. There will likely be some serious game suspensions and fines handed out for the players involved. I think Carmello really looks bad by taking a swing at a restrained player, then immediately running away when a Knick (Jeffries) tries to defend his teammate.
BY ALAN HAHN
With the image-conscious league extremely sensitive to how this incident is bringing back memories of the ugly brawl that involved fans at The Palace of Auburn Hills on Nov. 19, 2004, it is expected that Jackson will dole out some heavy punishment. "We will review the incident in its entirety," NBA spokesman Tim Frank said. "Until then, it would not be appropriate to comment. We do not have a timetable on when the decision will be reached." The Knicks (9-17) host the Utah Jazz tonight at Madison Square Garden. They did not practice Sunday and neither coach Isiah Thomas nor any of the players were made available to the media. The most prominent player involved in the brawl was Nuggets forward Carmelo Anthony, the NBA's leading scorer and one of the game's top young stars, who sucker-punched Knicks rookie Mardy Collins during the fracas. Anthony issued a statement last night apologizing for his actions in the fight. "In the heat of the moment, I let my emotions get the best of me," he said in the statement. "My actions were inexcusable and I am sorry for making this an even more embarrassing situation." The statement also said, "This is not the example I want to set. It's my hope that we work to move forward from this event and never let something like this happen again." Collins, who started the incident with his flagrant foul on Nuggets guard J.R. Smith, and Nate Robinson, who played an instigator role in the brawl, are expected to be disciplined by the league. But the most prominent member of the Knicks under scrutiny is Thomas. He may not have been involved in the fracas, which took place with 1:15 left in Denver's 123-100 win, but his actions before the fight raised serious questions. Thomas asked Anthony why he still was in the game with the Nuggets ahead by 17 with 1:32 left. According to a report in the Denver Post, a Nuggets source said Anthony told Thomas, "We need this one." Denver (13-9) had lost consecutive games entering the Knicks game. On video replay, Thomas can be seen warning Anthony, "Don't go to the hole." It suggests that Thomas had premeditated a hard foul, but it does need to be pointed out that it wasn't as if he had his heavy hitters -- such as Kelvin Cato or Jerome James -- on the court. Collins, who was charged with a flagrant foul on Maceo Baston in Friday's loss in Indiana, was the only true bench player in the game. But in his postgame address, Thomas continually deflected the blame onto Nuggets coach George Karl, who had five players on the floor -- Anthony, Smith, Marcus Camby, Andre Miller and Eduardo Najera -- who have started the most games for the Nuggets this season. Karl inserted Najera for backup guard Earl Boykins with 2:52 left. "We had surrendered," Thomas said. "Those guys shouldn't have been in the game at that point in time." Though he did have reserves Yakhouba Diawara, Reggie Evans and Linas Kleiza at the scorer's table just before the fight took place, there's little doubt that Karl, a Larry Brown loyalist, wanted to ensure that the Nuggets won big on the Garden floor. Was he trying to show up Thomas? It was Karl last summer who criticized the Knicks for how the Brown situation was so bizarrely handled. "A good organization helps their coach through it instead of taking a confrontational position," Karl said during the Orlando pre-draft camp in June. Thomas then confronted Karl at the Las Vegas summer league in July. "I just made the point that he should talk about his own team and quit talking about ours," Thomas said in early November. "I don't talk about the Denver Nuggets and he shouldn't talk about the New York Knicks." A little over a month later, Tho.mas was talking about the Denver Nuggets. And it's not the first time this season that he has gone against his own advice. After Steve Francis suffered an ankle sprain when he took a jump shot and landed on the foot of the Spurs' Bruce Bowen, who had extended his foot under Francis, Thomas was asked what he would do if a player did that to him. "I'd beat the -- -- out of somebody," Thomas said Nov. 10. The next night, the Knicks played the Spurs in San Antonio, and when Bowen got his foot under Jamal Crawford during a jump shot, Thomas started screaming, "Next time he does that, break his -- -- foot!" Thomas then got into a verbal altercation with Bowen, and Spurs coach Gregg Popovich -- another good friend of Brown's, by the way -- charged to midcourt, yelling at Thomas, "Don't talk to my players!"
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| Edgy DC Dec 18 2006 11:48 AM |
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Wowwhatamess.
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| Rockin' Doc Dec 18 2006 12:56 PM |
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Edgy - "Wowwhatamess." That pretty much describes what has happened to the once proud Knicks organization.
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| Frayed Knot Dec 18 2006 01:57 PM |
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Well, No suspension for Isiah - I guess it's hard to discipline some remark based on hear-say or lip-reading.
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| Willets Point Dec 18 2006 08:24 PM |
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The Nation agrees.
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| Nymr83 Dec 18 2006 10:07 PM |
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I'm glad the suspensions came down hard and fast, the league needs a zero-tolerance policy for fights.
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| Frayed Knot Dec 18 2006 10:11 PM |
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Just for basketball or should MLB suspend guys for 20% of the season everytime someone charges the mound?
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| Nymr83 Dec 18 2006 10:18 PM |
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moves towards the mound? no
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| Frayed Knot Dec 18 2006 11:44 PM |
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I'm not advocating on-field fights, it just doesn't seem to me that such draconian penalties are neccesary in order to fix a "problem" that's not getting any worse (in baseball or in basketball). I was flipping through my copy of 'The Bad Guys Won' the other day trying to find something, and in skimming around I came across the descriptions of two of that team's fights; Ray Knight v Tom Niedenfuerer, and Bill Robinson v Rick Rhoden. In both cases the combatants were dinner partners the next day having put all the bad blood behind them in less than 24 hours. Giving them 15, 20, or maybe 30 game (the equivelent of what Carmelo got) suspensions as soon as the first hand is raised seems to be curing dandruff by decapitation.
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| Edgy DC Dec 18 2006 11:53 PM |
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Since the batter is always the aggressor in a mound-charging brawl, and since the pitcher can always plausibly claim innoncence in the pitch that provoked the batter, such automatic penalties would put batters under far less protection.
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| Nymr83 Dec 19 2006 12:46 AM |
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and the guy who committed the hardfoul can always "plausibly claim innocence" in the NBA too, who cares. you throw a punch you get a long suspension, simple as that. fighting should never be "part of the game." if any of you walked up to a co-worker and threw a punch at them you'd be fired.
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| Edgy DC Dec 19 2006 12:52 AM Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Dec 19 2006 10:13 AM |
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Now you know I didn't say any of that "part of the game" nonsense and there it is in quotes. There are plenty of hard fouls that are incriminating in ways that hit batsmen are not. I'd like to start by imitating the NBA standard by instituting a mandatory suspension of any player not in the game who leaves the bench.
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| Frayed Knot Dec 19 2006 10:03 AM |
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And no one is suggesting it should be. - Before: I heard about this fight before I saw it and by the time I did see it I was like; THAT'S what all the hand-wringing is about?!?!'. I had been led to believe that this was particularly ugly & violent and yet I've seen women in shopping malls fighting over sale items that looked more dangerous. - After: That public opinion seemed to be fully expecting 15 or so game suspensions including many who thought Stern u.timately went easy on these guys. Now personally I wouldn't care if half the NBA disappeared tomorrow, but what I did was trasnsfer this to how I'd feel if a hard slide at 3rd base turned into a punch or two plus some rolling around in the dirt. Would I think that warranted 1/5 of the season suspensions (and nearly 1/3 of the remaining season)? ... and my answer is no, not even close. So is there a difference in the two sports as far as whether there's been a recent escalation of on-court fights to the pont where these measures are needed to stem some sort of rising tide? ... I just don't see it. Hard fouls and tussles (even punches) are nothing new to the NBA nor are they unique to today's "hip-hop culture". But it is that culture that Stern and much of the media seem concerned about which provoked them (IMHO) to over-reacting here.
This nation often agrees with me. That's why I was named Time Magazines 'Man of the Year'
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| Vic Sage Dec 19 2006 12:42 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Dec 21 2006 03:10 PM |
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since the game began, coaches have been telling their players to show some pride, to stick up for themselves, to defend the paint, etc, etc, etc... ie, the next guy who goes to the hole should be put on his ass. Isiah watched Smith go in for a showboat dunk with a 20 point lead, realized that Brown's buddy George Karl was trying to rub his nose in it, and so told his players some version of the above. That he smilingly warned Anthony that it would come if he tried to get fancy again he'd be going down was not and should not be a suspendable action. collins made a flagrant foul but he didn't low bridge Smith. He didn't hurl him to the ground. He slapped down on his arms. It wasn't an action designed to injure, just to prevent a layup. I have no problem with it being called a flagrant, worthy of ejection. And i have no problem with Smith popping up and getting in Collins' face. But it was Robinson, the "third man in", who escalated it into a pushing swinging brawl that landed them in the third row. A fight that ends up in the stands should end in suspensions. Then, Anthony's cheap shot-and-run act stepped it up again, also deserving of serious suspension. Jeffries? He chased but did not hit anybody. I don't think it warranted a 4-game suspension. And Collins did not hit anybody or go after anybody. He committed a flagrant foul. 6 games? It wasn't his fault it escalated. personally, i'd have recommended: Collins - 5 games at any rate, teamwide baseball brawls are no more common than basketball brawls, so the lack of a "zero tolerance" approach hasn't really been a factor in prevention.
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| Edgy DC Dec 19 2006 01:03 PM |
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Side question on Anthony: what do you do when you land a blow, and immediately realize you've over-reacted? You can't follow up with more blows, but you know he's coming back at you with all he's got. I've done this once or twice. Seems you either run away or cover up like a turtle.
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| Centerfield Dec 19 2006 02:45 PM |
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When you consider that Jermaine O'Neal's suspension for punching a fan was ultimately 15 games, it doesn't make any sense that Carmelo should have to serve the same amount for punching a fellow player.
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| Vic Sage Dec 19 2006 05:06 PM |
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if he'd have punched Robinson, i would've been fine with a suspended sentence.
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| KC Dec 20 2006 10:42 PM |
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Lee says, "what Trent Tucker rule?" Not that I was watching the end of the Knicks game.
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| Vic Sage Dec 21 2006 03:10 PM |
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back-to-back OT victories. Lee is my man. game in and game out, he does something to help this team win.
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| Vic Sage Dec 22 2006 11:10 PM |
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3 in a row. Frye finally playing well. 8 man rotation is the way to go, i guess.
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| Vic Sage Dec 23 2006 11:07 PM |
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see what happened?
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| Vic Sage Dec 27 2006 11:44 PM |
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a 3-OT 151-145 win against the Pistons! Marbury scores 41, Curry 33, Frye and crawford hit big shots, Lee gets his usual double-double, and Balkman, Jeffries, Francis contribute off the bench. Good way to end a home stand.
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| OlerudOwned Dec 28 2006 02:02 AM |
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I don't mind half as much when a team sucks if they play with the intensity of this bunch.
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| soupcan Jan 12 2007 10:40 AM |
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Friend of mine just sent me this email - thought you guys might enjoy it -
Knowing my friend this story is highly exaggerated but funny nonetheless.
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| metirish Jan 12 2007 10:44 AM |
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I wonder if it's even half true,I remember a similar story posted here last year..
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| soupcan Jan 12 2007 10:54 AM |
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That may be so but this guy is one of my best friends for at least the past 20 years. I doubt he'd make that up or read it somewhere and pass it off as his own.
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| metirish Jan 12 2007 10:57 AM |
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Sorry,I should not have implied that,of course he knew going in that the old woman was going to win,they always get the biggest cheer...
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| soupcan Jan 12 2007 11:06 AM |
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No apology necessary.
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| Edgy DC Jan 12 2007 11:06 AM |
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Hockey uses to the crowd pleasing archetypes, but never does that, knowing that age and infirmity trumps all, they realize the fans need a little competition. If there's a between-periods shooting contest, five'll get you ten that the three contestants will be 1) The moppet. Every time.
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| cooby Jan 12 2007 10:45 PM |
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I;ve heard it before, too.
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| soupcan Jan 12 2007 11:05 PM |
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Stop piling on, troublemaker.
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| Willets Point Jan 12 2007 11:34 PM |
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But that describes the entire NHL fanbase!
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| cooby Jan 13 2007 09:09 AM |
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I swear, while I was reading that, that I was thinking it sounded famililiar, even before someone else said it. I was thinking (as I lay there awake, as usual) maybe this is some kind of scam and the little old lady (60? How old is your friend? 18?) is an employee of the company giving away the prize and knowing crowds, they always vote for the lameass contestent out of sympathy. And the concept is making its rounds and your friend was the sap this time.
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| KC Jan 19 2007 10:10 PM |
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Jeez, back to back hearbreakers ... not that I'm watching or anything.
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| Frayed Knot Jan 19 2007 10:43 PM |
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Basketball games would be a lot more interesting to me if there weren't so many time-outs at the end; the total lack of moentum is a turn-off. Continuous action is almost always prefereable to not; it's the one thing soccer gets right.
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| MFS62 Jan 20 2007 07:34 AM |
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If the Knicks and Nets were the only two teams in the Atlantic Division and the Nets won it, the NY papers would treat them as though the Knicks finished second and the Nets finished next-to-last. Later
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| KC Jan 20 2007 09:24 AM |
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Some franchises are just like that, the Knicks haven't done bupkis in years It will be interesting how much the move to Brooklyn will improve their popularity.
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| Nymr83 Jan 20 2007 05:49 PM |
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The Jets get that same kind of 2nd class treatment in the papers, much worse than anything the Mets could ever complain about.
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| MFS62 Jan 20 2007 06:25 PM |
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Icelanders? I once called in when his show was "The Sweater and the Schmoozer" and told him I had an answer to that theoretical, metaphysical question. I told him, "Yes, the goal happened. The image of the goal is captured forever in those four consecutive Stanley Cup Championship banners that are hanging from the rafters - sort of a Shroud of Turin thing." I heard the sound of a toilet flushing and then was cut off.
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| Vic Sage Jan 22 2007 01:07 PM |
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NY KNICKS 2006-2007 NAME = NP/PG* / NP/P48** NP = Net Productivity * NP/PG = Net productivity / games
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| Frayed Knot Jan 22 2007 11:28 PM |
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Knicks got outscored 27-0 at one point in tonight's game vs Miami ... who were playing w/o Shaq & Wade. 27 to zip. I wouldn't have thought that was possible.
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| ScarletKnight41 Jan 26 2007 07:44 PM |
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A former co-worker of D-Dad's gave him primo tix to tonight's game. I decided to pass on the game, so D-Dad is there with MK. I'll see whether I can catch a glimpse of them on tv. I told MK to stay away from the Knicks City Dancers - you don't know where they've been!
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| KC Jan 26 2007 08:45 PM |
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Good first half for MK, nice for him to see Shaq and Wade up close too.
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| ScarletKnight41 Jan 26 2007 08:54 PM |
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It should be. Especially since it's the kid's first visit to MSG.
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| KC Jan 26 2007 09:46 PM |
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Never mind Shaq and Wade ... JAMAL!!!
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| ScarletKnight41 Jan 26 2007 10:06 PM |
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D-Dad called from Penn Station. I told him to tell his friend that MK is the Knicks' new good luck charm ;)
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| Willets Point Feb 12 2007 12:11 PM |
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The Knicks may suck but the Celtics are redefining suck.
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| Frayed Knot Feb 15 2007 09:50 AM |
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Well, they may still suck but they've already matched their win total for all of last season with still ~ 30 games to go. Sure it's a dubious achievement but it's good for something I suppose. Mostly what it's probably good for - or, bad for, depending on your view - is that Isiah retains his job for at least another season.
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| Edgy DC Feb 15 2007 10:10 AM |
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That's what I'm saying. Riley picks the spots that can expand his legacy. So does Jackson to a lesser extent. Larry Brown, whatever his sins, doesn't decide if he's in or out depending on the cards he's been dealt.
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| Willets Point Feb 15 2007 11:31 AM |
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? The Celts are 20 games behind last years win total? Or are you talking about the Knicks?
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| Frayed Knot Feb 15 2007 02:07 PM |
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I was referring back to the topic of the thread and talking 'bout the Knicks - hence the comments about Isiah.
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| Vic Sage Feb 16 2007 01:02 PM |
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NY KNICKS 2006-2007 At the ALL-STAR break: NAME = NPPG* / NPP48** NP = Net Productivity * NP/PG = Net productivity per game (NP / Games)
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| Vic Sage Feb 28 2007 10:19 AM |
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and just when the Knicks were inching themselves into the playoff picture, down goes Clutch Crawford with a broken ankle. And will even this force Isiah to give the underutilized Balkman more minutes? Nooooooooo! He's going to let Jared "the big joke" Jeffries start, and give more minutes to Nate "ain't great" Robertson and Tom Collins. And he's STILL going to have his best player, David "Bruce" Lee, come off the bench, so he can give Jumbo James 5 minutes at the beginning of every game. Isiah has an eye for drafting talent, but, apparently, not so great for actually USING it.
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| KC Feb 28 2007 11:42 AM |
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When I read the ankle thing yesterday, my first thought was, "good, now they
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| metirish Feb 28 2007 11:44 AM |
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I think they do but it goes to Chicago...
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| abogdan Feb 28 2007 12:23 PM |
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Chicago has the option of swapping first rounders with the Knicks this year. So they do have a pick, but they will in all likelihood draft in Chicago's slot. Edit: Unless, of course, the Knicks pick is later than #24. Then the pick goes outright to Utah and Chicago loses its right to swap picks.
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| Nymr83 Feb 28 2007 12:59 PM |
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unfortunately, the knicks were improved enough that CoachClown won't get fired, but who am i kidding, the only real hope for this franchise is a change in ownership.
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| Vic Sage Feb 28 2007 03:20 PM |
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In that case, the best scenario was for the Knicks to make the playoffs, thereby ensuring that their draft pick is only a mid-1st rounder, instead of a possible lottery pick. This would diminish the cost of swapping picks with Chicago, making the price paid for Curry a little more reasonable. Also, they'd need to lose in the early rounds of the playoffs to avoid having a pick later than #24, so they don't have to surrender it to Utah. This scenario was quite possible until Crawford went "snap". Now we're going to drop down from a top-10 pick to a last-10 pick.
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| KC Mar 12 2007 01:14 PM |
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Thomas re-upped ... http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2007/03/12/ap3507865.html
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| KC Mar 12 2007 01:15 PM |
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Thomas re-upped ... http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2007/03/12/ap3507865.html
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| Nymr83 Mar 12 2007 03:35 PM |
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i don't think he did anything to deserve a multi-year extension. the knicks "improvement" this year can easily be chalked up to regression to the mean after a terrible year.
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| metirish Mar 12 2007 03:43 PM |
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Dolan is a fool,the conference is terrible so "improvment" means that a team well under .500 can be seen as better and going in the right direction,Thomas stays on as GM/President because if Dolan took away those duties then he would be admitting a mistake by himself,and that is a no no.
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| Nymr83 Mar 12 2007 04:18 PM |
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there is no hope in sight for the knicks, fortunately opening day is right around the corner, making the knicks irrelevant until after next football season ends!
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| OlerudOwned Mar 12 2007 08:56 PM |
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Isiah's been great for this team as a coach, I'll give him that, but he's still a clown in the front office. For every David Lee draft pick there's 2 or 3 Jerome James contracts.
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| metirish Mar 27 2007 02:59 PM |
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Nate Robinson is a pain in the arse and should be traded,trying to take Howard to the basket last night with ten seconds left and the Knicks down by three was one of many mistakes he makes nightly ,Thomas seems to indulge him though,or maybe he has no choice with the injuries.
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| Vic Sage Apr 23 2007 06:36 PM |
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Team MVP: David Lee - he did more things each game to help Knicks win than any other player on the roster, His injury destroyed season. If he gets traded, I'll find Isiah and kill him. Most Improved Player: Eddie Curry - he still needs to get more rebounds, block more shots, play better defense and commit less turnovers and dumb fouls to be a great player. But he did become a consistent low-post threat this season. "Please Sir, I Want Some More" Award: Renaldo Balkman - Knicks need more of Blkman's energy, defense, rebounding and finish around the basket. He must take better care of the ball and commit fewer dumb fouls. A medium range jumper would be nice, too. "Mojo Risin'" Award: Mardie Collins - Mr. Collins could develop into a "triple double"-type point guard. Needs to take better care of the ball. Good Citizenship Award: Stephon Marbury - Not only did he improve his on-court chemistry with his team, he is marketing a $15 sneaker in an attempt to curtail urban violence related to theft of high-end sneakers. The "Zippity Doo Dah Going South" Award: Channing Frye - What the hell happened? Last season, he showed real promise. He took a huge step back this year. His value is too low to trade this off-season. Lets see if he can bounce back. As for the rest of the roster: "Mr. Wizard": Jamal Crawford - The chemistry between Curry and Crawford made both of them greater than the sum of their parts. An erratic shooter, he often rises to the ocasion with the game on the line. I'd like to keep him. "Mr. Bench": Malik Rose - He supplied good clubhouse leadership off the bench, and produced when asked. He makes too much to trade, so we might as well use him. The "Crazy Diamond": Nate Robinson - he plays out of control. Talented, but hurts as much as helps. Trade bait, and good riddance. The "Big Dog": Steve Francis - his injuries seemed to come and go, based on how much playing time he thought he was going to get. I want him gone so bad, my teeth ache. The M*A*S*Hed Man: Quentin Richardson - A solid 2-way player when healthy, but he's rarely healthy. The Mid-level Bombers: Jeffries and James - I'd trade both for a bag of balls. Also: Cato, Inspector Clouseau's sidekick, is a nice man and should retire now. And Mercury Morris is a project... an athletic big man, he's like a free 2nd round pick. Lets stick with him and see if he develops. Final stats: Net Points* /per game: * NP = (points + rebounds + assists + steals + blocks) - (missed FGs + missed FTs + turnovers + fouls) Lee = 14.17
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| Rockin' Doc Apr 24 2007 02:14 PM |
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*
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| Willets Point Apr 24 2007 02:32 PM |
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I was wondering what anyone could be saying or how this thread could even be active well into baseball season. * about sums it up.
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