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Trouble with Team Names, split from World Series IGT

cooby Oct 31 2006 11:34 PM

What does Brady Quinn have to do with it? He's still a little busy.

SteveJRogers Oct 31 2006 11:38 PM

cooby wrote: What does Brady Quinn have to do with it? He's still a little busy. Projected # 1 pick (yeah this is some 8 months and an entire college football season before the draft and all, but this is the media we're talking about) and the Jets were getting anywhere from 1 to 5 wins in most pre-season prognostications. Good for a top 5 draft pick which is right around Quinn should go next spring.

cooby Oct 31 2006 11:43 PM

Yeah, I'm right with ya in thinking he's probably going #1 or close to it, but I don't understand your mentioning him in your Pats/Jets comment. I guess I'm just not following your thoughts there.

cooby Oct 31 2006 11:44 PM

Wait, yeah I think I do

metirish Oct 31 2006 11:47 PM

Quinn is not even close to the # 1 pick...at least from what I read...GO IRISH..what a load of bollox..it's insulting. As a person from Ireland I find the whole ND thing insulting to my culture...I want nothing to do with it...

cooby Nov 01 2006 08:22 AM

ND-well me either, I just happened to take note of them this year.

Nymr83 Nov 02 2006 10:51 PM

metirish wrote: Quinn is not even close to the # 1 pick...at least from what I read...GO IRISH..what a load of bollox..it's insulting. As a person from Ireland I find the whole ND thing insulting to my culture...I want nothing to do with it... why does nobody seem to like sports teams named after their race/religion/nationality? if a college teams decided to call themselves the jews i'd wear their jersey and love it. we need a sports team.

metirish Nov 02 2006 11:02 PM

] why does nobody seem to like sports teams named after their race/religion/nationality? if a college teams decided to call themselves the jews i'd wear their jersey and love it. we need a sports team. You think any of those players or most of the fans know anything about Ireland, I doubt it....and the stupid fool that gets dressed up as a supposed leprechaun is especially insulting to me, ND is not Glasgow Celtic, at least they can say they have a true Irish fan base and that they don't pander to silly sterotypes.

Elster88 Nov 02 2006 11:46 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Nov 04 2006 09:08 AM

metirish wrote: ] why does nobody seem to like sports teams named after their race/religion/nationality? if a college teams decided to call themselves the jews i'd wear their jersey and love it. we need a sports team. You think any of those players or most of the fans know anything about Ireland, I doubt it....and the stupid fool that gets dressed up as a supposed leprechaun is especially insulting to me, ND is not Glasgow Celtic, at least they can say they have a true Irish fan base and that they don't pander to silly sterotypes. Do the Boston Celtics also bother you?

Edgy DC Nov 02 2006 11:55 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Nov 03 2006 02:25 PM

I'm with him. It's stupid, and the brand's effect on the ethnic self-identity of countless confused Irish Americans is pathetic.

Willets Point Nov 03 2006 09:19 AM

Nymr83 wrote: why does nobody seem to like sports teams named after their race/religion/nationality? if a college teams decided to call themselves the jews i'd wear their jersey and love it. we need a sports team. Have I got the team for you: Tottenham Hotspur.

cooby Nov 03 2006 09:21 AM

Minnesota Lutherans would be cool with me

Willets Point Nov 03 2006 09:24 AM

As a New Englander I'm offended that a group of unworthies took the name Yankees.

Johnny Dickshot Nov 03 2006 09:26 AM

Redskins is just awful. Indians, theough they meant well to honor Louis Soxalexis (sp.) ought to return themselves to the Cleveland Spiders, as they were known in the 19th century, if not to appease potential offendees, but for the enormous amount of cool marketing and uni $elling they could do around that name. Chiefs and Braves are probably more OK.

Yancy Street Gang Nov 03 2006 09:28 AM

I've had that same opinion for a while about the Cleveland Spiders, Johnny. A very cool name, and it could be marketed a lot better than "Indians" can. The Atlanta team probably shouldn't revert to their historical minor league name, though. Unless they get a sponsorship from Wheat Thins, I don't think "Crackers" would go over well.

seawolf17 Nov 03 2006 09:34 AM

Problem is, aren't the Cleveland Spiders mostly associated with losing something like 247 games in a single season? Not a happy connotation.

Yancy Street Gang Nov 03 2006 09:39 AM

The Indians have done their share of losing, too. I don't think anyone born in the 1990's would hesitate to buy a cool cap or jersey because of the record of a team that played in the 19th Century.

cooby Nov 03 2006 09:41 AM

seawolf17 wrote: Problem is, aren't the Cleveland Spiders mostly associated with losing something like 247 games in a single season? Not a happy connotation. 247? No wonder, they must have been tired!

Johnny Dickshot Nov 03 2006 09:47 AM

The Spiders were actually a pretty good team but were undermined when syndicate ownership transferred all their good players, including Cy Young, to St. Louis prior to the 1899 season, resulting in that one horrendous year.

Edgy DC Nov 03 2006 10:06 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Nov 03 2006 02:39 PM

We have to look at this with some degree of nuance. There's a difference between calling a team after a local tribe and calling them Redskins There's a difference between "Irish" and "Fighting Irish" and there's a difference between "Fighting Illini" and "Fighting Irish" and there's a difference betewen "Irish" and "Leprechaun." This all began with an inability to make distinctions, as the University was founded by a French order, not an Irish one, and has been mispronounced (like most francophonic things in the midwest throughout most of their history). It was this big Catholic University and at a time when most Americans didn't make much distinction between Irish and Catholic, they accepted the label "Irish" when they should have resisted it.

MFS62 Nov 03 2006 10:14 AM

After reading the posts above, I began thinking, "what is a Hoya"? When I found this in Wilkepedia, I saw that the question is redundant: ]"What is a Hoya" The University admits that the precise origin of the term "Hoya" is unknown. [1] The official story is that at some point prior to 1920, students well-versed in the classical languages invented the Greek hoia or hoya, meaning "what" or "such", and the Latin saxa, to form "What Rocks!" Depending on who tells the story, the "rocks" either refer to the baseball team, which was nicknamed the "Stonewalls" after the Civil War, to the stalwart defense of the football team, or to the stone wall that surrounded the campus. [2] In 1920, students began publishing the campus's first regular newspaper under the name The Hoya, after successfully petitioning Rev. Coleman Nevils, S.J., Dean of the College, to change the name of the young paper, which was originally to be known as The Hilltopper. By the fall of 1928, the newspaper had taken to referring to the sports teams (then called the Hilltoppers in reference to Georgetown's geography) as the Hoyas. Dean Nevils's former school, College of the Holy Cross, also refers to the term "Hoya" in one of its fight songs, as does a third Jesuit school, Marquette University. Big East opponents, whose schools tend to have more concrete nicknames, have long used "What's a Hoya?" as a chant to mock Georgetown. [3] Later

Willets Point Nov 03 2006 02:43 PM

It would be cool if they just went by their English name: The Georgetown Whats. I once went to summer school at Georgetown and they have a convenience store called Saxa Sundries which at least signifies an awareness of the the origin of the school nickname on campus.

Nymr83 Nov 03 2006 03:18 PM

they could have question marks on their sleeves and The Riddler could be the mascot

Rockin' Doc Nov 03 2006 09:37 PM

Virtually all of the Notre Dame fans I have ever known were Catholics. Their nationality and the name Fighting Irish had nothing to do with their fandom. The teams could be known as the Fighting Catholics of Notre Dame and it would have had no ill effect on their fan base. At least in the case my friends and acquaintances that have been (are) Notre Dame fans.

DocTee Nov 03 2006 09:42 PM

Not only has ND resisited all efforts to change their mascot/nickname (History Pro Jay Dolan, with whom I've collaborated on a project for fairness in the media regarding Irish Americans, spearheaded that campaign) they went so far as to copyright it! Only they, it seems, have the right to offend the Irish!!

DocTee Nov 03 2006 09:43 PM

Nymr: would you support a team known as the "hard Bargaining Jews"?

Nymr83 Nov 03 2006 10:05 PM

that would be boring, i'd support the "Cheap Jews" though, I'd be the first to buy the jersey as i'd find it hilarious

metirish Nov 03 2006 10:15 PM

You might find it hilarious but I doubt many others would,that name would last about one day.....it's not that I don't have a sence of humor, I do, but "fighting irish" to me is just insulting and I would never by a ND jersey..it ranks up there with " paddywagon" which I still often see used in newspapers over here....IIRC I saw it in the New York Times recently.

Nymr83 Nov 03 2006 10:26 PM

what is the origin of the term "pattywagon"?

metirish Nov 03 2006 10:30 PM

Irish people are known as "paddies",that's what the Brits call us,"paddywagon" was coined because the Irish were apparently always drunk and fighting..the cops would come with the "paddywagon" to round them up.

SteveJRogers Nov 03 2006 10:33 PM

="Willets Point"]It would be cool if they just went by their English name: The Georgetown Whats. I once went to summer school at Georgetown and they have a convenience store called Saxa Sundries which at least signifies an awareness of the the origin of the school nickname on campus. WHAT!?

patona314 Nov 03 2006 10:57 PM

metirish wrote: Quinn is not even close to the # 1 pick...at least from what I read...GO IRISH..what a load of bollox..it's insulting. As a person from Ireland I find the whole ND thing insulting to my culture...I want nothing to do with it... that is a load of crap. anything that glorifies your culture the way that ND does, should be embraced. ND is special. (btw i'm a penn state fan) in a sports world that embraces politically incorrect identities (redskins, etal) you should be proud of the fighting irish. I'm a kraut (aka german). If there was a team called the "fighting Krauts", half this country would flip the fuck out.

metirish Nov 03 2006 11:06 PM

It glorifies my culture in what way?......

patona314 Nov 03 2006 11:13 PM

metirish wrote: It glorifies my culture in what way?...... you're an american. irish+italian+german+polish+indian+etc=american. your culture is one of very few that's look at in a positive light. thank god your'e not french

Edgy DC Nov 03 2006 11:16 PM

patona314 wrote: your culture is one of very few that's look at in a positive light. That's a pretty broad, and less than accurate, generalization.

metirish Nov 03 2006 11:16 PM

I'm from Ireland....and the Irish were not always looked on as positive...I feel bad for Irish-Americans at times...

patona314 Nov 03 2006 11:23 PM

metirish wrote: I'm from Ireland....and the Irish were not always looked on as positive...I feel bad for Irish-Americans at times... why

patona314 Nov 03 2006 11:24 PM

Edgy DC wrote: ="patona314"]your culture is one of very few that's look at in a positive light. That's a pretty broad, and less than accurate, generalization. melting pot?

metirish Nov 03 2006 11:26 PM

Because they have to deal with silly Irish stereotypes, I remember in the early 90's ND played a few games at Croke Park...me and my friends were like...who the fuck are these idiots..fighting irish...what a load of bullshit.....

patona314 Nov 03 2006 11:36 PM

metirish wrote: Because they have to deal with silly Irish stereotypes, I remember in the early 90's ND played a few games at Croke Park...me and my friends were like...who the fuck are these idiots..fighting irish...what a load of bullshit..... so you do not think that irish culture is imbedded into american culture? if you don't, you are wrong.

Nymr83 Nov 03 2006 11:38 PM

Hail! (to a great waste of the seaver post)

patona314 Nov 03 2006 11:38 PM

patona314 wrote: ="metirish"]Because they have to deal with silly Irish stereotypes, I remember in the early 90's ND played a few games at Croke Park...me and my friends were like...who the fuck are these idiots..fighting irish...what a load of bullshit..... so you do not think that irish culture is imbedded into american culture? if you don't, you are wrong. that was soooo cool

metirish Nov 03 2006 11:38 PM

Of course Irish culture is part of this country...my point is that I hate the stereotypes...and not just of irish culture...

patona314 Nov 03 2006 11:46 PM

metirish wrote: Of course Irish culture is part of this country...my point is that I hate the stereotypes...and not just of irish culture... i'll give you this.. I went to a bbq last weekend and met a neighbor's wife who was the hottest (I MEAN HOTTEST) red head i have ever seen in my life (freckles and all). If it wasn't for my hot scottish/german wife, i might have been killed by the red head's italian husband.

SteveJRogers Nov 03 2006 11:49 PM

patona314 wrote: ="metirish"]I'm from Ireland....and the Irish were not always looked on as positive...I feel bad for Irish-Americans at times... why Four words: Irish Need Not Apply.

patona314 Nov 03 2006 11:52 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Nov 03 2006 11:54 PM

SteveJRogers wrote: ="patona314"] ="metirish"]I'm from Ireland....and the Irish were not always looked on as positive...I feel bad for Irish-Americans at times... why Four words: Irish Need Not Apply. that was a little rough my people tried to take over the world, do you think the same about me?

SteveJRogers Nov 03 2006 11:53 PM

[url]http://www.kinsella.org/history/histira.htm[/url] ]Irish Immigrants in America during the 19th Century Though life in Ireland was cruel, emigrating to America was not a joyful event...it was referred to as the American Wake for these people knew they would never see Ireland again. Those who pursued this path did so only because they new their future in Ireland would only be more poverty, disease, and English oppression. America became their dream. Early immigrant letters described it as a land of abundance and urged others to follow them through the "Golden Door." These letters were read at social events encouraging the young to join them in this wonderful new country. They left in droves on ships that were so crowded, with conditions so terrible, that they were referred to as Coffin Ships. Even as the boat was docking, these immigrants to America learned that life in America was going to be a battle for survival. Hundreds of runners, usually large greedy men, swarmed aboard the ship grabbing immigrants and their bags trying to force them to their favorite tenement house and then exact an outrageous fee for their services. As the poor immigrant had no means of moving on, they settled in the port of arrival. Almshouses were filled with these Irish immigrants. They begged on every street. One honest immigrant wrote home at the height of the potato famine exodus, "My master is a great tyrant, he treats me as badly as if I was a common Irishman." The writer further added, "Our position in America is one of shame and poverty." No group was considered lower than an Irishman in America during the 1850s. Free land did not lure them. They rejected the land for the land had rejected them; yet even so they always spoke reverently of the old sod in Ireland. All major cities had their "Irish Town" or "Shanty Town" where the Irish clung together. Our immigrant ancestors were not wanted in America. Ads for employment often were followed by "NO IRISH NEED APPLY." They were forced to live in cellars and shanties, partly because of poverty but also because they were considered bad for the neighborhood...they were unfamiliar with plumbing and running water. These living conditions bred sickness and early death. It was estimated that 80% of all infants born to Irish immigrants in New York City died. Their brogue and dress provoked ridicule; their poverty and illiteracy provoked scorn. The Chicago Post wrote, "The Irish fill our prisons, our poor houses...Scratch a convict or a pauper, and the chances are that you tickle the skin of an Irish Catholic. Putting them on a boat and sending them home would end crime in this country." Instead of apologizing for themselves they united and took offense. Insult or intimidation was often met with violence. Solidarity was their strength, they helped each other survive city life. They prayed and drank together. The men seemed to do more drinking than praying, yet it was their faith and dogged determination to become Americans that led one newspaper to say, "The Irish have become more Americanized than the Americans." The Church played an integral part in their lives. It was a militant Church--a Church who fought not only for their souls but also for their human rights. After the religious riots in Philadelphia where many Catholic churches were burned, the mayor of New York asked Archbishop Hughes, "Do you fear that some of your churches will be burned." "No sir, but I am afraid some of yours will be. We can protect our own." Later, public officials asked the Archbishop to restrain New York's Irish. "I have not the power," he said. "You must take care that they are not provoked." No Catholic church burned in New York. Actually the Irish arrived at a time of need for America. The country was growing and it needed men to do the heavy work of building bridges, canals, and railroads. It was hard, dangerous work, a common expression heard among the railroad workers was "an Irishman was buried under every tie." Desperation drove them to these jobs. Not only the men worked, but the women too. They became chamber maids, cooks, and the caretakers of children. Early Americans disdained this type of work, fit only for servants, the common sentiment being, "Let Negroes be servants, and if not Negroes, let Irishmen fill their place..." The Blacks hated the Irish and it appeared to be a mutual feeling. They were the first to call the Irish "white nigger." A prominent hotel keeper was asked why all the women servants in his hotel were Irish. He replied, "The thing is very simple: the Irish girls are industrious, willing, cheerful, and honest--they work hard, and they are very strictly moral. I should say that is quite reason enough." The Irish were unique among immigrants. They fiercely loved America but never gave up their allegiance to Ireland...and they kept their hatred of the English. Twice they tried to invade Canada, believing that they could trade Canadian land for Ireland's freedom. In New York City, during the Civil War, they rioted against the draft lottery after the first drawing showed most of the names were Irish. For three days the city was terrorized by Irish mobs and only after an appeal for peace by Archbishop Hughes did it end. In Pennsylvania they formed a secret organization called the Molly Maguires to fight mine owners who brutalized the miners and their families. They ambushed mine bosses, beat, and even killed them in their homes. The Irish used brutal methods to fight brutal oppression. They loved America and gladly fought in her wars. During the Civil War they were fierce warriors, forming among other groups, the famous "Irish Brigade". A priest accompanied them and, before each battle, they would pray together before charging into the enemy--even against insurmountable odds. Their faith guided them. They felt the English might have a better life on earth, but they were going to have a better life after death. The days of "No Irish Need Apply" passed. St.Patrick day paraded replaced violent confrontations. The Irish not only won acceptance for their day, but persuaded everyone else to become Irish at least for St.Patrick's Day. The Orangemen or New York City copied the St.Pat's Day parade in 1870 and, as they marched, played "Boyne Water", "Derry" and other songs derogatory towards the Catholics. Fights broke out and only the police (themselves mostly Irish) saved the Orangemen and women. The next year another Orange parade was scheduled...the police banned it. The appearance of large numbers of Jews, Slavs, and Italian immigrants led many Americans to consider the Irish an asset; their Americanization was now recognized. Hostility shifted from the Irish to the new nationalities. Through poverty and subhuman living conditions, the Irish tenaciously clung to each other. With their ingenuity for organization, they were able to gain power and acceptance. In 1850 at the crest of the Potato Famine immigration, Orestes Brownson, a celebrated convert to Catholicism, stated: "Out of these narrow lanes, dirty streets, damp cellars, and suffocating garrets, will come forth some of the noblest sons of our country, whom she will delight to own and honor." In little more than a century his prophecy rang true. Irish-Americans had moved from the position of the despised to the oval office.

SteveJRogers Nov 03 2006 11:57 PM

patona314 wrote: ="SteveJRogers"] patona314 wrote: ="metirish"]I'm from Ireland....and the Irish were not always looked on as positive...I feel bad for Irish-Americans at times... why Four words: Irish Need Not Apply. that was a little rough my people tried to take over the world, do you think the same about me? Read the quoted text, that is from actual advertizments for work during the 1800's in cities like New York and Chicago. The Irish struggle in this country is was a hard fought one.

patona314 Nov 04 2006 12:03 AM

understood

Elster88 Nov 04 2006 09:12 AM

I always thought Fightin Irish meant the football team...so that it was the Notre Dame Irish, and they fought hard to win games. I don't see where the insult is.

DocTee Nov 04 2006 10:26 AM

The mascot is far worse than the nickname. IIRC, the first president of ND was a chaplain in the fmaed irish Brigade, which had fought valorously in the Civil War, erasing many of the negative images and stereotypes of antebellum Irish immigrants (many continued, however, and the No Irish need Apply period is more accurate of the 1890s). At the Battle of Fredericksburg, the Brigade earned the sobriquet "Fighting Irish" and when the chaplain moved to academe, the nickname was adopted aas a testament to his (and thousands of others) contributions. Unfortuantely many Irish-Americans buy not just ND paraphenalia but the image that their culture should embrace pugnacity (and drinking)...As George Carlin (an Irish American) posits: why not get all the stereotypes out of the way and call them the Brawling, Drinking, Short-Dicked Irish?? And that fucking leprechaun is just stupid and offensive

metsmarathon Nov 04 2006 10:48 AM

="Edgy DC"]We have to look at this with some degree of nuance. There's a difference between calling a team after a local tribe and calling them Redskins There's a difference between "Irish" and "Fighting Irish" and there's a difference between "Fighting Illini" and "Fighting Irish" and there's a difference betewen "Irish" and "Leprechaun." This all began with an inability to make distinctions, as the University was founded by a French order, not an Irish one, and has been mispronounced (like most francophonic things in the midwest throughout most of their history). It was this big Catholic University and at a time when most Americans didn't make much distinction between Irish and Catholic, they accepted the label "Irish" when they should have resisted it. well, c'mon... is not like they could've called themselves the fightin' french, and expected to win a game!

metsmarathon Nov 04 2006 10:54 AM

]Twice [the irish] tried to invade Canada, believing that they could trade Canadian land for Ireland's freedom. well, that sounds like a fun story to learn more about...

MFS62 Nov 04 2006 11:38 AM

In Blazing Saddles, Mel Brooks spoofed the Jewish "Lost Tribe" legend by having the Indians speak Yiddish. But he also alluded to the Anti-Irish sentiment of the (I'll guess) 1890s in one scene. The railroad workers meet with the townspeople to try to unite to save the town from the railroad barrons who want to build the railroad through their town. The workers say they will help, in exchange for land of their own in the saved town. The mayor says (something like), "We'll take the Chinks (Chineese) and Niggers (no explanation necessary), but no Irish." Then he relents by saying "Wellll, all right". Later

DocTee Nov 04 2006 12:01 PM

]Quote: Twice [the irish] tried to invade Canada, believing that they could trade Canadian land for Ireland's freedom. well, that sounds like a fun story to learn more about... Shameless plug: Check out my dissertation: Erin's Hope: The Fenian Brotherhood of New York City, 1858-1886

RealityChuck Nov 04 2006 02:50 PM

SteveJRogers wrote: ="patona314"] ="metirish"]I'm from Ireland....and the Irish were not always looked on as positive...I feel bad for Irish-Americans at times... why Four words: Irish Need Not Apply. That's a myth: http://tigger.uic.edu/~rjensen/no-irish.htm Summarizing, there is no evidence anywhere that this was used in advertisements for workers at any time. All uses of that phrase are tied back to a popular song that used it. Key finding: ]An electronic search of all the text of the several hundred thousand pages of magazines and books online at Library of Congress, Cornell University Library and the University of Michigan Library, and complete runs of The New York Times and The Nation, turned up about a dozen uses of NINA. 17 The complete text of New York Times is searchable from 1851 through 1923. Although the optical character recognition is not perfect (some microfilmed pages are blurry), it captures most of the text. A search of seventy years of the daily paper revealed only two classified ads with NINA—one posted by a Brooklyn harness shop that wanted a boy who could write, and a request for a couple to take charge of a cottage upstate. 18

DocTee Nov 04 2006 03:07 PM

Jensen is wrong-- even if NINA signs didn't exist (and they did), anti-Irish discrimination was rampant.

metirish Nov 04 2006 03:16 PM

When the Baseball HOF did a traveling show a few years back I went to the city to see it, on display was a newspaper ad looking for a 3rd baseman....NINA was part of the ad..

DocTee Nov 04 2006 03:35 PM

to be fair, I have seen ads in Irish American periodicals from the period that said "Help wanted; none but Irish need apply"

Edgy DC Nov 04 2006 04:32 PM

Doc Tee and Edgy DC share a field of study. Who'd have thought it? As Tee alluded to, the problem is with the nuance of "Fighting," where, if it was ever meant in the same way as Fighting Illini, as in "they who fight bravely on behalf of their nation on the field of honor," it has come to mean "they who comically love a good pugnacious scrap." The logo isn't a proud celt soberly decked in battle regalia. The logo is a brawling fairy! How is that not as stupid as a grinning idiot Indian?

Edgy DC Nov 04 2006 04:56 PM

metsmarathon wrote: ]Twice [the irish] tried to invade Canada, believing that they could trade Canadian land for Ireland's freedom. well, that sounds like a fun story to learn more about... It's great, except that there were actual deaths in this fandango of a move. Under the notion that, if they can't take Britain, they can take a British outpost, a bunch of Irish-American Fenians pretty much paid off a border guard in northern New York and marched makeshift column into Canada, taking a surprised fort and cutting off railroad and telegraph lines. When the British got wind of what had happened, the redfaced Americans re-fortified the border, cutting off supply lines and making it an easy rout for the counter-attacking Canucks a few days later. But the majority of the Fenian forces slipped back into the US uncaptured.

Yancy Street Gang Nov 04 2006 05:45 PM

In what year did this happen?

metirish Nov 04 2006 06:06 PM

http://www.bivouacbooks.com/bbv2i3s6.htm

martin Nov 04 2006 09:08 PM

pride or shame in these groups we were born into seems kinda primitive. i think it is a good idea for these groups to be mocked and taunted. it is no big deal. let's be individuals. if there was a german soccer team that was called the americans, and their mascot was a fat mindless oaf, spreading junk culture around the world, that would be awesome. i would hope they were bundesliga champions. and if i went to germany and some people had bought into the stereotype so much that they assumed i was like the caricature, i dont see that as a problem. my guess is that most people i would want to associate with would be smart enough to realize that generalizations are not always applicable to individuals.

RealityChuck Nov 04 2006 09:52 PM

DocTee wrote: Jensen is wrong-- even if NINA signs didn't exist (and they did), anti-Irish discrimination was rampant. Did you even read the article (which was published originally in a well-regarded academic journal)? If the signs existed, can you produce any solid evidence? A photo? An actual contemporaneous account of them (not someone who, probably influenced by the song, said they existed)? Jenson has researched the issue and found only a dozen instances in several hundred thousand pages of documentation? What research have you done on the matter, other than repeat the urban legend? Yes, there was anti-Irish discrimination. There also was anti-Black, anti-Jewish, anti-Italian, anti-Polish, anti-German, and anti-pick-the-ethnic-group-of-your-choice discrimination. The Irish were no worse than any other ethinic group in this regard (and certainly better off than Blacks).

Edgy DC Nov 04 2006 10:48 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Nov 13 2006 07:16 AM

martin wrote: if there was a german soccer team that was called the americans, and their mascot was a fat mindless oaf, spreading junk culture around the world, that would be awesome. i would hope they were bundesliga champions. This is the second such statement like this< after the "Cheap Jews" comment. I don't believe this. The idea might be fun for satire's sake for a short time, but after the novelty wore off, if you saw such a caricature leading to misperceptions about a group and misperceptions by young members of the group about themselves, you'd see it as bad.

DocTee Nov 05 2006 12:20 AM

]DocTee wrote: Jensen is wrong-- even if NINA signs didn't exist (and they did), anti-Irish discrimination was rampant. Did you even read the article (which was published originally in a well-regarded academic journal)? If the signs existed, can you produce any solid evidence? A photo? An actual contemporaneous account of them (not someone who, probably influenced by the song, said they existed)? Jenson has researched the issue and found only a dozen instances in several hundred thousand pages of documentation? What research have you done on the matter, other than repeat the urban legend? Yes, there was anti-Irish discrimination. There also was anti-Black, anti-Jewish, anti-Italian, anti-Polish, anti-German, and anti-pick-the-ethnic-group-of-your-choice discrimination. The Irish were no worse than any other ethinic group in this regard (and certainly better off than Blacks). Yes, I've read the article. And I've debated Professor Jensen on this issue, one which I've spent a long time researching. He says there are no signs, but produces a dozen examples?? Catholic churches were burned, immigrants were denied political opportunity and otherwise marginalized. To turn the situation around and state that myth has replaced reality is wrong. Only four more months to pitchers and catchers, when we can debate more appropriate topics for his forum, like who should be in our rotation. Cheers,

martin Nov 05 2006 04:12 AM

Edgy DC wrote: ="martin"]if there was a german soccer team that was called the americans, and their mascot was a fat mindless oaf, spreading junk culture around the world, that would be awesome. i would hope they were bundesliga champions. This is the second such statement like this< after the "Cheap Jews" comment. I don't believe this. The idea might be fun for satire's sake for a short time, but after the novelty wore off, if you saw such a caricature leading to misperceptions about a group and misperceptions by young members of the group about themselves, you'd see it as bad. incorrect. i do not identify myself strongly with these groups and do not care how they are perceived. i am not some fervent american nationalist that cares about how we are portrayed. i happen to be american, and america is ok with me, but i really do not care if we are misrepresented abroad. all other groups i am a member of, or was born into, i have either left the group or do not care about them at all. besides, nobody with any brains applies silly cartoonish stereotypes to individuals. nobody really thinks that irish are goofy drunken hooligans. and my example of the german soccer team, if that existed, it wouldn't convince anyone that all americans actually were fat oafs. i think it is far more important that we as people learn to think like individuals and stop dividing ourselves into mostly arbitrary groups that you can collectively offend than we protect the feelings of people who seek comfort in these groups. if i were jewish, i certainly would not care about a team called the "cheap jews", because i would have long ago stopped self-identifying as jewish, which is a pretty silly and destructive construct. i certainly take no pride in the goofy southern christian culture of my birth. satire is important, we should always err on the side of too much satire, when weighing satire vs offensiveness.

patona314 Nov 05 2006 07:38 AM

i think we need a group hug. p.s. those stupid, idiotic, mother loving pennsylvanians (penn state) lost to those sheep lovers up in wisconsin yesterday. now i gotta curse out my midwestern neighbor.

Edgy DC Nov 05 2006 08:18 AM Edited 3 time(s), most recently on Nov 13 2006 07:18 AM

1) Misrepresentations kill. 2) Satire tends to have a very short shelf life. At best, it wears thin; at worst, people misread it as a useful illustration of reality (which has happened in this thread). ]besides, nobody with any brains applies silly cartoonish stereotypes to individuals. I don't know what qualifies someone as having brains or why it matters, but people are misled. And it can be dangerous.

Elster88 Nov 05 2006 09:52 AM

]besides, nobody with any brains applies silly cartoonish stereotypes to individuals. I take it you've never read a single story about Derek Jeter or Alex Rodriguez in the NY Daily News.

martin Nov 05 2006 01:34 PM

Elster88 wrote: ]besides, nobody with any brains applies silly cartoonish stereotypes to individuals. I take it you've never read a single story about Derek Jeter or Alex Rodriguez in the NY Daily News. i do not know what you mean. who is applying a stereotype to these guys? however, as an american myself, i am offended that they use the slang term yankees, because people apply the characteristics of the yankees to me. when i go abroad, they yell "you are a soulless mercenary who chokes when it is important to perform and feels entitled to everything! yankee go home!" as a member of the group oppressed by the nickname, i get to define what is offensive. they must change the name now. same with the mets, i am offended as a resident of a metropolitan area.

Elster88 Nov 05 2006 01:52 PM

martin wrote: ="Elster88"] ]besides, nobody with any brains applies silly cartoonish stereotypes to individuals. I take it you've never read a single story about Derek Jeter or Alex Rodriguez in the NY Daily News. i do not know what you mean. who is applying a stereotype to these guys? Not too quick on the uptake today, huh?

martin Nov 05 2006 01:54 PM

uptake isnt my specialty.

Edgy DC Nov 06 2006 12:07 AM

Doesn't the paradox embedded in the second sentence --- "No one has ever seen one of these NINA signs because they were extremely rare or nonexistent" --- discredit the essay right off?

Edgy DC Nov 06 2006 12:34 AM

="RealityChuck"]Did you even read the article (which was published originally in a well-regarded academic journal)? If the signs existed, can you produce any solid evidence? A photo? An actual contemporaneous account of them (not someone who, probably influenced by the song, said they existed)? Jenson has researched the issue and found only a dozen instances in several hundred thousand pages of documentation? What research have you done on the matter, other than repeat the urban legend? ="DocTee"]Yes, I've read the article. And I've debated Professor Jensen on this issue, one which I've spent a long time researching. He says there are no signs, but produces a dozen examples?? This is a wonderful piece of wham! here. Really, the more I read of that article the more it stinks, particularly academically. When he finds evidence that contradicts his thesis, he bends over backwards to dismiss it, apparently because he's too emotionally invested, and then overstates his thesis even more.

martin Nov 13 2006 05:20 AM

Elster88 wrote: Not too quick on the uptake today, huh? i was discussing stereotypes, and applying them to individuals. i was saying that that cartoonish representations of a group, fighting irish for example, are rarely applied by sane people to individuals. we dont actually meet irish people and think they are silly little fighting freaks like the notre dame mascot. we do not think native americans are really like the goofy grinning face guy on the cleveland cap. and would you really worry about the conclusions drawn by people who are dumb enough to make decisions about a people based on a team name/mascot? that is why i dont think these team names are very damaging to whatever groups are offended by them. and your example of a cartoonish stereotype of arod in jeter in the paper was beside the point and useless in this context, or at least it appears that way to me, and apparently you would rather insult me than explain after i asked what you meant.

Edgy DC Nov 13 2006 07:26 AM

I don't think hoping for a world where everyone is smarter is going to work if we don't object when people spread stupidity. If you've never seen 19-year-old Irish American wearing his Notre Dame jacket on a Thursday night, drunk to the gills and bloodied from brawling, not on any reliable track for a higher education degree himself, and deluded that his stupid behavior is somehow true to his proud ethnic heritage, I don't know what to tell you. I've seen too many of them.

MFS62 Nov 13 2006 07:43 AM

Since this was going to be split off anyhow, why wasn't it moved to the non-baseball forum? Later

RealityChuck Nov 13 2006 09:04 AM

="DocTee"] ] Yes, I've read the article. And I've debated Professor Jensen on this issue, one which I've spent a long time researching. He says there are no signs, but produces a dozen examples?? Read the article. He finds s few, but only out of tens of thousands of advertisements. That's a ridiculously small small sample to claim systematic repression. Compare the number of signs he was able to find out of all those he searched with the number of documented cross burnings. ]Catholic churches were burned, immigrants were denied political opportunity and otherwise marginalized. All immigrants were. There are two issues, discrimination -- which existed for all immigrants -- and the "No Irish Need Apply" signs -- which were extremely rare. ]To turn the situation around and state that myth has replaced reality is wrong. Not when the myth has replaced reality. The fact remains that the words "No Irish Need Apply" hardly ever were used in advertisments of the time, and that they perceived prevelance was due to a popular song. metsmarathon Nov 13 2006 09:10 AM martin wrote: and would you really worry about the conclusions drawn by people who are dumb enough to make decisions about a people based on a team name/mascot? individually, no. but stupid people massed together create a powerful force - a Collective Dumb - that can be at times insuperable. think of the south, and racial attitudes thereof or of teenagers, anywhere. until we find a way to ferret out the stupid and isolate them from each other and insulate the world from them all, you really really do need to worry about what stupid people think. stupid people find themselves voting, and voted into office. they find themselves in positions of importance, and of influence. stupid people shape public policy, and have public policy shaped for them. and more importantly, when you mix stupid people with aggressive behavior, you end up with bad acts being committed against individuals for the failings of a stereotype. Edgy DC Nov 13 2006 09:41 AM "Did you even read the article." "Yes, I've read the article." "Read the article." DocTee Nov 13 2006 10:13 AM Chuck, I think you misread my post. I don't want to get into a pissing contest about which immigrant group had (or has) it worse-- I am just pointing out that even if NINA ads never existed (and they did-- the fact that they are few and far between is not surprising given the largely illiterate nature of the Irish immigrants--- why put in print that they were not wanted when 1. they couldn't read and 2. they couldn't afford the paper if they were literate?!) discrimination did (something even Jensen would acknowledge). As to stereotypes never being adopted by a thinking public, look no further than the Wild West shows of the 1890's, or the tricentennial of Jamestown (1907) where members of the native community were told they were not welcome in the historical exhibits, but could articulute their heritage in the amusement concourse...it is a slippery slope from objectifying someone to liquidating them. We've come a long way, thank God. martin Nov 13 2006 04:42 PM metsmarathon wrote: think of the south, and racial attitudes thereof i am from the south, and my experience is that the south and the northeast are not really different in terms of racism. perhaps you are buying into stereotypes about the south. ]If you've never seen 19-year-old Irish American wearing his Notre Dame jacket on a Thursday night, drunk to the gills and bloodied from brawling, not on any reliable track for a higher education degree himself, and deluded that his stupid behavior is somehow true to his proud ethnic heritage i was thinking of people being offended by being misportrayed, i hadnt considered the dummies who have applied the sterotypes to themselves as part of their cultural identity or whatever. i suspect these people would find some other way to ruin themselves if they are acting out what they saw a mascot doing. in these cases i blame the dummies, not the mascots. the person who needs to change is the guy who thinks of thaq caricature as a role model, not the guy who makes up silly team names. a little personal responsibility is in order, and a little less victim mentality. Edgy DC Nov 13 2006 05:00 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Nov 13 2006 10:51 PM Yeah, thanks for assessing my mentality. My mentality is that stupid and misleading crap that spreads ignorance should be called stupid and misleading crap. (And I don't know how you could miss my prior reference to people having a corrupt view of themselves.) martin Nov 13 2006 05:11 PM i meant victim mentality on the part of the person who would claim they are fighting and drunk because they were doing what society's stereotype told them to do. i dunno why are making excuses for this person. i think it is condescending for us to say we shouldnt have goofy mascots because we need to protect people from trying to be like them. "hey irish guy, we were going to have a drunken fighter guy as our mascot, but you would actually do that, so we won't". i wasnt assessing your mentality. metsmarathon Nov 13 2006 05:12 PM martin wrote: ="metsmarathon"] think of the south, and racial attitudes thereof i am from the south, and my experience is that the south and the northeast are not really different in terms of racism. perhaps you are buying into stereotypes about the south. well, then i guess that must surely invalidate my entire point then. martin Nov 13 2006 05:20 PM no it doesnt( validate your point), because you are not assuming i am racist merely because i am from the south. the happy stereotype exists, but we are not applying it to individuals. and, i, being a southerner, am not using my upbringing as an excuse to be racist. so the stereotype isnt really causing any problems on either end. Edgy DC Nov 13 2006 11:02 PM ="martin"]i meant victim mentality on the part of the person who would claim they are fighting and drunk because they were doing what society's stereotype told them to do. i dunno why are making excuses for this person. i think it is condescending for us to say we shouldnt have goofy mascots because we need to protect people from trying to be like them. "hey irish guy, we were going to have a drunken fighter guy as our mascot, but you would actually do that, so we won't". i wasnt assessing your mentality. I never spoke to what anyone would claim. I'm claiming, me, that stupid destructive cultural distortions have stupid destructive consequences and shouldn't be supported. martin Nov 14 2006 12:35 AM earlier you mentioned the irish guy that fights because he thinks that is what his culture is. i thought you meant he is the victim of society's distortions of his people giving him problems with his self-image. he should learn to find more healthy role models, and we as a society are not saddled with the responsibility of making sure our mascots do not trouble him. we dont need to protect everyone from everything. we are misplacing responsibility. notre dame isnt to blame when people think that irish people, including themselves, are drunken fighters. if there was the soccer team called the fat idiot americans, and i decided i would be fat and and idiot, thats my fault, not the soccer team. or if other people bought the stereotype that i was fat and lazy, it would be fun to prove them wrong. but it seems unlikely that i would ever deal with anyone that would think less of me because they got their idea of americans from a mascot. should we have opposed archie bunker when many people missed the point and liked his character and supported his racism? Edgy DC Nov 14 2006 07:29 AM ]we dont need to protect everyone from everything. I object to stupid shit when it happens to come up. How many times do you want to overinterpret that into some sort of social engineering? Or an attempt to legally absolve miscreants of their responsibility for their personal behavior? Their contribition to the marketplace of ideas is a brawling fairy. My contribution is to call that a stupid choice that should be beneath the university. ]but it seems unlikely that i would ever deal with anyone that would think less of me because they got their idea of americans from a mascot. Similar things happen every day. Ignorance is bad. I'm ag'in' it.