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Morneau,Morneau ,Morneau ,Justin Morneau

metirish Nov 21 2006 02:06 PM

AL MVP

Edgy DC Nov 21 2006 02:10 PM

Alex Rodriguez's sucktastic play undermined Derek Jeter's candidacy. How can they not see it? Oh, how?!

metirish Nov 21 2006 02:13 PM

Useless trivia....name the last Twins player to win MVP?

Edgy DC Nov 21 2006 02:16 PM

Carew and Zoilo Versailles? Killebrew won one, but I can't remember if that was before or after Versailles. His name is so timeless, it's hard to pin him down.

Johnny Dickshot Nov 21 2006 02:27 PM

MFY fans ("Probably the worst choice in the history of the award" ... right, on, Kirk Gibson...) have already decided it's a conspiracy and forgotten their own guy got an MVP a year ago and they spent the year booing him.

Willets Point Nov 21 2006 02:30 PM

Edgy DC Nov 21 2006 02:31 PM

For the record, I think they got this one wrong also.

Johnny Dickshot Nov 21 2006 02:35 PM

Oh,, bad voting, but not for slighting Jeets as much as overvaluing Morneau where Maurer was prolly the better choice of the 3. Eh. MVP voting is almost always ridiculous.

Willets Point Nov 21 2006 02:38 PM

It's ridiculous. It's not even funny.

seawolf17 Nov 21 2006 02:44 PM

Who gives a crap? F Jeter. What was so hot shit about his season? He hit .343? Who cares? BA sucks. He was second in the league in runs? I didn't see Grady Sizemore get any MVP support, and Sizemore's numbers kicked Jeter's numbers up and down the field. His primary qualification is that he'd never won an MVP before, which is bullshit. Again... F Jeter. Congrats to Justin Morneau.

metirish Nov 21 2006 02:45 PM

Edgy DC wrote: Carew and Zoilo Versailles? Killebrew won one, but I can't remember if that was before or after Versailles. His name is so timeless, it's hard to pin him down. Rod Carew won in 1977 Zoilo Versalles won in 1965 Harmon Killebrew won in 1969 good call. edit - full name.....Zoilo Casanova (Rodriguez) Versalles

Edgy DC Nov 21 2006 02:46 PM

It's funny, I didn't see consensus builiding around him. Morneau was definitely the fourth or fifth Most Valuable Player. On the Twins.

seawolf17 Nov 21 2006 02:49 PM

Johnny Dickshot wrote: MFY fans ("Probably the worst choice in the history of the award" ... right, on, Kirk Gibson...) have already decided it's a conspiracy and forgotten their own guy got an MVP a year ago and they spent the year booing him. First of all, F MFY fans (except you, Silver). Second, you're totally right, JD; except that A-Rod isn't "their own guy," remember? But Jeets is.

metirish Nov 21 2006 03:17 PM

I think the writer that gave Jeets the sixth place vote got it right... http://baseballwriters.org/awards/2006/2006_AL_mvp.html

OlerudOwned Nov 21 2006 03:22 PM

Pronk played 129 games and had better numbers than most of the AL. Kudos to whoever gave him a 2nd place vote.

Edgy DC Nov 21 2006 03:24 PM

It was gutsy and out-there. I'm not sure I could pull the trigger to give him kudos. He slugged a ton, but a mere 129 games, almost excusively at DH, has to hurt a candidacy.

Rotblatt Nov 21 2006 03:30 PM

Awesome. I was so sure it would be Jeter. Morneau in no way deserved the MVP this year, but whatever. Honestly, I'd have probably voted for Santana.

OlerudOwned Nov 21 2006 03:32 PM

Edgy DC wrote: It was gutsy and out-there. I'm not sure I could pull the trigger to give him kudos. He slugged a ton, but a mere 129 games, almost excusively at DH, has to hurt a candidacy. Don't get me wrong, I don't think Hafner should've won, but it's nice to see him get some recognition. He may be the best hitter in the AL right now.

metirish Nov 21 2006 03:41 PM

I was wondering who Pronk is......weird nickname.

Frayed Knot Nov 21 2006 04:16 PM

2006 AL MVP Voting Player 1st 2nd 3rd Pts Justin Morneau, Twins 15 8 3 320 Derek Jeter, Yankees 12 14 -- 306 David Ortiz, Red Sox -- 1 11 193 Frank Thomas, A's -- 3 4 174 Jermaine Dye, White Sox -- 1 2 156 Joe Mauer, Twins -- -- 3 116 Johan Santana, Twins 1 -- 5 114 Travis Hafner, Indians -- 1 -- 64 Vlad Guerrero, Angels -- -- -- 46 Carlos Guillen, Tigers -- -- -- 34 Close vote, although I kind of expected even more of a log-jam up there. Rational arguments could be made for any one of half-dozen guys and I expected more different 1st place votes instead of all of them (save one)going to just two guys. I'm happy enough over it - not simply that Jeter didn't win but because I hated the way the debate was being framed by fans and by many in the media. - some were treating it as some sort of lifetime achievement award that needed to go to Jeter to "make up for" the times he didn't win. - and then others not only played the "clutch" card but acted as if somehow Jeter has a monopoly on that skill. It's as if one of they're treating a player's "Jeter-ness" as one of the characteristics needed for the award and - looky here - Jeter turns out to be the most Jeter-like of them all. P.S. And just be glad you didn't hear the recently concluded M&MD "discussion" with the voter (from Chicago I think) who voted Jeter 6th. Suffice to say it was a blindingly maddening exercise in illogicity.

Edgy DC Nov 21 2006 04:22 PM

On whose part? Mike's? Dog's? The voter's? Yours?

Nymr83 Nov 21 2006 04:25 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Nov 21 2006 04:29 PM

Yankee fans will of course cry and whine about it (though if Arod had had exactly the year Jeter had and came in 2nd they'd be saying he's way too high up) i'm not really sure what to think other than being glad that a Yankee didn't win it. i'm more than a bit shocked that Mauer was left out of the top 10 entirely by 3 writers. 7 writers left Santana off entirely, which annoys me even more because the award is for the best player not the best hitter, to leave him off entirely because that doesnt fit your conception of the award is bullshit, if you cant follow the rules give up your ballot (also, if you voted to give Palmiero that GG give up your ballot.) i counted 19 guys under 10 pts in the AL with only 8 in the NL, do the AL writers pimp their hometown guys more? is this just coincidence and different in past years?

metirish Nov 21 2006 04:28 PM

Brian Law is pissed... ] Morneau awful choice for AL MVPposted: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 | I think all carping about the NL MVP voters getting their choice wrong must immediately cease. The AL's voters couldn't even correctly identify the most valuable Twin, never mind wrapping their heads around a whole league. The reality of baseball is that a great offensive player at an up-the-middle position is substantially more valuable than a slightly better hitter at a corner position. And when that up-the-middle player is one of the best fielders at his position in baseball, there's absolutely no comparison. Joe Mauer was more valuable than Justin Morneau this past season. If you don't understand that, you don't understand the first thing about baseball. Mauer had a 54-point edge in OBP over Morneau, which overwhelms the advantage Morneau had in slugging percentage (a 52-point edge). But Mauer won the Gold Glove for his position this past year, and he is arguably the best-fielding catcher in the game when you consider all aspects of catching. Catchers who field and hit the way Mauer does are extremely valuable, just as shortstops who hit like Derek Jeter does and play passable defense are extremely valuable. First basemen who hit like Morneau just shouldn't win MVP awards in years when there are Mauers and Jeters and other candidates to choose from. Even by the counting stats that the dinosaur voters have favored for as long as the MVP award has existed, Morneau's season wasn't all that impressive. He tied for 12th in the AL in homers. He was second in RBI -- seven behind David Ortiz -- and just nine ahead of the least clutchy player to ever be clutch, Alex Rodriguez. He was seventh in batting average, a few miles south of Mauer and Jeter, the other major MVP candidate. It's hard to fathom why any voter would put Morneau at the top of his ballot with so many obviously better candidates -- Mauer, Jeter, Ortiz, Jermaine Dye, the unanimous Cy Young Award winner Johan Santana, or the criminally neglected Carlos Guillen (the best player on the AL pennant winner) -- and in reality, more than half of the voters did just that. If you don't watch the games, fellas, don't fill out your ballots. Incidentally, the following voters should be removed from the voting process permanently: • The guy who put Jeter sixth. • The guy who put Mauer 10th ... and the five guys who left him off their ballots entirely. • The three guys who put Frank Thomas second. • The guy who put A.J. Pierzynski 10th. And while we're at it, how the heck did Thomas -- the third-best designated hitter in the American League -- end up fourth in the voting? It's just more evidence that the bulk of this year's voters don't understand what is actually valuable in baseball: Players who hit and play good defense up the middle are the most valuable position players in the game. The NL only had one such candidate this year (Carlos Beltran), so it's understandable that that award went to a corner bat. It's time for some of these voters to put their fantasy-baseball mentality -- one that assumes that RBI measure something important and that OBP is a hip-hop song from the early 1990s -- aside and to take the MVP vote seriously again.

Frayed Knot Nov 21 2006 04:31 PM

The duo just pounced on the guy from the second he picked up the phone for not realizing how clutch the Jete-guy is, in part basing it on single game and/or single AB examples and the whole thing quickly fell apart into a series of disconnected statements, contradictions and accusations. For all their faults, M&MD can actually be good interviewers but, at times, have their minds made up on a particular issue before discussion even starts at which point they're really not interested in what the subject has to say. This was one of those times; Jeter's GW-RBIs against Boston in August during that sweep sealed up both the division and the award and anyone who doesn't know that is a clueless dolt.

Nymr83 Nov 21 2006 04:32 PM

good article. i agree that leaving mauer off should get you the permanent boot, but (what i'm sure was a CHW writer) putting his hometown guy 10th doesnt terribly bother me as long as he was fair at the top (of course he probably had Thomas 2nd too)

G-Fafif Nov 21 2006 05:18 PM

Listening for a moment to Michael Kay yesterday, he criticized the $17 mil a year Soriano is getting because Jeter makes $18.9 mil a year and Soriano "isn't half the player Derek Jeter is." I'm glad he cleared that up.

metsmarathon Nov 21 2006 05:37 PM Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Nov 22 2006 10:32 AM

i'm not anywhere near which is worse - frank thomas finishing fourth, or michael young finishing thirty-third... the votees, with some meaningless statisticals attributed to them: player Games IP BRAR FRAR PRAR WARP3 BWS FWS PWS WS Morneau 157 63 44 8.6 25.5 2 27 Jeter 154 73 39 12.1 28 4.6 33 Ortiz 150 88 0 9.4 29.3 0.1 29 Thomas 137 53 0 5.8 21.9 22 Dye 145 69 27 10.4 23.7 2.8 26 Mauer 140 64 34 10.6 21.3 9.5 31 Santana 34 233.67 0 4 102 10.7 -0.1 25 25 Hafner 129 88 -1 9.2 25 25 Guerrero 156 69 2 7.8 23 2.2 25 Guillen 153 60 16 8.2 21.5 4.3 26 Sizemore 162 72 25 10.7 21.8 3.7 25 Thome 143 72 0 7.8 25.9 26 Rodriguez 154 66 2 7.4 22.4 2.4 25 Giambi 139 67 -4 6.7 23.1 0.2 23 Damon 148 48 13 6.7 18.1 3.7 22 Verlander 30 186 0 0 68 6.5 -0.1 15.5 15 Suzuki 161 53 29 9 20.1 4.1 24 Nathan 64 68.33 0 -1 73 8 17.1 17 Ramirez 130 76 -3 7.7 26.9 2.1 29 Tejada 162 61 37 10.7 18 5 23 Ibanez 159 56 14 7.7 24 3.1 27 Cano 122 44 38 9 13.3 4.5 18 Konerko 152 59 13 8 20.7 1.9 23 Ordonez 155 39 14 5.8 16.9 3 20 Wells 152 55 18 8 19 6.4 25 Crawford 150 49 8 6.3 21.4 2 23 Rivera 63 75 0 2 69 7.9 13.8 14 Rogers 34 204 -1 2 56 5.5 -0.2 14.9 15 Wang 34 218 -1 5 65 7 -0.1 17.7 17 Glaus 153 44 23 7.4 12.5 3.8 16 Matthews 147 48 16 7.1 17.5 4.2 22 Pierzynski 139 20 21 4.5 9 4.4 13 Young 162 40 55 10.6 18.5 7.7 26 young is certainly one of the ten best players in the AL, and he finishes with as many votes as AJ Pierzynski? crikey!

metsmarathon Nov 21 2006 05:43 PM

.

MFS62 Nov 21 2006 07:09 PM

This vote was interesting. Maybe the voters just looked at the power numbers. Or they didn't get to see too much of Jeter, who arguably had a deserving year. Or, the out of towners were swayed by the numberous articles about Jeter's anti-MVP-like dealings with A-Rod. Quien sabe? Later

SteveJRogers Nov 21 2006 08:09 PM

metirish wrote: I was wondering who Pronk is......weird nickname. Travis Hafner. Based on him being a labeled a "Project" type coming up, I'm not entirely sure where the "nk" came out from though

MFS62 Nov 21 2006 08:31 PM

Someone told me there is a candy bar called "Pronk" sold in Cleveland. Not sure if it was named after him, or he got the nickname after the candy. Later

OlerudOwned Nov 21 2006 09:03 PM

Project and Donkey ]He is often referred to by the nickname "Pronk", which combined two nicknames "Project" and "Donkey," originally suggested by former teammate Bill Selby during spring training of 2003. -Wikipedia

metirish Nov 22 2006 02:09 PM

Gaffner on Jeter... ] Jeter don't care 'bout stinkin' metal November 22, 2006 Maybe this is Derek Jeter's destiny: to be the best baseball player of his generation to never win an MVP award. The way it seems to be Mariano Rivera's peculiar lot in life to be the best reliever in the game's history but not have an official piece of hardware to ever prove it. Jeter got beaten in a squeaker for the AL MVP yesterday, losing out to Twins first baseman Justin Morneau by 14 points and three first-place votes. And while this wasn't remotely the major-league snub that Willie Randolph suffered last week in the manager-of-the-year voting, Yankees fans will still cry foul, spewing venom all over the airwaves, outraged that their beloved shortstop and captain was cruelly robbed because of some wicked combination of anti-New York, anti-Yankee, and anti-Jeter bias. Which, in fact, might be true. It's simply that the fans here wanted so much to embrace a Jeter MVP year this winter, as much as they refused to ever wrap their arms around Alex Rodriguez's MVP in 2005, after another of his postseason no-shows. It will always be the difference between the two Yankees superstars — Jeter, the insider, forever loved and cheered no matter what he does, no matter what his transgressions or achievements; A-Rod, the outsider, booed for the slightest of reasons, eyed with nothing but suspicion at every turn, MVP winner or not. The reason is no more complicated than Jeter always finding a way to show up when it counts, while A-Rod keeps disappearing, one big moment after the other, coming up so much smaller than the sum of his supremely talented parts. And because, rightly or wrongly, the fans sense that in the end A-Rod is all about A-Rod, a guy who cares more about MVPs and hitting titles and accumulated homers than about World Series rings. To Jeter, it's clear personal things have never meant a thing to him. Never will. So you will not hear any bitter words from Jeter today or tomorrow, or in the days after that, about not being named the MVP or about being better than Morneau or about being cheated out of the only thing he doesn't own yet. Not only is that not Jeter's style. It's not the way he views the game or his career. He has never defined himself by chunks of metal on a pedestal, has never measured his worth by the numbers. "The numbers," he has reminded me so many times, "don't often tell the whole story." And he's right, of course. I mean, how do you possibly measure with a mere stat his Famous Flip in Game 3 of the 2001 AL division series, his Famous Dive into the Stands in 2004, his Famous November 10th-Inning Game-Winning Homer in the 2001 World Series? How do you capture fully Jeter's amazing consistency for 12 seasons? And how does something like what Tim McCarver once told me, that "Jeter is the best baserunner in the game, especially going from first to third," get truly reflected anywhere? What's interesting this time around is that for once, after all these years, the numbers came close to matching the totality of the player. He hit .343 and almost copped the AL batting title. He had a .417 on-base percentage. He scored 118 runs and knocked in another 97. He stole a career-high 34 bases and won the Gold Glove at short. And with men in scoring position, he batted an outrageous .381, nearly a 100 points higher than Big Papi and 60 points higher than Morneau. All of which means a lot more to Yankees fans than to Jeter himself. He'll leave the outcry to them, as he just keeps doing what he does so well, the small and the large and everything in between to win games, not awards. Unlike A-Rod, Jeter knows who and what he is, secure in his own skin, doesn't need any pat on the back from the fans or the media or an awards committee or anyone else to tell him what kind of job he's doing. He doesn't need the MVP stamp of approval the way A-Rod does so desperately. Everything Jeter is about is on the fingers of one hand. The four that are crowned with Yankees championship rings. That's his lasting legacy — even if his destiny, strangely, doesn't include anything else. Michael P. Geffner's column appears regularly. Derek Jeter/Case File Age: 32 Years in the bigs: 12 Greatest achievements: 1996 AL rookie of the year, 2000 World Series MVP, 2000 All-Star Game MVP, seven-time AL All-Star, three-time AL Gold Glove, four World Championships, five seasons with 200 or more hits (more than any shortstop in major-league history), Yankees team captain from June 2003 to present. Career highlights The Famous Flip: Seventh inning of Game 3 of the 2001 ALDS against the A's, when in one motion he retrieved outfielder Shane Spencer's errant relay throw in foul territory and shovel-passed it to catcher Jorge Posada, who tagged out Jeremy Giambi at the plate. The Famous Dive: On July 1, 2004, with the score tied against the Red Sox in the 12th inning, Jeter sprinted for a popup and made a running one-handed catch that forced him to smack into the left-field wall and topple headfirst into the stands. Jeter emerged — ball still safely in glove — bruised and bloodied, with lacerations on his chin and cheek. The Famous Homer: His game-winning, 10th-inning shot in Game 4 of the 2001 World Series against the Diamondbacks that came four minutes after midnight on Nov. 1, briefly earning him the nickname of "Mr. November." Greatest career dis by his peers: Voted the most overrated player in the game by a Sports Illustrated poll of 470 players this past September. Carlos Beltran was second and Alex Rodriguez third. Said a smiling Jeter about the dubious distinction: "I don't care. I guess anything I do now is a plus." Greatest career dis by a teammate: Outfielder Chad Curtis, who in August of 1999 got in Jeter's face for playfully sparring with then-Seattle shortstop Alex Rodriguez on the fringes of a nasty brawl between the Yankees and Mariners. In the clubhouse afterward, Curtis loudly accused Jeter of, in essence, being a bad teammate. Jeter never said a word to Curtis again and Curtis was dealt to the Rangers before the end of the year. The Yankees' message: Mess with Jeter and you're as good as gone. To this day, the normally unflappable Jeter gets visibly heated at the mere mention of Curtis' name. Loves: Being on the baseball field, talking about his teammates, women who appear on the cover of Maxim or FHM, eating ordered-in Chinese food while watching a flick on his DVD player. Hates: Questions about his private life, talking about himself, selfish players, being mentioned in gossip columns, losing at anything ("If you're going to play at all, you're out to win," he once said. "Baseball, board games, playing Jeopardy, I hate to lose."). Main squeeze: Actress Jessica Biel, voted the "sexiest woman alive" by Esquire in 2005. Past main squeezes: Mariah Carey, actresses Jordana Brewster, Scarlett Johansson and Jessica Alba, MTV personality Vanessa Minnillo (currently dating Jessica Simpson's ex hubby, Nick Lachey), and Indian actress and former Miss Universe Lara Dutta. Major strength: Utterly cool under pressure. Major weakness: Guarded to a ridiculous degree, to where he trusts virtually no one (Even Jeter admits that he wishes he could get rid of this trait). "When people come at me, my first reaction is to wonder what their motive is," he once said. Pet peeve: Teammates who talk too much to the media, or the media talking too long to one of his teammates. "What are you doing, writing a book about this guy?" is Jeter's favorite line, which is code for both parties to end the interview ASAP. Telling comment: After Joe DiMaggio died, Jeter said of him: "He was the type of guy that kept to himself. Even if you hear his old teammates talk, he just showed up and played; he didn't really say too much. He kept his private life private. I think when people don't know a lot about you, there is this certain mystique, and I think people had that sense about him." Nicknames: Jete, DJ Idol growing up: Dave Winfield. Made Jeter want to be a Yankee. Had Winfield's poster on his bedroom wall. Best friend on the Yankees: Jorge Posada. The two are inseparable. Biggest career controversy: Nearly four years ago, Steinbrenner ripped Jeter in spring training, claiming that his shortstop was more interested in staying out late club-hopping than working out early. Jeter was, understandably, irked by the criticism and totally disputed it publicly. The two later made up and parodied the feud with a Visa Card commercial. Trivial facts: His junior high school yearbook in Kalamazoo, Mich. dubbed him "most likely to play shortstop for the New York Yankees" ... was interviewed for a 2005 segment of 60 Minutes by the recently deceased Ed Bradley ... is reportedly Bob Dylan's favorite baseball player ... hosted Saturday Night Live in 2001 and in one skit dressed as a woman, playing Alfonso Soriano's wife, Candice ... went 155 plate appearances with the bases loaded before he finally hit his first grand slam on June 18, 2005 ... nearly drafted by the Reds in 1992 ... in 2002, his mitt was stolen from his locker by then-teammate Ruben Rivera and sold for $2,500 on the black market. Family: Father Charles, a drug counselor, is African-American; mother Dorothy, an accountant, is Irish-American. Has one sibling, a sister named Sharlee. Typical of what people say about Jeter: "He doesn't go up there thinking negatively. Failing doesn't scare him." - Joe Torre. Bottom line: Jeter shows up when it matters most, doing the little, the big, and everything in between to win games. It's the critical reason why Yankee fans love him to no end and loathe A-Rod with a passion. "The tougher the situation, the more fire Derek gets in his eyes. You can't teach that," Torre once said. Reader Reaction

Iubitul Nov 22 2006 04:55 PM

ok - it took me a day, but I finally got the thread title - nicely done...

metsmarathon Nov 22 2006 07:42 PM

my toe! my toe!! my toe!!! stepped on my toe!!!! i figured there was something to get, but only now on being prompted, do i think i've got it.

Elster88 Nov 22 2006 08:16 PM

Can someone explain it to the nitwits like myself?

metirish Nov 22 2006 08:24 PM

Game seven of the Eastern Conference Finals against the New Jersey Devils in 1994......at 4:24 of the second overtime at Madison Square Garden, Matteau scored on a wraparound on the left side of New Jersey's goaltender leading then rangers announcer Howie Rose to scream into the mic....."Matteau, Matteau, Matteau,Stephane Matteau...and there's one more hill to climb baby and it's Mount Vancouver"....one of the most famous goals in playoff history and a call that still gives me chills.......

metirish Nov 22 2006 08:40 PM

I love youtube....here it is

ScarletKnight41 Nov 22 2006 09:44 PM

Thanks irish! I was following the Rangers back then (it was fun living in Manhattan at the time - I remember the cars all honking their horns when the Rangers won the whole thing <g>), but I don't follow hockey closely enough to remember those kinds of details.

metirish Nov 22 2006 11:03 PM

Probably my fave call in all of sports......

Frayed Knot Nov 22 2006 11:16 PM

Funny thing about that call is that when Howie went on the radio the next morning to talk about the game (he was still working for FAN at the time - tho this was as a guest on someone else's show) he had just woken up and so was hearing his own call for the first time. His first reaction was to be somewhat embarrassed by it. He thought he had lost his cool and overdid it a bit, reacting as a fan rather than describing. Eventually, of course, it became the call for which he was most famous and when he left FAN a few years later to take the job with the (gasp!) Islanders that was what the majority of fans called him about during his final week on the station.

metirish Nov 22 2006 11:19 PM

Didn't know that FK,thanks...Howie is a great announcer in hockey and baseball....as a Rangers fan I would take him over Sam Rosen...and yeah maybe he came accross more as a fan in that call but it had been so long coming for the rangers that it would be hard to fault him on that.....

Frayed Knot Nov 22 2006 11:33 PM

It's kinda like the Bobby Thompson call. Russ Hodges was the Giants announcer and he became famous for his somewhat out of control call on the 'Shot Heard Round the World'. Meanwhile, Dodger announcer Red Barber - who had the longer and more distinguished career and came from the school of; 'just report the action, don't become part of it' - gave a much more sober 'just the facts ma'am' type of call which has been largely lost to history. Barber reportedly hated Hodges's take on it and wasn't at all pleased that the "less professional" one became the signature soundtrack.

metirish Nov 22 2006 11:40 PM

Russ Hodges call might be my sacond fave ever...I love it...when I first heard it at it was when the HOF did a traveling exhibit at the Met IIRC..I stood and listened to that call for an hour....it gives me chills.

Elster88 Nov 23 2006 10:33 AM

metirish wrote: Game seven of the Eastern Conference Finals against the New Jersey Devils in 1994......at 4:24 of the second overtime at Madison Square Garden, Matteau scored on a wraparound on the left side of New Jersey's goaltender leading then rangers announcer Howie Rose to scream into the mic....."Matteau, Matteau, Matteau,Stephane Matteau...and there's one more hill to climb baby and it's Mount Vancouver"....one of the most famous goals in playoff history and a call that still gives me chills....... Ah. That explains why I'm clueless. I don't really believe that hockey exists.

Nymr83 Nov 23 2006 11:13 AM

Hockey has alot in common with the sports we love, for example FOX has found ways to fuck it up, from highlighting the puck to covering the lower 3rd of the screen with advertisement for FOX shows in a 3-2 game with little time left.

metirish Nov 27 2006 12:15 AM

Good article here.... ] Reporters doing voting: Write-on, or bad idea? BY JIM BAUMBACH Newsday Staff Writer November 26, 2006 The e-mail inbox of Chicago sportswriter Joe Cowley has been flooded ever since the American League MVP announcement earlier this week, and a few of the 500 messages have included some downright disgusting words from Yankees fans. A few choice e-mails that made Cowley cringe: "Hope your cancer comes back." "Hope you have a short life." What did Cowley do to deserve such hatred? The White Sox beat reporter for the Chicago Sun-Times put Derek Jeter sixth on his MVP ballot - lower than any other voter. It didn't cost Jeter the award, but it quickly made Cowley the poster boy for the anti-Jeter vote. "People want to write stuff like that, e-mail stuff like that, that's fine. That's part of it. It's no big deal," he said. "But when you read stuff like that, you want to step back and remind these people this is a baseball game." Some sports editors believe this is only the latest example why reporters should not vote for awards such as MVP and Cy Young. They don't believe a reporter should be a household name because of his vote. "I wouldn't want one of my reporters in that position," Los Angeles Times sports editor Randy Harvey said. Cowley's week included many interviews with reporters and radio shows, including a contentious exchange with WFAN's Mike and the Mad Dog. All because of his vote for an award, not his job as a reporter. "Voting on awards like this puts reporters in the position of making the news, and that's not our job," said Tom Jolly, sports editor of The New York Times. "Our job is to report on the news, not to make it." And they're not the only sports editors who feel that way. This is the 75th year baseball writers have voted for the MVP, but the pool of voters clearly is declining. The New York Times and Washington Post have not allowed their reporters to vote for two decades because of ethical issues, and during the last two years, they have been joined by The Los Angeles Times, Atlanta Journal and Constitution, Baltimore Sun, South Florida Sun-Sentinel and Palm Beach Post, along with The Associated Press. Newsday allows its reporters to vote but did not have a vote in this year's MVP race. "While we've always done it, it's definitely something we're reconsidering," Newsday sports editor Hank Winnicki said. There are two votes from every American League city for the awards, and the votes are disbursed to newspapers on a rotating basis. In turn, the decision by newspapers to pull out has caused a problem for the Baseball Writers Association of America. In a small market such as Atlanta, it's impossible to replace the votes that would have been placed by the Atlanta Journal and Constitution reporters. "That's essentially a one- newspaper town, so I have to assign five national writers to be on the committees for down there," said Jack O'Connell, longtime secretary and treasurer of the BBWAA. "I try to keep it as regional as possible [in choosing replacement voters], and I make sure that it's strictly national writers." Because there are several other one-newspaper markets, there is potential for a major problem if newspapers continue to pull out. "Obviously, if the Houston Chronicle, the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel, the St. Louis Post-Dispatch come up with similar things," O'Connell said, "we'll have serious problems in those chapters." But not every sports editor agrees with the latest industry trend. Joe Sullivan, sports editor of The Boston Globe, is one of the fiercest defenders of allowing baseball reporters to vote on the sport's biggest awards. "This is a franchise we shouldn't surrender," he said. "Our expertise produces the best results. I think we would do a disservice by not voting. The argument is made that somehow it is a conflict of interest in the sense we're voting on the people we cover and we shouldn't make the news ... If The Boston Globe started giving out a most valuable player award, then we would be making news." Sullivan and other supporters of the polling process point to the lack of an obvious alternative system. But Jolly believes that shouldn't be a newspaper's concern, anyway. "I feel in a lot of these cases a reporter is put in the position of doing a job for a different organization," he said. "If Major League Baseball players and the league want to designate an MVP and these kind of awards, why don't they go ahead and do it with their own system?

metsguyinmichigan Nov 27 2006 12:59 PM

Yankee-hack Tom Verducci got a little testy because his boy Jeter didn't get the award. Verducci's world is so Yankee-centric that you can't take him seriously. His rant about the postseason being horrible was so transparent -- if the Yankees aren't involved, Tommy loses interest -- that it was good for a belly laugh. His little Jeter tirade here from si.com is nearly as good. "Can somebody please wake up the baseball writers before they give out more dumb MVP awards based on RBIs? Both Derek Jeter and Joe Mauer (who, incredibly, was not even listed on five ballots!) were robbed when the writers gave the award to Justin Morneau. Morneau hit .235 as late into the season as June 8 and, despite the propaganda of a huge second half, actually was outhomered by Jeter (7-6) down the stretch (after July 31). Jeter, the far more consistent player, drove in greater percentages of runners from second and third than Morneau (who had 25 more such runners than Jeter). And their VORP rating? Jeter ranked third in baseball, behind only Albert Pujols and Ryan Howard of the NL, and Morneau ranked 26th! And the importance of defense for a shortstop and catcher far outweigh the defensive quotient of a first baseman. It's sad to think too many baseball writers still vote the old, unsophisticated way: check the home run and RBI leaders for a player on a first-place team." Hey Tommy, want some cheese with that whine?

Edgy DC Nov 27 2006 01:15 PM

It would help if he gave more than a passing nod to Mauer. And there's nothing old about being unsophisiticated --- at least sophistication as far as recongnzing that contributions are more dear when they come from up-the-middle defenders. In the fifties, 13 of the 17 MVP awards that went to non-pitchers (yes, they were sophisticated enough to consider pitchers players) went to players who played catcher, second, short, or center.

Vic Sage Nov 27 2006 02:45 PM

I could understand it going to Ortiz, Ramirez, Hafner or even Dye, if they were going on pure offensive production. And i could understand it going to mauer or Jeter, if one were to factor in defense, winning and "intangibles". But Morneau, while he had a terrific 2nd half, did not have the offensive numbers of the 1st group. His numbers were actually comparable to Jeter and Mauer, and so you'd have to go with an up-the-middle position player over a 1st baseman, if the numbers are the least bit comparable. I think its ok for writers to vote for awards... just not STUPID writers.

metsmarathon Nov 27 2006 04:12 PM

ok... i hate myself for doing this... i just kinda sorta made a case for morneau, and it doesn't really require too much in the way of mental gymnastics and statistical calisthenics. basically, i looked at production after the all star game. took the 100 AL players with the most at bats. then i ranked them by: R H 2B 3B HR RBI TB BB SO SB CS OBP SLG AVG OPS and took the average. justin morneau came in second, behind vlad guerrero. jeter was third. those results held up pretty well when i cut the list down to top 75, 50, and finally when i cut it down to the players with the 25 most at bats, justin morneau came out first, mostly because vlad finally dropped off hte list. anyways... these are the results of the rankings. 100 75 50 25 26 V Guerrero OF 1 1 1 7 J Morneau 1B 2 2 2 1 67 D Ortiz DH 3 3 4 D Jeter SS 4 4 3 2 60 C Guillen SS 5 6 9 G Sizemore OF 6 5 4 3 21 M Teixeira 1B 8 8 6 5 35 R Sexson 1B 8 7 5 5 M Cuddyer OF 9 9 7 4 61 C Lee OF 10 12 48 A Rodriguez 3B 11 11 8 38 J Dye OF 12 10 10 28 N Markakis OF 14 13 9 81 M Teahen 3B 14 77 R Cano 2B 15 51 F Thomas DH 16 14 31 L Overbay 1B 17 15 11 64 J Mauer C 18 21 37 J Rivera OF 19 17 12 2 M Young SS 20 16 13 6 this doesnt account for any amount of weighing one stat more than another, or trying to estimate actual worth to a team, or defense, or playing for a contender/winner. its just me being intentionally somewhat dumb, and seeing what "the numbers" tell me. and after the all star break, you could almost kinda sorta say that if justin morneau wasn't the most productive offensive player, then he was the second most productive, and therefore could be considered a legit player to vote for as the league's MVP. and to be honest, i was really expecting this "analysis" to turn out differently. i'm gonna totally do this again for the NL... and of course, it is paramount to my self-interest to say that i do not consider this to be a good way to determine who the MVP is or should be, only that its a method that crossed my mind. if i could get at league-wide stats that only showed me post all star game in close and late situations, then i'd really be onto something that'd tell me if hte voters were really voting for what they claim to be voting for, whether or not i agree with them.

metsmarathon Nov 27 2006 04:22 PM

and in the NL, my super-dumb methodology yields a surprise winner - Garret Atkins! WTF!!! 100 75 50 25 7 G Atkins 3B 1 1 1 1 13 A Pujols 1B 2 2 2 2 19 A Ramirez 3B 3 3 3 3 2 J Rollins SS 4 5 5 5 28 R Howard 1B 5 4 4 6 R Furcal SS 6 6 6 4 27 M Cabrera 3B 8 7 7 33 R Durham 2B 8 8 9 23 M Holliday OF 9 9 8 7 3 C Utley 2B 10 11 11 8 47 L Berkman 1B 11 10 10 64 C Beltran OF 12 13 5 H Ramirez SS 13 12 12 6 73 L Scott OF 14 20 24 A Gonzalez 1B 15 14 13 9 21 O Hudson 2B 16 15 15 11 9 T Helton 1B 17 17 17 12 11 A Soriano OF 18 17 14 10 44 B McCann C 19 18 16 55 A LaRoche 1B 20 20

Nymr83 Nov 27 2006 05:30 PM

]basically, i looked at production after the all star game. took the 100 AL players with the most at bats. then i ranked them by: R H 2B 3B HR RBI TB BB SO SB CS OBP SLG AVG OPS and took the average. theres many problems with this but here are a few: why only post all-star? if its because you believe the MVP is the guy who helped histeam down the stretch then you should eliminate players on bad teams and teams that coasted. weighing "CS" equal to any of these categories is probably a bad idea, you'd be better off with "net steals" in place of SB and CS. TB and SLG essentially double counts as does H and AVG (and to a lesser extent BB and OBP once you've already counted AVG) SO are arguably meaningless, if you're going to punish the guys who strike out you need to reward those who dont bounce into DPs (not coincidentally the same guys) OPS is obviously OBP+SLG so i dont know why you'd count it again seperately unless you're trying to give extra weight to them (a value judgment i'd agree with but still) i'd probably narrow it down to: R, RBI, OBP, and SLG. if you put a gun to my head and asked for 4 more i'd use PA, SB-CS, OPS+, and something that took defensive position into account if not defense itself (maybe using defense spectrum to assign a different multiplier to each position)

SteveJRogers Nov 27 2006 09:06 PM

metirish wrote: Gaffner on Jeter... ] Jeter don't care 'bout stinkin' metal November 22, 2006 Maybe this is Derek Jeter's destiny: to be the best baseball player of his generation to never win an MVP award. The way it seems to be Mariano Rivera's peculiar lot in life to be the best reliever in the game's history but not have an official piece of hardware to ever prove it. No love to the Rolaids/DHL Fireman/Reliever of the Year which Mariano is a multiple time winner of, and has been around since the late 1970's. While I understand someone's point in not recognizing anything other than the Big Three (MVP, CY and ROY) and to some extent the Gold Gloves and Manager of the Year have attained "conversation worthy" status, but lets not act like those are the only MLB recognized awards. Along with "What, we're supposed to care about this now?" attitude about the Comeback Player of the Year when Giambi was nominated for the AL (not a singular MLB award as many in the media seemed to think last year when they argued Griffey OVER Giambi) this lack of caring about the "lesser" MLB awards (and there actually was a time when TSN awards actually carried some weight as well) is certainly food for thought for why is ANY of this worthy of our time and discussion if people just pick and choose which awards are considered "official pieces of hardware" to them. To me it's all fun debate and even if there is no love for the Reliever award, the Aaron award, Silver Sluggers, Comeback, Clemente and other awards given out, and even if you still follow the TSN awards, it is nice when a Met picks one up.

Edgy DC Nov 27 2006 09:35 PM

Fan-voted awards are silly things. Period. Did the editors mean "medal" when they wrote "metal" or is "metal" some sort of collective noun for awards?

metirish Nov 27 2006 09:38 PM

Is Jeter really the best baseball player of his generation to never win an MVP?.....Piazza anyone...

Edgy DC Nov 27 2006 09:47 PM

Thank you. I'd love a Piazza.

SteveJRogers Nov 27 2006 09:49 PM

Edgy DC wrote: Fan-voted awards are silly things. Period. Did the editors mean "medal" when they wrote "metal" or is "metal" some sort of collective noun for awards? I'm guessing it's a euphemism for Hardware.

SteveJRogers Nov 27 2006 09:52 PM

metirish wrote: Is Jeter really the best baseball player of his generation to never win an MVP?.....Piazza anyone... ManRam also comes to mind in Jeter's own LEAGUE!

metirish Nov 27 2006 09:53 PM

Manram???........Manny....well yeah there's a good one....good call Steveo

Edgy DC Nov 27 2006 09:57 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Nov 27 2006 11:46 PM

Is Pedro Martinez in Derek Jeter's generation? 'Cuz he's been darn good.

Frayed Knot Nov 27 2006 11:44 PM

"Can somebody please wake up the baseball writers before they give out more dumb MVP awards based on RBIs? " On this point, I agree with Verducci.

TheOldMole Nov 28 2006 01:20 AM

Red Barber was more emotion-stricken than he wanted to let on, for all his great professionalism. He had to get off mike. "And the Giants have won the National League pennant...and now here's Connie."

iramets Nov 28 2006 03:22 AM

="Frayed Knot"]"Can somebody please wake up the baseball writers before they give out more dumb MVP awards based on RBIs? " On this point, I agree with Verducci. "Stop me before I kill again!" I don't get why the standard for voting on awards ever fell away from the players themselves. Or maybe I can answer my own question: Because players did not want responsibility. What can a player or his supporters say, after all, when his peers consider him unworthy of an honor? They're brainless and casual observers gorged on beer and Crackerjax? No. They're corrupt and venal swine who hate us because we give bad interviews sometimes? No. They have to suck it up when the players themselves vote or else they're calling themselves a bunch of stupid idiots. Besides I'm sure the Players' Association would want a few million tossed into the pot for filling out a ballot. MLB's motto: "MVP Voters: The best we can get to fill out a ballot for free." Ya gets what ya pay for.

Edgy DC Nov 28 2006 09:03 AM

I'm guessing that the entire body of players wouldn't necessarily be a sophisticated unbiased group either. What's difficult to deal with is that so many people aren't able to seperate genuine criticism of this vote with less than genuine scaremongering about anti-Jeterness in the voting body. If Jeter wasn't involved in this election, Morneau is no better and no worse a choice.

metsmarathon Nov 28 2006 09:51 AM

Nymr83 wrote: ]basically, i looked at production after the all star game. took the 100 AL players with the most at bats. then i ranked them by: R H 2B 3B HR RBI TB BB SO SB CS OBP SLG AVG OPS and took the average. theres many problems with this but here are a few: why only post all-star? if its because you believe the MVP is the guy who helped histeam down the stretch then you should eliminate players on bad teams and teams that coasted. weighing "CS" equal to any of these categories is probably a bad idea, you'd be better off with "net steals" in place of SB and CS. TB and SLG essentially double counts as does H and AVG (and to a lesser extent BB and OBP once you've already counted AVG) SO are arguably meaningless, if you're going to punish the guys who strike out you need to reward those who dont bounce into DPs (not coincidentally the same guys) OPS is obviously OBP+SLG so i dont know why you'd count it again seperately unless you're trying to give extra weight to them (a value judgment i'd agree with but still) i'd probably narrow it down to: R, RBI, OBP, and SLG. if you put a gun to my head and asked for 4 more i'd use PA, SB-CS, OPS+, and something that took defensive position into account if not defense itself (maybe using defense spectrum to assign a different multiplier to each position) ="that idiot metsmarathon"] its just me being intentionally somewhat dumb, and seeing what "the numbers" tell me. believe me when i say that i do not believe that the wacky tabulations i did would in any way determine the most worthy MVP, nor do i believe that the methodology i chose to use isn't at all deeply flawed. all i did was "look at the numbers" as a dumb voter might. i wanted essentially to widen the search to include enough stats that it wouldn't necessarily be prejudiced towards power numbers to the exclusion of other contributions. and i didn't want to think about it too much either! as to the specific points, well, i only looked at post-ASG because i don't think the voters care about pre all star, and primarily focus on august and september. since i don't know where to find "stats after date X" i chose to add in a smattering of july games. it was more about modeling "dumb writer" than modeling what i believe. the players on losing teams are important to the mix because you'll never hear somehting like "player X had the highest batting average of any player on an AL contender since june 8th" but you will hear that "justin morneau had the highest batting average in the AL since june 8th" its more about identifying valid candidates than it is in determining a clear winner. if teh top guy is on a team that's so bad that it'll preclude him from getting any votes, move down the list! SB-CS doesn't give you any way to differentiate between a guy who goes 10-0 in steal chances, or a guy who goes 20-10. my way prolly doesn't either. not that my way does it necessarily better.... either way, it basically violates the premise of my methodology, to just "look at the numbers". sure, i violate it later with OPS, but that's a bit more common a stat than net steals, and might be more likely to be used by a voter than net steals. granted, i don't think they're gonna look at CS either, but lets pretend. the argument for using both counting and rate stats is that i can give credit for both quantity and quality. i personally don't like my inclusion of hits into the mix; and OPS does give me a chance to add extra weight in a sneaky fashion. i do think it important to give credit to a guy who gets a lot of doubles and triples, instead of just smacking home runs, and just looking at OPS doesn't afford me that option. OPS+ i can't get at for post all star game, and i also can't get it in a nice handy sortable table that i can copy and paste into excel. i'm not willing to do taht kind of work for a quick dumb exercise. :) once i get into OPS+, or defense, i get into a place where i might as well just look at WARP, or VORP, or win shares, or Runs Created. and i'm working on that one in a wholly separate exercise. and to be honest, instead of ranking everybody from 1-100, i should be putting them all on a 100 point scale, with the top stat getter as 100, and the bottom stat-getter as 1, adding them all up, and then taking the highest point total. it would better account for players who separate tehmselves from teh pack, or bunches of players around the same stat level. but it still wouldn't come close to naming the player most deserving of the MVP. well, maybe a little closer...

Frayed Knot Nov 28 2006 11:15 AM

Having the players vote would be a really, really, bad idea IMHO. As already mentioned, the coach/manager vote for Gold Glove awards is probably more ridiculed than the ones the writers cast and the coaches aren't as likely to have as many hidden biases and petty reasons behind their votes as the players are, particularly when you consider that some of them have a financial interest in the results. "I'd be lying to say there's not an anti-Jeter sentiment in the Midwest. It's there. But the fallacy here is that the writers would allow that type of feeling among fans get in the way of their voting for the MVP… We're the ones who make a mockery of guys who don't play the game right. More than anybody, we appreciate a guy like Jeter, and the way he plays the game. But it's not like he got beat by some joke of MVP pick. Morneau was a legitimate pick." --Joe Christenson, Minneapolis Star-Tribune Twins beat reporter "To me, Jeter is a special player. I just think Morneau sustained a higher level of production." --BBWAA voter Mark Gonzales of the Chicago Tribune

iramets Nov 28 2006 05:51 PM

="Frayed Knot"]the coaches aren't as likely to have as many hidden biases and petty reasons behind their votes as the players are, particularly when you consider that some of them have a financial interest in the results. You understand that the players are prohibited from voting for their own teammates? There are all sorts of ways to encourage fair and reasonable voting (not that baseball's ever tried any of them.)

Frayed Knot Nov 28 2006 10:30 PM

]You understand that the players are prohibited from voting for their own teammates? You understand that managers are too and it still hasn't stopped DH's (Palmiero) and mediocre fielders (Jeter) from getting multiple Gold Glove awards. Players play. Asking them to also be the stewards of the game isn't a good idea.

Nymr83 Nov 28 2006 10:32 PM

i really thought the writers gave Palmiero the GG, can you please confirm it was the managers?

patona314 Nov 28 2006 10:39 PM

="Frayed Knot"]"To me, Jeter is a special player. I just think Morneau sustained a higher level of production." agreed, it's not morneau's fault for being young and in a small market

Frayed Knot Nov 28 2006 10:41 PM

]i really thought the writers gave Palmiero the GG, can you please confirm it was the managers? Yes, GG awards are voted on by managers/coaches - 1 vote per team I believe - and that vote can't be for your own guy. The votes for RoY, MoY, CY & MVP are given to 2 writers (on a rotating basis) per city that has a team in that league. HoF votes go to any BBWAA member who has spent at least 10 years covering baseball.

Nymr83 Nov 29 2006 12:11 AM

but when did GGs get turned over to the managers, i thought it was after/as a result of Palmiero.

metsmarathon Nov 29 2006 08:58 AM

from [url=http://www.baseballlibrary.com/baseballlibrary/ballplayers/G/Gold_Glove_Award.stm]www.baseballlibrary.com[/url] ]First awarded in December 1957 by the Rawlings Sporting Goods Company, the Gold Glove Award honors the top fielders at each position in each league. Honorees, originally selected by a panel of distinguished sportswriters, were chosen by fellow players starting in 1958. Since 1965, managers and coaches have decided the winners. Beacuse of the subjective nature of the voting, the awards have often been criticized for honoring players based on reputation rather than statistics. Perhaps the most egregious example was the Gold Glove awarded in 1999 to the Rangers' Rafael Palmeiro, who had played just 28 games at first base and had just been named the league's outstanding DH. The most-decorated honorees are Brooks Robinson and Jim Kaat, both of whom won sixteen Gold Gloves in their careers.

Frayed Knot Nov 29 2006 09:06 AM

AFAIK, it's always been the managers voting for GG awards - and certainly was when Palmiero won the year he DH'd almost exclusively

Edgy DC Dec 20 2006 09:32 AM

I guess it's OK to comment here that there's a peck of articles today reporting that Darryl Strawberry is pushing Jeter to embrace A-Rod and bring him into the circle.

MFS62 Dec 20 2006 09:52 AM

83 got me thinking: ]why only post all-star? if its because you believe the MVP is the guy who helped histeam down the stretch then you should eliminate players on bad teams and teams that coasted. A few years ago(2? 3?), when The Yankees jumped out to a huge lead early in the season, Sheffield and Giambi were hurt, and many of the other regulars got off to slow starts. But Hidecki Matsui carried the team on his back until the others got better/ returned. Toward the end of the season, he wore down (and still finished with very good stats) and Sheffield got hot to overtake Matsui in overall numbers. But the team coasted, and its big lead even declined by year's end. Come voting time, the voters picked Sheffield over Matsui, but if he hadn't done what he did and when he did it, the Yanks might not have won their division. And if you had watched that team throughout the entire season, there should have been no doubt as to which player was more valuable to the overall success of the team. Just saying that to me, sometimes the when is the most important thing to be considered. Later