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Zee-Toe

Frayed Knot Dec 05 2006 02:58 PM

Now that the two sides have apparently met (at least w/Boras) it's probably a good idea to give this topic it's own thread as we follow the trials & tribulations of this soap opera which probably won't end anytime soon. Starting with the excerpt from Jayson Stark's blog from the other thread: The Mets and Barry Zito's agent, Scott Boras, haven't talked money yet. But they clearly have a major philosophical difference about the potential length of Zito's contract, according to a source who spoke with both Boras and Mets GM Omar Minaya. Boras has told teams that Zito's deal needs to be at least six years. But the Mets don't want to go beyond four years. And it's nearly impossible to envision them extending past five years. This could be a gigantic obstacle, but an official of another team that has kicked Zito's tires said Tuesday: "I wouldn't believe any of that talk. I still think the Mets will do whatever it takes to get Zito, despite what everyone is saying now." • Another source who has spoken with the Mets advises us to discount reports that the club is actively pursuing Miguel Batista or any other free-agent starter besides Zito. The Mets were interested in Vicente Padilla before he re-signed with Texas. But with him off the board, the Mets are "not in on Batista or any of those guys at this time," the source said. "The only guy they have high-level interest in right now is [Zito]." Which seems like more confirmation that the Mets remain Zito's most likely destination. • No agent is more famous for overplaying his hand than Boras. So one GM joked last week that Boras had so little interest going in Zito this year that, other than the Mets, "it's all mystery teams. Usually, with Scott, you have four or five real teams and one mystery team. This year, it's one real team and all the rest are mystery teams." But that has changed since the meetings began. The Rangers, Mariners and Angels are all "definitely in" on Zito, according to one club that has been talking to Boras. However, Boras could be running into similar roadblocks with two of those teams that he has run into with the Mets. Because both Texas and Seattle are wary of being used to drive up some other team's price tag, neither wants to offer a contract longer than four years. The Angels' intentions are a little more mysterious. But one executive wondered "if they have any money left, after giving their center fielder (Gary Matthews Jr.) $50 million."

metirish Dec 05 2006 03:51 PM

Here's what I think,5 years at $60 million with an attainable player option for a sixth year,of course Hicks might just blow everyone away....

Iubitul Dec 05 2006 03:57 PM

metirish wrote: Here's what I think,5 years at $60 million with an attainable player option for a sixth year,of course Hicks might just blow everyone away.... I don't think that gets it done. I like the 5 years with the 6th year option, but I think it will take closer to $70-$75 million

metirish Dec 05 2006 04:05 PM

Yes,the player option would bring the deal to $75 million,throw in some other clauses like,win a Cy Young and get an extra $2 million,I think Omar can get creative and he seems quite persausive so I think Zito is coming..

Nymr83 Dec 05 2006 04:16 PM

as usual, I care more about years than dollar signs.. I'd rather give Zito $16m per year for 4 years than give him $14m per year over 6 years. I have less objection to including "reasonably obtainable options" (ie options that are sure to kick in if he's healthy) than i do to a deal that is 6 years no matter what as injury is my major concern, i doubt this guy will simply fall off the face of the earth (Chan Ho Park style) unless he gets hurt.

Nymr83 Dec 05 2006 04:16 PM

as usual, I care more about years than dollar signs.. I'd rather give Zito $16m per year for 4 years than give him $14m per year over 6 years. I have less objection to including "reasonably obtainable options" (ie options that are sure to kick in if he's healthy) than i do to a deal that is 6 years no matter what as injury is my major concern, i doubt this guy will simply fall off the face of the earth (Chan Ho Park style) unless he gets hurt.

Iubitul Dec 05 2006 04:19 PM

metirish wrote: Yes,the player option would bring the deal to $75 million,throw in some other clauses like,win a Cy Young and get an extra $2 million,I think Omar can get creative and he seems quite persausive so I think Zito is coming.. No - I think it would have to be $70-75 million for the first five.

Johnny Dickshot Dec 05 2006 04:31 PM

I'm with the tall libertarian.

KC Dec 05 2006 05:07 PM

Who is that?

MFS62 Dec 05 2006 07:02 PM

If all else fails, Boras will go back to the Rangers owner who spends like a teenager at the mall with daddy's credit card. Scott, who's your (sugar) daddy? Later

metirish Dec 05 2006 07:05 PM

MFS62 wrote: If all else fails, Boras will go back to the Rangers owner who spends like a teenager at the mall with daddy's credit card. Scott, who's your (sugar) daddy? Later Well not to defend Boras but I imagine that's why Zito hired him,to get the biggest contract possible....

smg58 Dec 05 2006 07:22 PM

I'm not so concerned about years. Zito is similar to Glavine, always trying to outsmart hitters because he can't overpower them. Glavine remains an above average pitcher at 41 largely because he's never needed to overtax his arm to succeed, and Zito strikes me as being the same type of pitcher. He's certainly been a model of durability up to this point, and I'd be willing to bet he stays that way. The Mets need to decide how good a pitcher they think Barry Zito really is. Is he the guy who's been good but not elite the past three seasons, or the Cy Young caliber pitcher he was his first three years when Rick Peterson was his pitching coach? Whoever signs him will be paying for the latter, whether they get that pitcher or not.

KC Dec 05 2006 08:04 PM

I wouldn't care if he signed with an AL team for stupidish big money. Given the amount of dough some rather mediocre guys have already signed for I'm sure that Boras is licking his chops thinking the Mets will do anything to make it so. I hope the Mets have a point where they aren't afraid of four weeks of news- paper stories, talk radio, and internet yabba yabba if they let him go somewhere else and just know when to NO THANKS. I'll take him, the Mets need pitching, but please don't go overboard just to win out, particularly in terms of years, just for the ridiculous auction process.

SteveJRogers Dec 05 2006 08:11 PM

KC wrote: I hope the Mets have a point where they aren't afraid of four weeks of news- paper stories, talk radio, and internet yabba yabba if they let him go somewhere else and just know when to NO THANKS. You mean like a SS 6 years ago? The Wilpon's may have finally lived that one down, but I think Phillips has been trying to fight the "24 and One" comment by praising PayRod often on his commentaries.

KC Dec 05 2006 08:26 PM

No that's not what I mean. How you get from point a to point b many times is just freakin' astounding ... but thanks for letting my little post go unanswered for a whole seven minutes without anyone bringing up Wilpon, Arod, or Steve Phillips.

Nymr83 Dec 05 2006 09:39 PM

Johnny Dickshot wrote: I'm with the tall libertarian. who is the libertarian?

cleonjones11 Dec 05 2006 11:58 PM

Abe Lincoln?

attgig Dec 06 2006 02:05 AM

i could see 4 years at 60 with a 5th year option for 15-20 and a 3-5 mil buyout. 4/60 seems ok, and the 5th year option appeases borass. the buyout is the route the mets go with unless zito's amazing.

iramets Dec 06 2006 03:37 AM

No, he'll go higher than that. I'd thought he had a declining year in '06, but that was based on a judgment I came to after his poor start (opening day against the Yankees he left with a 47.00 and change ERA, and he went 2-3 in his first five decisions, including two losses to the Yankees, so I thought he'd had an off-year, but it really wasn't after all was said and done.) He's worth at least Pedro-money--not as spectacular a pitcher, but much more durable. No way we're getting him for less than 5 years and 75 mil. That would be a bargain in this market, and I'll think he'll get at least 6 years and over 90 mil. The Mets will blink first, and overpay to get Zito. I always imagine that there;s a sliding scale to sign Free Agents: for Zito to sign a one-year deal, the figure would be, I don't know, 30 mil? And as you assume further risks, the annual bite gets lower and lower, so maybe we're talking about 2007 30 mil 2008 22 mil 2009 13 mil 2010 8 mil 2011 7 mi 2012 5 mil with a 5 mil buyout for 2013. This is just for the purposes of computing his value, not the actual structure of a deal. Obviously his value for 2007 is highest because that's the year you're figuring the probability of a great season is highest. I wonder if agents make such offers explicitly--if Boras says, "You want Zito for three years? Fine, we want 65 mil for a three year deal, and the next three years cost you another 25 mil. Which deal do you like? Your call."

Rotblatt Dec 06 2006 07:48 AM

]No way we're getting him for less than 5 years and 75 mil. That would be a bargain in this market, and I'll think he'll get at least 6 years and over 90 mil. The Mets will blink first, and overpay to get Zito. $90M for 6 years in this market doesn't seem so terrible to me. I don't think he's an ace, but he only turns 29 next year, and he's been pretty durable. If we can get him at $75M over 5, with an option and, say, a $3M buyout, that's even better. I don't know if it's possible, though, if Texas really is talking $100M over 6 years. Paying that much is a little crazy, from where I sit, and trying to better it? Gah. I'd rather we try to trade for one of the White Sox pitchers.

metsmarathon Dec 06 2006 08:59 AM

iramets wrote: 2007 30 mil 2008 22 mil 2009 13 mil 2010 8 mil 2011 7 mi 2012 5 mil with a 5 mil buyout for 2013. i'd expect the curve to be a bit flatter, but its a realistic methodology. it may not be how the agent goes into the negotiations, but surely something akin to this is in his mind.

Edgy DC Dec 06 2006 09:36 AM

According to Randolph, he's a horsefish... with an arsenal. "He's not a typical horse. He's not an overpowering guy but he's got enough in his arsenal to win his share of ballgames. He's the big fish right now everyone is knocking themselves over to get to. Hopefully, he'll look at New York as the place he wants to spend the next four or five years."

MFS62 Dec 06 2006 09:40 AM

I heard yesterday on the radio that Zito is interested in a music/ entertainment career, and that is why playing in New York is very attractive to him. It may overcome the extra dollars that Hicks might throw at him. Later

Vic Sage Dec 07 2006 10:21 AM

yeah, but Boras doesn't get a commission on those revenue streams. Scotty will steer Zito to whoever offers the richest deal. Look, if there were a better pitcher available either as a FA or thru trade, i'd agree that outbidding Texas would be silly; or if we were looking to spend money elsewhere to make a big impact (like 2b or OF), I'd agree we shouldn't go hogwild for Zito. But at this point, Zito is the guy. It appears we're not prepared to make any other moves. We need a solid pitcher in our rotation if we expect to go to the WS, and right now i'm not sanguine about a single arm we've got pencilled in. Don't tell me we're a better team without his 200 IP/32 GS. So, if it takes an extra year and an extra $10-$20m (over 6 years) to sign him, i think we should. Or we can count on guys like Maine, Perez and Dave Williams (behind Glavine & El Duque) to carry us.

Yancy Street Gang Dec 07 2006 10:25 AM

I'm with Vic. Zito looks to be their best remaining option and they should do what they need to do to get him. Of course, if Texas offers $252 million over ten years, the Mets shouldn't top that; they do need limits. But they should push to their limit, and a little beyond, if they have to.

Edgy DC Dec 07 2006 10:27 AM

Vic Sage wrote: It appears we're not prepared to make any other moves. This is the part I don't buy for a minute.

Frayed Knot Dec 07 2006 10:36 AM

Well, if you believe all the scuttlebutt, the Mets are more nervous about the years than the dollars - although I suppose you could argue it's all the same thing. What Boras/Zito reportedly are looking for is somewhere in the 6x$17 range to start and then maybe push it up from there by going the usual route of convincing each team that there's an un-named suitor on hold that minute ready and willing to go higher. Could I [you] live with that? ... I probably wouldn't swallow any harder on it than I did with the Beltran, Pedro or Wagner deals. Best line of the day yesterday was (NYDN's) Bill Madden saying that Boras is trying to convince the BoSox that he has a mystery country bidding on Matsuzaka.

Rotblatt Dec 07 2006 10:37 AM

Me too, Edgy. Latest word is, we're exploring a trade of Milledge & Heilman + prospect (Humber?) for Haren. That's a lot to give up, but Haren is a pretty exciting kid, and someone I'd value quite a bit higher than Zito. If Humber's the prospect, it might be too much for me, but it's certainly worth considering. In other words, we don't have to play the free market game if it's not to our liking, since we have some chips available to trade.

Vic Sage Dec 07 2006 10:44 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Dec 07 2006 10:45 AM

and i'm fine with saving our chips for a major deal, if that ends up being Omar's strategy. but what i DON'T want us to do is go into the season with the current rotation because we insisted on staying at 5yr/$75m rather than go 6yrs/$100m on Zito. frankly, we'd be better off making the Harden trade AND signing Zito.

Yancy Street Gang Dec 07 2006 10:45 AM

I'd rather they spend the money and keep the chips.

seawolf17 Dec 07 2006 10:46 AM

I agree with Yancy. The money's there; what's $25 million? Don't you think the Red Sox would rather have Johnny Damon at his contract than J.D. Drew at his contract? I think Zito's probably going to be worth it... spend the money.

Rotblatt Dec 07 2006 10:50 AM

Vic Sage wrote: and i'm fine with saving our chips for a major deal, if that ends up being Omar's strategy. but what i DON'T want us to do is go into the season with the current rotation because we insisted on staying at 5yr/$75m rather than go 6yrs/$100m on Zito. I totally agree with you on that, Vic. ETA: Oh, and both signing Zito & trading for Haren would be pretty sweet.

sharpie Dec 07 2006 10:52 AM

I thought the scuttlebut was Rich Harden not Danny Haren.

Rotblatt Dec 07 2006 10:56 AM

sharpie wrote: I thought the scuttlebut was Rich Harden not Danny Haren. Oh. Well, that changes things a bit, huh? Lots of upside, but injury prone is his deal, right? The deal might still be worth it, but it'd make me think we needed Zito, too, since he's pretty durable . . .

Vic Sage Dec 07 2006 11:10 AM

Milledge, Heilman + Humber 4 Harden? I'd do that in a heartbeat, because: 1) Harden is one of the top young starters in baseball, ready to be a real ace; 2) his injury history is what makes him risky, but its also what makes him available; 3) Humber's upside simply means he might one day approach what Harden already is, and his injury history is pretty significant, too; 4) Heilman is wasted in NY, where he's used neither a closer nor a starter, and is just one of a number of good setup men currently in the pen; 5) Milledge doesn't appear to be a significant part of the `07 team, and with the trade for Johnson, and the 2 young CF studs down on the farm, and his questionable attitude and work habits, he's become extremely expendable. yeah, sign me up for this one.

Edgy DC Dec 07 2006 11:13 AM

That's too much. That's a package you put together for Willis; you've got to pull one of those guys out for Harden.

Farmer Ted Dec 07 2006 11:26 AM

Milledge, Heilman + Humber for Harden? Your giving up three nice chips for a guy, until yesterday, I had never heard of. Put down the fork and step away from the fruitcake. It looks good, but it tastes like crap.

Vic Sage Dec 07 2006 11:31 AM

Harden's ERA+ of 123+ and 1.277 WHIP compares favorably with Willis' 120+ and 1.299. Of course Willis has 200 IP/30+ GS each of the last 3 seasons, and Harden has had only 1 full season so far, so his injury risk is considerable. But it is considerable for Humber, too. And Milledge hasn't proved anything yet. And Heilman is, so far, only successful as a setup guy. Since I don't think you could get Willis for that package, I'd be willing to get Harden for that.

Vic Sage Dec 07 2006 11:32 AM

Ted, your ignorance of Harden doesn't mean fruitcake to me.

Rotblatt Dec 07 2006 11:38 AM

]But it is considerable for Humber, too. And Milledge hasn't proved anything yet. And Heilman is, so far, only successful as a setup guy. Since I don't think you could get Willis for that package, I'd be willing to get Harden for that. I wouldn't complain if we made the deal, but I don't think we'd have a clear advantage. Which I suppose means I think it's a fair deal . . .

Nymr83 Dec 07 2006 12:05 PM

Farmer Ted's not knowing who Harden is lowers my opinion of Ted, not Harden... nonetheless i think Milledge, Heilman, and Humber is just a bit too much. ]Heilman is wasted in NY, where he's used neither a closer nor a starter, and is just one of a number of good setup men currently in the pen; i would not hesitate to move Heilman as part of a package for a good starter, but along with Milledge and Humber its too much.

Vic Sage Dec 07 2006 12:11 PM

its too much if Harden implodes. But then again, anything would be too much if Harden implodes. But if he picks up where he left off, as a 24 year old dominating power pitcher, he becomes the ace we need to get over the hump. And if you can get such a guy without taking a single impact player from your major-league team, i think you do it. Humber has had multiple injuries. Milledge's stock is down. Heilman is a setup guy. Lets be real, folks. You don't get if you don't give. IF it don't hurt, you didn't do it right. Lets stop trying to rape another team and settle for a deal that helps both sides.

Edgy DC Dec 07 2006 12:14 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Dec 07 2006 12:23 PM

I think your giving with two of those guys. I don't think I want to frame it as if he implodes and if he doesn't, but put a very real value lost on the possiblity that he might. All trades are good if they fly, all trades are bad if they don't. Instead, you make a risk assessment and factor that into the value. I say too risky. They lose one of the players in that package because of that risk.

Vic Sage Dec 07 2006 12:22 PM

different people have different levels of risk tolerence. But its not just about risk... its about risk/reward. If you agree that the reward of a healthy Harden is significant, greatly increasing our chances of post-season success, then you have to weigh that against the risk accordingly. we've just come to a different calculation on this analysis.

Edgy DC Dec 07 2006 12:25 PM

Agreed. A healthy Harden is worth three of those guys to me. A questionable Harden is worth two. And I just can't conceive how we've come this far iinto the conversation with no punning.

Centerfield Dec 07 2006 12:33 PM

Me too. If only Harden went by "Dick". It would open up so much...

Edgy DC Dec 07 2006 12:38 PM

I mean, the question is on the table, "What's a healthy Harden worth to you?" I've got Centerfield and Vic Sage in the thread and they've got nothing but restaint. Strange day.

metirish Dec 07 2006 12:42 PM

My question is this,why is Beane shopping his young studs,is he really that high on Lastings and Heilman or is he wanting to get rid of a few pitchers that he thinks are injury prone...

smg58 Dec 07 2006 12:44 PM

That's an excellent question, given that Harden is three years away from free agency. He also hasn't pitched 200 innings total in the past two seasons. Buyer beware?

iramets Dec 07 2006 12:46 PM

Maybe look into Beane's history of keeping certain pitchers and dealing others off, and which got hurt after being traded and after being kept?

metirish Dec 07 2006 12:47 PM

iramets wrote: Maybe look into Beane's history of keeping certain pitchers and dealing others off, and which got hurt after being traded and after being kept? Steve Rogers you are needed.....

Johnny Dickshot Dec 07 2006 12:50 PM

It's possible some of the talk helps the Mets' leverage v. Boras re: Zito. It's also possible that Beane is seeing an opportunity to reload/reduce $$ on the fly and he's a guy who acts sooner because he can't afford to wait till later. The Mets are in a position to splash for a stud starter one way or another, may as well try and benefit from it. Of course, it's also possible Harden and Haren expressed reservations about sharing a locker room with Piazza.

Farmer Ted Dec 07 2006 03:01 PM

"Farmer Ted's not knowing who Harden is lowers my opinion of Ted" Damn, still no friends on this damn board. Not knowing who Hard-On is simply means I don't have the opportunity to watch the 2 am SportsCenter every night or wait two days to get the late box scores in my bumpkin paper to know what the A's are putting on the mound each night. In any case, three highly-regarded players for a guy with what, 15 decent games under his belt, is too tall an order. The Mets didn't give up anything to get a similar poke in Oliver Perez.

Edgy DC Dec 07 2006 03:07 PM

Well, that ends that unlikely streak.

Yancy Street Gang Dec 07 2006 03:22 PM

Ted, if it helps any I had never heard of Harden either. Twenty years ago I knew who every player was. Since 1994, I only follow the Mets and I'm not embarrassed to admit to my lack of knowledge of other teams. I'll know all about Harden if he becomes a Met. And if he doesn't, he simply doesn't matter to me.

ABG Dec 07 2006 04:58 PM

Not knowing one of the top young pitchers in baseball really should disqualify you from this discussion.

KC Dec 07 2006 05:09 PM

Jeez, tough crowd. I love it when people who complain about negativity sign in just to make a crack about someone when it suits their fancy.

Yancy Street Gang Dec 07 2006 05:14 PM

ABG wrote: Not knowing one of the top young pitchers in baseball really should disqualify you from this discussion. I don't think so. It's mainly a discussion about Zito and the Mets anyway. Since I don't know about Harden, I'm not weighing in on how much the Mets should or shouldn't give up for him. But there's a lot more to the discussion than just that.

ScarletKnight41 Dec 07 2006 05:20 PM

I had read somewhere that the Mets might be interested in Danny Haren, as opposed to Rich Harden. I wonder whether that would give Zito more incentive to sign with the Mets, since Zito had taken Haren under his wing in Oakland.

ABG Dec 07 2006 05:28 PM

Yancy Street Gang wrote: ="ABG"]Not knowing one of the top young pitchers in baseball really should disqualify you from this discussion. I don't think so. It's mainly a discussion about Zito and the Mets anyway. Since I don't know about Harden, I'm not weighing in on how much the Mets should or shouldn't give up for him. But there's a lot more to the discussion than just that. I was referring more to Ted's comment that we shouldn't give up certain players for a guy he'd never heard of.

Farmer Ted Dec 07 2006 05:46 PM

"I was referring more to Ted's comment that we shouldn't give up certain players for a guy he'd never heard of" Boy wonder, you're missing the point. WHY would you give up three of your best young players for a speculative player in return? As a fan, would you not want your team to get a known and durable entity? Those same three Mets players were being dangled for Barry Zito and Dontrelle Willis not too long ago. And now you want to package the same three for Rich Harden? Rich Freaking Harden? Yeah, I don't know the guy too well. I don't have his baseball card stuck in my spokes. I do know you can get more and better in return for a package of Heilman, Milledge, Humber, et al. One of the "top young pitchers in baseball" just spent three months on the DL for a sprained ligament in his pitching arm. This "trade" has the familiar stench of Victor Zambrano all over it.

ABG Dec 07 2006 06:22 PM

Farmer Ted wrote: "I was referring more to Ted's comment that we shouldn't give up certain players for a guy he'd never heard of" Boy wonder, you're missing the point. WHY would you give up three of your best young players for a speculative player in return? As a fan, would you not want your team to get a known and durable entity? Those same three Mets players were being dangled for Barry Zito and Dontrelle Willis not too long ago. And now you want to package the same three for Rich Harden? Rich Freaking Harden? Yeah, I don't know the guy too well. I don't have his baseball card stuck in my spokes. I do know you can get more and better in return for a package of Heilman, Milledge, Humber, et al. One of the "top young pitchers in baseball" just spent three months on the DL for a sprained ligament in his pitching arm. This "trade" has the familiar stench of Victor Zambrano all over it. You don't even KNOW WHO HE IS.

Nymr83 Dec 07 2006 06:29 PM

Rich "freaking" Harden is arguably a better bet going forward than Barry Zito. not that I have any problem with Zito.

smg58 Dec 07 2006 10:15 PM

Let me see a full season with an ERA better than 3.99 before I'd call Harden a better long-term bet than Zito. At this point, he's basically a prospect with a very high upside but also with major injury concerns. Not quite in the Wood/Prior category as far as risk, but too close to that for me to be comfortable with.

Frayed Knot Dec 12 2006 12:14 AM

ESPN sez: "The Texas Rangers have made a formal offer to left-hander Barry Zito, according to multiple media reports that cited club officials." No specifics were mentioned.

Nymr83 Dec 12 2006 12:20 AM

Were they bidding against the Mets or a Boras-created phantom team?

Yancy Street Gang Dec 13 2006 11:44 AM

Trivial aside: Looking at the alphabetical list of Mets players (because of the "interesting image" thread) I noticed that Barry Zito, if he signed with the Mets, would replace Don Zimmer as the last alphabetical Met, a position he's held for almost 45 years. And the list has both started and ended with guys named "Don" since Don Aase displaced Tommie Agee at the top of the list back in 1989. Now, back to less trivial stuff...

duan Dec 14 2006 07:39 AM

You have to think that if the Mets are going to get Zito he's going to command a 8 figure contract over 6ish years. I'm not sure I want to do that, but we do have the money to. I think Zito's a good be to be an 'above average starter' for the duration of that deal; he's also a pretty good bet as pitchers go to be healthy for most of it. I also think, with Glavine coming off the books this year or next he won't stop us pursuing Johan Santana et al when they come up for free agency. He's the best pitcher on the market, it's an expensive market, but it's not like he's Gil Meche who's as likely to break down or not be very good as he is be decent and is the same age. [side issue; whatever about the effect of Peterson (and I wouldn't discount that) the effect of Shea and the NL will give Zito a lift too]

ScarletKnight41 Dec 14 2006 08:52 AM

I don't know that Shea would give Zito all that much of a lift over Oakland - that stadium has a huge amount of foul territory, which benefits pitchers at least as much as Shea's dimensions do.

seawolf17 Dec 14 2006 09:05 AM

But the A's are moving to Santa Clara, which means they're getting a new ballpark, which means more money and more opportunities for promotion. So it's not so far-fetched.

sharpie Dec 14 2006 09:20 AM

They're not moving for a few years and the A's aren't players in the current Zito sweepstakes so that isn't a factor. No question that Shea would be a better park for Zito than the Ballpark in Arlington. Of course Shea won't be around much longer either.

Frayed Knot Dec 14 2006 10:12 AM

Don't think the park/league changes would matter all that much to Zito Park Factors for pitchers in recent years: (100 = neutral, <100 favors pitchers, >100 favors hitters) [u:75106e81b0]Oakland[/u:75106e81b0] 2003 = 94 2004 = 101 2005 = 103 2006 = 97 [u:75106e81b0]Shea[/u:75106e81b0] 2003 = 99 2004 = 99 2005 = 99 2006 = 96 League ERAs 2006: AL = 4.56 NL = 4.49 It would really be nice if writers/radio people woud stop acting as if an AL to NL move was worth about .75 ER/G for a hurler

duan Dec 14 2006 12:30 PM

park factors are not equal. While I don't have the figures here; I seem to remember someone in BP proposing that the *nature* of them varies wildly. ie: some parks are just gravy for LH power while being death to the average pull righty. Similarly there are ones that surpress batting average (actually large foul territory may be a good example of one that does that, in that there's more outs on balls that aren't actually in play then in others). Now I don't know if Zito's uniquely suited to Shea over the Colliseum, but I've seen it written by guys who are smart and in depth enough to be aware these things to think that he may be. Finally, league wide era doesn't tell you the full picture; in that, a league wide era measures the subset of hitters vs pitchers in each league, rather then measuring them together (which by it's nature would be impossible) if, as has been argued over the last couple of years, the AL is a league with better hitting & better pitching the ERA's could be the exact same as the NL with inferior hitting & inferior pitching, as the ERA depends on the interaction between hitting & pitching rather then being a direct co-relation of the quality of one of them. The only way you actually compare is by looking at the success of transitional players. The ones that jump out at you this season are Soriano & Arroyo, but who's to say it isn't just a good season rather then moving to an easier league.

duan Dec 14 2006 12:36 PM

them is clunky clauses i got in there.

Edgy DC Dec 14 2006 01:03 PM

Clunky Claus used to come out on the toygiving runs with his more famous cousin Santa, but he just slowed the whole operation down.

Frayed Knot Dec 15 2006 04:20 PM

]... park factors are not equal. While I don't have the figures here; I seem to remember someone in BP proposing that the *nature* of them varies wildly. ie: some parks are just gravy for LH power while being death to the average pull righty All correct. Not just LH vs RH but some parks can help power while supressing 1Bs, 2Bs & 3Bs thus not really helping scoring, or vice-versa. The good news is that the fly-ball pitching Zito would most likely not be hurt by Shea but I don't think he was in Oakland either so I don't think it'll make a big difference to him one way or the other. Latest Zito news (more like news in anticipation of news): - Mets "getting ready to meet with Zito" or so says [url=http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/mets/ny-spmets155016514dec15,0,5659223.story?coll=ny-sports-headlines]Newsday's Ken Davidoff[/url] although no time or place has been set. - the only offer so far has been from Texas and no concrete numbers have been public so far although Davidoff (and other sources) have them as being "open to passing the $100mil mark" - Also mentions that the Mets have been in contact with pitcher Jeff Suppan but that he doesn't appear to be too high on their radar screen

Nymr83 Dec 15 2006 05:07 PM

I hope Suppan isn't even on the radar screen.

Rockin' Doc Dec 15 2006 07:42 PM

Radar? Suppan shouldn't even be on the Mets sonar. Get Zito, please.

Yancy Street Gang Dec 16 2006 07:12 AM

On the same page that contained this article is a link to another Post article from the other day saying, "Mets Lukewarm on Zito." Anyway, here's what they're saying today: ="The New York Post"] IN HOT PURSUIT By MICHAEL MORRISSEY December 16, 2006 -- When the Mets pull out all the stops on a recruiting pitch, they usually get their man. Ask Tom Glavine. Ask Billy Wagner. Barry Zito might get the chance to ask them if he visits the Big Apple next week. As the Mets prepare for their most important task of the offseason - landing Zito - they are bringing out the big guns. According to a baseball official, David Wright, Glavine and Wagner have been encouraged to woo Zito, and they are willing to do their part. Wright spoke publicly on the subject Wednesday, and Glavine told The Post last night that he would be willing to fly from Georgia to New York specifically to help persuade Zito. Glavine has never met Zito, but he would love to get to know the former Oakland ace. Glavine, a future Hall of Famer, knows it's crucial to get a young horse to anchor the rotation. "I think it's important, whether it's Barry or somebody else," Glavine said. "No question, if you look at the makeup of the team, the one thing we can stand to do is get younger in the front of the rotation. "Next year and years going forward, it's going to be important for us [to have someone] who is young and is durable and has been successful. Certainly Barry has met all the criteria." The Mets are gathering the troops while trying to line up something with Zito for next week. "There's a lot of guys who would help," a baseball official told The Post yesterday. In other words, what the Mets might lack in financial power, they'll try to make up in manpower. Once again yesterday, a source with knowledge of the Mets' plans said the team will not throw ridiculous dollars at the 28-year-old southpaw, who went 16-10 last season with a 3.83 ERA. The source said the Mets really aren't interested in going beyond a five-year deal. That could be a problem, given that Texas is reportedly willing to make a six-year, $100 million proposal. The Rangers already have a formal deal on the table, believed to be for at least five years. Another client of agent Scott Boras, Daisuke Matsuzaka, just signed a six-year pact with Boston. But as Glavine told The Post, the days of the Mets needing to outspend everyone else are over. Intangibles can make the difference. "I think the tides have turned in that regard," Glavine said. "For the Mets for so many years, they had to overpay for guys to come there. That really isn't the case anymore. They don't have to be a highest bidder anymore." As the 40-year-old lefty put it, if he can leave Atlanta after 16 years and have fun in New York and do well, anybody can move on. He touted the Mets' strengths - a good, young core coming off an NLCS appearance in the country's most vibrant city. "There are not too many better places than the Mets," Glavine said. "The future is extremely bright." michael.morrissey@nypost.com

patona314 Dec 16 2006 07:17 AM

wow, that coming from glavine about nyc. i guess he really is a met.

Yancy Street Gang Dec 19 2006 10:10 AM

Today is Shmooze Barry Day. The Mets are sending a four-man contingent to California to meet with Barry Zito and sell him on how great it would be to pitch for the Mets. Let's hope it works. I saw a quote from David Wright saying that he'd love to have a chance to tell Zito that New York would be the place to spend the next four or five years. Meanwhile, there are reports that Boras is talking six or seven. Hopefully they'll narrow the gap with a "five or six." Maybe a five-year contract that could vest into a sixth year based on innings. I have no objection to the Mets going to a sixth year for Zito. It's not my money, after all. And the Mets have very little money commited so far for 2012, which would be the sixth year. (I think only Wright's contract extends that far.) So, go get him, Omar! Turn on the charm, Jeff! Refrain from speaking Street Spanish, Tony! I want to see Zito at a Shea Stadium press conference shortly after the New Year.

Methead Dec 19 2006 10:15 AM

I remember driving to my parents house for Christmas when I heard the Hampton trade news on the radio. I'm hoping for an even better present this year. As you said, it's not my money!

Centerfield Dec 19 2006 10:33 AM

Yancy Street Gang wrote: Refrain from speaking Street Spanish, Tony! That was really funny.

Frayed Knot Dec 19 2006 10:40 AM

The Hampton trade (just before) and the Mo Vaughn trade (just after) both came Christmas week. That said, I don't expect a quick resolution to this one. Zito has already talked to Texas (supposedly an offer was made) and now gets a first meeting with Omar & gang. Seattle & San Fran are rumored to be interested and the Angels are often mentioned as a dark horse even though they've yet to say anything publicly. Then again, they were also quiet in the Vlad sweepstakes before swooping in under everyone's noses. That some even suspect Anaheim could get it on things is enough of an excuse to allow Boras to float the existance of a "mystery team" into the works. Well, that and that the Yanquis are never far below anyone's radar. So unless the Mets think they've got enough pull to force an early decision with some sort of 'take-it-or-leve-it' offer, I suspect that this tour's still got a few stops left on it and could easily extend until after New Years.

sharpie Dec 19 2006 10:47 AM

I had read (somewhere) that the Angels have formally pulled out of the Zitostakes. Giants don't really have the scratch to sign him. I guess the Mariners could pony up the money but I doubt they will. I really think it is between the Mets and Rangers.

Johnny Dickshot Dec 19 2006 10:57 AM

The MFYs signed on Igawa for 5 years, so I don't know if they want a 4th lefty.

Frayed Knot Dec 19 2006 11:05 AM

I don't think the Yanx are going to be in this either -- but that's not gonna stop Boras from pretending that they're the ones currently on hold on the other line. People are suspecting Anaheim mainly because there's this view that they've been quiet ... almost too quiet.

smg58 Dec 19 2006 11:56 AM

Here's yet another case of so many conflicting reports that you don't know who to believe. At this point, given that the two pitchers I'd have considered dealing for (Garcia and Jennings) have already been traded, I think it's Zito or nobody. And I don't want nobody.

Yancy Street Gang Dec 20 2006 12:52 PM

The latest from Mary Noble. Count me among the advocates of "passing gear." ="Marty Noble"] League waits on Mets' strategy 12/20/2006 9:15 AM ET By Marty Noble / MLB.com As shoppers in the free agent market, the Mets of recent vintage have shown a tendency to follow through and get their man. Once they pick up the scent of a player who appeals to them and who would fill a void in their roster, they seem to do what's necessary to close the deal, whether that entails adding money or years -- or both -- to an existing proposal. They seldom have retreated. The Mets afforded Tom Glavine what he wanted in December, 2002. The following year, the offer of fourth year under contract persuaded Pedro Martinez to move to Flushing, and a late-in-game increase in money brought Carlos Beltran to the Mets. Last year, it was a final push, fourth-year offer that convinced Billy Wagner to decline the Phillies' offer and move to Shea Stadium. Whether that type of persistent dedication is a component of the Mets' pursuit of Barry Zito remains to be seen. To this point, their approach has been one of spoken restraint. Until flying to California and meeting with Zito and his representative Tuesday, they had moved forward as if tethered to reluctance by a short elastic band. Whether their appearance of reservation is not merely appearance or part of a strategy -- or both -- is left to agent Scott Boras to measure. Others in the free agent market are watching the Mets now, most of them seemingly convinced the club won't retreat and that Zito will bring his curve ball and his 200-innings plus to Shea Stadium. They're just not sure whether the primary factor in this scenario will be Zito's desire to pitch for a New York team with a chance to play in the postseason or what one agent calls "Omar's momentum." Or both. "You get the feeling that if Zito gives a sign that he's real interested in playing in New York, Omar will shift into passing gear and get it done," a long-time agent said Tuesday night. Minaya is not alone in this pursuit, of course. And if he indeed has passing gear, it is fueled by the Wilpon treasury. Jeff Wilpon, the Mets COO, as well as Minaya's assistants John Ricco and Tony Bernazard, are parts of the four-man delegation that met with Boras and his client Tuesday. Each was in place before Beltran, also a Boras client, before the Mets agreed to pay the center fielder $119 million for seven years of service. Neither number in the Zito scenario will reach so high. The Mets are reluctant to afford a pitcher a contract of five years, though the average annual value of Zito's eventual contract -- whether he signs with the Mets, Rangers or Giants -- is likely to equal that of Beltran's. $17 million. "I think the Mets liked how last season went," the agent said. "What's not to like? With the talent they have, they have a chance to turn one year into the first year of a run. With the new park and the new network, that makes sense. If Omar is convinced that signing Zito assures them of that -- or at least makes them the favorite, he'll probably go into passing gear."

Yancy Street Gang Dec 23 2006 09:22 PM

="MLB.com"] Rangers acquire McCarthy from Sox 12/23/2006 7:44 PM ET By T.R. Sullivan / MLB.com ARLINGTON -- General manager Jon Daniels, admitting he is not "terribly encouraged" about being able to sign free-agent southpaw Barry Zito, achieved his goal of adding a front-line starting pitcher to the Rangers' rotation by acquiring right-hander Brandon McCarthy from the Chicago White Sox on Saturday. McCarthy, 23, who pitched out of the White Sox's bullpen last season, was acquired along with Minor League outfielder David Paisano for Minor League pitchers John Danks, Nick Masset and Jacob Rasner. Danks, who is from Round Rock, Texas, was the Rangers' No. 1 draft pick in 2003 and one of their top young pitching prospects, while Masset was a candidate for the bullpen next season. McCarthy, who is 4-7 with a 4.68 ERA for the White Sox in 2006, joins a rotation that already includes right-handers Kevin Millwood, Vicente Padilla and Robinson Tejeda. "In our minds, this is one of the elite, young, now-ready, battle-tested pitchers in the game," Daniels said. "As we go along, we've kept a list of the top young pitchers in the game and Brandon has always been at the top of the list." The Rangers remain interested in Zito and have made an offer that's believed to be in the $75-80 million range. But they have gone nowhere near offering the $100 million that's been thrown out there the past few weeks, and all indications are they aren't planning to do that. That's why it's unlikely he'll be coming to Arlington. "We're still interested in Barry, but I'm not optimistic," Daniels said. "I'm not terribly encouraged by our chances."

Rockin' Doc Dec 23 2006 09:50 PM

12/22/2006 8:05 PM ET Zito still searching for right fit Free-agent lefty says the race for his services is wide openBy Marty Noble / MLB.com The Mets evidently have made their offer -- or at least an offer -- to Barry Zito, as have all the clubs who have interest in signing the primary pitcher in the free-agent market. So, perhaps a sense of progress has developed. Or not. Zito, himself, pretty much squelched that notion of progress Thursday when he said, "It's wide open. It's still early, very early; it's not even time for the decision-making process. I'm not just jumping in. I'm waiting for my instincts to kick in." The former A's pitcher being courted by the Mets, Rangers, Giants, Mariners and Angels, was quoted in the Thursday editions of the San Francisco Chronicle. He characterized his dinner meeting with the Mets' four-man delegation Tuesday and meetings with other clubs with these words: "It's just like, 'Hey, how are you?' I think all those kinds of meetings go well. Everyone just smiles, says, 'Hi.'" Meanwhile, his agent, Scott Boras, told the Associated Press the clubs pursuing Zito have made offers, and that "We're past the preliminary meet-and-greet stages." "They're all good teams, and they're all good locations," Zito was quoted by the Chronicle as having said. "But what I'm looking for is an owner who sees eye-to-eye with me in my goal to lead a team to multiple World Series championships. "I want to raise the bar. It's great to get to the playoffs. But I think this year, we [the A's] were too satisfied with getting past the first round, myself included. I was so fired up to face [Johan] Santana at Minnesota that, coming back against Detroit, I don't think I had that same fire. "So I'm working on some mental stuff. I'm not going to be satisfied with anything else except getting a ring at this point in my career. I'm trying to lead a team like Sandy Koufax did, and I need an owner who shares that desire." The Mets are not commenting on their pursuit of Zito, but chances are the pitcher's words have reached the ears of Mets owner Fred Wilpon. And Wilpon was instrumental in persuading Tom Glavine to move to the Mets four years ago. Moreover, the owner has a long-standing friendship with the pitcher whose name Zito invoked. The Chronicle also reported Zito as refuting suggestions he is not equipped to be the ace of a staff, and speculating that some comments of that nature are attempts to suppress the bidding. "Everyone wants to talk about how I'm not a No. 1 starter or how I'm getting worse, just so they can save some money," Zito said. "I'd expect all that. I wouldn't be surprised if teams are putting this out to their media to create a collective consciousness, saying, 'Why should he get this or that?' "Everyone wants to buy low and sell high. But all we want is market value, and that's been set the past six [to] eight weeks. When you look at value, what's more valuable -- keeping another $20 million in the bank when you already have hundreds of millions of dollars, or getting a player of value? But let people panic, let them talk about me, say I [stink]. We'll see where the chips land." Marty Noble is a reporter for MLB.com. This story was not subject to the approval of Major League Baseball or its clubs.

Nymr83 Dec 24 2006 01:58 AM

]McCarthy, 23, who pitched out of the White Sox's bullpen last season, was acquired along with Minor League outfielder David Paisano for Minor League pitchers John Danks, Nick Masset and Jacob Rasner. i've heard of Danks but not these other 2 clowns... could the Mets have had McCarthy for Humber and two nobodies? the papers would have loved cracking headline jokes about his last name all summer...

iramets Dec 24 2006 06:57 AM

"Danks, but No Danks"

KC Dec 24 2006 08:56 AM

Sandy Koufax? Dude has a pretty high opinion of hisself. Hey, is Barry Jewish by any chance? OE: nevermind

Yancy Street Gang Dec 24 2006 09:49 AM

I thought Kevin Youkilis was Greek or somethin'.

iramets Dec 24 2006 10:03 AM

="KC"]Sandy Koufax? Dude has a pretty high opinion of hisself. Hey, is Barry Jewish by any chance? OE: nevermind He's applied to the Sanhedrin for permission to use the name "Barry" prior to actual conversion, and has been granted a waiver.

ScarletKnight41 Dec 24 2006 10:25 AM

="KC"]Sandy Koufax? Dude has a pretty high opinion of hisself. Hey, is Barry Jewish by any chance? OE: nevermind No. He just has a solid sense of baseball history.

KC Dec 24 2006 10:27 AM

That or he's a cocky wise-ass.

Frayed Knot Dec 24 2006 11:15 AM

Not sure that I buy the angle about this trade being a signal that Texas is less likely to pull off a Zito signing. Heck, I'd probably put out those vibes if I were them too -- 'Hey we love you Barry, just not $100mil worth so we'll do this instead!' -- but all they've really done is trade their own hot pitching prospect for another one about 1-year more advanced which could be looked at as a sign of telling the world (and Boras/Zito) that they're ready to compete NOW!!!! and aren't going to wait around for hopeful maybes. What this could do for those in the Zito market is take away a trade option. McCarthy was seen as someone ready to join the rotation this season possibly making one of the Contreras/Vazquez/Burhele group available. Danks, who I guess the ChiSox see as having a better upside than McCarthy, is probably at least a half-season or so away from contributing meaning that GM Kenny Williams is now probably less willing to deal away one of his vets.

Edgy DC Dec 24 2006 12:18 PM

I'm not sure we should feel our team was outflanked that somebody else moved on Brandon McCarthy. He seems like a younger, less accomplished version of Aaron Heilman. The interesting thing about this trade is that it maybe gives an idea of what Heilman's real value is on the market.

Frayed Knot Dec 26 2006 01:03 PM

="Edgy DC"]I'm not sure we should feel our team was outflanked that somebody else moved on Brandon McCarthy. He seems like a younger, less accomplished version of Aaron Heilman. Less accomplished as far as less ML time for sure, but probably considered higher ceiling-ed as well. I doubt Heilman could net us a John Danks-type prospect for instance. Anyway, BP's Will Carroll [url=http://www.baseballprospectus.com/unfiltered/?p=118]chirps in with the latest rumors[/url]: - in the wake of the Brandon McCarthy deal I’m hearing from trusted sources that Texas is all but out on Barry Zito. They came over the top on the Mets, but weren’t able to make that stick. - Those same sources are hearing that the Mets aren’t the shoo-in we all thought, but that Seattle and San Francisco have made credible pitches as well. Zito may actually prefer the San Francisco offer, though it is shorter than the others (4 years.) - Zito’s former teammate Mark Mulder is also popular, with Arizona, Cleveland, and, yes, Texas as rumored destinations. - There are also several trades in the works, including the long-rumored Randy Johnson to Arizona deal and one three-team deal that has three BIG names. I’m going to tease you with the last one because it’s close enough that reporting it just might jinx it. Hmmmmmmm.

soupcan Dec 26 2006 09:13 PM

="Frayed Knot"]one three-team deal that has three BIG names. I’m going to tease you with the last one because it’s close enough that reporting it just might jinx it. What an asshole. Not you FK, the guy that wrote that.

Edgy DC Dec 26 2006 09:17 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Dec 26 2006 10:53 PM

Try that in another field of journalism. An arrest may be made with three BIG members of Congress going down for selling secrets to the enemy, but I'm going to tease you because I don't want to jinx it.

Frayed Knot Dec 26 2006 10:45 PM

On his next blog entry he elaborates a bit; ... While I can’t give specifics on the deal, there are still at least six teams involved in some discussions centering on Atlanta. The Braves are in full dump mode, trying to get something for Andruw Jones, trying to find Jones’ replacement on the cheap, and working more on the bullpen. Leo Mazzone isn’t there to build a bullpen out of dreck anymore. So how does this all work together? Why trade a young player like [strike]Andy[/strike] Adam LaRoche if they’re trying to control the payroll? Why deal Jones right now rather than at the deadline? The team is determined to find a solid bullpen and think they can do it with a series of deals that include LaRoche, Mike Gonzalez, Andruw Jones, and several CF candidates that I’m told include Rocco Baldelli, Curtis Granderson, and Nick Markakis. The deals appear to also have some other big names like Tim Hudson, Mark Teixeira, and Dontrelle Willis on the periphery. The three team deal that seemed close over the weekend doesn’t seem so close now as the complexity has increased. Remember that John Schuerholz is normally a slow worker, so quiet on this front doesn’t mean that nothing is happening.

Nymr83 Dec 27 2006 12:51 AM

]Try that in another field of journalism. I've said this before in other threads, sports writers get away with more crap than any other journalists. ]The Braves are in full dump mode, trying to get something for Andruw Jones, i don't see a contender with a young centerfuelder to give back that isn't already set in center for years to come, willing to take on the contract ad resign him for at least beltran money, and willing to give the braves a young CFer and more.

MFS62 Dec 27 2006 09:18 AM

An article in today's Daily News opines that the Yanks are trying to trade Randy Johnson to free up some money to go after Zito. Yesterday I heard that the Yanks and Red Sox were the only MLB teams to pay any luxury tax last year, and the Sox "only" paid $500,000. (The Yanks paid millions, but I don't remember the exact amount). Later

Frayed Knot Dec 27 2006 12:12 PM

Today's [url=http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/sports/baseball/16327079.htm]Fort Worth Star-Telegram[/url] is reporting that the Rangers have given Zito a weekend deadline to accept their offer. "We've made a very strong offer. If we don't have agreement with his agent by this weekend, we will pursue other alternatives." Rangers general manager Jon Daniels also confirmed that deadline, writing, "That's accurate. End of the week."

Edgy DC Dec 27 2006 01:22 PM

Nymr83 wrote: ]The Braves are in full dump mode, trying to get something for Andruw Jones, i don't see a contender with a young centerfuelder to give back that isn't already set in center for years to come, willing to take on the contract ad resign him for at least beltran money, and willing to give the braves a young CFer and more. Thus the three-way nature of the deal.

Nymr83 Dec 27 2006 03:41 PM

if you're the braves, what young centerfielder in the game today would you take back as the major (but not only) part of an andruw jones package? i'm having a hardtime finding a guy. Wily Mo Pena and a decent pitcher maybe? I'm sure they'd take Grady Sizemore, but the Indians probably wouldn't even do that straight up. Curtis Granderson, along with a second player of at least the same caliber? Rocco Baldelli? though what the Rays would want out of it in a 3-way i'm not sure

Edgy DC Dec 27 2006 03:48 PM

I don't know. Can Matt Holiday or Alex Rios play center? Assuming somebody else of value is coming along, it may be somebody not yet established like Lastings Milledge. Somebody like Milledge, not Milledge, though.

metsmarathon Dec 27 2006 03:54 PM

since you mention it... could a andruw jones / lastings milledge / dontrelle willis trade be feasible, or is that just crazy talk?

Yancy Street Gang Dec 27 2006 03:55 PM

It could only work if the Mets contributed more than Lastings Milledge, or if they got back someone other than Jones or Willis.

Edgy DC Dec 27 2006 04:00 PM

metsmarathon wrote: since you mention it... could a andruw jones / lastings milledge / dontrelle willis trade be feasible, or is that just crazy talk? I see a fourth team needed and another prospect or two in the mix from the Mets.

cleonjones11 Dec 28 2006 12:07 AM

Ze-to will be A MFY so lets look elsewhere

metsmarathon Dec 28 2006 12:12 AM

well, that's it i guess. time to look elsewhere. cleon sez so.

Edgy DC Dec 28 2006 12:22 AM

On November 23, cleonjones11 wrote: Zito will do well in the National League...He will be a Met...

Edgy DC Dec 28 2006 01:00 AM

And the Yankees close with Igawa 24 hours before the deadline. Five years, $20 million. I don't know why he (and Matsuzaka) don't just tell MLB to stick it. What a rip. He's not even getting Roger Cedeño money.

OlerudOwned Dec 28 2006 11:57 AM

Son of a fuck... http://newyork.mets.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20061228&content_id=1768001&vkey=hotstove2006&fext=.jsp ]The Rangers have been told that Barry Zito is signing elsewhere. One source said that the Rangers expect Zito to sign with the San Francisco Giants. The Rangers offered Zito a six-year, $84 million contract. They also added a vesting option for $15 million for a seventh year with a $4 million buyout. The option would have kicked in if Zito pitched 200 innings in the sixth year of the contract. But apparently it wasn't enough to lure Zito to Texas. ... Zito -- who resides in San Francisco -- has pitched for the Oakland Athletics his entire career and apparently has chosen to remain on the West Coast. The Mets, Mariners, Angels and the Yankees were all interested in Zito. Chrissakes, I hope "source" is wrong.

Centerfield Dec 28 2006 12:03 PM

Well, there are two statements there. One is that a source told the Rangers that Zito is signing elsewhere. That's fine. The other is that the Rangers believe he will sign with the Giants. That's fine too...we assume the Rangers have no inside knowledge of Zito's intent. Plus, it benefits Zito to circulate he'd sign with the Giants in order to get his price up. Not worried yet.

Edgy DC Dec 28 2006 12:12 PM

Six years at $14 million per is a lot to walk away from. The possibility of a seventh is... by golly. I may be kinda OK if he gets that much and more from a team not named the Mets. As usual, it's not the money but the years.

Edgy DC Dec 28 2006 12:16 PM

Current odds for the first opening day starter at CitiField Pedro Martinez: 9-2. Barry Zito: 7-1 Tom Glavine: 19-2. Mike Pelfrey: 11-1 Phil Humber 15-1 Dontrelle Willis: 15-1 John Maine: 20-1 Oliver Perez: 30-1 Mark Mulder: 33-1 Bobby Parnell: 35-1 Aaron Heilman: 40-1 Roy Halliday: 50-1

Edgy DC Dec 28 2006 12:32 PM

New odds! Pedro Martinez: 9-2. Mike Pelfrey: 10-1 Dontrelle Willis: 10-1 Phil Humber 12-1 Tom Glavine: 19-1 John Maine: 20-1 Mark Mulder: 22-1 Deolis Guerra: 25-1 Oliver Perez: 28-1 Kevin Mulvey: 30-1 Bobby Parnell: 30-1 Roy Oswalt: 30-1 Jonathan Niese: 35-1 Aaron Heilman: 36-1 Roy Halliday: 40-1 Barry Zito: 60-1

Centerfield Dec 28 2006 12:56 PM

Ok. Now I believe him.

Yancy Street Gang Dec 28 2006 01:32 PM

Edgy DC wrote: New odds! Pedro Martinez: 9-2. Mike Pelfrey: 10-1 Dontrelle Willis: 10-1 Phil Humber 12-1 Tom Glavine: 19-1 John Maine: 20-1 Mark Mulder: 22-1 Deolis Guerra: 25-1 Oliver Perez: 28-1 Kevin Mulvey: 30-1 Bobby Parnell: 30-1 Roy Oswalt: 30-1 Jonathan Niese: 35-1 Aaron Heilman: 36-1 Roy Halliday: 40-1 Barry Zito: 60-1 You're giving good odds for Pedro Martinez signing a second contract with the Mets. Given his iffy health, and the fact that his current contract expires in 2008 I'd give Pedro steeper odds on being that starter. I'll put my money on Pelfrey or Humber, but I hope it's Dontrelle.

cleonjones11 Dec 29 2006 01:04 AM

Jose Lima even money

Edgy DC Dec 29 2006 07:51 AM

I'll take that one. How much?

Nymr83 Dec 29 2006 11:05 AM

can i get sone action against Lima too?

metsmarathon Dec 29 2006 11:10 AM

ditto.

Edgy DC Dec 29 2006 01:21 PM

Reports all over the country are about how Scott Boras (1) took the owners for a ride again, (2) like he always does, (3) with phantom counter-offers. 1) He only took one for a ride. 2) It's not like he got Matsuzaka his full payday. 3) We really don't know what the Mets were offering.

Edgy DC Dec 29 2006 01:22 PM

To be fair, as I review these columns, a lot of them are pickups of a single AP column.

Nymr83 Dec 29 2006 04:26 PM

Well I think Matsuzaka ended up with as much as you could expect for a guy who could only talk to one team. He definetaly took the Giants for a ride on Zito, I hadn't even heard talk of 7 years until the deal was anounced.

Edgy DC Dec 29 2006 04:49 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Dec 29 2006 10:47 PM

Sure, but my point was that teams can out-leverage players also, even those represented by Scott Boras. Who is Gil Meche's agent, anyway? Answer: Casey Close.

Nymr83 Dec 29 2006 06:47 PM

I didn't know who Meche's agent was, but if i'm a mediocre pitcher i want him to be mine. Boras seems to get good players more than they deserve... but getting 55 million for a Gil Meche is miraculous.

Edgy DC Dec 30 2006 09:16 AM

My feeling is just that Boras isn't really the story here. I'm sure he does well by his clients, but it's hard to believe salaries wouldn't be similarly escalating if he wasn't involved. He wasn't Meche's agent. Nor was he Gary Matthews, Jr.'s. Yet they both got paydays that are perhaps more out of whack than Zito's and they got them before Zito got his.

Nymr83 Dec 30 2006 01:19 PM

I wasn't saying Boras was the story here, Meche's deal has me rolling my eyes alot more than anything else. Giving Zito extra years may prove to be a foolish decision (i think it will) but at least you're getting the pitcher you needed for the beginning of the contract, the Giants apparently felt it was worth risking the extra years, but what incentive is there to give all those years and all that money to Gil Meche? if Meche turned down my 2 or 3 year offer I'd tell him to look elsewhere, there were 10-15 pitchers better than him available this offseason and thats being generous to him.

Edgy DC Dec 30 2006 05:10 PM

And I'm not saying you're saying that. Only that's the angle that was taken in these worldwide reports. Many originating from the AP guy, however.

Nymr83 Jan 02 2007 11:09 PM

]Only in small groups. It's idiotic to say that a guy who won 16 games is twice the pitcher as a guy who won 8 in a particular season, but in big samples such as we're discussing here, wins become significant indicators of success No, they don't. They become indicators of longevity when looking at a career and maybe of good health when looking at a player over afew seasons, but they still don't do anything to indicate the quality of performance.

metirish Jan 30 2007 09:14 AM

Glavine on Zito - ] "I think our organization was smart in not spending the money on [Barry] Zito," Glavine said, referring to the seven-year, $126-million deal that the Giants gave Zito. "I think that we were smart in not pursuing some of the rumored trades and giving up some of the guys that we were rumored to be giving up. In the end, they did all of the right things, and we're going to go into spring training in a situation where there's going to be a lot of competition. And that's not a bad thing."

iramets Jan 30 2007 09:40 AM

You don't often hear straight party-line bullshit like that nowadays. "I think they did all the right things" is, in particuplar, a golden oldie not heard since Stalin's last five-year plan. And yeah, having a lot of competetition for open jobs isn't a bad thing, nor is having five Cy Young winners with ten-year contracts either. It's all good. If the Mets are doing it, Tommy's all for it.

Nymr83 Jan 30 2007 11:15 AM

I read that in The Post this morning, I was pretty suprised to hear that out of Glavine who is or at least was a union rep for his team.