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Howard MVP

Frayed Knot Nov 20 2006 02:24 PM

Pujols 2nd Berkman 3rd Beltran 4th still looking for the complete voting

metirish Nov 20 2006 02:25 PM

Good,I'm happy that that crackhead Pujols didn't win.

seawolf17 Nov 20 2006 02:30 PM

BOOOOO. I voted for Reyes. But that might make that Ryan Howard autographed baseball card I pulled a few months ago from a pack bump up in value a bit.

TransMonk Nov 20 2006 02:31 PM

Reyes 7th Wright 9th 2006 NL MVP Voting Player 1st 2nd 3rd Pts Ryan Howard, Phillies 20 12 -- 388 Albert Pujols, Cardinals 12 19 1 347 Lance Berkman, Astros -- -- 21 230 Carlos Beltran, Mets -- 1 5 211 Miguel Cabrera, Marlins -- -- 2 170 Alfonso Soriano, Nats -- -- 1 106 Jose Reyes, Mets -- -- 1 98 Chase Utley, Phillies -- -- -- 98 David Wright, Mets -- -- 1 70 Trevor Hoffman, Padres -- -- -- 46

metirish Nov 20 2006 02:31 PM

Complete voting here FK... http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2669508

Edgy DC Nov 20 2006 02:38 PM

2006 NL MVP Voting Player 1st 2nd 3rd Pts Ryan Howard, Phillies 20 12 -- 388 Albert Pujols, Cardinals 12 19 1 347 Lance Berkman, Astros -- -- 21 230 Carlos Beltran, Mets -- 1 5 211 Miguel Cabrera, Marlins -- -- 2 170 Alfonso Soriano, Nats -- -- 1 106 Jose Reyes, Mets -- -- 1 98 Chase Utley, Philies -- -- -- 98 David Wright, Mets -- -- 1 70 Trevor Hoffman, Padres -- -- -- 46 Scoring: 14 points for first place, nine for second, eight for third and on down to one for 10th. Others receiving votes: Andruw Jones (29), Carlos Delgado (23), Nomar Garciaparra (18), Rafael Furcal (11), Garrett Atkins (10), Matt Holliday (10), Aramis Ramirez (5), Freddy Sanchez (5), Chris Carpenter (4), Chipper Jones (3), Mike Cameron (2), Jimmy Rollins (2), Bronson Arroyo (1), Jason Bay (1).

metirish Nov 20 2006 02:48 PM

Ok,dumb question,how is Soriano's 1 third place vote worth more than Reyes's 1 third place vote? Beltran gets $200,000 for fourth..nice work.

Frayed Knot Nov 20 2006 02:53 PM

metirish wrote: Ok,dumb question,how is Soriano's 1 third place vote worth more than Reyes's 1 third place vote? Scoring: 14 points for first place, nine for second, eight for third and on down to one for 10th. IOW, there are other votes not shown on that chart This is the one award where voters list their top 10 choices, not just 1st, 2nd, 3rd

metirish Nov 20 2006 02:54 PM

] IOW, there are other votes not shown on that chart Thanks,makes sense.

Edgy DC Nov 20 2006 02:59 PM

Smart answer: Each voter gets ten votes, but only the guys who got top-three votes are shown. It's a lot more fun than the awards that only allow you to vote for three guys.

Nymr83 Nov 20 2006 03:49 PM

i'm shocked that Beltran faired so poorly.

Gwreck Nov 20 2006 03:53 PM

="metirish"]Good,I'm happy that that crackhead Pujols didn't win. I don't like Pujols much either but giving the award to Howard is impossible to reconcile with the numbers they put up. Howard's 8 extra homers and 7 extra RBI cannot make up for the fact that he struck out 181 times to Pujols' 50; Pujols also had an average 28 points higher (the rest of the numbers were fundamentally the same, with slightly higher totals to Albert in almost every other category. Howard actually had another star (Utley) hitting in that lineup too. Stupid vote.

Edgy DC Nov 20 2006 04:16 PM

Albert Pujols had an OPS+ of 180 to 170 for Ryan Howard, but he missed some time, and had 634 plate appearances to Howard's 704. The relative lack of strikeouts for Pujols may well have led to a handful more of productive outs than Howard. Maybe even two handfuls. But they also led to 20 double plays, versus Howard's 7. You still may want to go with Pujols, but I think the other view is indeed reconcileable with the numbers.

metirish Nov 20 2006 04:20 PM

Some no doubt will say it's northeast bias...

metsmarathon Nov 20 2006 04:36 PM

the runs created stat gives howard an edge over pujols, 150-140, or thereabouts. i'm sure howard's defensive liabilities cut into his lead as far as an overall better player goes. and if howard got any additional votes over pujols for playing for a team in contention late in the season, that's just unfailingly dumb. for so many many reasons. win shares show pujols with a slim lead, 39-38 over beltran, and a wide, wide margin over howard, who sits 6th in the NL with 31 win shares.

Edgy DC Nov 20 2006 04:43 PM

Where does Howard lose out the most on win shares --- batting, baserunning, or fielding?

G-Fafif Nov 20 2006 05:02 PM

metirish wrote: Some no doubt will say it's northeast bias... Yet not quite north enough or east enough for my tastes. It's not necessarily an argument against Howard, whose numbers were hard to ignore (obviously) and whose impact on the Phillies getting as close as they did was enormous, but I wonder if anybody else has ever... *Won a Gold Glove *Won a Silver Slugger *Started in the All-Star Game *Tied his franchise's record for home runs in a season *Broke his franchise's record for runs scored in a season *Played on the team with the sport's best record ...and finished as low as fourth in the MVP voting. Then again, I wonder if anybody has ever done those six things in the same season, period.

metsmarathon Nov 20 2006 05:05 PM Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Nov 20 2006 05:09 PM

....

metsmarathon Nov 20 2006 05:07 PM

player batting fielding pujols 36.3 2.4 beltran 30.0 8.3 howard 29.8 1.2 howard gets killed on hitting, per win shares. if i were to guess, i'd blame that on the hitter-friendliness of his home park - its about the only thing that maybe makes sense CBP was rated as a 103 park factor for hitters, BS3 was a 98, and SS was a 95. so howard is going to get de-rated for hitting in those friendly confines. that, and perhaps win shares needs to do a better, or smarter, job of looking at defense. for a first baseman, this is what gets looked at, in order of decreasing importance First Basemen: Plays Made, Errors, Arm Rating and Errors by third basemen and shortstops maybe that doesn't adequately capture the real difference between howard's and pujols' glove work??? ... fwiw, baseball prospectus' WARP3 shows pujols at 12.9, beltran at 11.8, and howard way down at 9.4, and the biggest difference there is his glove.

Elster88 Nov 20 2006 06:31 PM

G-Fafif wrote: ="metirish"]Some no doubt will say it's northeast bias... Yet not quite north enough or east enough for my tastes. It's not necessarily an argument against Howard, whose numbers were hard to ignore (obviously) and whose impact on the Phillies getting as close as they did was enormous, but I wonder if anybody else has ever... *Won a Gold Glove *Won a Silver Slugger *Started in the All-Star Game *Tied his franchise's record for home runs in a season *Broke his franchise's record for runs scored in a season *Played on the team with the sport's best record ...and finished as low as fourth in the MVP voting. Then again, I wonder if anybody has ever done those six things in the same season, period. Wow. You sure as hell convinced me Greg (sc = 0). Not to mention he won the Gold Glove in CF.

metirish Nov 20 2006 06:50 PM

yeah,excellent points...I guess his one bad month hurt him....

Nymr83 Nov 20 2006 06:54 PM

the franchise records dont realy matter to me because on half the teams in the league he wouldnt have set them, but a silver slugger and gold glove in a middle of the field position for a playoff team should = automatic MVP. i'd have been less annoyed to only lose to one guy like Pujols who arguably was a 1-man show that got his team into the playoffs, but to lose to 3 guys, 2 of whom didnt get into October, is annoying.

Edgy DC Nov 20 2006 07:30 PM

I think being on a playoff team is irrelevant. In fact, the Gold Glove, deserved by Beltran or not, is too much a byproduct of the visiblity of being on a playoff team and the visibility of being a slugger, so that's made less relevant also. ]fwiw, baseball prospectus' WARP3 shows pujols at 12.9, beltran at 11.8, and howard way down at 9.4, and the biggest difference there is his glove. I guess I've got to math like the WARP guys, but I've got this. Ryan Howard had an OPS+ of 170. Albert Pujols had an OPS+ of 180. So there your park factor is accounted for. Now, maybe I'm way off here, but I've heard estimated in the past that a replacement level hitter is a 60, OPS+-wise. Ryan Howard had an OPS+ above replacement of 110. Albert Pujols had an OPS+ above replacement of 120. That shows it. Pujols was a 9.1% better hitter than Howard (OPS+-wise). When he was in the lineup. But Howard was in the lineup 11% more. Multiply Pujols's 634 AB by 120 and we have 76080. Multiply Howard's 704 AB by 110 and we have 77440. Now that's a slim edge (1.8% difference), and the work is crude. I'm certainly not married to that conclusion, and I'm happy to say that the difference is eclipsed when we account for Pujols being the superior baserunner and fielder, but I can't see how WARP comes to such a dramatically different conclusion --- looking a batting alone --- one that pretty much unambiguously disqualifies Howard.

metsmarathon Nov 20 2006 08:02 PM

(edgy, you mean win shares, right, and not WARP?) the best i can do is say that i agree with you. howard and pujols were close enough with their bats to make the difference in playing time bring them to about a draw, offensively. at least based on everything i can really look to to tell a difference between the players. since there are no real baserunning stats other than SB & CS, its hard to say how much better a baserunner albert is than howard, and i'd guess hat its not enough to make up for the difference in win shares. ditto the strikeouts versus GIDP difference between the players. as near as i can tell, there's not much difference between albert pujols and ryan howard, offensively. defensively, howard has a much lower fielding percentage and zone rating, and since those are about the best metrics we have in fielding measurement, other than our eyes, he's nowhere near as good as pujols. according to baseball prospectus, there's a 32 run difference between ryan howard at first and albert pujols. according to win shares and the hardball times, there's less than half a win difference between the two players' glovework. it makes no sense to me. the one thing i can take away from almost all of this is that albert pujols is at least as good if not better both offensively and defensively than ryan howard, and he's somehow not the mvp. ... based on the hardball times' figurings... prince fielder is the second best firstbaseman in the NL, and delgado is about 6th best, just ahead of todd helton. BP's figurings on wins above replacement players may have me scratching my head sometimes when it comes to defense, but when i compare them to win shares, it seems like i like their results better.

metsguyinmichigan Nov 20 2006 08:08 PM

Elster88 wrote: ="G-Fafif"] ="metirish"]Some no doubt will say it's northeast bias... Yet not quite north enough or east enough for my tastes. It's not necessarily an argument against Howard, whose numbers were hard to ignore (obviously) and whose impact on the Phillies getting as close as they did was enormous, but I wonder if anybody else has ever... *Won a Gold Glove *Won a Silver Slugger *Started in the All-Star Game *Tied his franchise's record for home runs in a season *Broke his franchise's record for runs scored in a season *Played on the team with the sport's best record ...and finished as low as fourth in the MVP voting. Then again, I wonder if anybody has ever done those six things in the same season, period. Wow. You sure as hell convinced me Greg (sc = 0). Not to mention he won the Gold Glove in CF. I'd start a "Carlos was robbed" thread, but after the abuse in the Willie thread I'll refrain! :) I do think he deserved to be much higher than fourth. Sometimes the MVP becomes the "most home runs" award, though Mark McGwire would disagree....

metsmarathon Nov 21 2006 09:53 AM

singularly outlandish numbers typically trump overall better seasons in the eyes of many a voter, i think. "jeez, the guy hit 58 home runs! how could he not be the MVP?"

Edgy DC Nov 21 2006 10:33 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Nov 21 2006 03:58 PM

Phirst Phillie winnier since Schmidt?

OlerudOwned Nov 21 2006 03:30 PM

Steven A. Smith somehow tries to make Howard's MVP case by dragging race into it, then comes off as ignorant himself with gems like "But the reality is the talent that is Pujols, while fairly unique, is a dime a dozen in the laundry list of Latin talent that has invaded baseball". As always, [url=http://firejoemorgan.blogspot.com/2006/11/introducing-dr-frank-quietly.html]FJM is on the case[/url].

metirish Nov 21 2006 03:47 PM

WOW,but that was a pile of hot dung form Smith....

Edgy DC Nov 21 2006 03:51 PM

That's some good stuff. What's FRAR?

metirish Nov 21 2006 03:53 PM

] Fielding Runs Above Replacement. The difference between an average player and a replacement player is determined by the number of plays that position is called on to make. That makes the value at each position variable over time. In the all-time adjustments, an average catcher is set to 39 runs above replacement per 162 games, first base to 10, second to 29, third to 22, short to 33, center field to 24, left and right to 14.

G-Fafif Nov 21 2006 05:07 PM

Edgy DC wrote: I think being on a playoff team is irrelevant. In fact, the Gold Glove, deserved by Beltran or not, is too much a byproduct of the visiblity of being on a playoff team and the visibility of being a slugger, so that's made less relevant also. Unto themselves, a Gold Glove or a playoff berth do not necessarily add up to MVP status. If they did, Doug Flynn and Rafael Santana are owed some votes. But taken together, Beltran's accomplishments -- not so much the fielding and slugging awards per se (not bestowed until after MVP balloting) but what they represent about his performance (and his defense was legitimately standout, so this wasn't lazy "let's give it to a good hitter" assignation) -- provide a snapshot of an extraordinarily valuable player. The playoff team component indicates his performance was not in the service of stats alone. This isn't an argument to take away Howard's hardware so much as mystification that a player of Beltran's caliber on a team of the Mets' caliber (visible to all) didn't at least finish ahead of Lance Berkman or rate a stray second-place vote from some renegade writer.