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Now what

Centerfield Dec 28 2006 12:57 PM

Mulder? Tomo Ohka? I'm open to ideas. This winter sucks.

Yancy Street Gang Dec 28 2006 01:34 PM

Roger Clemens? No, just kidding. I don't expect that to happen. I'm thinking we may already have the entire 2007 starting rotation. This winter does suck.

Yancy Street Gang Dec 28 2006 01:37 PM

Steve Trachsel is still available.

attgig Dec 28 2006 01:46 PM

="Yancy Street Gang"]I'm thinking we may already have the entire 2007 starting rotation. This winter does suck. I have no problems with our starting rotation the way it is. Glavine Duque Maine Perez Pelfrey/Humber with Pedro coming back around All Star Break Pedro Glavine Duque 2 spots for the other 4 depending on how the 1st half of the season went. none of the offenses in our division really scares me to think we absolutely need someone better than duque to hold down the #2 spot for 1/2 a season. we'll be near top of the standings throughout the all star break, and pedro coming back healthy will bring us over the top.

Yancy Street Gang Dec 28 2006 01:49 PM

I have no reason to think that 2007 will go as smoothly as 2006. (That's the lesson of 1987.) I think that rotation is way too unstable, everyone is either too old or too young. There's so much that can go wrong. Anyway, here, according to ESPN, are the remaining free agent starting pitchers: Aaron Sele, SP 36 Free Agent LA Dodgers Brian Moehler, SP 34 Free Agent Florida Bruce Chen, SP 29 Free Agent Baltimore Chan Ho Park, SP 33 Free Agent (San Diego David Wells, SP 43 Free Agent (San Diego Jamey Wright, SP 32 Free Agent San Francisco Jason Johnson, SP 33 Free Agent Cincinnati Jeff Weaver, SP 30 Free Agent (St. Louis Jerome Williams, SP 25 Non-TenderedOakland Joel Pineiro, SP 28 Non-TenderedSeattle John Thomson, SP 33 Free Agent Atlanta Mark Mulder, SP 29 Free Agent (St. Louis Mark Redman, SP 32 Free Agent Kansas City Ramon Ortiz, SP 33 Free Agent (Washington Rick Helling, SP 36 Free Agent (Milwaukee Roger Clemens, SP 44 Free Agent (Houston Russ Ortiz, SP 32 Free Agent Baltimore Shawn Estes, SP 33 Free Agent San Diego Steve Trachsel, SP 36 Free Agent NY Mets Tomo Ohka, SP 30 Free Agent (Milwaukee Tony Armas, SP 28 Free Agent Washington Victor Zambrano, SP 31 Non-TenderedNY Mets

smg58 Dec 28 2006 01:50 PM

I'm not absolutely for standing pat, but attgig makes a good point, and I'd prefer standing pat to a panic deal. This rotation, with Trachsel instead of El Duque, got us to within an inning of the World Series. We're still well ahead of the rest of the division.

metsmarathon Dec 28 2006 01:56 PM

toss a year lightly at jeff weaver, perhaps?

Yancy Street Gang Dec 28 2006 02:01 PM

They should talk to Mulder. He's only 29; maybe he has something left. If I remember correctly, though, he's not expected to be ready to pitch in April. The Mets already have a guy like that in Pedro. Ohka is 30. Armas is 28. It's too bad Suppan is no longer available. Why was he in such a hurry to sign with Milwaukee? A pox on him and his stem cells!

attgig Dec 28 2006 02:15 PM

Yancy Street Gang wrote: I have no reason to think that 2007 will go as smoothly as 2006. (That's the lesson of 1987.) I think that rotation is way too unstable, everyone is either too old or too young. There's so much that can go wrong. Anyway, here, according to ESPN, are the remaining free agent starting pitchers: that list gives me so little desire to go after anyone else as a replacement for our 5 man. I would take a look at jerome williams for a minor league contract - he was supposed to be the next doc at some point of his minor league career. Mulder - looking at his recent track record, wouldn't be high on my list unless it was an incentive-laden deal. others just aren't really worth looking at imo.

OlerudOwned Dec 28 2006 02:23 PM

Persue Dan Haren, maybe.

Rotblatt Dec 28 2006 04:47 PM

Huh. FA pool looks better than I thought--there may be some bargains to be had. Pineiro used to be good, and he's only 28. A reclamation project for Mr. Peterson? If looks crappy as a starter in the spring, we could move him to the pen, where he was decent last year (4.81 ERA v. 6.62 as a starter, with nearly a K/IP). Ohka & Armas could be league average or better if healthy. If either have any options left, they'd give us some real flexibility. Weaver's still got decent stuff, although he gives up a hell of a lot of dingers. Mulder looks like a pretty good gamble for an incentive-laden contract. I don't think any one of them is the answer, but these guys could certainly help us build some redundancy.

MFS62 Dec 28 2006 07:04 PM

Random thoughts about some of the other names on that list. John Thompson - maybe united with Peterson he can be ok. He might be a steal if obtained at a reasonable price. Mark Redman - the poster boy for why it may not be a good idea to have every team represented on the All Star team. Has Bruce Chen played for one team more than once in his travels? (I was only joking. Sorry if I ruined anyone's dinner by mentioning his name.) If rabid SF fan Cris Russo says Ortiz is terrible, he must be. Don't know where it is, but a few weeks ago, I mentioned the possibility of Traschell and Zambrano returning to the Mets staff in 2007. I hope I'm wrong on both counts. Later

iramets Dec 28 2006 07:31 PM

="attgig"] ="Yancy Street Gang"]I'm thinking we may already have the entire 2007 starting rotation. This winter does suck. I have no problems with our starting rotation the way it is. Glavine Duque Maine Perez Pelfrey/Humber with Pedro coming back around All Star Break Pedro Glavine Duque 2 spots for the other 4 depending on how the 1st half of the season went. none of the offenses in our division really scares me to think we absolutely need someone better than duque to hold down the #2 spot for 1/2 a season. we'll be near top of the standings throughout the all star break, and pedro coming back healthy will bring us over the top. Dare I suggest we maybe can get another young arm for the rotation by trading Burgos for [url=http://cybermessageboard.ehost.com/getalife/viewtopic.php?t=5295&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=20]Brian Bannister[/url]? Scrambling around for starting pitching shortly after dumping some for a long-shot with an ERA like the defense budget maybe suggests a headless chicken running amok? Maybe it's just me. We will get another starter between now and April 1, no doubt. That he will be a nickel cheaper or a tiny bit better than Bannister remains to be seen, but he's certainly not going to be both. I vote "headless chicken."

Yancy Street Gang Dec 28 2006 07:48 PM

To be fair, we were saying the same things about Seo and Benson last year.

Nymr83 Dec 28 2006 08:47 PM

and Bannister is not Seo or Benson. Bannister is also not the type of pitching we are looking for, we have a half-dozen guys better than him. If we get anyone at all it needs to be a potential top of the rotation guy, Mulder fits the bill if he straightens himself out, a few of those other guys (Weaver, Piniero, Redman for me) are interesting but I'd cringe at giving them more than 1 year plus an option.

Centerfield Dec 28 2006 09:52 PM

I think at this point you have to over-pay for Mulder a bit. Let the kids try out until Mulder is ready, hope that some of them pan out. If not, hope that they can stay in it until Mulder or Pedro come back. And hope that at least one of the two return to form. And if that doesn't work, hope for a deadline deal.

iramets Dec 28 2006 10:18 PM

Nymr83 wrote: we have a half-dozen guys better than him. 1. 2. 3 4. 5. 6. Go. You have a creaky rotation, it gets creakier and has already lost parts and been depleted by injury, so your solution is: to add no one, and to trade off one of your more effective young starters? If we had a half-dozen better starters than Brian Bannister, we wouldn't be having this discussion at all, would we? No, I'm afraid Omar swapped BB feeling cocky he'd be able to sign some #1 guy and maybe more than that. So far, he's failed and the loss of Bannister now seems a bigger mistake to me than it did a month ago, and that's saying something.

Nymr83 Dec 28 2006 10:38 PM

Glavine, Maine, Perez, Pelfrey, Heilman, Humber are all guys I'd rather pencil in to my rotation than Bannister. At gunpoint i might rather have el-duque as well.

iramets Dec 28 2006 10:52 PM

Heilman? Who's your 8th inning guy, then? The fabulous Mr. Whoever? Humber? Pelfrey? Look, I'll go along with you, but people mainly told me Bannister was expendable because he had so little MLB experience. But next to these guys he looks like Nolan Ryan. The only way I'd rationalize going with a rotation like you suggest would be to have some real depth behind it. As far as I'm concerned, I'd want Pelfrey and Humber in AAA and call them up when (not if) some geezer pulls up lame. If they're in your rotation from day One, who are you calling up?

Johnny Dickshot Dec 28 2006 10:52 PM

]If we had a half-dozen better starters than Brian Bannister, we wouldn't be having this discussion at all, would we? Seems to me we do and we are. To be sure let's proceed to the argument of Bannister's superiority over any or all of the remaining candidates. Fill in the blanks in the following sentence: Bannister is better than (a-h) because _____________ . a) Glavine b) Hernandez c) Perez d) Maine e) Pelfrey f) Humber g) Heilman h) Williams

iramets Dec 28 2006 10:57 PM

You know, you're right. Eight starters plus Pedro. We should trade some more of them off. What the hell did we want Zito for anyway? Now what? No prob. We're all set. BRING IT AWN!!

Johnny Dickshot Dec 28 2006 11:02 PM

Yeah, I can't do it either.

Johnny Dickshot Dec 28 2006 11:28 PM

I guess my concern at this point is that I'd have preferred to part with young pitchers who wouldn't make the rotation for the upgrades we might need at 2B or the outfield or catching... now we may also have to make a stressful trade for a pitcher, at least down the road a ways. I suppose till them I'm game for a death-struggle at spring training.

Frayed Knot Dec 28 2006 11:31 PM

Bannister's walk-on status in college, followed by his 7th round draft pick potential and his 6 ML starts complete with a negative K/BB ratio coupled w/a 1.47 WHiP certainly has earned him a share of admirers among a certain segment of Met fans. Or maybe it was the limp home. By all accounts he's a smart guy and a great kid who'll likely get the most out of his talent. But I've never heard him described as having anything other than just average stuff and, while hardly ancient, will already be 26 before the season starts.

metsmarathon Dec 28 2006 11:32 PM

ooh, death-struggle! cue the vulcan music from star trek!

smg58 Dec 28 2006 11:43 PM

You have to start by making a realistic assessment of where Pelfrey and Humber are right now (it's pretty clear that they had already passed Bannister on the depth chart in the eyes of the Mets), and then decide if there's somebody in the FA pool who'd be an upgrade in 07 that would not require a multi-year committment. I'm not sure if there's a match, given the current market (which, as of this morning, is even more inflated than I previously thought), but there's no good reason not to look for one. As for deals, you have to be careful. I see no point in trading Milledge for less talent in return, and dealing Humber or Pelfrey for a pitcher you'd need to re-sign next offseason could do the rotation more harm than good in the long run. I'd like a better-than-average pitcher if one is available at a reasonable price, but there might not be any.

Johnny Dickshot Dec 29 2006 12:37 AM

One other seeming wildcard when it comes to weighing youngsters vs. experienced guys is how hard you can afford to push them if you do keep them around. Worrywart statheads can produce plenty of data illustrating the seeming danger of dramatic increases in workload from one season to the next with young pitchers, because MLB seasons are longer than minor or college years.I think the CW today is to gradually increase the IPs season to season, and that expecting 200 innings out of a rookie whose thrown maybe 130 max in the minors is asking for an arm surgery. So they say. (Gary Gentry?)

Gwreck Dec 29 2006 12:49 AM

I could stand taking a flier on Joel Piniero. My prediction is that a mid-season deal is more likely. Given that we did just fine this summer with the pieced-together rotation, we might be able to win some games and worry about major acquisitions around July. I hope the bullpen is up to the task.

cleonjones11 Dec 29 2006 12:58 AM

Another year of creaky pitcher du jour.. Oliver Perez? cmon 5 quality starts? Thanks Omar zero pitching

Edgy DC Dec 29 2006 11:21 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Dec 29 2006 11:25 AM

Zero? The Mets had the sixth best ERA in the big leagues last year. The bullpen had the second best. Yeah, Glavine and Hernandez are old and Martinez is hard to bank on for anything this year, but there are likely as many pitchers due for a sunrise as a sunset, aren't there?

Yancy Street Gang Dec 29 2006 11:23 AM

Cleon's a bit of a drama queen.

martin Dec 29 2006 03:06 PM

i not worried, one of these young pitchers is going to mature and things are gonna be fine. pelfrey and humber are college guys, they are ready. it isnt just other teams that have verlanders and papelbons. these were high draft picks, expected to make it in the majors. now is their chance. and even if they don't i think there is a good chance peterson has turned oliver perez around. we know he can pitch in the big leagues. i still think the mets will be in the top quarter ERA wise.

iramets Dec 29 2006 04:54 PM

You've got to figure they've got about 16 million lying around in this year's budget that the expected to be spending. What are they going to do with it now? Bigger holiday bonuses for the secretarial pool?

Yancy Street Gang Dec 29 2006 05:17 PM

Maybe they'll make a deal where they receive some other team's salary dump. I just hope it's not Randy Johnson.

KC Dec 29 2006 05:40 PM

FK: >>>Or maybe it was the limp home.<<< I haven't lol'd in awhile here ... this made me lol.

cleonjones11 Dec 30 2006 07:20 PM

I keep having this nightmare where Dave Williams is our 2...

Yancy Street Gang Dec 30 2006 09:02 PM

From an AP article about Vladimir Guerrero: ]...New York Mets pitcher Pedro Martinez is also recovering well from rotator cuff surgery, but the ace right-hander still doesn't plan to return to the mound until July or August. "The progress has been excellent," said Martinez, who joined Guerrero in the softball game. "The problem has to do with the calcification of the bone that was broken with the tear and that had to be operated on. "You have to let it run its course, so we're aiming for July or August as the return date." Martinez, 35, missed the end of last season -- including the Mets' playoff run -- due to injuries to his leg and arm. Since having surgery, the three-time Cy Young Award winner says the mobility in his throwing arm has already improved. "I don't have problems anymore with my reach or flexibility, and so far everything is going very well," he said. As part of his offseason regimen, Martinez said he is bulking up. "I've put on about 10 pounds of muscle, because that's one of our strategies," he said. The pitcher praised the Mets' moves during the offseason. They added left fielder Moises Alou but were outbid by the San Francisco Giants in their attempt to sign left-handed starter Barry Zito. "It would have been good to have Zito on the team, but it wasn't possible," Martinez said.

metsguyinmichigan Dec 30 2006 10:34 PM

Edgy, I love the song in your sig, "Starry Eyes" by the Records. I had the 45 when I was a kid, and last year, after great searching, finally found it on a compilation CD. Good stuff!

Edgy DC Dec 30 2006 10:51 PM

I had no such treasure like your 45, but the song has been on heavy rotation in my brain recently.

Edgy DC Jan 03 2007 09:30 AM

Several papers this morning report that the Tomo Ohka's agent has listed the Mets among teams inquiring after his player. Ohka is a solid starter --- as good as or better than Kris Benson when healthy --- but (a) missed a good chunk of last season with a partial rotator cuff tear, and (b) punched his ticket out of DC by spatting with Frank Robinson. The Mets are currently without a Japanese player, and I think they haven't had a season without one since 1996. Ohka's blabbermouth agent has the unlikely name of Jim Masteralexis. Meet Jim Masteralexis and his partners in DiaMMond Management Group.

Johnny Dickshot Jan 03 2007 11:18 AM

Ohka never had his injury repaired, only rehabbed ... He's like Pedro Astacio in that regard.

cleonjones11 Jan 05 2007 01:33 AM

The die is cast for 2007..So be it. Amazing Milledge has turned from prospect to suspect..Can't even get a 4 Blanton for him. The Ohkas.Armas etc.. are just garbage in garbage out...I dont see a big trade coming. Heck with Newhan yee haa..Milledge goes AAA Omar is not perfect..he just dropped the ball this winter..

Rockin' Doc Jan 05 2007 07:15 AM

I am, by nature, an optimist. I prefer to view the glass as half full, while others will see the glass as half empty. In most instances, it seems that someone stole cleon's glass. The Mets are in for a legitimate fight this season. The line up should be fine, barring significant injuries. The bullpen should once again be very good as long as Sanchez and Padilla can successfully return from their injuries. Unfortunately, the bullpen will need to be stellar to help compensate for a rotation that lacks a true number one. The starting pitching consists of either elder statesman past their prime or a collection of young, unproven pitchers that have a great deal of potential, but no proven pedegree at the major league level. I still hope to see the Mets add an established starter to the roster, but the trade cost will likely be quite high for anyone of proven value. I think it's unrealistic to expect another cake walk to the playoffs, as we witnessed last season. I do expect the Mets to be in the thick of the pennant race all of 2007.

smg58 Jan 05 2007 08:12 AM

I was under the impression that Minaya turned down Milledge for Blanton, not Beane. At least that is what I hope. Barring a trade, I'd give Milledge a fair chance of wrestling the RF spot away from Shawn Green. Everything has been really expensive this winter, and if this proves to be a peak in the market then Minaya will wind up looking smart. We're still prohibitive favorites in our division. The Phillies got Garcia, but replacing Wolf with Eaton is a downgrade and they haven't addressed right field. The Marlins are a good centerfielder and a bullpen away from scaring me. The Braves have become a small market team. And the Nationals will consider 70 wins a success. We have some young guys who are likely to get better as the year goes on, and Pedro only has to be healthy by September to pitch some meaningful games for us. Sure I was hoping to upgrade somewhere, but the teaam is still in solid position for a playoff run and the future looks good.

Rotblatt Jan 05 2007 11:02 AM

I agree that we're in pretty good position for the playoffs. Ideally, our boys will hold down the fort while Milledge tears up AAA, allowing us to use him as the centerpiece for a trade of a #1 ace who's about to make big money in arbitration (Willis, I'm looking at you). IMO, though, we've got too many question marks to be considered a complete, well-balanced team, but who doesn't? We should be good enough for the division, and with a little luck and a few savy deadline trades, we might go far in the playoffs.

Edgy DC Jan 05 2007 11:14 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jan 05 2007 11:59 AM

Ideally, the pitchers we have prosper and Milledge blossoms as a Met.

seawolf17 Jan 05 2007 11:31 AM

No, ideally, we stop responding to cleon's paranoia. And the pitchers we have prosper and Milledge blossoms as a Met.

Vic Sage Jan 05 2007 01:55 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jan 05 2007 03:37 PM

while i agree that mr.jones is a bit of a whiner, the reality is this... we had 4 holes going in to the off-season. 1) Problem: We had an old, broken down LFer that needed to be replaced - Omar's solution: hire an older broken down LFer to replace him. 2) Problem: we got lucky at 2b. Valentin repeating at his age is a longshot, and he'd probably be more valuable on the bench. - Omar's solution: re-sign Valentin as our starting 2bman. 3) We have an expensive over-the-hill RFer, and none of our young OFers (including milledge and Johnson) have shown themselves ready to step up and fill that slot. - Omar's solution: do nothing. 4) Our starting pitching does not have single top flight starter in the prime of his career; the rotation is comprised of the old (Glavine, El Duque), the young (Maine, Perez, Pelfrey, Humber), the mediocre (Williams) and the wounded (Pedro). - Omar's solution: do nothing. While i agree the Mets are certainly in position to compete again this year, as currently constituted, i think everyone of the question marks we had coming into the off-season still remain. Which doesn't indicate a particularly good job so far by our GM.

Yancy Street Gang Jan 05 2007 01:58 PM

I agree with Vic. Omar's had a dud of a winter.

Willets Point Jan 05 2007 02:06 PM

Thanks Vic, it's nice to see someone talking sense.

cleonjones11 Jan 05 2007 03:18 PM

How about Johan Santana when he's up. You must all like that one... The Mets will win the East by accident and I hope Milledge blooms..I just dont want to see him in handcuffs...

Rotblatt Jan 05 2007 04:15 PM

]We needed 2 better starters than Floyd and Green. Alou and Ben Johnson don't fill that bill. Well, a healthy Alou's hands-down better than healthy Floyd or Green. The dude had a .923 OPS last year, compared to .731 for Floyd & .77? for Green. Even if he doesn't manage more than another 350 AB, he'll still likely be an upgrade over 2006 Cliff. I don't have a handle on Ben Johnson yet, but based on his stats, I agree that he looks more like a competent fourth outfielder than a replacement for Green or Alou. Still, I do think we'll get more production out of the corner outfield this season than we did last season. I agree with your other points, though, Vic. Omar hasn't had a good offseason. Although he also hasn't made any foolish mistakes.

ABG Jan 05 2007 04:15 PM

cleonjones11 wrote: How about Johan Santana when he's up. You must all like that one... The Mets will win the East by accident and I hope Milledge blooms..I just dont want to see him in handcuffs... I would welcome the idea of Johan Santana in the Mets rotation.

Rotblatt Jan 05 2007 04:17 PM

]I would welcome the idea of Johan Santana in the Mets rotation. I would give one of each appendege to have Johan Santana in the Mets rotation.

ABG Jan 05 2007 05:10 PM

Rotblatt wrote: ]I would welcome the idea of Johan Santana in the Mets rotation. I would give one of each appendege to have Johan Santana in the Mets rotation. I just have to... I wonder if Milledge, Humber, Heilman and Pelfrey peels him away now.

KC Jan 05 2007 05:21 PM

Stop. Don't. Pelfrey is on the cover of BA this week in the NL East top 10 prospects edition. We ain't packaging him for nothing with nobody or I'll soil myself.

ABG Jan 05 2007 05:30 PM

KC wrote: Stop. Don't. Pelfrey is on the cover of BA this week in the NL East top 10 prospects edition. We ain't packaging him for nothing with nobody or I'll soil myself. Santana is on the cover of "The Best Pitcher in Baseball" Magazine with the caption "The best pitcher in baseball"

KC Jan 05 2007 06:03 PM

Yeah, I've heard of him. He's on my four of my fantasy teams. Sheesh.

Gwreck Jan 05 2007 06:55 PM

Vic Sage wrote: 1) Problem: We had an old, broken down LFer that needed to be replaced- Omar's solution: hire an older broken down LFer to replace him. This analysis is flawed. Alou might be older but he's in far better shape than Floyd and I'd suggest likely to give the Mets more than Floyd did in '06. Not to mention he signed him for a one-year deal, at a reasonable price. ]4) Our starting pitching does not have single top flight starter in the prime of his career; the rotation is comprised of the old (Glavine, El Duque), the young (Maine, Perez, Pelfrey, Humber), the mediocre (Williams) and the wounded (Pedro). - Omar's solution: do nothing. Stating that Omar "did nothing" is flawed -- what you mean is that he didn't acquire a "top flight starter in the prime of his career. I'm curious, however - which "top flight starter in the prime of his career" should the Mets acquire? I'm sure they could have outbid San Francisco for Zito if they wanted to -- and that would've been terribly unwise. I'll agree that I don't think Omar had a great winter. I don't think our bench and bullpen is better than last year, either. I do think you're not giving Omar a fair shake in this analysis. I think his options were too limited for starting pitching and prime outfielders. I also think that given the Mets offensive stars, having Green and Valentin at 7th and 8th might not be ideal but is hardly disaster-waiting-to-happen.

Nymr83 Jan 05 2007 07:09 PM

I don't think there is any reason to go into panic-mode about the 2007 New York Mets. Omar didn't have a good offseason but I don't think he had a bad one either.

KC Jan 05 2007 07:53 PM

For the record, I thought Santana was only signed through 2007 not 2008. I still think trading everyone for him is a) a pipe dream, b) silly, c) rotowishin', and d) all of the above.

Edgy DC Jan 05 2007 08:10 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jan 17 2007 09:17 AM

We can wish all we want, but there's six or seven of these bona-fide aceTM characters floating around. (Check your NL Cy Young ballot.) It's a sellers' market and the price is steep. The Mets had a chance to grow one in Scott Kazmir and few of us were pleased that they passed. If they want to tend the orchard right around now, I'm cool with that. And if they want to add some bona-fide mediocritiesTM to fill space while they sort out which young pitchers are ready, and to be utterly releaseable if they aren't needed, I'm OK with that also. Re-sign Bruce Chen and let him pitch his little heart out.

patona314 Jan 05 2007 10:26 PM

bona-fide mediocritiesTM what's w/the trademark?

Edgy DC Jan 05 2007 11:03 PM

If I've got to explain, my murky point is lost. Lost. And murky.

patona314 Jan 05 2007 11:06 PM

Edgy DC wrote: If I've got to explain, my murky point is lost. Lost. And murky. remember, i'm a noob. i'm about 3000 posts behind all of you boneheads

Gwreck Jan 05 2007 11:07 PM

If the Mets want that bona-fide ace (TM), Carlos Zambrano of the Cubs is a free agent after 2008. Of course, if Zito is 126/7, you'd think Zambrano would be 150/6 or 7.

Edgy DC Jan 05 2007 11:24 PM

I simply mean that terms like Ace and Bona Fide #1 are nebulous, but easy enough to throw around as if they're just filling the store.

patona314 Jan 05 2007 11:26 PM

got it tigertm

Edgy DC Jan 05 2007 11:30 PM

Stop it. They'll know.

Vic Sage Jan 06 2007 02:23 PM

i'm not panicking. I'm not saying Omar has been terrible, or that we're doomed. I didn't demand an ace or a "bone fide" #1. I made what i think are totally valid points about what the Mets needs were going into the off-season, and what Omar has or has not done to address them. I don't think he's addressed our needs, therefore he's not had a particularly good off-season. RES IPSA LOQUITOR Most strong teams have at least one veteran pitcher (age 27-32 range -- ie, "in their prime"), who is at least a reliably above average pitcher you can pencil in for 200+ better-than-average innings. We don't. In LF, Alou's is likely to give us no more than 350 ABs. I'm not going to argue whether his 350 ABs are likely to be signficantly better than 350 ABs from FLoyd this season (its a debatable point, but lets assume he will)... ony that, at his age, with his injury history, he is not going to play enough to have more than a marginal impact, and we'll require another excellent year by Endy to support him. And Endy will have to split time with Green as well, since our RFer is (at this point) punchless and defensively limited. Ben Johnson doesn't impress me as much of a move to improve this area, either. And we're again counting on an old Valentin to play a full season at 2b, with no alternatives available if he fails. Damien Easley? Newhan? oy. As i said, i think we can still be competitive, but it would be nice if a move could've been made (or could still be made) to actually IMPROVE the team. As of yet, Omar hasn't done it. He hasn't screwed up either, but that's damning him with the faintest of praise. I don't think this is a controversial point.

Edgy DC Jan 06 2007 02:46 PM

Isn't this a ptiching thread?

Frayed Knot Jan 06 2007 03:01 PM

]RES IPSA LOQUITOR I think this was one of our recently registered users. Came complete with a link to a Latin porn site.

cleonjones11 Jan 06 2007 03:23 PM

Can the latin Porn women pitch? Hey! Wheres Loduca!

DocTee Jan 06 2007 04:39 PM

Apparently Jeff Weaver is seeking 4 years, $40 million. This according to MLB.com's hotstove report

cleonjones11 Jan 06 2007 10:12 PM

DocTee wrote: Apparently Jeff Weaver is seeking 4 years, $40 million. This according to MLB.com's hotstove report Cmon Omar..do it!

patona314 Jan 06 2007 10:53 PM

cleonjones11 wrote: ="DocTee"]Apparently Jeff Weaver is seeking 4 years, $40 million. This according to MLB.com's hotstove report Cmon Omar..do it! for the love god cleon where did that come from. he was released by the angels last year and won the lottery by being picked up by the dreaded cardinals. he sucks. weaver should pay the mets for the opportunity to play for a contender. besides, that growth on his face is disgusting. for christ's sake jeff. see a doctor.

cleonjones11 Jan 07 2007 12:57 AM

I think hes enough of an oddball to be an effective Met..I still love his sinker. That Hackettstown to Millburn Midtown direct must be gettin to ya

patona314 Jan 07 2007 02:02 AM

cleonjones11 wrote: I think hes enough of an oddball to be an effective Met..I still love his sinker. That Hackettstown to Millburn Midtown direct must be gettin to ya 1. only one train leaves for manhattan out of hackettstown a day. 2. the "midtown direct" has been out of my life for 7 years. 3. jeff weaver still sucks.

Nymr83 Jan 07 2007 02:03 AM

i'll take Weaver but not a 4 year commitment.

Edgy DC Jan 11 2007 11:17 AM

Mulder returns to St. Louis for two years, $13 million. Not too crazy to think that the Mets might have done better to blow the Schoeneweis money on Mulder, and if and when Mulder lost his rotation spot, develop him into a releiver.

smg58 Jan 11 2007 02:48 PM

The problem with Mulder is that he won't be ready for Opening Day. Between Pedro's injury, and Pelfrey and Humber likely becoming more major league ready as the season goes on, I don't really think the Mets need to add another pitcher they'd have to wait for. If I spend the money at all at this point, I'd rather it be on somebody we could send out there right away.

Edgy DC Jan 11 2007 02:56 PM

Good point. I had forgotten that. Add Guillermo Mota and (maybe) Duanere Sanchez to the list of pitchers who won't be off with the opening gun.

Edgy DC Jan 17 2007 09:25 AM

The Favorites: Glavine O. Hernandez Maine Perez Sosa The Hopefuls: Williams Pelfrey Soler Humber Heilman A Cascade of Need Away: Vargas McLane McGinley Collazo Standridge A Few Months and Series of Emergencies Away: Pinango Parnell Smith

metirish Jan 17 2007 09:35 AM

I would hope Pelfrey would be a favorite over Sosa.

Edgy DC Jan 17 2007 09:39 AM

Maybe by the end of spring. Maybe not. Guys with options have to knock out guys without. Sosa and Williams exist precisely to hold down jobs until Humber and Pelfrey take them away. And to keep Maine and Perez motivated to keep theirs.

RealityChuck Jan 17 2007 10:35 AM

It'd be a big mistake in the long run (and probably in the short run) to include Pelfrey and Humber on the opening day roster. They both need more time in the minors.

metirish Jan 17 2007 10:50 AM

RealityChuck wrote: It'd be a big mistake in the long run (and probably in the short run) to include Pelfrey and Humber on the opening day roster. They both need more time in the minors. I think that's very conserative thinking,what if Pelfrey has a great spring training,does he get sent down?

iramets Jan 17 2007 11:26 AM

metirish wrote: ="RealityChuck"]It'd be a big mistake in the long run (and probably in the short run) to include Pelfrey and Humber on the opening day roster. They both need more time in the minors. I think that's very conserative thinking,what if Pelfrey has a great spring training,does he get sent down? Much as I hate to repeat myself (almost as much as you do) the answer is: If he's with the Mets, he gets sent down. If he's with some other teams, not so much. The problem is the Mets' committment based on payroll, not on performance. If the Mets have money behind someone, he's got a job. They hate to cut players they owe money to (everyone does, of course), and they tend to 1) owe big money to more players than most teams and 2) show unusually poor judgment on scouting players to owe big money to (Zambrano, Matsui, Ordonez, Leiter, Looper notable among them), so we end up looking at big-salary, low-performance players for much longer than I'm happy with. An unseen advantage in scouting well is that you can fill your roster with young talent which, if you turn out to have misjudged, the $$$$ won't keep you from cutting them, benching them, swapping them out for parts, sending them down the minors. This is basically how low-budget teams like Oakland manage to compete, and we could all take a leaf from them.

Edgy DC Jan 17 2007 11:34 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jan 17 2007 11:39 AM

Who are these big-earning roadblocks? The Mets have certainly committed more money to Pelfrey and Humber than to Maine, Perez, Sosa, or Williams.

Johnny Dickshot Jan 17 2007 11:35 AM

I think Vargas might have a better than 'cascade of need' opportunity. Not like we didn't choose him. Good body of minor league work. Good hitter even.

metirish Jan 17 2007 11:44 AM

I'm not sure that Willie has shown that he will give a spot to anyone because that player makes big money,maybe Omar thinks about that stuff but I don't think Willie does.

iramets Jan 17 2007 11:51 AM

Edgy DC wrote: Who are these big-earning roadblocks? The Mets have certainly committed more money to Pelfrey and Humber than to Maine, Perez, Sosa, or Williams. But they've already paid the money to Pelfrey and Humber. It's cheaper to send them to the minors this year, and pay more for say Maine and Perez (assuming Maine and Perez look awful in ST and Pelfrey and Humber look fabulous) because theyve committed more money to Maine and Perez in the short term. No way are Maine and Perez getting cut (not that I think it's a good idea to cut them off a bad ST). The GP is that you dont want to look at salaries when makng baseball decisions, yet the Mets look at money first, talent second. Actually, it's more like they're looking at talent poorly, historically, and overpaying for it, and making bad decisions to prop up their previous bad decisions. I will never forgive them for sticking with Matsui as long as they did, and getting nothing for him in the end anyway.

Edgy DC Jan 17 2007 12:01 PM

Never?

metirish Jan 17 2007 12:04 PM

I would like to think that the Mets stuck with Kaz because when healthy he was pretty good,he just never really got that good run.

Edgy DC Jan 17 2007 12:06 PM

Johnny Dickshot wrote: I think Vargas might have a better than 'cascade of need' opportunity. Not like we didn't choose him. Good body of minor league work. Good hitter even. Yeah, I just wanted to keep them in divisions of five. Schoeneweis belongs on that list also, maybe ahead of Heilman.

Nymr83 Jan 17 2007 12:15 PM

Heilman > Schoenweisas a starter imo, the results for Heilman were much better when he did it in the past.

metirish Jan 17 2007 12:17 PM

One of my new year resolutions for 07 is to stop thinking of Heilman as a starter....

Edgy DC Jan 17 2007 12:23 PM

Nymr83 wrote: Heilman > Schoenweisas a starter imo, the results for Heilman were much better when he did it in the past. Perhaps , but the past has also shown that Heilman's bullpen slot is a boat they don't want to rock as along as a workable alternative is there.

iramets Jan 17 2007 01:03 PM

Edgy DC wrote: Never? "Never" is a long time, isn't it? All you need to do to imagine my feelings about the whole Matsui debacle is to suppose that they'd signed him to a minimal rookie contract as a walk-on in ST of '04, and ask yourself at what point they would have sent him down to the minors, cut him etc. If your answer is between three months and a year, we're on the same page. But there are people ON THIS WEBSITE NOW who wish the Mets had kept him because they think they never gave him enough of a look, which I have real issues with. He was an inept major league player, and many middle-schoolers could see that from the beginning. I think they kept him about two seasons after they should have let him go. IMO, when it became clear that he couldn't play short, about halfway through the '04 season, anyone not signed to his contract would have been gone.

Nymr83 Jan 17 2007 01:44 PM

Edgy DC wrote: ="Nymr83"]Heilman > Schoenweisas a starter imo, the results for Heilman were much better when he did it in the past. Perhaps , but the past has also shown that Heilman's bullpen slot is a boat they don't want to rock as along as a workable alternative is there. Schoenweis' numbers as a starter suggest he is not a workable alternative.

Frayed Knot Jan 17 2007 01:53 PM

][Mets] tend to 1) owe big money to more players than most teams Well, they also have a higher payroll than most teams so there's more of a chance that they'll owe big money to some player who's fading. But more than the other teams in their gereral payroll level? ... not so sure about that. The Yanx haven't cut Pavono loose; Boston carried Foulke for 3 years following him 1 good season; etc. Stuff like that goes on all the time, fans just tend to internalize it more when it happens on their own team. ]2) show unusually poor judgment on scouting players to owe big money to (Zambrano, Matsui, Ordonez, Leiter, Looper notable among them) * Zambrano was never owed "big" money, pitched regularly (and fairly well for a stretch) in only one season, and then lost his starting job after that stretch of ineffectiveness stopped. Blame the scouting which got him here in the first place but at no point was he holding down a spot he didn't deserve nor was any decision about his pitching made due to money * Ordonez was indeed cut (actually traded for a low-priced nobody while eating virtually all the money which is effectively the same thing) while still owed big bucks (as they did with Cedeno & Bonilla) * I missed the part where they mis-judged Leiter's talent. Were there better pitchers on the staff he was holding back? * Looper was actually cheap by closer standards and was here for a short term with one pretty good season followed by one lousy one, then wasn't retained after that. * Your only real argument is with Matsui who at least had himself a history of playing at a star level coming in meaning it's only logical to give him more rope to prove himself than you would a min-wage rookie with no such track record. And they still wound up cutting him (a la Rey) while owing him money. The only real argument with him concerns the timing and an argument can at least be made that the injuries were a factor in keeping him from reching his potential.

iramets Jan 17 2007 02:17 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jan 17 2007 02:23 PM

Frayed Knot wrote: ][Mets] tend to 1) owe big money to more players than most teams Well, they also have a higher payroll than most teams so there's more of a chance that they'll owe big money to some player who's fading. But more than the other teams in their gereral payroll level? ... not so sure about that. The Yanx haven't cut Pavono loose; Boston carried Foulke for 3 years following him 1 good season; etc. Stuff like that goes on all the time, fans just tend to internalize it more when it happens on their own team. ]2) show unusually poor judgment on scouting players to owe big money to (Zambrano, Matsui, Ordonez, Leiter, Looper notable among them) * Zambrano was never owed "big" money, pitched regularly (and fairly well for a stretch) in only one season, and then lost his starting job after that stretch of ineffectiveness stopped. Blame the scouting which got him here in the first place but at no point was he holding down a spot he didn't deserve nor was any decision about his pitching made due to money * Ordonez was indeed cut (actually traded for a low-priced nobody while eating virtually all the money which is effectively the same thing) while still owed big bucks (as they did with Cedeno & Bonilla) * I missed the part where they mis-judged Leiter's talent. Were there better pitchers on the staff he was holding back? * Looper was actually cheap by closer standards and was here for a short term with one pretty good season followed by one lousy one, then wasn't retained after that. * Your only real argument is with Matsui who at least had himself a history of playing at a star level coming in meaning it's only logical to give him more rope to prove himself than you would a min-wage rookie with no such track record. And they still wound up cutting him (a la Rey) while owing him money. The only real argument with him concerns the timing and an argument can at least be made that the injuries were a factor in keeping him from reching his potential. The Yankees haven't pitched Pavano much more than he deserves, and are very down on him, trying to move him, etc. He hasn't for example made the '07 squad by any means (whereas Zambrano was clearly in the roatation when he was pitching lousy, mainly because of the investment of Met pride in their wonderful scouting of his talent and $$$$). Boston demoted Foulke from closer (and gave the job to Timlin and then Papelbon--Looper stayed the closer the whole time he was with the Mets); as you would say etc. With Ordonez and Matsui both, they kept in the lineup well after they demonstrated to me that they were not starting quality ballplayers--if they couldn't get anything at all for them after two years of sucking, it stands to reason that they should have been trying to trade them before that conclusion became evident to every GM in the biz. That's what good scouting means--that you have a sense of talent that's sharper than your opponents. The Mets were the last team in the world to see that both of them were overpaid hacks. If Matsui was worth Eli Marrero in the middle of last season, it stands to reason that he was worth at least that a year earlier, and maybe two seasons earlier. Instead they stuck with him, and some people on this website are still pining for his worthless ass. Pretty much the same deal with Ordonez. If a guy can't play, he can't play, and putting him in your starting lineup hurts no one but yourself. You should be able to tell if someone can't play, and treat him accordingly whether or not you've stupidly invested big money in him. As to Leiter, they were paying him 10 mil per year when he was barely geting through 5 IP per start, and refused to unload him for young talent. Even still, they preferred to keep him in the rotation to giving good young pitchers (do de name "Scott Kazmir" ring a bell?) a shot.

Nymr83 Jan 17 2007 02:20 PM

whatever complaints you have with Mets scouting, I don't think the team has in any any sense generally stuck with players who are ineffective because of their salaries, though there are surely one or two examples, I'd guess you could find as many or more examples on a any team (except those that dont spend in the first place.)

sharpie Jan 17 2007 02:20 PM

]Looper stayed the closer the whole time he was with the Mets I believe he was demoted during the last 5-6 weeks of the '05 season with Hernandez and Heilman getting the saves.

Edgy DC Jan 17 2007 02:36 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jan 30 2007 10:22 PM

I'm not sure when Zambrano was held in the rotation while his pitching said he should be removed. Kaz Ishii would be a better example. Zambrano got off to a crappy start in 2006, but his elbow intervened in any decision the Mets had to make. If Scott Kazmir deserved a slot in 2004, it wouldn't have come at Al Leiter's expense.

Nymr83 Jan 17 2007 02:38 PM

Neither Zambrano nor Ishii were making "big money." If they were kept in the lineup too long it was because of who the Mets gave up to get them, and that wasn't Ira's charge.

Edgy DC Jan 17 2007 02:41 PM

Well, Ishii was making $3.5 mill and pitching poorly. I'm giving the benefit of the doubt. I don't think Jason Phillips kept Kaz Ishii in the rotation, however.

Nymr83 Jan 17 2007 02:51 PM

believe me I was the one screaming loudest for his removal, but I never attributed his presense to salary. Maybe the 3.5 million AND Phillips combined to make the Mets hope he was better than their senses were telling them. I definetaly think Kazmir kept Zambrano pitching too long.

iramets Jan 17 2007 02:54 PM

sharpie wrote: ]Looper stayed the closer the whole time he was with the Mets I believe he was demoted during the last 5-6 weeks of the '05 season with Hernandez and Heilman getting the saves. You do, do you? Neat trick, considering that he saved five games the last week of August '05, and blew a save on September 7th of that year. Hernandez and Heilman first picked up September save s on Sept. 24, (a double header?)_ so maybe the Mets dropped Looper from that role when he had a week to go on his contract

Edgy DC Jan 17 2007 02:54 PM

It's Jason Phillips.

Edgy DC Jan 17 2007 04:24 PM

See, I don't see how the team could have possibly cleared the way more for their young starters to sieze spots in ther rotation. They didn't re-sign Trachsel, less than moved by the case his 15 wins make. They didn't Zambrano, despte their supposed instituional need to redeem the Kazmir trade. They didn't re-sign Lima, despite cleonjones11's position that he would be the first ever Mets starter at Citi Field. Among internal options, the only player getting more than a year was their top returning starter, who got two, at what turned out by January to be acceptable numbers. More than acceptable probably. They stayed away from overlong or overlarge commitments to aging mediocrities, and pulled out of the bidding for the top US free agent at a price where most everybody congratulated them for their prudence. The pitchers that they re-signed or brought in were for a single year at money that shouldn't make them blush too hard if a series of bad starts suggests the team should try to squeeze them through the waiver wire or release them. Among them, the only recipient of decent money is Perez, who will only be 25 next year and has as much or more in common with the young prospects than the aging mediocrities. If Pelfrey and Humber perform, they'll get a chance.

Nymr83 Jan 17 2007 07:50 PM

Edgy, like i said, i don't believe there is any institutional problem, just some isolated instances like Ishii and Zambrano.

cleonjones11 Jan 18 2007 12:04 AM

I still think Trachsel pissed somebody off beyond his trip him at the end. Probaby told the Mets he was sick of pitching for peanuts in slightly more colorful language Is Mo Vaughn scheduled back for Citifield...Bonilla too for that matter. They are still collecting on their annuities.

Edgy DC Jan 30 2007 04:32 PM

Frayed Knot wrote: * Looper was actually cheap by closer standards and was here for a short term with one pretty good season followed by one lousy one, then wasn't retained after that. I would argue that his second season wasn't so much a lousy one all season. He smashed up opening day, gradually recovered, was cruising through the middle third, and collapsed down the stretch. By the time it was clear that he wasn't coming out of his tailspin, it's not like there were a whole lot of moves to make. Yeah, Randolph could have replaced him a few weeks earlier, but there's no longterm institutional signifigance in him not. It would've been nice to see Bell or somebody get a ninth inning. They probably already were aiming at Wagner. Looper's 2005 by the month: http://www.ultimatemets.com/profile.php?PlayerCode=0721&tabno=9&vMonth=ALL&vYear=2005 . Looper's 2005 by the game.

Frayed Knot Jan 30 2007 04:56 PM

Well it certainly wasn't a good season. Closers with seasons of near 1.5 WHiP, ~4.00 ERA, and 20+% blown saves don't gain too many fans.

Edgy DC Jan 30 2007 05:06 PM

Which isn't what I said. What I'm saying is that he didn't pitch so as to argue for his removal from his job until he approached the end of his two-year tenure. Through July 23, he had a 3.05 ERA. His strikeout totals were alarmingly low, however. The only candidate making a case for himself to replace Looper was Roberto Hernandez.

patona314 Jan 30 2007 09:52 PM

Edgy DC wrote: Which isn't what I said. What I'm saying is that he didn't pitch so as to argue for his removal from his job until he approached the end of his two-year tenure. Through July 23, he had a 3.05 ERA. His strikeout totals were alarmingly low, however. The only candidate making a case for himself to replace Looper was Roberto Hernandez. uh... past history dudes. pitchers and catchers report soon. We're winners now, and get used to it (at least for a while). And if you don't stop talking about past losing players and seasons, I will talk incessantly about how Bobby Jones might be the greatest Met pitcher of all time.

patona314 Feb 02 2007 03:28 PM

Looks like Dave Williams is out until June. Just read it on Metsblog.com

metsguyinmichigan Feb 02 2007 04:01 PM

Williams out until June? I guess that's why we can't pile on Omar for stockpiling Aaron Sele types.

metirish Feb 02 2007 04:29 PM

His neck is banjaxed so he's to have surgery...

Frayed Knot Feb 02 2007 04:45 PM

]His neck is banjaxed so he's to have surgery... I just hate it when things get all banjaxed!

martin Feb 02 2007 04:48 PM

i dont think american doctors have any idea how to treat banjanxia.

Edgy DC Feb 02 2007 04:56 PM

Tell me about it. I once had to come all the way from Alabama with a banjax on my knee.

Willets Point Feb 02 2007 05:53 PM

Without seeing what was on page 6 first I figured "banjaxed" had to be some more of that charming metirish dialect.

patona314 Feb 03 2007 07:21 AM

Edgy DC wrote: Tell me about it. I once had to come all the way from Alabama with a banjax on my knee. your reaching on that one edge