Master Index of Archived Threads


Changing Baseball History

Yancy Street Gang Jan 17 2007 01:26 PM

I've been doing some spreadsheet magic recently, comparing the game log data in Retrosheet to the box score data in the UMDB. I found and fixed 13 errors (out of over 7200 games). I missed a sac hit by Endy Chavez, an IBB by Carlos Beltran, a triple by Andy Van Slyke, a home run by Bobby Abreau, an RBI by Mike Lum, and a couple of other things. But I also found a few examples of where the official stats may be wrong. Let's just focus on one, for now. The records tell us that, in 1966, Ken Boyer was caught stealing three times, and that Ed Kranepool was caught stealing once. But the box score data shows differently: Kranepool has two CS's, and Boyer also has two. It seems that Boyer was charged with a caught stealing that actually belongs to Kranepool. And here's where I think it happened: June 11, 1966, Mets. vs. the Reds at Shea. METS 8TH: Boyer reached on an error by Helms; Kranepool forced Boyer (first to shortstop); Stephenson struck out while Kranepool was caught stealing second (catcher to shortstop); 0 R, 0 H, 1 E, 0 LOB. Reds 0, Mets 4. I'm guessing that the official scorer's attention wandered, and he didn't notice that Kranepool had replaced Boyer at first, and incorrectly charged Boyer with the caught stealing. (Kranepool's other CS came the day before, on June 10.) Is it possible to get this fixed? (Not that this is vital in any way, but it might be a fun assignment.) Who would we have to contact?

Edgy DC Jan 17 2007 01:37 PM

I think it's worth pursuing. I'd write to both retrosheet and to Elias. Elias is the official statistics bureau of MLB and most other major league sports. They more or less do a good enough job, but their monopoly of the industry makes them slow to change their story when an inconsistency is found. Researchers in recent years knocked a win off of Charles Radbourne's record 60-win (now 59) season, and it took Elias years to buy it. There was also an ongoing conflict, if I remember correctly, about Hack Wilson's record-RBI season of 1930. Sidenote: Why is there no MVP for 1930?

RealityChuck Jan 17 2007 02:01 PM

Edgy DC wrote: Sidenote: Why is there no MVP for 1930? The MVP as we know it was established in 1931. The first awards (1911-14) of this nature was the Chalmers Award, given by a car company with no connection with MLB. After a few years, MLB had Chalmers discontinue the practice. The American League established their award in 1922. They also had a rule that no one could win twice, which is why Babe Ruth won in 1923 and never again. The National League saw the publicity the AL was getting from the award, so started their own in 1924. But, evidently, the publicity didn't sustain itself, so the AL and the NL discontinued it due to lack of interest. In 1931, the BBWAA started its own award, and that's been the MVP ever since. The mashing together of three sets of awards under the category "MVP" creates this confusion. Most record books in the 60s and 70s (and MLB) included only the BBWAA award.

RealityChuck Jan 17 2007 02:02 PM

BTW, Ruth wasn't ever listed on the ballot after his win.

metirish Jan 17 2007 02:16 PM

Yancy I think this is worth the effort,I'd ggive the Mets a call and ask for the stat guy(i spoke to him last year about a coach) and see what he can do,then fire off an email to Elias.

Yancy Street Gang Jan 17 2007 02:22 PM

I wrote to Retrosheet. I then went to Elias' web site, http://esb.com and it's little more than a space-holding home page. What a disappointment. But I did find this: http://www.sabr.org/sabr.cfm?a=cms,c,1833,34,0 ]What standards are applied by Elias to resolve discrepancies when new research is unveiled? I presume that you are talking about corrections to statistics from past seasons, often in the distant past. When proof is available that there is a mistake in the game-by-game records from past seasons, corrections should be made. We employ a standard of proof that lies somewhere between two of the standards common to judicial matters in this country: that is, somewhere between proof that is "clear and convincing" and proof that is "beyond a reasonable doubt." It’s not good enough to make an historical change on the basis of a he-says-she-says standard, or a 51-to-49 standard – where one newspaper source says one thing and the official sheet says another. The evidence has got to be more substantial than that for us to consider a change. Elias makes many of these historical corrections, mostly based on our own initiative, but sometimes based on material that is provided to us by other people, including some SABR members. It’s amusing when not only casual fans, but people who have spent significant portions of their lives around baseball attach a belief in the precision of early baseball statistics that is – there’s no other way to say it – almost childlike. Around the time that Rickey Henderson was challenging Ty Cobb’s all-time runs-scored record, there was some focus on someone’s claim that, by God, a mistake had been found in Cobb’s game-by-game statistics and that Cobb should be credited with one more run than Elias showed. I say it’s amusing, because we knew not only of that particular error, but of more than a dozen dealing with Cobb’s runs-scored total.

Edgy DC Jan 17 2007 02:31 PM

How patronizing.

Yancy Street Gang Jan 17 2007 02:31 PM

I took the e-mail that I would have sent to Elias and sent it to SABR. Now I'll back off this crusade and see if I get any responses. Hopefully this will lead to something. I'd like to help the ghost of Ken Boyer rest in peace. He shouldn't forever carry the burden of being charged with someone else's caught stealing. Of course, then I'll have to live in fear that Ed Kranepool will send his goons after me.

Johnny Dickshot Jan 17 2007 02:45 PM

I "discovered" a game played in 1884 that was never credited for by the stat orgs. Let them know about it, but to this point no encyclopedias have been destroyed.

Edgy DC Jan 17 2007 02:47 PM

How sweet. They know of almost a dozen like it.

iramets Jan 17 2007 03:02 PM

If it were I who found this error, I would contact retrosheet.org. They find tons of these every year, and presumably have some mechanism for getting the world to sit up and take notice that doesn't involve knocking their foreheads against the brick wall.

Yancy Street Gang Jan 17 2007 03:11 PM

Yes, I did write to Retrosheet. If I hear anything from them, I'll share it here.

soupcan Jan 17 2007 03:49 PM

Jeez Yancy, your obesession with this is - there’s no other way to say it – almost childlike.

Yancy Street Gang Jan 17 2007 03:54 PM

Wah! You called me childlike! I'm gonna tell!

iramets Jan 17 2007 04:19 PM

This game btw was the Mets' second consecutive complete game shutout by a kid pitcher (Dick Rusteck on the 10th, Dennis Ribant on the 11th) of the powerful Cincy Reds. I was so excited I wanted to buy World Series tix! I knew we had arrived at last. World, bow down before our wonderful young pitchers who will dominate you for the next few decades BWAHAHAHAHA. A little premature.

Yancy Street Gang Jan 17 2007 04:22 PM

And nobody remarked at the time how that sneaky Ed Kranepool got caught stealing second base and framed Ken Boyer? It was the almost the perfect crime! It went undetected for 40 years.

Yancy Street Gang Jan 19 2007 08:14 AM

Response from Retrosheet: ]Thanks for bringing those to our attention. We get a lot of helpful feedback from site visitors, so please let us know about anything else you find. You are correct about the 8/31/63 game. Maye should not be credited with an RBI, and he is not in the official records. We have removed it from our event files. The corrected account will show the next time we update the page, but that usually happens once a year, so you may not see the correction for some time. As for the 6/11/1966 game, we agree with you that the official records for that game are incorrect. We won't speculate on why that happened. Please keep in mind that Retrosheet is not affiliated with major league baseball in any way. That means we have no authority to suggest changes in the official records. There are many discrepancies between the official records and what our game accounts show. One issue is the accuracy of the game accounts. (In this case, we have two that agree, so it is almost certain that the official record is incorrect.) We do not think it is an appropriate use of our resources or suits our purposes to ask for changes in the official records. What we do is compile files noting the discrepancies between what we have and the official records and the likely sources such as the game you mention. We plan to post the discrepancy files, but no schedule for that has been set.

Edgy DC Jan 19 2007 08:39 AM

Translation: "Elias gets paid a lot of money for doing a job that should rightly go to us. We've had it with bringing historical inaccuracies to the attention of the keepers of "the official record" on our own dime, only to be patronized by our silk-suited lessers. We think our record is more authoritative. Hell, we know it, thanks to a lot of hardworking baseball-loving history-respecting people like you. But son, you've got to ask yourself what you believe." "Oh, and don't expect to hear back from them any time soon." Good job, YSG.

Nymr83 Jan 19 2007 09:36 AM

LOL

Yancy Street Gang Jan 19 2007 11:02 AM

I'm really surprised at the cavalier attitude Elias has towards accuracy. I think the Retrosheet gang ought to be put in charge of official stats.

Edgy DC Jan 19 2007 11:15 AM

No shit. But Elias respects the notion that statistics should be treated as MLB's to distribute and present as they see fit. As MLB fights in court for the right to charge for their statistics and license their use even by folks who compiled them independently (good luck), free-sharing goodnik researchers like Retrosheet are not playing ball.

Edgy DC Jan 19 2007 11:27 AM

By the way, I think Dickshot has the potential for a magazine article on the lost game he found.

Yancy Street Gang Jan 19 2007 11:40 AM

Should I write a magazine article about the caught stealing I uncovered? Is there a Caught Stealing Monthly that I can submit it to?

Edgy DC Jan 19 2007 11:52 AM

I think the Kranepool Reporter, the official magazine of the Eddie Kranepool Society, would bite.

Nymr83 Jan 19 2007 12:30 PM

Yancy Street Gang wrote: I'm really surprised at the cavalier attitude Elias has towards accuracy. I think the Retrosheet gang ought to be put in charge of official stats. Elias finds it more profitable to avoid changes to the "record" whenever they can... I'm not sure anyone would do better, it probably comes down from MLB themselves.

seawolf17 Jan 19 2007 12:56 PM

MLB isn't here to talk about the past.

Vic Sage Jan 19 2007 01:00 PM

history is written by the winners... or, in this case, by whoever pays the bills.

metirish Jan 19 2007 01:03 PM

IIRC Billy Beane and his stat lads hated that Elias were the keepers of stats and such things for MLB.

iramets Jan 19 2007 01:18 PM

Nymr83 wrote: ="Yancy Street Gang"]I'm really surprised at the cavalier attitude Elias has towards accuracy. I think the Retrosheet gang ought to be put in charge of official stats. Elias finds it more profitable to avoid changes to the "record" whenever they can... I'm not sure anyone would do better, it probably comes down from MLB themselves. Amazing that they don't just go with the 1963 edition. Be much cheaper than all updating of this silly shit.