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Going down the "Baseball is dying" path (split)

SteveJRogers Dec 01 2006 03:02 PM

Johnny Dickshot wrote: To be fair, Bud's other legacies will be enormous spikes in the popularity and profitability of the game that enriched all its participants but the fans. Not to go down the "Baseball is dying" path again, but not sure if you really can call growth in the New England/New York corridor, St Louis and Chicago a true enormous spike in popularity. Baseball will NEVER supplant COLLEGE football (never mind the NFL) in the South and West, Golf (both PGA and LPGA) and NASCAR really are breathing down baseball's neck, and a strong case can be made that both college and pro hoops have long supplanted baseball as the second biggest sport in the country. Fans still haven't come back from 1994, and it's at a point where I really don't think they will return, even in places like Philly (and the Phillies have had a few seasons, especially the last two where they were battling until the final week of the season) and KC. It's more like Selig didn't have the sport completely implode on his watch, not "enormous spikes in the popularity" The profitability I'll give you somewhat, but that is more baseball joining trends with the other major sports. Throw back apparel, internet services including audio and video content, satellite radio and the MLB Extra Innings package on DirecTV and other providers, MLB certainly isn't a trailblazer in any of those areas, it's more "Oh well they are doing it, why don't we?"

metsmarathon Dec 01 2006 03:16 PM

going back to 1986, the only time the phillies had a higher attendance than they had in the past two years was when they won the division, and came oh so close to winning it all. in fact, in the 8 years i just looked at, they averaged maybe less than 2 million, and in the past two years, its been more like 2.7 million. attendance-wise, they seem to be doing rather fine.

Edgy DC Dec 01 2006 03:21 PM

I like the part where those attractions he defines as ahead of baseball will never be supplanted, but those behind baseball are an imminent threat.

sharpie Dec 01 2006 03:23 PM

I lived for 11 years in the Bay Area and COLLEGE football (why the caps?) wasn't/isn't a speck on the horizon of baseball even though Cal and Stanford have a big rivalry. Are you implying that UCLA/USC are more popular than the Dodgers? I don't think so. The South isn't good baseball territory, never has been. Golf? Please.

Johnny Dickshot Dec 01 2006 03:23 PM

Steve J., I disagree with almost everything in your post and I'd be happy to show where its wrong or mis-stated but I'm very busy. I just want on the record that my original comment stands and is very accurate.

SteveJRogers Dec 01 2006 03:35 PM

metsmarathon wrote: going back to 1986, the only time the phillies had a higher attendance than they had in the past two years was when they won the division, and came oh so close to winning it all. in fact, in the 8 years i just looked at, they averaged maybe less than 2 million, and in the past two years, its been more like 2.7 million. attendance-wise, they seem to be doing rather fine. Okay, then tell me why with the Phillies, and the eventual MVP, were in the throes of a wild card race, and even had a sliver of hope of the Mets pulling a Cardinal-esque meltdown (they did of course, but the Phillies were too far back) the talk on WIP and the other station down there, and the newspapers were all focusing on the Eagles, and even the Sixers and Flyers? Situation was reversed, it'd be all Mets all the time here in New York, not in Philly.

seawolf17 Dec 01 2006 03:36 PM

Gotta figure Philly's attendance spike comes from the spanking-new ballpark.

Edgy DC Dec 01 2006 03:37 PM

I can't work out the meaning of that last paragraph.

vtmet Dec 01 2006 03:38 PM

Edgy DC wrote: I can't work out the meaning of that last paragraph. last paragraph of which post?

Edgy DC Dec 01 2006 03:39 PM

"Situation was reversed, it'd be all Mets all the time here in New York, not in Philly." It has something to do with caring about what Steve hears on the radio.

seawolf17 Dec 01 2006 03:41 PM

Once again, you can't assume that the morons on sports-talk radio are representative of the larger sports-fan body of an area.

Edgy DC Dec 01 2006 03:43 PM

]That means baseball is on a decline, hence the imminent threats and the fact that baseball will never touch those that are ahead. By what terms? You've established none of this. And why should I care? Do Americans suddenly not have enough discretionary income to blow on more than one piece of shit? The size of the landfills tells me no. Landsakes, it's December and fools on Sports Radio are talking about basketball.

SteveJRogers Dec 01 2006 03:44 PM

Edgy DC wrote: I can't work out the meaning of that last paragraph. Mets are in a Wild Card hunt all September after making a "White Flag" trade before the 7/31 deadline, even to the point where they might JUST be able to sniff blood coming from the NL East frontrunner, but lose out on the very, VERY last day of the season, plus have Beltran or Wright just have a MONSTER end the season with MVP talk. Yeah, you bet the Giants, Jets and pre-season Knicks, Rangers, Devils, Nets and Islanders are taking backseats. Not so much in Philly.

sharpie Dec 01 2006 03:46 PM

]The NFL's place is very secure, and try talking October baseball in SEC country. Or in Southern California, Texas, Nebraska, Columbus, Ann Arbor or and other place were College Football is King. I bet it was pretty easy to talk Tiger baseball this past October. Those games looked like sellouts to me. Also, I've spent many hours talking October baseball in Southern California. Other than alumni, no one I know ever talks about college football there. This is a moronic argument. College football is played once a week at (mostly) a different time of the year from baseball. In places where there is a big college and no baseball team (such as Nebraska), of course that is the focus.

Edgy DC Dec 01 2006 03:49 PM

SteveJRogers wrote: ="Edgy DC"]I can't work out the meaning of that last paragraph. Mets are in a Wild Card hunt all September after making a "White Flag" trade before the 7/31 deadline, even to the point where they might JUST be able to sniff blood coming from the NL East frontrunner, but lose out on the very, VERY last day of the season, plus have Beltran or Wright just have a MONSTER end the season with MVP talk. Yeah, you bet the Giants, Jets and pre-season Knicks, Rangers, Devils, Nets and Islanders are taking backseats. Not so much in Philly. Take it easy. It's December. There's no back seat. The season has been over for several weeks. Turn the radio off.

SteveJRogers Dec 01 2006 03:55 PM

Edgy DC wrote: ]That means baseball is on a decline, hence the imminent threats and the fact that baseball will never touch those that are ahead. By what terms? You've established none of this. NASCAR and Golf are the fastest growing sports in terms of TV audience in the country. FACT. Baseball has been declining for years. Football is the unquestioned king, either pro or college. Baseball is in a decline, there really isn't much in the way of disputing that. TV viewership is down, and if you want to use attendance, if you take out the two NY teams, Boston, Chicago and St Louis, you'll find that baseball really hasn't "returned" the way it is projected. ]And why should I care? Do Americans suddenly not have enough discretionary income to blow on more than one piece of shit? The size of the landfills tells me no. No I suppose in the grand scheme you don't have to. Same way hockey fans don't care that they are the "Little Sport That Could" right now, same way fans of a low rated TV show fight bitterly for their show to survive another season despite objections from it's network. If you like something then yeah the lack of popularity shouldn't be a concern. I'm just saying you can't say Selig's reign has seen "enormous spikes in the popularity and profitability" when the success is essentially smoke and mirrors.

Edgy DC Dec 01 2006 03:58 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Dec 01 2006 03:59 PM

]FACT. Baseball has been declining for years. Please define your terms or stop making this claim. Christ, Steve, baseball isn't going to be cancelled because of lack of viewer interest. Fact, as you say.

SteveJRogers Dec 01 2006 03:59 PM

sharpie wrote: ]The NFL's place is very secure, and try talking October baseball in SEC country. Or in Southern California, Texas, Nebraska, Columbus, Ann Arbor or and other place were College Football is King. I bet it was pretty easy to talk Tiger baseball this past October. Those games looked like sellouts to me. Also, I've spent many hours talking October baseball in Southern California. Other than alumni, no one I know ever talks about college football there. This is a moronic argument. College football is played once a week at (mostly) a different time of the year from baseball. In places where there is a big college and no baseball team (such as Nebraska), of course that is the focus. Oh really, then why does ESPN cover college football practices in the Spring and Summer? Why did I once hear Chris Simms back in his college days be interviewed in MID JULY? Why does ESPN run it's "In The Huddle" NFL radio show every week, all year? Clearly there is a national desire for both pro and college football talk year round, you don't really get that with baseball except New York and Boston

SteveJRogers Dec 01 2006 04:01 PM

Edgy DC wrote: ]FACT. Baseball has been declining for years. Please define your terms or stop making this claim. Christ, Steve, baseball isn't going to be cancelled because of lack of viewer interest. Um, Fact. Neither is the NHL, but then again notice how the national games are pretty much a dinosaur? It's all pretty regionalized. We pretty much won't see anymore of the "Ryne Sandberg Game" in Chicago 1984 when he hit the two homers of Sutter in an NBC "Game of The Week"

Edgy DC Dec 01 2006 04:04 PM

So, you're not going to define your terms. If you acknowledge that the season isn't going to be cancelled due to lack of interest, please don't compare the game a dying TV show. Yeah, people's focus in baseball is largely built around their team. That's not that new.

SteveJRogers Dec 01 2006 04:09 PM

From [url]http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2005/09/05/8271412/index.htm[/url] ]This, race fans, is the new world of NASCAR, the fastest-growing, best-run sports business in America--with the emphasis on business. Once the province of moonshine runners and good ol' boys, the sport has courted corporate America for decades. But NASCAR's recent explosion in popularity--and the establishment of its racetracks as big-time commercial venues--is unprecedented. Stock-car racing is now a multibillion-dollar industry. The second-most-watched sport on television behind pro football, NASCAR has seen its ratings increase by more than 50% since it inked a six-year, $2.4 billion network deal five years ago. The sport is on pace this year for its highest TV viewership ever; the last time a major professional sport set a new high was the NFL in 1981. Licensed retail sales of NASCAR-branded products have increased 250% over the past decade, totaling $2.1 billion last year alone (up from $1.3 billion in 2000). Nascar.com is one of the most highly trafficked sports websites. The NASCAR name is so hot that market research firm PSB picked it as the country's No. 2 brand for 2005, ahead of both Google and iPod (BlackBerry was No. 1).

SteveJRogers Dec 01 2006 04:11 PM

[url]http://www.faqfarm.com/Q/How_do_professional_sports_in_the_US_rank_in_popularity[/url]

SteveJRogers Dec 01 2006 04:16 PM

Six years old but after McGwire, Ripken and Sosa "saved the game" after the 1994 strike: [url]http://www.sportbusiness.com/news/135820/gallup-reveals-decline-in-baseball-s-popularity[/url] GALLUP REVEALS DECLINE IN BASEBALL?S POPULARITY Thu, 27/09/2001 - 23:00 American Football | Baseball | Basketball A Gallup poll conducted just before the start of the new baseball season has revealed that only 12 percent of US respondents chose baseball as their "favourite sport to watch". This represents a 1 percent drop from last year?s figures and a 9 percent drop in popularity since 1994. However, 56 percent of respondents said they are fans of major league baseball. This group of fans approved of innovations such as inter-league play, league-championship playoffs and the inclusion of wild-card playoff teams. But 58 percent said that players? salaries were a "change for the worse? with 79 percent saying that team owners should be allowed to institute a salary cap. Only the Yankees and the Braves recorded double digit ?favourite team? status among the respondents The poll concluded that American Football (28%) was the most popular sport to watch followed by basketball (16%).

TransMonk Dec 01 2006 04:16 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Dec 01 2006 04:18 PM

]NASCAR and Golf are the fastest growing sports in terms of TV audience in the country. FACT. Baseball has been declining for years. Football is the unquestioned king, either pro or college. Baseball is in a decline, there really isn't much in the way of disputing that. TV viewership is down, and if you want to use attendance, if you take out the two NY teams, Boston, Chicago and St Louis, you'll find that baseball really hasn't "returned" the way it is projected. Half of MLB's teams set local TV revenue records last season...in addition to attendence records. More than just NY, Boston, Chicago and St Louis. MLB.TV made $150 from me alone and SNY made a portion of my Direct TV bill last year. I paid for 9 Mets baseball tickets, 2 Mets caps, my dad got me a Wright jersey for my birthday...and I live in Wisconsin! Does NBA or PGA even often online services that offer all their games?

Edgy DC Dec 01 2006 04:17 PM

For the last time, I don't care how other sports are doing. More power to them, I guess, but I don't know who Chris Simms is. Other attractions expanding does not mean baseball is in decline.

sharpie Dec 01 2006 04:18 PM

Those NASCAR viewers weren't baseball viewers to begin with. The demographic is totally different. Heck, football viewership is down, is that evidence that the sport is dying? There's just a lot of choices for what to watch or pay attention to. Baseball of course doesn't command the level that it once did before there were all of those choices but to worry that people are watching golf or college football or whatever just isn't what matters.

SteveJRogers Dec 01 2006 04:24 PM

Not just idiots on sports radio who think this: [url]http://www.virginia.edu/uvatoday/newsRelease.php?id=939[/url] U.Va. Law Professor Asks, Is MLB Dropping the Ball? Oct. 30, 2006 – Fans of the St. Louis Cardinals celebrating their team’s victory in the 2006 World Series may be startled to hear G. Edward White pose a simple question: Has baseball struck out as America’s national pastime? In his 1996 book, “Creating the National Pastime: Baseball Transforms Itself, 1903-1953,” White examined the early 20th-century forces that shaped the sport. In recent years, the U.Va. law professor and baseball fan has observed developments that have damaged the game and threaten its place in American sports culture. White shared his concerns about “Baseball at the Crossroads” at a talk on Oct. 14 — the third of five “More than the Score” lectures organized by the Office of the Provost in collaboration with the U.Va. Alumni Association. The lecture series was created for alumni visiting Charlottesville for home football games on fall weekends. The talks are free and open to the public. White comes by his interest in sports honestly. He played in the outfield as an undergraduate at Amherst College. He has coached the girls’ soccer team at Charlottesville High School. And he has competed in doubles squash. But baseball holds a special place in his heart. In recent years, Major League Baseball has been flashing some encouraging signs. “Ballparks are to some extent full,” White said. “Winning teams fill the stands even though ticket prices are high. TV contracts continue to be written. The labor situation is stable.” But signs of trouble have emerged as well. One of them is competition from other sports. “Most schoolchildren today are not playing baseball as they were 50 years ago, some of them are playing football or basketball instead,” White said. “When I was in high school, there were no women’s sports. Soccer, lacrosse and tennis, which are popular now, weren’t offered then.” Another issue is the nature of baseball at a time when middle-class parents worry about their children’s tender psyches. “Baseball is not an attractive sport for many young people to play because the action is centered on the pitcher and the batter,” White said. “There is little motion on the field. There is a high level of difficulty. Baseball has a hard ball. A small bat. And the fielding and hitting are not intuitive. Most young children are not good at it and so they fail and they fail publicly. “Compare that with soccer,” he said. “The kids run around on a field. They’re largely anonymous. Some of the good kids break out of the pack. But no one is stigmatized in the same way that someone is striking out with everyone watching. It’s no surprise that soccer is a reflexive sports activity that professional people introduce their children to.” The result is that with fewer families introducing their children to the game, fewer adults have played the game. This affects the popularity of baseball as entertainment for adults. “The sport is now only one among many offerings,” White said. Add to that the lack of gender diversity in the game: baseball is played primarily by boys and men. “Compare that with soccer,” White said. “Girls are capable of playing soccer at a very high level, just as they play tennis or golf at a very high level. That’s another disadvantage – there are no professional women in baseball.” Other issues have a major impact on the game’s current popularity and hold implications for its future popularity as well. “The large market franchises have more purchasing power [for players] than the smaller markets,” White said. “The question of market size is not just the population attending games in person, but also those watching the games on TV and listening to the games on the radio. The Yankees get the largest revenues from TV, not just because it’s a large metro area, but also because of the cachet of the Yankees. New England cities pick up the Yankees as part of a cable package and that adds to the team’s revenues. “So, what’s the problem?” he asked. “Free agency. Nearly all players have contracts that expire after one, two or three years. Then the player is released and goes on the free agency market. Players have learned to go on the market after a very good year. Also, they have strong incentives to negotiate the terms of the next contract in a free agency year. Free agency means that when a contract ends the large market teams can outbid the small markets teams for free agents. It’s no surprise that the Yankees contend nearly every year.” Then, there’s the “s” word. Steroids. “Baseball could not have managed an issue less well than it did steroids,” White said. Citing the 1994 baseball strike and lockout, which resulted in the cancellation of the World Series for the first time in 90 years, he said, “The owners worried that fans would not come back to baseball. It was right about then that baseball players started to hit a lot of home runs. “The physical shape of baseball players changed,” he said, pointing to players like Mark McGuire, who broke Roger Maris’ single-season homerun record in 1998, and Barry Bonds, who is vying to break Hank Aaron’s career homerun mark of 755. “The number of home runs these players were hitting versus [their hitting percentages] early in their careers went up,” he said. “There were rumors about changes in their physical shapes.” But baseball as an industry did nothing. “The players union did not want testing,” White said. “The owners figured these home runs are putting people in the stands.” It got so bad that Congress held hearings, essentially telling the industry that if they didn’t do anything, Congress would impose legislation. So, the question is, what will baseball do? The answer is, it’s still not clear. “If you want to invalidate steroids records, how do you do that?” White asked. “The steroid problem is embarrassing for baseball and it is largely insoluble.” Yet another issue confronting the sport is its changing racial and ethnic composition. From the late 1940s to the mid-1970s, increasing numbers of African-American players appeared in the game. But beginning in the 1970s, those numbers began to fall and the number of Latinos began to rise. “The increase in Latinos is simply a result of baseball recruiting worldwide, particularly in Latin America,” White said. “These players, many coming from poor countries, have strong economic incentives to sign up at an early age. And the teams take their chances and sign these young players for relatively little money. That’s a nice part of the story of baseball – it’s more inclusive than it used to be and it’s more inclusive of Latin Americans than it used to be. But why have the number of African-American players declined? “There is competition from other sports for African-American players,” White said. “Football and basketball are more attractive to them. While the number of white players on NBA rosters and NFL rosters is very small, African Americans are flocking to those sports, dominating them. It is thought they can make more money in those sports.” The pity is that in recent years, baseball has tried to show it cares about African-American players. “[Major League Baseball] retired Jackie Robinson’s number (42) and they’ve been doing better recently in recruiting African-American managers,” White said. “But baseball is not doing a good job of selling itself to African-American males as a sport. And it is losing out on good athletes. And as a result the sport is not as representative of American society as it was.” Each of these issues is troublesome for the future of the sport. In his 1996 book, White predicted that the position of baseball in American sports would decline in the coming decades. Nothing he has seen since has changed his mind. “Baseball has been behind the curve,” White said. “It needs to be more ahead of the curve.” It’s as if the sport itself is in the bottom of the ninth inning, down by three, and the bottom of the lineup is coming up to bat. The odds are long, but in baseball, “it ain’t over ‘til it’s over.”

TransMonk Dec 01 2006 04:28 PM

White's obviously still trying to sell a book that is 10 years outdated.

Edgy DC Dec 01 2006 04:30 PM

More kids don't play baseball. True, we're raising a generation of fat pigs. I think we all know that. That in no way supports your thesis that baseball is dying nor even your subsequent contention that it is on the decline. Revenue disparities hurt baseball. I think we all know that. That in no way supports your thesis that baseball is dying nor even your subsequent contention that it is on the decline. Fewer blacks are playing baseball. I think we all know that. That in no way supports your thesis that baseball is dying nor even your subsequent contention that it is on the decline. There is no disagreement that baseball could do better in a lot of areas, and Selig has failed on multipe fronts. That does not mean that baseball is dying.

Vic Sage Dec 01 2006 04:40 PM

]It is thought they can make more money in those sports that statement right there discredits this guy. Baseball is the only sport without a salary cap, and the high end salaries (not to mention greater length of career and relative lack of serious injuries), makes baseball a much better career choice than any other sport. While its true that black athletes have gravitated to basketball and, to a lesser extent, football, rather than baseball, that development has more to do with greater inner city access to those sports. And if your a 300 pound guy, your more likely to excel at football (or maybe as a center in basketball) than you are in baseball, which is more of a skill game than a game of pure athletic ability. baseball is a harder sport, not a less remunerative one.

SteveJRogers Dec 01 2006 04:40 PM

Edgy DC wrote: For the last time, I don't care how other sports are doing. More power to them, I guess, but I don't know who Chris Simms is. Other attractions expanding does not mean baseball is in decline. Then what do you want then? "Baseball's numbers are declining" "Yeah, but so are everyonelse's" "Other attractions are exanding" "Well good for them then" Look, the NBA has been in a decline for years as well, I don't see the NBA closing up it's doors and certaintly it's merchandise is selling like hotcakes as well, be it games, jerseys, DVDs, ect. I'm just saying that the "growth" of baseball is all a bunch of smoke and mirrors. Baseball ceased to be "The National Pastime" People in NY really can't tell you who Craig Biggio is or Todd Helton or Mike Sweeney. Does that matter? Well no, but there was a time where people in NY could tell you who a Bobby Allison was, or a Norm Cash, Jim Maloney or any of the top stars on the other teams. Hell there was a time where one really could list the entire lineups of every team. There was no need for a KTE thread in 1960, 1970 because everyone knew their enemies! And don't say "Yeah but there are more teams now" because when New Yorkers knew who Nate Colbert was, or a Mike Hegan, there were 24 teams. Sure now it's 30, but 24 different lineups, or even go back to 16 different lineups is still alot of lineups to recall no matter how you slice it

Edgy DC Dec 01 2006 04:45 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Dec 01 2006 04:47 PM

="SteveJRogers"]"Baseball's numbers are declining" "Yeah, but so are everyonelse's" You haven't made the former statement and I haven't responded with the latter one. So please stop making stuff up. If you're claiming now that Major League Baseball's numbers are declining, I'll ask you to document it.

SteveJRogers Dec 01 2006 04:46 PM

Vic Sage wrote: ]It is thought they can make more money in those sports that statement right there discredits this guy. Baseball is the only sport without a salary cap, and the high end salaries (not to mention greater length of career and relative lack of serious injuries), makes baseball a much better career choice than any other sport. While its true that black athletes have gravitated to basketball and, to a lesser extent, football, rather than baseball, that development has more to do with greater inner city access to those sports. And if your a 300 pound guy, your more likely to excel at football (or maybe as a center in basketball) than you are in baseball, which is more of a skill game than a game of pure athletic ability. baseball is a harder sport, not a less remunerative one. Fair point there. But I think the point that the guy was trying to make was more that the money is right there up front. Sure you have signing bonuses now thanks to the Van Poppels of the world, but still it takes a few years before you even get to your first million dollar payday in baseball, while in basketball and football, you have multi-millionaires signed right out of the draft. There is no floor, or minor league system, that you work your way through.

SteveJRogers Dec 01 2006 04:50 PM

="Edgy DC"] ="SteveJRogers"]"Baseball's numbers are declining" "Yeah, but so are everyonelse's" You haven't made the former statement and I haven't responded with the latter one. So please stop making stuff up. If you're claiming now that Major League Baseball's numbers are declining, I'll ask you to document it. ]Six years old but after McGwire, Ripken and Sosa "saved the game" after the 1994 strike: http://www.sportbusiness.com/news/135820/gallup-reveals-decline-in-baseball-s-popularity GALLUP REVEALS DECLINE IN BASEBALL?S POPULARITY Thu, 27/09/2001 - 23:00 American Football | Baseball | Basketball A Gallup poll conducted just before the start of the new baseball season has revealed that only 12 percent of US respondents chose baseball as their "favourite sport to watch". This represents a 1 percent drop from last year?s figures and a 9 percent drop in popularity since 1994. However, 56 percent of respondents said they are fans of major league baseball. This group of fans approved of innovations such as inter-league play, league-championship playoffs and the inclusion of wild-card playoff teams. But 58 percent said that players? salaries were a "change for the worse? with 79 percent saying that team owners should be allowed to institute a salary cap. Only the Yankees and the Braves recorded double digit ?favourite team? status among the respondents The poll concluded that American Football (28%) was the most popular sport to watch followed by basketball (16%).

seawolf17 Dec 01 2006 04:52 PM

Boy, I hate that argument. You know how many kids come into my office or stop by our table at college fairs thinking they're jumping to the NBA or the NFL out of college? Literally hundreds. How many of them have made it? I'd bet zero. So this whole "make more money in the other sports" thing is hooey, Steve, so don't fall for it. There are probably hundreds more young people making money -- minor league money, but still money -- playing baseball than there are playing other sports. If baseball isn't growing, then where is all this money coming from? I don't think the Seibu Lions accepted $51 million worth of smoke from John Henry and his crew. And I don't think George Steinbrenner pays his employees in mirrors. I'm not saying there isn't a big market/small market disparity, but to "blame" other sports for whatever perceived problems you think baseball has is crap.

Edgy DC Dec 01 2006 07:57 PM Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Dec 18 2006 11:02 AM

Steve, I appreciate you thinking it's dire that baseball isn't people's favorite thing as often as it used to be, but there are many more things these days, and more leisure time. Cripe, do you see how much porn is readily available? The important things: people are buying tickets and watching games, more than they used to. Polling numbers are not the bottom line.

TransMonk Dec 04 2006 09:08 PM

Just to add something to Steve's side argument (which really should have been split into another thread, because the original discussion was rather interesting), here is some hard data rather than numbers coming out of sports talk radio, wikipedia pages or a biased book from 10 years ago: [url]http://www.harrisinteractive.com/harris_poll/index.asp?PID=622[/url] These are the Harris polls of Americans and their favorite sports from 1985-2005. It even provides some breakdowns by race, income, age and education. In support of Steve's argument, it does show a 9% drop in baseball's popularity over the past 20 years as well as a 9% increase in the NFL's popularity. It also shows an increase in NCAA Football as well as auto racing. However, baseball still is, and has been for the past 20 years, the 2nd favorite sport among American sports fans according to this poll. The poll doesn't say it, but I would venture to say that baseball had more worldwide appeal than the NFL...and baseball's worldwide appeal is very minute compared to much more popular competitive sports that American's know little to nothing about like soccer, rugby, cricket, table tennis and kickboxing.

metsmarathon Dec 05 2006 12:13 AM

one important take-away from that harris poll - baseball is the number one sport in two of the most influencial and growing-in-influence demographics - echo boomers and hispanics. 18-27 year olds love baseball, and the nations' growing hispanic population loves baseball. it ain't so dire is it? also, i'd like to know how this poll looks if you factor in those who only follow ONE sport (25% of respondents), as well as a poll that asks "what sports do you follow" because that would tell a lot more about the popularity of baseball and its pervasity (i made up a word) in our sporting society.

martin Dec 05 2006 05:06 AM

nascar isnt really continuing to pick up ground on baseball and other sports. usa today: "NASCAR's growth slows after 15 years in the fast lane" http://www.usatoday.com/sports/motor/nascar/2006-11-14-nascar-cover_x.htm "estimates from NASCAR reports show crowds have decreased in a third of the races this season." arent the attendance numbers for baseball rising? nascar seems to be a counterexample for your argument.

metsmarathon Dec 05 2006 08:51 AM

also, and i think edgy had a similar point - what does it matter if people like football better? that seems to be a bigger problem for basketball and hockey than it is for a sport that it barely competes against for viewership and attendance.

Edgy DC Dec 05 2006 09:04 AM

Once upon a time, the Lords of Sport decided that NASCAR should stay below the Mason-Dixon Line, and the NHL above. But then a huge economic expansion hit America in the nineties, people had more money to spend, and both of these sports soon saturated their marketplaces. They both expanded into each other's territory and both got richer, rather than put each other out of business, because richer people consume more crap.

Frayed Knot Dec 05 2006 09:47 AM

Seeing as how I've been hearing about the death of baseball since at least the time I was hearing about the death of Paul McCartney - and with about as much accuracy - forgive me if this issue doesn't get me too excited. Plus, the whole baseball v football argument is a lot like the ones cat & dog owners have which each other about which species is smarter. In both cases, each side loads up on examples which are unique strengths of that particular sport/critter all of which shows nothing more profound than the discovery that dogs are much better at being dogs than cats are and vice versa.

Willets Point Dec 05 2006 10:01 AM

Best baseball/football comparison ever, by George Carlin: ]Baseball is different from any other sport, very different. For instance, in most sports you score points or goals; in baseball you score runs. In most sports the ball, or object, is put in play by the offensive team; in baseball the defensive team puts the ball in play, and only the defense is allowed to touch the ball. In fact, in baseball if an offensive player touches the ball intentionally, he's out; sometimes unintentionally, he's out. Also: in football,basketball, soccer, volleyball, and all sports played with a ball, you score with the ball and in baseball the ball prevents you from scoring. In most sports the team is run by a coach; in baseball the team is run by a manager. And only in baseball does the manager or coach wear the same clothing the players do. If you'd ever seen John Madden in his Oakland Raiders uniform,you'd know the reason for this custom. Now, I've mentioned football. Baseball & football are the two most popular spectator sports in this country. And as such, it seems they ought to be able to tell us something about ourselves and our values. I enjoy comparing baseball and football: Baseball is a nineteenth-century pastoral game. Football is a twentieth-century technological struggle. Baseball is played on a diamond, in a park.The baseball park! Football is played on a gridiron, in a stadium, sometimes called Soldier Field or War Memorial Stadium. Baseball begins in the spring, the season of new life. Football begins in the fall, when everything's dying. In football you wear a helmet. In baseball you wear a cap. Football is concerned with downs - what down is it? Baseball is concerned with ups - who's up? In football you receive a penalty. In baseball you make an error. In football the specialist comes in to kick. In baseball the specialist comes in to relieve somebody. Football has hitting, clipping, spearing, piling on, personal fouls, late hitting and unnecessary roughness. Baseball has the sacrifice. Football is played in any kind of weather: rain, snow, sleet, hail, fog... In baseball, if it rains, we don't go out to play. Baseball has the seventh inning stretch. Football has the two minute warning. Baseball has no time limit: we don't know when it's gonna end - might have extra innings. Football is rigidly timed, and it will end even if we've got to go to sudden death. In baseball, during the game, in the stands, there's kind of a picnic feeling; emotions may run high or low, but there's not too much unpleasantness. In football, during the game in the stands, you can be sure that at least twenty-seven times you're capable of taking the life of a fellow human being. And finally, the objectives of the two games are completely different: In football the object is for the quarterback, also known as the field general, to be on target with his aerial assault, riddling the defense by hitting his receivers with deadly accuracy in spite of the blitz, even if he has to use shotgun. With short bullet passes and long bombs, he marches his troops into enemy territory, balancing this aerial assault with a sustained ground attack that punches holes in the forward wall of the enemy's defensive line. In baseball the object is to go home! And to be safe! - I hope I'll be safe at home!

metsguyinmichigan Dec 05 2006 10:11 AM

Nonsense! Thomas Boswell of the Washington Post nailed it. Why Is Baseball So Much Better Than Football? by Thomas Boswell (1987) # Reasons Why Baseball is so Much Better than Football by Thomas Boswell 1 Bands. 2 Half time with bands. 3 Cheerleaders at half time with bands. 4 Up With People singing "The Impossible Dream" during a Blue Angels flyover at half time with bands. 5 Baseball has fans in Wrigley Field singing "Take Me Out to the Ball Game" at the seventh-inning stretch. 6 Baseball has Blue Moon, Catfish, Spaceman and The Sugar Bear. Football has Lester the Molester, Too Mean and The Assassin. 7 All XX Super Bowls haven't produced as much drama as the last World Series. 8 All XX Super Bowls haven't produced as many classic games as either pennant playoff did this year. 9 Baseball has a bullpen coach blowing bubble gum with his cap turned around backward while leaning on a fungo bat; football has a defensive coordinator in a satin jacket with a headset and a clipboard. 10 The Redskins have 13 assistant coaches, five equipment managers, three trainers, two assistant GMs but, for 14 games, nobody who could kick an extra point. 11 Football players and coaches don't know how to bait a ref, much less jump up and down and scream in his face. Baseball players know how to argue with umps; baseball managers even kick dirt on them. Earl Weaver steals third base and won't give it back; Tom Landry folds his arms. 12 Vince Lombardi was never ashamed that he said, "Winning isn't everything. It's the only thing." 13 Football coaches talk about character, gut checks, intensity and reckless abandon. Tommy Lasorda said, "Managing is like holding a dove in your hand. Squeeze too hard and you kill it; not hard enough and it flies away." 14 Big league baseball players chew tobacco. Pro football linemen chew on each other. 15 Before a baseball game, there are two hours of batting practice. Before a football game, there's a two-hour traffic jam. 16 A crowd of 30,000 in a stadium built for 55,501 has a lot more fun than a crowd of 55,501 in the same stadium. 17 No one has ever actually reached the end of the restroom line at an NFL game. 18 Nine innings means 18 chances at the hot dog line. Two halves means B.Y.O. or go hungry. 19 Pro football players have breasts. Many NFLers are so freakishly overdeveloped, due to steroids, that they look like circus geeks. Baseball players seem like normal fit folks. Fans should be thankful they don't have to look at NFL teams in bathing suits. 20 Eighty degrees, a cold beer and a short-sleeve shirt is better than 30 degrees, a hip flask and six layers of clothes under a lap blanket. Take your pick: suntan or frostbite. 21 Having 162 games a year is 10.125 times as good as having 16. 22 If you miss your favorite NFL team's game, you have to wait a week. In baseball, you wait a day. 23 Everything George Carlin said in his famous monologue is right on. In football you blitz, bomb, spear, shiver, march and score. In baseball, you wait for a walk, take your stretch, toe the rubber, tap your spikes, play ball and run home. 24 Marianne Moore loved Christy Mathewson. No woman of quality has ever preferred football to baseball. 25 More good baseball books appear in a single year than have been written about football in the past 50 years. The best football writers, like Dan Jenkins, have the good sense to write about something else most of the time. 26 The best football announcer ever was Howard Cosell. 27 The worst baseball announcer ever was Howard Cosell. 28 All gridirons are identical; football coaches never have to meet to go over the ground rules. But the best baseball parks are unique. 29 Every outdoor park ever built primarily for baseball has been pretty. Every stadium built with pro football in mind has been ugly (except Arrowhead). 30 The coin flip at the beginning of football games is idiotic. Home teams should always kick off and pick a goal to defend. In baseball, the visitor bats first (courtesy), while the host bats last (for drama). The football visitor should get the first chance to score, while the home team should have the dramatic advantage of receiving the second-half kickoff. 31 Baseball is harder. In the last 25 years, only one player, Vince Coleman, has been cut from the NFL and then become a success in the majors. From Tom Brown in 1963 (Senators to Packers) to Jay Schroeder (Jays to Redskins), baseball flops have become NFL standouts. 32 Face masks. Right away we've got a clue something might be wrong. A guy can go 80 mph on a Harley without a helmet, much less a face mask. 33 Faces are better than helmets. Think of all the players in the NFL (excluding Redskins) whom you'd recognize on the street. Now eliminate the quarterbacks. Not many left, are there? Now think of all the baseball players whose faces you know, just from the last Series. 34 The NFL has — how can we say this? — a few borderline godfathers. Baseball has almost no mobsters or suspicious types among its owners. Pete Rozelle isn't as picky as Bowie Kuhn, who for 15 years considered "integrity of the game" to be one of his key functions and who gave the cold shoulder to the shady money guys. 35 Football has Tank and Mean Joe. Baseball has The Human Rain Delay and Charlie Hustle. 36 In football, it's team first, individual second — if at all. A Rich Milot and a Curtis Jordan can play 10 years — but when would we ever have time to study them alone for just one game? Could we mimic their gestures, their tics, their habits? A baseball player is an individual first, then part of a team second. You can study him at length and at leisure in the batter's box or on the mound. On defense, when the batted ball seeks him, so do our eyes. 37 Baseball statistics open a world to us. Football statistics are virtually useless or, worse, misleading. For instance, the NFL quarterback-ranking system is a joke. Nobody understands it or can justify it. The old average-gain-per- attempt rankings were just as good. 38 What kind of dim-bulb sport would rank pass receivers by number of catches instead of by number of yards? Only in football would a runner with 1,100 yards on 300 carries be rated ahead of a back with 1,000 yards on 200 carries. Does baseball give its silver bat to the player with the most hits or with the highest average? 39 If you use NFL team statistics as a betting tool, you go broke. Only wins and losses, points and points against and turnovers are worth a damn. 40 Baseball has one designated hitter. In football, everybody is a designated something. No one plays the whole game anymore. Football worships the specialists. Baseball worships the generalists. 41 The tense closing seconds of crucial baseball games are decided by distinctive relief pitchers like Bruce Sutter, Rollie Fingers or Goose Gossage. Vital NFL games are decided by helmeted gentlemen who come on for 10 seconds, kick sideways, spend the rest of the game keeping their precious foot warm on the sidelines and aren't aware of the subtleties of the game. Half of them, in Alex Karras' words, run off the field chirping, "I kick a touchdown." 42 Football gave us The Fudge Hammer. Baseball gave us The Hammer. 43 How can you respect a game that uses only the point after touchdown and completely ignores the option of a two-point conversion, which would make the end of football games much more exciting. 44 Wild cards. If baseball can stick with four divisional champs out of 26 teams, why does the NFL need to invite 10 of its 28 to the prom? Could it be that football isn't terribly interesting unless your team can still "win it all"? 45 The entire NFL playoff system is a fraud. Go on, explain with a straight face why the Chiefs (10-6) were in the playoffs but the Seahawks (10-6) were not. There is no real reason. Seattle was simply left out for convenience. When baseball tried the comparably bogus split-season fiasco with half-season champions in 1981, fans almost rioted. 46 Parity scheduling. How can the NFL defend the fairness of deliberately giving easier schedules to weaker teams and harder schedules to better teams? Just to generate artificially improved competition? When a weak team with a patsy schedule goes 10-6, while a strong defending division champ misses the playoffs at 9-7, nobody says boo. Baseball would have open revolt at such a nauseatingly cynical system. 47 Baseball has no penalty for pass interference. (This in itself is almost enough to declare baseball the better game.) In football, offsides is five yards, holding is 10 yards, a personal foul is 15 yards. But interference: maybe 50 yards. 48 Nobody on earth really knows what pass interference is. Part judgment, part acting, mostly accident. 49 Baseball has no penalties at all. A home run is a home run. You cheer. In football, on a score, you look for flags. If there's one, who's it on? When can we cheer? Football acts can all be repealed. Baseball acts stand forever. 50 Instant replays. Just when we thought there couldn't be anything worse than penalties, we get instant replays of penalties. Talk about a bad joke. Now any play, even one with no flags, can be called back. Even a flag itself can, after five minutes of boring delay, be nullified. NFL time has entered the Twilight Zone. Nothing is real; everything is hypothetical. 51 Football has Hacksaw. Baseball has Steady Eddie and The Candy Man. 52 The NFL's style of play has been stagnant for decades, predictable. Turn on any NFL game and that's just what it could be — any NFL game. Teams seem interchangeable. Even the wishbone is too radical. Baseball teams' styles are often determined by their personnel and even their parks. 53 Football fans tailgate before the big game. No baseball fan would have a picnic in a parking lot. 54 At a football game, you almost never leave saying, "I never saw a play like that before." At a baseball game, there's almost always some new wrinkle. 55 Beneath the NFL's infinite sameness lies infinite variety. But we aren't privy to it. So what if football is totally explicable and fascinating to Dan Marino as he tries to decide whether to audible to a quick trap? From the stands, we don't know one-thousandth of what's required to grasp a pro football game. If an NFL coach has to say, "I won't know until I see the films," then how out-in-the-cold does that leave the fan? 56 While football is the most closed of games, baseball is the most open. A fan with a score card, a modest knowledge of the teams and a knack for paying attention has all he needs to watch a game with sophistication. 57 NFL refs are weekend warriors, pulled from other jobs to moonlight; as a group, they're barely competent. That's really why the NFL turned to instant replays. Now, old fogies upstairs can't even get the make-over calls right. Baseball umps work 10 years in the minors and know what they are doing. Replays show how good they are. If Don Denkinger screws up in a split second of Series tension, it's instant lore. 58 Too many of the best NFL teams represent unpalatable values. The Bears are head-thumping braggarts. The Raiders have long been scofflaw pirates. The Cowboys glorify the heartless corporate approach to football. 59 Football has the Refrigerator. Baseball has Puff the Magic Dragon, The Wizard of Oz, Tom Terrific, Big Doggy, Kitty Kaat and Oil Can. 60 Football is impossible to watch. Admit it: The human head is at least two eyes shy for watching the forward pass. Do you watch the five eligible receivers? Or the quarterback and the pass rush? If you keep your eye on the ball, you never know who got open or how. If you watch the receivers . . . well, nobody watches the receivers. On TV, you don't even know how many receivers have gone out for a pass. 61 The NFL keeps changing the most basic rules. Most blocking now would have been illegal use of the hands in Jim Parker's time. How do we compare eras when the sport never stays the same? Pretty soon, intentional grounding will be legalized to protect quarterbacks. 62 In the NFL, you can't tell the players without an Intensive Care Unit report. Players get broken apart so fast we have no time to build up allegiances to stars. Three-quarters of the NFL's starting quarterbacks are in their first four years in the league. Is it because the new breed is better? Or because the old breed is already lame? A top baseball player lasts 15 to 20 years. We know him like an old friend. 63 The baseball Hall of Fame is in Cooperstown, N.Y., beside James Fenimore Cooper's Lake Glimmerglass; the football Hall of Fame is in Canton, Ohio, beside the freeway. 64 Baseball means Spring's Here. Football means Winter's Coming. 65 Best book for a lifetime on a desert island: The Baseball Encyclopedia. 66 Baseball's record on race relations is poor. But football's is much worse. Is it possible that the NFL still has NEVER had a black head coach? And why is a black quarterback still as rare as a bilingual woodpecker? 67 Baseball has a drug problem comparable to society's. Pro football has a range of substance-abuse problems comparable only to itself. And, perhaps, The Hells Angels'. 68 Baseball enriches language and imagination at almost every point of contact. As John Lardner put it, "Babe Herman did not triple into a triple play, but he did double into a double play, which is the next best thing." 69 Who's on First? 70 Without baseball, there'd have been no Fenway Park. Without football, there'd have been no artificial turf. 71 A typical baseball game has nine runs, more than 250 pitches and about 80 completed plays — hits, walks, outs — in 2½ hours. A typical football game has about five touchdowns, a couple of field goals and fewer than 150 plays spread over three hours. Of those plays, perhaps 20 or 25 result in a gain or loss of more than 10 yards. Baseball has more scoring plays, more serious scoring threats and more meaningful action plays. 72 Baseball has no clock. Yes, you were waiting for that. The comeback, from three or more scores behind, is far more common in baseball than football. 73 The majority of players on a football field in any game are lost and unaccountable in the middle of pileups. Confusion hides a multitude of sins. Every baseball player's performance and contribution are measured and recorded in every game. 74 Some San Francisco linemen now wear dark plexiglass visors inside their face masks -- even at night. "And in the third round, out of Empire U., the 49ers would like to pick Darth Vader." 75 Someday, just once, could we have a punt without a penalty? 76 End-zone spikes. Sack dances. Or, in Dexter Manley's case, "holding flag" dances. 77 Unbelievably stupid rules. For example, if the two-minute warning passes, any play that begins even a split second thereafter is nullified. Even, as happened in this season's Washington-San Francisco game, when it's the decisive play of the entire game. And even when, as also happened in that game, not one of the 22 players on the field is aware that the two-minute mark has passed. The Skins stopped the 49ers on fourth down to save that game. They exulted; the 49ers started off the field. Then the refs said, "Play the down over." Absolutely unbelievable. 78 In baseball, fans catch foul balls. In football, they raise a net so you can't even catch an extra point. 79 Nothing in baseball is as boring as the four hours of ABC's "Monday Night Football." 80 Blowhard coach Buddy Ryan, who gave himself a grade of A+ for his handling of the Eagles. "I didn't make any mistakes," he explained. His 5-10-1 team was 7-9 the year before he came. 81 Football players, somewhere back in their phylogenic development, learned how to talk like football coaches. ("Our goals this week were to contain Dickerson and control the line of scrimmage.") Baseball players say things like, "This pitcher's so bad that when he comes in, the grounds crew drags the warning track." 82 Football coaches walk across the field after the game and pretend to congratulate the opposing coach. Baseball managers head right for the beer. 83 The best ever in each sport - Babe Ruth and Jim Brown — each represents egocentric excess. But Ruth never threw a woman out a window. 84 Quarterbacks have to ask the crowd to quiet down. Pitchers never do. 85 Baseball nicknames go on forever - because we feel we know so many players intimately. Football monikers run out fast. We just don't know that many of them as people. 86 Baseball measures a gift for dailiness. 87 Football has two weeks of hype before the Super Bowl. Baseball takes about two days off before the World Series. 88 Football, because of its self-importance, minimizes a sense of humor. Baseball cultivates one. Knowing you'll lose at least 60 games every season makes self-deprecation a survival tool. As Casey Stengel said to his barber, "Don't cut my throat. I may want to do that myself later." 89 Football is played best full of adrenaline and anger. Moderation seldom finds a place. Almost every act of baseball is a blending of effort and control; too much of either is fatal. 90 Football's real problem is not that it glorifies violence, though it does, but that it offers no successful alternative to violence. In baseball, there is a choice of methods: the change-up or the knuckleball, the bunt or the hit-and-run. 91 Baseball is vastly better in person than on TV. Only when you're in the ballpark can the eye grasp and interconnect the game's great distances. Will the wind blow that long fly just over the fence? Will the relay throw nail the runner trying to score from second on a double in the alley? Who's warming up in the bullpen? Where is the defense shading this hitter? Did the base stealer get a good jump? The eye flicks back and forth and captures everything that is necessary. As for replays, most parks have them. Football is better on TV. At least, you don't need binoculars. And you've got your replays. 92 Turning the car radio dial on a summer night. 93 George Steinbrenner learned his baseball methods as a football coach. 94 You'll never see a woman in a fur coat at a baseball game. 95 You'll never see a man in a fur coat at a baseball game. 96 A six-month pennant race. Football has nothing like it. 97 In football, nobody says, "Let's play two!" 98 When a baseball player gets knocked out, he goes to the showers. When a football player gets knocked out, he goes to get X-rayed. 99 Most of all, baseball is better than football because spring training is less than a month away.

attgig Dec 05 2006 10:39 AM

i'm sure someone can can come up with a list of 99 reasons why football is better than baseball - with tons of them being the same reasons listed above, but just worded differently.

metsguyinmichigan Dec 05 2006 11:01 AM

attgig wrote: i'm sure someone can can come up with a list of 99 reasons why football is better than baseball - with tons of them being the same reasons listed above, but just worded differently. Well, yeah. But they'd be wrong. ;)

Nymr83 Dec 05 2006 02:00 PM

]Plus, the whole baseball v football argument is a lot like the ones cat & dog owners have which each other about which species is smarter. In both cases, each side loads up on examples which are unique strengths of that particular sport/critter all of which shows nothing more profound than the discovery that dogs are much better at being dogs than cats are and vice versa. Dogs are way better than cats.

Willets Point Dec 05 2006 02:23 PM

Without looking at hard statistics I'd gather that 50+ years ago the most popular spectator sports in the USA were baseball, boxing, and horse racing. With the exception of some over hyped heavyweight title bouts and the Triple Crown races, these sports have moved to the fringes. In fact, I think NASCAR has taken over the racing niche in a high-tech format and professional wrestling by being blatantly fake is more acceptable the boxing's corruption. Compared to these baseball is still going strong and nothing has replaced it's niche. The sports market is a lot wider than it ever has been and people have a lot more time and money to spend watching sports on TV and in person, and obviously people follow more than one sport. Baseball has lost it's unique place as the National Pastime and most popular sport, but at the same time I think more people are following baseball now than they did in its glory days. So I'm not worried about baseball, it has its place, it has its fans, it has its tradition and I don't think any of that is going away anytime soon. Oh, and cats are better than dogs.

seawolf17 Dec 05 2006 02:36 PM

Dogs can kick cats' collective asses from here to next week.

Nymr83 Dec 05 2006 04:11 PM

By virtue of its being scripted, professional wrestling cannot really be considered a "sport." I'd rather not argue about what else is or is not a sport right now, other than to say that I think, at a bare minimum, you need to have two (or more) sides (or individuals) who are both (or all) making a legitimate attempt to win by whatever rules the sport prescribes. any game/entertainment in which the winner is pre-ordained is not a "sport." Before some idiot says otherwise, I'll add that I am in no way disparaging the real wrestlng that goes on at the high school level (and presumably elsewhere that i am not aware of.)

Iubitul Dec 05 2006 04:29 PM

I think Boswell put it even better with the title of his book, Why Time Begins On Opening Day I enjoy other sports, but they are mainly filler between baseball seasons.

SteveJRogers Dec 05 2006 06:22 PM

martin wrote: arent the attendance numbers for baseball rising? Take away the big markets and the increase really is "smoke and mirrors" Look at my Philly example somewhere in this thread. NO ONE was going to the ballpark to see the Phils this past September when they were in the middle of a "down to the final day" chase for the wild card, with Ryan Howard making a charge for 50+ homers, and they entered September with a sliver of hope of catching the Mets. Reverse the situation, Shea is PACKED 55,000 strong every night, no one is paying attention to the start of the Giants and Jets untill after the Mets just run out of time on the last day of the season. Pro Golf is also on the inclimb as well if you want to discount NASCAR, and think about this for a second. What network has ever MADE money on the MLB package?

Johnny Dickshot Dec 05 2006 06:56 PM

Steve J., they drew 2.7 million fans this year!

SteveJRogers Dec 05 2006 08:08 PM

I think thats more of a reflection of the "New Ballpark Spike" rather than interest in the Phils. Philly still hasn't come back since 1994, despite being in the scrum of things in recent years. There was more attention paid to the Eagles than there were to the Phillies, where in New York, that will never happen.

Johnny Dickshot Dec 05 2006 08:38 PM

SteveJRogers wrote: I think thats more of a reflection of the "New Ballpark Spike" rather than interest in the Phils. Well, you also thought that no one was going to the ballpark and we see how accurate that thought was. ]Philly still hasn't come back since 1994, despite being in the scrum of things in recent years. They've outdrawn every team since 93 in the last 2 years. ]There was more attention paid to the Eagles than there were to the Phillies, where in New York, that will never happen. People are nuts about the Eagles in Philly, but it didn;t stop the Phillies from drawing nearly 3 million fans. You have no point here, Steve. Give it up.

metirish Dec 05 2006 08:44 PM

SteveJRogers wrote: I think thats more of a reflection of the "New Ballpark Spike" rather than interest in the Phils. Philly still hasn't come back since 1994, despite being in the scrum of things in recent years. There was more attention paid to the Eagles than there were to the Phillies, where in New York, that will never happen. I think Ryan Howard might be getting some people to the park,nothing like a hown grown slugger who by all accounts is not a bollox but a decent guy.

Nymr83 Dec 05 2006 09:35 PM

Steve, you don't have ANYTHING credible to back you up on your anti-baseball crusade. The attendance is up, the revenue is up. who cares if the networks haven't profitted on MLB (and i'm not conceding that, i'm just saying its a moot point right now), they keep signing the deals and BASEBALL is profiting from them.

SteveJRogers Dec 05 2006 09:41 PM

Nymr83 wrote: Steve, you don't have ANYTHING credible to back you up on your anti-baseball crusade. The attendance is up, the revenue is up. who cares if the networks haven't profitted on MLB (and i'm not conceding that, i'm just saying its a moot point right now), they keep signing the deals and BASEBALL is profiting from them. Again, it's a matter of perspective. You think baseball attendance is up, but it's only up in the big markets, and places with very new stadiums. And Philly very much is one of those cities often cited as "they haven't come back since 1994" ala KC, Pittsburgh, ect Baseball attendance is pure smoke and mirrors. Take out NY, take out Boston, take out LA/Anaheim, take out Chicago and you have a House Of Cards.

Edgy DC Dec 05 2006 09:49 PM

But it's going to take at least a dozen warheads to take out those cities, Steve.

SteveJRogers Dec 05 2006 09:52 PM

Attendance is usually fine in New York, Boston, Montreal, Toronto, Detroit, ect but no one is suggesting hockey is a thriving sport. Attendance in large markets are fine in pro hoops, but no one is yet saying that the NBA is back to it's 80's-early 90's heydays

Nymr83 Dec 05 2006 09:53 PM

theres no smoke and mirrors, the numbers are up and you simply don't like it. take away the biggest 7 teams, as you would have us do, in the NBA and they wouldnt look too hot either, do it in the NHL and they'd look like a ghosttown. and if its just about the big markets how have revenues at least TRIPLED during Selig's tenure? I don't know why you want to see baseball die but its NOT GOING TO HAPPEN

Edgy DC Dec 05 2006 09:53 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Dec 05 2006 09:54 PM

Did the Kansas City As and Cleveland Indians of the fifties outdraw their counterparts of the contemporary era? And why discount cities with new ballparks? Isn't that part of what they're selling? A lot of the teams in the sports that are threatening to take baseball's lunch are playing in new homes also.

metirish Dec 05 2006 09:53 PM

A full report.... http://www.ballparksofbaseball.com/2000-03attendance.htm

Willets Point Dec 05 2006 09:55 PM

Edgy DC wrote: But it's going to take at least a dozen warheads to take out those cities, Steve. POTD.

Rockin' Doc Dec 05 2006 09:56 PM

"53 Football fans tailgate before the big game. No baseball fan would have a picnic in a parking lot." Thomas Boswell of the Washington Post apparently never met this crew.

metsmarathon Dec 05 2006 10:00 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Dec 05 2006 10:10 PM

SteveJRogers wrote: ="martin"] arent the attendance numbers for baseball rising? Take away the big markets and the increase really is "smoke and mirrors" Look at my Philly example somewhere in this thread. NO ONE was going to the ballpark to see the Phils this past September when they were in the middle of a "down to the final day" chase for the wild card, with Ryan Howard making a charge for 50+ homers, and they entered September with a sliver of hope of catching the Mets. Reverse the situation, Shea is PACKED 55,000 strong every night, no one is paying attention to the start of the Giants and Jets untill after the Mets just run out of time on the last day of the season. good gravy, steve, what the fuck games were you looking at? behold, a breakdown of mets and phillies attendance, both home and away, for the september of 2006. mets mets phillies phillies home road home road Friday 1-Sep 35,548 31,717 Saturday 2-Sep 43,218 28,600 Sunday 3-Sep 43,018 37,044 Monday 4-Sep 42,428 44,674 Tuesday 5-Sep Wednesday 6-Sep 40,536 33,521 Thursday 7-Sep 48,583 12,712 Friday 8-Sep 52,077 21,432 Saturday 9-Sep 47,064 27,444 Sunday 10-Sep 48,760 20,308 Monday 11-Sep 13,725 Tuesday 12-Sep 15,163 Wednesday 13-Sep 20,225 22,239 Thursday 14-Sep 19,346 Friday 15-Sep 24,410 41,432 Saturday 16-Sep 37,623 41,002 Sunday 17-Sep 34,866 41,170 Monday 18-Sep 46,729 31,101 Tuesday 19-Sep 42,407 31,892 Wednesday 20-Sep 37,911 35,269 Thursday 21-Sep 44,966 Friday 22-Sep 42,788 44,737 Saturday 23-Sep 45,245 37,055 Sunday 24-Sep 44,543 44,772 Monday 25-Sep 34,027 44,688 Tuesday 26-Sep 22,607 18,960 Wednesday 27-Sep 23,177 21,809 Thursday 28-Sep 22,944 18,324 Friday 29-Sep 27,805 23,417 Saturday 30-Sep 30,449 20,992 Sunday 1-Oct 29,044 36,768 average 44,147 28,255 37,089 25,824 the only time the cbp went empty was when the phillies were out of town. they averaged 37,000 fans per home game in september! no, they didnt match the draw of superduper-big-market team the mets, but, damn, 37,000! that ain't empty, dude. is it too much to ask that you check your own damned facts? ]Baseball attendance is pure smoke and mirrors. Take out NY, take out Boston, take out LA/Anaheim, take out Chicago and you have a House Of Cards. steve, do me (us) a favor. look at the trend for the attendance at ALL teams, and then come back to this point. given how ludicrous your assertion about the phillies are, i hesitate to give you any amount of credence on the attendance figures around the rest of baseball.

SteveJRogers Dec 05 2006 10:02 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Dec 05 2006 10:04 PM

Nymr83 wrote: theres no smoke and mirrors, the numbers are up and you simply don't like it. take away the biggest 7 teams, as you would have us do, in the NBA and they wouldnt look too hot either, do it in the NHL and they'd look like a ghosttown. Thats my point about baseball. No one is saying the NBA and NHL are back, though the NBA is getting some press, though its more of a "We WANT a NBA renisssance" kind of way ]revenues at least TRIPLED during Selig's tenure Because black and retro unis/caps appeal to hip-hop wannabes who wouldn't know the first thing about the team who's logos they are wearing. Because there are just more consumers out there with disposable income. Because it its too entrenched in "the fabric of Americana" that people just don't know any better, or feel that baseball is "safer" to push on their kids than the other sports. Because despite not being profitable there IS a sucker born every minute, and those at FOX, XM, the server host of MLB.com, and ESPN are the current "suckers" ect...

Nymr83 Dec 05 2006 10:03 PM

in Steve's mind the lack of attendance in a 95 degree building, with 99% humidity, in the sun, with a nearly gauranteed shower every afternoon in Miami means that attendance sucks league-wide.

metirish Dec 05 2006 10:05 PM

] Because black and retro unis/caps appeal to hip-hop wannabes who wouldn't know the first thing about the team who's logos they are wearing I have a black Mets Uni..Martinez....I am not a hip-hop wannabe...and I think I know a bit about the sport..Steve you just keep beating the horse..it used to be amazing but not anymore.

Nymr83 Dec 05 2006 10:07 PM

]Quote: revenues at least TRIPLED during Selig's tenure Because black and retro unis/caps appeal to hip-hop wannabes who wouldn't know the first thing about the team who's logos they are wearing. and you expext that in our material culture there won't be some new fad that the teams will all pick up on to boost revenue every few years? Because there are just more consumers out there with disposable income. please show me that every other business into which Americans can drop their disposable income has shown the same increase, otherwise this argument has no basis Because it its too entrenched in "the fabric of Americana" that people just don't know any better, or feel that baseball is "safer" to push on their kids than the other sports. if its "entrenched" then it definetaly is not dying, which is it? Because despite not being profitable there IS a sucker born every minute, and those at FOX, XM, the server host of MLB.com, and ESPN are the current "suckers" if there really are "suckers" now then i'm sure there will be more later. ect... Bec edited to avoid the RLF.

SteveJRogers Dec 05 2006 10:08 PM

Nymr83 wrote: in Steve's mind the lack of attendance in a 95 degree building, with 99% humidity, in the sun, with a nearly gauranteed shower every afternoon in Miami means that attendance sucks league-wide. Okay, so why by the same token can they never get a new domed stadium pushed through. Using your logic the Marlins should never have been born. Come to think of it, that really has been one of baseball's problems, like the NHL they over-expanded.

Edgy DC Dec 05 2006 10:12 PM

Baseball's success is illusory due to its entrenchedness and its faddishness.

Edgy DC Dec 05 2006 10:13 PM

The issue isn't the Marlins, Steve. Let it go.

metsmarathon Dec 05 2006 10:13 PM

SteveJRogers wrote: ="Nymr83"]in Steve's mind the lack of attendance in a 95 degree building, with 99% humidity, in the sun, with a nearly gauranteed shower every afternoon in Miami means that attendance sucks league-wide. Okay, so why by the same token can they never get a new domed stadium pushed through. Using your logic the Marlins should never have been born. Come to think of it, that really has been one of baseball's problems, like the NHL they over-expanded. using your logic, because the marlins don't draw, the league is doomed. i don't see it.

SteveJRogers Dec 05 2006 10:16 PM

]and you expext that in our material culture there won't be some new fad that the teams will all pick up on to boost revenue every few years? Of course there will, I'm saying that was one of the factors in the increase of revenue streams. ]Because there are just more consumers out there with disposable income. please show me that every other business into which Americans can drop their disposable income has shown the same increase, otherwise this argument has no basis I'm sorry, did I miss the part where the economy actually boomed within the last ten years? ]Because it its too entrenched in "the fabric of Americana" that people just don't know any better, or feel that baseball is "safer" to push on their kids than the other sports. if its "entrenched" then it definetaly is not dying, which is it? Where are the drive thru theatres? Do you see and soda/candy shops around? How about the theatre itself? Outside of the bigger Broadway shows of course? Did you know Horse Racing at a time was actually just as big as baseball, and just as entrenched? I never said MLB baseball would die out completely, I mean the NHL, MLS and WNBA are still in operation and all, I'm just saying that people are wrong in thinking A) it will ever retake the top spot and B) that it's current standing is secure and there will be a time where it will no longer be in the top ten in terms of sports. ]Because despite not being profitable there IS a sucker born every minute, and those at FOX, XM, the server host of MLB.com, and ESPN are the current "suckers" if there really are "suckers" now then i'm sure there will be more later. I don't doubt that, that's kind of the point.

SteveJRogers Dec 05 2006 10:22 PM

Edgy DC wrote: And why discount cities with new ballparks? Isn't that part of what they're selling? A lot of the teams in the sports that are threatening to take baseball's lunch are playing in new homes also. Because it's an artifical spike. Because it's cause for those to say "Oh, something new, lets check it out" Basically they become tourist traps

SteveJRogers Dec 05 2006 10:27 PM

Edgy DC wrote: Baseball's success is illusory due to its entrenchedness and its faddishness. Again, it's a "safe" sport (if you know what I mean) to bring your kids up on, and that accounts for sheltered suburbanites bringing their family of 4 to games despite the fact that they are the ones complaining about every little thing from lousy parking to the fact that it costs over a hundred bucks by the time they get home and all. In the meantime they think they are bonding with their kids with something that they want to believe was golden back in their youth. And yes, baseball is very much a trend follower. Why do you think most MLB stadiums sound more like NBA arenas every night? Why do you think you see teams go to colors that are more marketable, and go to colors that never have been seen on an actual field.

SteveJRogers Dec 05 2006 10:28 PM

Edgy DC wrote: The issue isn't the Marlins, Steve. Let it go. Okay, then lets go a little north and explain why the Braves never sold out an NLDS game?

metsmarathon Dec 05 2006 10:39 PM

my head hurts from all of this. if the braves never sell out NLDS games, tehn they're static, and aren't gettingany worse are they? no problem there then. and now, baseball is both too entrenched and stale, and too trendy and faddish. pick your poison. i guess you're convinced that you've seen the canary in the coal mine, and its all around you, and its dropped dead. but for all your screaming about the peril that baseball is in, i don't see the nfl capable of sustaining a team in los freakin' angeles, the second biggest market in the country! and college football and nascar have no traction in the biggest market in the country, new york! middle america doesn't, for the most part, make the trends - its so cal and new york that establishes the trends that the rest of the country tries to catch up on. and there, baseball is doin' just fine. but, gosh, how can baseball survive for itself? since you are so acutely aware of baseball's problems, how would you fix it?

Nymr83 Dec 05 2006 10:42 PM

]I'm sorry, did I miss the part where the economy actually boomed within the last ten years? not to the extent that baseball revenue has boomed, and most other entertainment industries have likely not seen the same jump either. ]I never said MLB baseball would die out completely, I mean the NHL, MLS and WNBA are still in operation and all, I'm just saying that people are wrong in thinking A) it will ever retake the top spot and B) that it's current standing is secure and there will be a time where it will no longer be in the top ten in terms of sports. I agree that it is unlikely to surpass the NFL in the next few decades, but that is hardly a deathknell or a problem for hte sport at all. no longer in the top 10? you're a moron. i have a "bet" for you... pay me $1,000 every january 1st that baseball is in the top 10, if it ever falls out of the top 10 i'll pay you back everything you've given me to date and then start paying you $1,000 a year.

Frayed Knot Dec 05 2006 10:44 PM

If you're going to attempt to construct some sort of logical argument you're going to have to stay away from your strategy of "proof" by selectively choosing those individual anecdotes which fit your pre-determined conclusion - especially when many of them aren't close to accurate. If you're going to cite those cities where turnstile counts are lagging how about comparing them to how the bottom feeders were drawing from your so-called golder era - y'know, the one where you claim that every fan knew every thing about every player.

Nymr83 Dec 05 2006 10:46 PM

Frayed Knot wrote: If you're going to cite those cities where turnstile counts are lagging how about comparing them to how the bottom feeders were drawing from your so-called golder era - y'know, the one where you claim that every fan knew every thing about every player. indeed. i can't prove it, but i'd guess that baseball fans can name the rest of the league's lineups better than football fans can.

patona314 Dec 05 2006 10:52 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Dec 05 2006 11:02 PM

i have never seen such a simple question get so complicated outside of my marriage: so baseball is dieing?... NOT.. we're #2 in the country behind the NFL in terms of revenue, not viewership. baseball might never be the #1 "important" sport ever again in the U.S of A, but it will always be the most watched. it's inevitable just by how many games are played and how many teams there are. so many things work against baseball and it still prospers. when was the last time anyone in this forum drove a change up into right-center? i don't think i ever did that. let me asked you folks somes questions. all of which are negatives toward developing baseball players in our lovely country but still, baseball prospers socially and financially: soccer? lacrosse? basketball from the urban standpoint? chlidren training for one sport all year round as opposed to when i grew up where we played everything? i'm sure there are many other, please list them. maybe things go this way because baseball is a hard game to play well. this is why i moved on to softball many moons ago. baseball will never die and will always be strong. mindless people who never played the game "well" will only criticize it...... but still watch the game.

SteveJRogers Dec 05 2006 10:54 PM

]my head hurts from all of this. if the braves never sell out NLDS games, tehn they're static, and aren't gettingany worse are they? no problem there then. Oh lets see, were there empty seats at Yankee Stadium's afternoon ALDS game this past October? Last I checked the Yanks have made postseason play every year since 1995. ]and now, baseball is both too entrenched and stale, and too trendy and faddish. pick your poison. No, it's the "safe" choice and read between the lines there. ]but, gosh, how can baseball survive for itself? since you are so acutely aware of baseball's problems, how would you fix it? Well for starters I'll piss off the union but A) retraction is a MUST, and so is B) MANDTORY HGH testing along with the current drug policy. Insert salery cap, actually make cosmetic changes to make baseball less "boring" and more "appealing" to the ADD mass population (i.e. no more in-at bat rituals, less pickoff moves, ect)

SteveJRogers Dec 05 2006 10:56 PM

Nymr83 wrote: ="Frayed Knot"] If you're going to cite those cities where turnstile counts are lagging how about comparing them to how the bottom feeders were drawing from your so-called golder era - y'know, the one where you claim that every fan knew every thing about every player. indeed. i can't prove it, but i'd guess that baseball fans can name the rest of the league's lineups better than football fans can. Which is actually a problem of Interleague. No one in NY cares about Mets vs Royals or Yankees vs Rockies because Met fans never heard of ANYONE on the Royals and Yankee fans never heard of ANYONE on the Rockies, so Interleague is out

Frayed Knot Dec 05 2006 10:59 PM

]Oh lets see, were there empty seats at Yankee Stadium's afternoon ALDS game this past October? No, but there were close to 20,000 empty seats watching "the shot heard round the world" ... so I guess it was a dying sport more than 1/2 century ago too. Geez, Rasputin didn't die this slowly!

SteveJRogers Dec 05 2006 11:05 PM

Frayed Knot wrote: ]Oh lets see, were there empty seats at Yankee Stadium's afternoon ALDS game this past October? No, but there were close to 20,000 empty seats watching "the shot heard round the world" ... so I guess it was a dying sport more than 1/2 century ago too. Geez, Rasputin didn't die this slowly! Different time, different era in terms of use of discretionary income. Also wasn't that low attendance often attributed to it being one of the High Holy Days for the Jewish faith?

Nymr83 Dec 05 2006 11:09 PM

]Which is actually a problem of Interleague. No one in NY cares about Mets vs Royals or Yankees vs Rockies because Met fans never heard of ANYONE on the Royals and Yankee fans never heard of ANYONE on the Rockies, so Interleague is out i agree that interleague has gotten old fast, but thats not much of huge problem, and theres "interleague" in football too.

patona314 Dec 05 2006 11:09 PM

SteveJRogers wrote: ="Frayed Knot"] ]Oh lets see, were there empty seats at Yankee Stadium's afternoon ALDS game this past October? No, but there were close to 20,000 empty seats watching "the shot heard round the world" ... so I guess it was a dying sport more than 1/2 century ago too. Geez, Rasputin didn't die this slowly! Different time, different era in terms of use of discretionary income. Also wasn't that low attendance often attributed to it being one of the High Holy Days for the Jewish faith? Gary Matthew Jr.'s new contract is good evidence that baseball is alive and well.

SteveJRogers Dec 05 2006 11:12 PM

Nymr83 wrote: ]Which is actually a problem of Interleague. No one in NY cares about Mets vs Royals or Yankees vs Rockies because Met fans never heard of ANYONE on the Royals and Yankee fans never heard of ANYONE on the Rockies, so Interleague is out i agree that interleague has gotten old fast, but thats not much of huge problem, and theres "interleague" in football too. AHHHH! But in football, do the fans really care who the other team is? Unless it's one of the top teams in that confrence, generally they are there for the party type atmosphere of a Football Sunday (or Monday or Thursday or whatever) Different attitude, and yes that means it really doesn't matter if a Giant fan can't name all the Ravens backfield, but it really does matter that a Yankee fan wouldn't know Todd Helton from Sweeny Todd.

SteveJRogers Dec 05 2006 11:13 PM

="patona314"] SteveJRogers wrote: Gary Matthew Jr.'s new contract is good evidence that baseball is alive and well. I've seen insane NBA and NHL contracts, are we saying they are still alive and well in the sense MLB is? metsmarathon Dec 05 2006 11:15 PM SteveJRogers wrote: ]my head hurts from all of this. if the braves never sell out NLDS games, tehn they're static, and aren't gettingany worse are they? no problem there then. Oh lets see, were there empty seats at Yankee Stadium's afternoon ALDS game this past October? Last I checked the Yanks have made postseason play every year since 1995. the fullness of yankee stadium speaks to the relative ease of filling a stadium in new york as compared to a stadium in atlanta. the consistency with which that stadium is filled speaks to the local level of interest in both the specific team and how well they are performaning, and to a lesser extent in the sport in general. if the braves' ticket sales remain mostly static, then the interest level is also static, and we can assume that there is no appreciable loss in interest in the team and the sport. if your statement is correct, that the braves never sell out nlds games, then the problem is neither getting better nor worse in atlanta. should we lament that baseball isn;t the dangerous choice steve? i don't really see the Xgames picking up too much steam in the mainstream. maybe UFC has become more mainstream, but they had to clean themselves up, make their sport safer and more palatable for that to happen. so, i don't really know waht that means for you. and was the fanbase so heavily judaic, that an insufficient quantity of gentiles was available to fill the stadium in their absence? or were teh good christians observing as well, as a sign of good will and neighborliness? c'mon! SteveJRogers Dec 05 2006 11:24 PM ] should we lament that baseball isn;t the dangerous choice steve? i don't really see the Xgames picking up too much steam in the mainstream. maybe UFC has become more mainstream, but they had to clean themselves up, make their sport safer and more palatable for that to happen. so, i don't really know waht that means for you. There was a different undertone that I was going with "dangerous" there than a bloodsport or a sport that targets pot headed slackers. There is still sadly a segment of the population that still sees certain sports like baseball as "white" and basketball as "black" and mostly in white, suburban America. ] and was the fanbase so heavily judaic, that an insufficient quantity of gentiles was available to fill the stadium in their absence? or were teh good christians observing as well, as a sign of good will and neighborliness? c'mon! I was just saying what usually is given as an "excuse" Maybe it was more of the fact that it was a work/school day as well, and a clear sign that baseball's time as a weekday afternoon affair would be coming to an end (of course that wouldn't happen untill network TV packages started coming into play) patona314 Dec 05 2006 11:29 PM ="SteveJRogers"] patona314 wrote: ="SteveJRogers"] Gary Matthew Jr.'s new contract is good evidence that baseball is alive and well. I've seen insane NBA and NHL contracts, are we saying they are still alive and well in the sense MLB is? i'm saying that baseball generates a shitload of revenue. otherwise jr. doesn't get this kind of money. remember, the arguement was that baseball was on the decline for what it's worth, the NBA and NHL (since you mentioned it) smell like my grandfather Frayed Knot Dec 05 2006 11:31 PM ]Different time, different era in terms of use of discretionary income. But the TV ratings - which is basically your only ammo once we brush aside these sepia-toned phony "memories" of the good ol' days that never were - AREN'T a result of different times, different factors? Computers, on-demand movies, 200 channels, and a multitude of other sports & entertainment choices be damned: TV ratings are down therefore baseball must be dying, there's no other answer!! Y'see, this is an example (another one actually) of your bullshit tactic of coming up with the answer first and then cherry-picking and bending evidence to retro-fit your conclusion. Gee, Monday Night Football ratings are a fraction of where they once were to the point where the network was losing millions on it (as the networks do on the Sunday packages btw) and shifted the whole deal to their cable baby brother. Oh yeah, and the NFL expanded their season, first to 16 games and then to 16 games over 17 weeks (they even tried 18) and expanded their playoffs for the sole reason of making the networks happy or else accept a smaller right package ($$) had they not done so and couldn't bear the PR hit they would have taken for that ... therefore, Football is a dying sport too!!! See how much fun this is? ]Also wasn't that low attendance often attributed to it being one of the High Holy Days for the Jewish faith? No. Edgy DC Dec 05 2006 11:33 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Dec 05 2006 11:34 PM Let's corrall this. ]I never said MLB baseball would die out completely, I mean the NHL, MLS and WNBA are still in operation and all, Then this is stupid (even stupider!) because that's what you open with. ]I'm just saying that people are wrong in thinking A) it will ever retake the top spot A comment made by nobody and nobody. ] and B) that it's current standing is secure and there will be a time where it will no longer be in the top ten in terms of sports. I read today that there'll be a time when we all turn to grey goo. All sorts of things will happen in time. The point you disputed was "To be fair, Bud's other legacies will be enormous spikes in the popularity and profitability of the game that enriched all its participants but the fans." This remains a pretty fair point. Obvious really. Your arguments particularly reinforce it. Johnny Dickshot Dec 05 2006 11:33 PM Rogers, we've indulged enough of this silly supposition, bad math and tortured logic. I'm sorry to inform you you've been traded to Kansas City. metsmarathon Dec 05 2006 11:47 PM i'm still trying to figure out why baseball's being a safe choice for families and kids makes it a bad, doomed thing. i guess maybe that makes it trend towards uncool? but then, its most popular in new york and LA, the beacons of coolness in american culture - the trendsetters! and its the most popular amongst the most growingest demographic - hispanics - and another terrifically influencial fan base - 18-27 year olds.. so, its fan base is bot entrencd & stable, and growing and influencial, and its most popular in our traditional cultural bellwethers. and somehow it is dying. seriously. i do not get it. but 37,000 fans in philly is an empty stadium too. Elster88 Dec 06 2006 12:29 AM This thread is amusing but ultimately... SteveJRogers Dec 07 2006 07:07 PM Yancy Street Gang wrote: Ted, if it helps any I had never heard of Harden either. Twenty years ago I knew who every player was. Since 1994, I only follow the Mets and I'm not embarrassed to admit to my lack of knowledge of other teams. I'll know all about Harden if he becomes a Met. And if he doesn't, he simply doesn't matter to me. I REST my case! And no, baseball is not dying because the proprietor of UMDB has no idea who one of the best young arms in the AL is. Maybe it's a different argument alltogether I don't know, that sports has lost any sense of "mistique" about them that the true passion of following the entire league is gone for many. But can I at least say the interest in baseball is starkly different than it has been in the past? Maybe it's not on a respirator or anything, but it's just not the same "sport." And no, that's not "waxing nostalgic" for something that really wasn't there to begin with, but maybe just too much "real life" has entered the main stream discussion of baseball. Maybe that's what should have been my argument =;) Yancy Street Gang Dec 07 2006 07:18 PM My lack of interest in Harden is a reflection on me more than it is on the health of the game. If I was 20 years old right now instead of 43, I'm sure I'd know who he was. SteveJRogers Dec 07 2006 07:20 PM I know Yance, just needed something to latch on to in order to somehow vaildate or justify my belief that baseball just isn't the same. I really think there are more of you out there than people here care to admit. KC Dec 07 2006 07:49 PM SJR: >>>I really think there are more of you out there than people here care to admit.<<< Yeah, the number of kickass team database sites out there is getting to be a such a yawner. Steve, you're a *****edited for family viewing*****. Validate and justify that. DocTee Dec 07 2006 07:50 PM Steve: How do you account for the proliferation of fantasy leagues/rotisserie leagues/ and sim leagues? Doesn't that elevate Joe Six-Packs knowledge of out-of-towners and show that the "average"fan is just as interested in MLB today as was the strat-o-matic guru of the halcyon 1960s and 70s? SteveJRogers Dec 07 2006 08:23 PM DocTee wrote: Steve: How do you account for the proliferation of fantasy leagues/rotisserie leagues/ and sim leagues? Doesn't that elevate Joe Six-Packs knowledge of out-of-towners and show that the "average"fan is just as interested in MLB today as was the strat-o-matic guru of the halcyon 1960s and 70s? No, it really doesn't. The proliferation is more a byproduct of the information age. Yes it means that fantasy league guy is no longer thought of in the same vein as Dungeons and Dragons guy and the sterotype of living in their parent's basement with no girl friend and barely self sustaining themselves is a thing of the past, but the fact that there are more players out there is a byproduct of more ways to sign up for leagues and whatnot. The stigma of it is gone, but does that say much? There could be just as many people who sign up for a league and either never make a move after the first month or so or only make transactions based on knowledge of the player. "Yeah I'll give you Fransico Liriano for Mark Mulder straight up" Edgy DC Dec 07 2006 09:42 PM He had rested and everything. metsmarathon Dec 07 2006 11:54 PM SteveJRogers wrote: ="Yancy Street Gang"]Ted, if it helps any I had never heard of Harden either. Twenty years ago I knew who every player was. Since 1994, I only follow the Mets and I'm not embarrassed to admit to my lack of knowledge of other teams. I'll know all about Harden if he becomes a Met. And if he doesn't, he simply doesn't matter to me. I REST my case! And no, baseball is not dying because the proprietor of UMDB has no idea who one of the best young arms in the AL is. Maybe it's a different argument alltogether I don't know, that sports has lost any sense of "mistique" about them that the true passion of following the entire league is gone for many. But can I at least say the interest in baseball is starkly different than it has been in the past? Maybe it's not on a respirator or anything, but it's just not the same "sport." And no, that's not "waxing nostalgic" for something that really wasn't there to begin with, but maybe just too much "real life" has entered the main stream discussion of baseball. Maybe that's what should have been my argument =;) if you ever do figure out what your argument is, maybe its that you think sport in general is doomed to suffocate from the weight of its own success. perhaps refine that to read professional sport as big ticket mainstream avenues of entertainment. metsmarathon Dec 08 2006 12:05 AM SteveJRogers wrote: No, it really doesn't. The proliferation is more a byproduct of the information age. i'm not sure how much more the internet could proliferate right now. there are cows in kansas with their own myspace pages. well, i actually haven't checked that, but i wouldn't be terribly surprised. i would surmise that the number of households with access to the internet either at home or at work has pretty much plateaued for a while, and is likely to be tracking closely to the rate of population increase, as there really aren't all too many people off the grid anymore. ]The stigma of it is gone, but does that say much? There could be just as many people who sign up for a league and either never make a move after the first month or so or only make transactions based on knowledge of the player. "Yeah I'll give you Fransico Liriano for Mark Mulder straight up" this sounds like something that could be discerned, perhaps in a sorta-scientific poll. and if they sign back up the next time around, i would surmise that they are still sufficiently interested in baseball to risk anonymous humiliation at the hands of perfect strangers. also, the proliferation issue cuts both ways. increased proliferation of internet means increased proliferation of alternate sources of entertainment, casual games for instance, that would be perhaps more enticing to Joey Sixes if he really weren't all too into baseball. yet in the face of this torrent of distracting media, he still makes the effort to sign up and play for a trophy that isn't even there. that has to count for something. and of course, its all fairly quantifiable. how many people sign up for fantasy baseball? how many are new to it? how may people don't pay attention, either to their teams or their transactions? how many of them quit after a year? how many come back? how many pay more attention to baseball as a result? how many pay less? Frayed Knot Dec 08 2006 10:18 AM ="SteveJRogers"]I know Yance, just needed something to latch on to in order to somehow vaildate or justify my belief that baseball just isn't the same. Oh good, for a second there I was afraid that you were reaching conclusions first and then selectively searching for evidence to "prove' your pre-determined outcome. ]But can I at least say the interest in baseball is starkly different than it has been in the past? Maybe it's not on a respirator or anything, but it's just not the same "sport." All of which pre-supposes this notion that you've used as the entire basis for your thesis that fans everywhere in days gone by knew everything about all players on all teams, something you haven't come close to backing up other than to merely assume it to be true. I'll contend that the advent of national TV packages which bring a half-dozen out-of-town games per week to most fans and even more to those who opt for them, plus the internet/inforrmation age and almost hourly hi-light/wrap-up type shows bring a whole lot more knowledge of players and the game itself to the average fan today as compared to his counterpart of yesteryear. The are myriad stories from players of old whose ML debut was also the first first big league game and stadium they ever saw. I personally can remember watching All-star games as a kid simply to find out what some of the AL stars looked like. Guys like Harmon Killebrew & Frank Howard were almost akin to exotic foods one had heard of buy never sampled simply because they were merely names in black & white in newspapaers who you rarely got to see otherwise. And this doesn't even include the vast majority of the country whose lone exposure was Game of the Week plus maybe some far-off radio signal.