Master Index of Archived Threads


(Mo) Cliff Stirs It Up

Edgy DC Feb 22 2007 09:29 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Feb 22 2007 09:42 AM

It's funny, Mo shows up in New York by tossing un-necessary controversy at the recently dismissed Mets manager, plays four years as a model teammate, saying all the right things, then leaves, and tosses un-necessary controversy at Willie Randolph. If nothing else, this piece is hurt by Davidoff's lame-o lead. "In the annals of Mets disappointments... ." Please. If you can't handle a playoff loss, root for the Pirates. Advice no help BY KEN DAVIDOFF ken.davidoff@newsday.com February 22, 2007 MESA, Ariz. -- In the annals of Mets disappointments, last Oct. 19 ranks near the top. And within that crushing National League Championship Series Game 7 loss to the Cardinals, the bottom of the ninth hurts fans the most. Yesterday, far away from the tranquility of Mets camp, Cliff Floyd revealed a most interesting detail from that most painful inning. He said that Willie Randolph was "confused" and that the manager took his cue from bench coach Jerry Manuel. With the Mets trailing by two runs and runners on first and second with none out in the ninth, Floyd pinch hit for eventual losing pitcher Aaron Heilman and struck out looking against St. Louis closer Adam Wainwright. Many critics thought Willie Randolph should have used a different pinch hitter - Tom Glavine, for instance - to bunt the runners over, putting two men in scoring position with one out. "I thought he was going to bunt," Floyd, now with the Cubs, said of Randolph. "He thought about it. But Jerry talked him out of it. That's what bench coaches do, I guess. Help them out on decisions." Neither Randolph nor Manuel was available for comment yesterday at Tradition Field. Floyd recalled the sequence of events without any malice or regret in his voice. It seemed more a matter-of-fact recollection of events from one of the most honest players in all of baseball. But the words nonetheless will sting Mets fans. "He was confused," Floyd said of Randolph. "I really thought he was going to bunt." When Floyd pinch hit for Heilman, it was only his third at-bat of the series. Floyd, who underwent surgery during the offseason to remove a bone spur in his left Achilles tendon, was lifted after one at-bat in NLCS Game 1 and did not play again until a pinch-hitting appearance in Game 5. "Had I been feeling better, I thought it would have been a great call," he said of being sent up to hit. "Not that I'm second-guessing, because I was sure I was going to get a hit. But I had missed almost four games. No at-bats, nothing. Just straight BP [batting practice]." He has watched the tape of that strikeout against Wainwright, and he regrets not connecting with the few fastballs the closer offered. But on the last pitch, a nasty curveball, Floyd believes he made the right call in letting it go. "People say, 'You should've swung,' " Floyd said. "I had two things going on right there. If I hit that ball, I'm only hitting to either [Wainwright] or the second baseman. That's a double play and a half, because I couldn't run. "I said to myself, 'I'll leave it up to the [top of the] order.' I swear to you, I thought about that pitch before I went up there. I said, if he throws a fastball, swing at it. If he threw that pitch [let it go]." He continued: "Hit the ball on the ground, it's a double play, and we're really in trouble. With one out, we've got our boys coming up." The top of the order, of course, couldn't come through. Jose Reyes lined out to centerfield, Paul Lo Duca walked to load the bases and Carlos Beltran ended the Mets' season by looking at another Wainwright curveball on an 0-and-2 pitch. While the Mets try to move past their heartbreaking finish to '06, Floyd has a new beginning with a Cubs team that spent more than $300 million in the offseason in an effort to improve themselves. The Mets never seriously tried to re-sign Floyd, 34, who played in only 97 games last year because of injuries. "The only thing I really regret is not letting Mets fans see me feeling right," he said. "Other than that, business is business. I learned that early. I'm just chilling, enjoying this situation here. It's a different atmosphere. My kids get to see their grandmother [Floyd's mother, who lives in the Chicago area]. You couldn't ask for anything better." Unhappy recap In Game 7 of the 2006 NLCS, Mets reliever Aaron Heilman allowed a two-run homer to Yadier Molina in the top of the ninth to put the Cardinals ahead 3-1. The Mets tried to fight back in their turn at bat. Jose Valentin led off the bottom of the ninth with a single off Cardinals reliever Adam Wainwright. Endy Chavez singled to left to put runners on first and second with none out. The rally fizzled, however. Cliff Floyd, pinch hitting for Heilman, came up and struck out looking on six pitches. After Jose Reyes lined out to center for the second out, Paul Lo Duca walked, loading the bases (Anderson Hernandez came in to pinch run). Carlos Beltran then struck out looking on three pitches. I seem to recall Floyd declaring himself fit to swing at the time.

Yancy Street Gang Feb 22 2007 09:39 AM

I thought this was going to be about Mo Vaughn or Mariano Rivera. Had Cliff Floyd ever been known as "Mo"? That's a new one on me. I don't know why sportswriters feel they have to play up the "pain" angle. I'm not feeling any pain from that loss to the Cardinals. Sure, I wish it had turned out differently but I'm definitely don't think that angst has to be part of being a sports fan. If you can't let the losses roll off your back you're taking it too seriously.

Edgy DC Feb 22 2007 09:41 AM

I don't know how I did that. I was reading a Rivera piece while formatting this. I think I need professional help.

metirish Feb 22 2007 09:43 AM

Yeah,who is Mo?...and no big deal with what Cliff said,not like it wasn't talked about here at the time...

Johnny Dickshot Feb 22 2007 09:44 AM

I think manuel is "Mo" here. I must be as confused as Willie. never mind.

Edgy DC Feb 22 2007 09:46 AM

Really, kill me now.

DocTee Feb 22 2007 10:44 AM

I read it as "More" --as in Cliff stirs it up (again)

Edgy DC Feb 22 2007 10:50 AM

Let's move the subject beyond me right now.

Yancy Street Gang Feb 22 2007 10:56 AM

Nymr83 Feb 22 2007 11:15 AM

Floyd should really just keep his mouth shut, if he was hurting and didnt feel he coulit he should have told Willie at the time not the media 6 months later. the "journalist" who wrote that should just stfu too, anyone who thinks last year was disappointing is either not a Mets fan or is an idiot. last year was a giant leap forward.

Centerfield Feb 22 2007 12:05 PM

I get "Mo" as a nickname for Maurice and Maureen, but I never understood it for Mariano. It should be "Ma".

TransMonk Feb 22 2007 12:27 PM

Isn't Alou the new Mo?

Vic Sage Feb 22 2007 02:45 PM

putting the "Mo" contraversy aside for a mo-ment, i think he's right about the disappointment. The Mets were the best team in the NL last year. We were playing a .500 team for the pennant, had the tying runs on in the 9th inning of the 7th game... and we struck out looking. twice. Now certainly, in retrospect, we can look at the progress the franchise made last year, and be happy that we appear to be a team on the rise. But at that mo-ment... watching Beltran look at strike 3, seeing the Cards dance on the Shea grass, knowing the season was over and we would not be winning a WS for the 20th straight year... my pain and disappointment was genuine. And i don't believe for a SECOND that i'm the only one on this forum who felt that way. As to whether it was one of the most disappointing mo-ments in the annals of Mets history... well sure it was. 1) Loss of game 7 in `73 WS; 2) Sciosia hr off Gooden in 88 playoffs; 3) loss of game 2 to Yanks in 00 WS; 4) Pendleton HR off McDowell in `85; 5) Tim Leary blowing out his elbow in his first ML start; 6) Trade of Seaver for a bag of nothing; and 7) loss of game 7 to Cards in 06 WS... yep, there it is. What ever other mo-ments you may want to add to that list, certainly the loss of a game 7 of NL pennant series to an inferior opponent, for a franchise that has only been in such a situation 4 times before in its 44 year history, has to be listed among them.

Edgy DC Feb 22 2007 03:04 PM

(1) Sudden death of Gil Hodges (2) Trade of Tom Seaver (3) Gooden entering rehab the first time (4) Gooden relapsing And actually, I get a lot more sick to my stomache at moments of Mets getting arrested for child abuse or gang rape than I got at watching them eliminated in any post-season game.

Vic Sage Feb 22 2007 04:00 PM

i considered those moments, but I don't rate those things as amongst the most "disappointing" in Mets history (other than the Seaver trade, which i did list). Those are personal tragedies, with a public dimension. They are disturbing, upsetting, ire-enducing, and sad, but "disappointing" is just too weak and trivial an emotion to cover such real-life events. Thats why its an appropriate word for a game 7 loss to the Cards, and not for the death of Gil Hodges.

metirish Feb 22 2007 04:06 PM

Willie answers back ] "There's no way he could know what I said to any of my coaches. He wasn't sitting on my shoulder right next to me when we were talking. I knew what I wanted to do. I made the decision. I said to you guys what I did - over and over and over - on radio, on TV. I've been very cooperative on this. Again, forgive me if I don't play into this. Forgive me if I don't. To me, you get a little cloud, and the only way it rains is to poke a hole in it. I'm not going to do that. "Cliff's entitled to say what he wants to say. Cliff's always been very outspoken, I understand that. I love Cliff Floyd. I thought at the time whatever he could give us a chance to win the ballgame. It's all about winning the game." Manuel followed his manager's lead, keeping his comments to reporters brief, but in a good-natured way. "It's a cloud with no rain," said Manuel, meaning a story with no substance. "I love Cliff Floyd, but it's a cloud with no rain."

G-Fafif Feb 22 2007 04:14 PM

This quickly became a happy thread. The accusations leveled at various Mets were just that, weren't they? (That's not a rhetorical question; I'm trying to remember.) I don't believe a player was ever arrested in either case. We can draw our own conclusions through the press, but if nobody was arrested, you must acquit. Technically anyway. As for Mo/Cliff, in a perverse way (a very perverse way), I get a kick out of there being a legend growing from the ninth inning. I'd prefer the legend be one that involves an additional base hit, but it's more than just a rally come up short now. It's baseball lore. Was Willie really confused? Did Jerry Manuel pull the strings? Is Cliff remembering things the way he wants, facts be damned? From the other side, Adam Wainwright discusses the ninth inning (which I guess we should refer to forever more as The Ninth Inning) in this week's Sports Illustrated, admitting he was totally nervous for the first two hitters, was suddenly aware of his surroundings as "every fan at Shea Stadium was crushing me. All year I never heard the crowd. But I could hear them this time, and they were letting me have it." Then the kid decided he was going to get Beltran. Just like that. ]I knew I was going to get the job done. I said to myself, 'I am going to throw this curveball like it's the best curveball I ever threw in my life. And so he did. To the larger question of where this ranks as an on-field disappointment (leaving out deaths, trades and legal actions), I don't think we can say for sure until this year and maybe next year plays out. If this was our one shot at the big time, then it's perhaps as bad as anything. We remember Scioscia because after 1988 everything went downhill. If the Mets played a little more competently in a series at Wrigely the following summer, maybe they beat out the Cubs and who knows? Or a couple of hits here and there down the stretch in 1990 and 1988 is a footnote bracketed by two championships. I doubt Aaron Boone remained quite as horrendous for Red Sox fans as Dent and Buckner because it was avenged in a timely manner (even if one year is different from the next). If we go five wins further in 2007 than we did in 2006, we'll still gnash our teeth over The Ninth Inning, but it won't sting the same.

Johnny Dickshot Feb 22 2007 04:43 PM

The context that's wrong for me though is, if I'm being totally honest, is that I was crushed, just as crushingly if not more, at at least three other moments in that very game: 1. Molina HRs off Heilman 2. Bases loaded, 1 out, sixth inning, Valentin & Chavez leave 'em that way. 3. Delgado, Wright waste Beltran's leadoff walk, 8th inning I don't wanna come off as a total wuss, but I'd just about checked out of Hope Hotel by the time the 9th came around, frustrated with what we'd already wasted.

G-Fafif Feb 22 2007 04:57 PM

Interesting that the Floyd component has come up (or been brought up by Ken Davidoff) in that the onus in the popular mindset has been on Beltran since the game ended. The guy who's ducked the fickle finger of point for the most part is Aaron Heilman. I mean Yadier Molina? That's when I paid my bill as well, only to come rushing back in the bottom of the ninth to see if my key card still worked. Not looking to point fingers, mind you. It was a team effort...on both sides. True the Cardinals were barely a .500 club (and limped into the playoffs like lame ducks), but with the exception of missing Isringhausen and Mulder , one of whom was replaced quite nicely, they were healthier by the NLCS than they'd been since the season began. That's not to say we shouldn't have frigging beat them, but they weren't the weak sisters they had previously masqueraded as either.

Johnny Dickshot Feb 22 2007 05:00 PM

I believe that fatass Molina also drove in their first run.

Edgy DC Feb 22 2007 05:01 PM

Yeah, to go after Randolph and NotJeter Beltran, while passing on Heilman, Floyd, Delgado is just consensus chasing and not very useful analysis. What would be an interesting experiment would be to see the reaction if Heilman was a fat Dominican.

Johnny Dickshot Feb 22 2007 05:03 PM

Please not to be leaving handsome young white guy David Wright off the list of gigantic ballsucking goats.

G-Fafif Feb 22 2007 05:25 PM

I think we're about five posts away from the bomb shelter episode of The Twilight Zone. I'm content to say that while there is no i in team, there were letters like t, e, a and m in suck where Game Seven was concerned.

Edgy DC Feb 23 2007 08:24 AM

="Johnny Dickshot"]Please not to be leaving handsome young white guy David Wright off the list of gigantic ballsucking goats. Oh, David has some room to indict himself as he shows Cliffy his claws. (Note: "Mo" content.) Mets' Wright fires back at second guess by old mate Floyd Willie's Game 7 tactics called into question by turncoat NEW YORK - OCTOBER 19: Cliff Floyd #30 of the New York Mets stands dejected after striking out in the ninth inning against the St. Louis Cardinals during game seven of the NLCS at Shea Stadium on October 19, 2006 in the Flushing neighborhood of the Queens borough of New York City. The Cardinals won 3 to 1. (Photo by Nick Laham/Getty Images) Port St. Lucie, Fla. He planned to call him later, reach through the cell-phone signals and "smack him around a little bit" in the same sibling-styled way David Wright always had with Cliff Floyd. But, Wright was saying in an exclusive interview at the end of another spring training day, he would also have a message for the mentor whose bags he once toted as a rite of passage. "(I'll) just tell him to keep his big mouth shut," Wright said yesterday of Floyd's comments questioning manager Willie Randolph's decision-making in the playoffs last season. Wright laughed as he said it, offering his usual boyish grin full of affection for his friend and ex-teammate. But then the Mets third baseman offered one last statement that, even in jest, was as cutting as it was telling. "He's a Cub now," Wright said. This was a move both cold and cool, a hit man smiling right before he shot you. This was Wright showing his clubhouse family would always command his loyalty, proving he was ready to rise through the ranks to become a captain eventually, even if he had to sacrifice some personal feelings along the way. This was Wright showing he was so far removed from Floyd's shadow there should be no concern about him suffering in his absence. None of this was Wright's intent, of course. Neither was it in any way mean-spirited or vindictive. This was just a step in Wright's growth, one he probably took without even realizing he was doing so. Because when you asked Wright about the mess Floyd had dropped into the Mets' lap, he handled the whole situation delicately but firmly, simply allowing his feelings to come out. "I just think as close a friend as Cliff is ... we're gonna miss him, but it's gonna be a lot easier transition with Mo (Moises Alou)," Wright said of the Mets' new left fielder. "I think it's unnecessary," Wright added of Floyd's comments questioning Randolph's decision to pinch-hit him in the ninth inning of Game 7 last year — and his claim that bench coach Jerry Manuel talked Randolph out of bunting instead. "I love Cliff to death. He played hurt for us quite a bit. He had the opportunity to be forever remembered in New York but ... " But, as Wright would later say, "he just couldn't get the job done." Wright wasn't putting it all on Floyd there. He quickly pointed out how many of the Mets failed to hit in the series and Game 7, including himself. "I had a real tough series personally," Wright said. But he was also not-so-subtly telling his old buddy to take responsibility for his ninth-inning strikeout rather than blame the manager who had shown faith in him. "Cliff has a tendency not to think before he talks," Wright said. Wright did the opposite yesterday, initially offering something between a sigh and a chuckle about Floyd before saying he had to "read (the stories) and get educated" before commenting. When he eventually emerged, Wright could have measured his words. Could have thought about his friendship with Floyd and felt upset the Mets hadn't retained the player who had been like a big brother to him when he first came bouncing into the clubhouse. But while Wright managed to walk the fine line between friendship and concern for his current team, he asserted his independence. He did so in a more diplomatic and composed manner than his manager had. Randolph chafed at questions about Floyd's comments — never fully denying he had listened to Manuel but trying to discredit the "validity" of Floyd's claims. The manager showed more defensiveness than his usual confidence in tensely trying to dismiss the whole story. Granted Wright wasn't the one being questioned here, but he handled the queries much more smoothly — and also explained that even if his manager had listened to Manuel, Randolph never seemed "confused" as Floyd had contended. "First of all, I think (Randolph and Manuel) came to a decision together," Wright said. "That's why they put a supporting cast together. That's why you have a bench coach. The feeling on the bench was we wanted Cliff up there with the momentum we had. ... We didn't go in there to play for the tie." Floyd could have been forever remembered with a hit. Instead, he struck out and is a Cub now. Wright will always be his friend, but he's no longer his teammate. The young star who continues to step forward as the leader of the Mets is OK with that. Being on his own won't leave Wright with any baggage to carry. Dave Buscema's column appears regularly. Contact him at buscema@hotmail.com.

Johnny Dickshot Feb 23 2007 09:35 AM

Oh infant Jesus.

metirish Feb 23 2007 09:58 AM

For fucks sake David shut up...I'm starting to not like Wright.

Edgy DC Feb 23 2007 03:09 PM

So, really, what are the odds that (a) Floyd fires back, (b) he and Wright divorce formally, or (c) he's a Met again by August?

metirish Feb 23 2007 03:15 PM

I suppose a) has shortest odds of happening,I really hope this just goes away because I really have no desire to think anything bad of Floyd.

metsmarathon Feb 23 2007 08:20 PM

its such a big non-story, too. jeez... the fucking papers are really dying for some damned juice. the arod-jeter split was almost as story-less than this, and all we heard of that was "newsflash!!! arod and jeter no longer best of buddies" puh-leez!

Nymr83 Feb 23 2007 08:31 PM

willie was quoted in the post today as telling reporters something along the lines of "you're just starting trouble because you got bored of talking yankees for a few days"