Master Index of Archived Threads


New Branch Rickey book

iramets Feb 24 2007 04:17 AM

At a poetry reading last night, I ran into an old friend of mine, who once co-authored a book with Tom Seaver (but who has, alas, no Seaver-dishing for us) and who's been working on a biography of Branch Rickey that's finally coming out in April. I mentioned that perhaps some nice folks I know on a Mets fansite would be interested in talking to him about his book, and he said he'll be glad to show up and chat with us if we're interested. Are we? If so, I'll send him the link. In other news, my drop-dead gorgeous cleaning lady told me yesterday she's separating from her husband, and I'm thinking of asking her out. Please advise.

ScarletKnight41 Feb 24 2007 04:55 AM

Your friend didn't co-write Beanball, did he?

Frayed Knot Feb 24 2007 05:22 AM

perhaps some nice folks I know on a Mets fansite would be interested in talking to him about his book, and he said he'll be glad to show up and chat with us if we're interested. Are we? If so, I'll send him the link. By all means - link away. I'm always up for a good baseball biog. We've had a couple of authors drop in to plug/chat-about their baseball related books, including ex-Met Frank Thomas who had a few things to say about Mr. Rickey which were, to say the least, less than complimentry. In other news, my drop-dead gorgeous cleaning lady told me yesterday she's separating from her husband, and I'm thinking of asking her out. Please advise. Just don't try to impress her by pawning off a second hand cashmere sweater on her.

iramets Feb 24 2007 05:34 AM

ScarletKnight41 wrote: Your friend didn't co-write Beanball, did he? No, it was the one about "How be a HOF-class pitcher and knowitall" or whatever Seaver's "How-to" book was called. This was a while ago, back when people cared about Seaver's perspective more.

ScarletKnight41 Feb 24 2007 06:24 AM

The Art of Pitching?

iramets Feb 24 2007 06:49 AM

That's the one. Has anyone read it?

Edgy MD Feb 24 2007 07:35 AM

Your friend ought to speak with Frank Thomas while there are still old Pirates around to speak with. Not a lot of Rickey-era Dodgers. But, of course, the manuscript has certainly left his control if it's being printed in six weeks. Maybe he should come by when the book is out and traffic is up around here.

iramets Feb 24 2007 09:40 AM

Well, I sent him the link. I guess it's no secret that his name is Lee Lowenfish, as unlikely a monicker as that is, and maybe he can post a little bit before the book comes out and take questions afterwards as well.

ScarletKnight41 Feb 24 2007 10:07 AM

iramets wrote: That's the one. Has anyone read it? We have it. It's a nice instructional guide for young pitchers.

Edgy MD Feb 24 2007 10:19 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Feb 24 2007 11:36 AM

Questions about Branch Rickey: 1) Was the regiousness genuine, or just another angle he was playing, using sanctimoniusness as one of his staves to rule with? 2) Some reports have him giving some of the best black talent he scouted away, talent that could have maybe extended the Dodger dynasty a decade, under the notion that the project would fail if a few teams horded all the talent. Is this substantiated? 3) Some of his Dodger scouts complained that the Robinson revolution made it harder on them --- that the black players they recruited didn't want to be marginalized by signing with a team perceived as hording black talent, and the white players were drawn away by rival scouts whispering in the ears of the parents (and perhaps their parents' preachers) that they shouldn't want their sons playing for a "nigger team." Is that substantiated? 4) Did his son have any talent? He seems to have disappeared about the time his father did. 5) Clearly he was a brilliant baseball man, who nonetheless had noted character flaws. Which was the fatal flaw that kept him on the move in his baseball career?

soupcan Feb 24 2007 10:54 AM

If the cleaning lady is indeed drop dead then abso-posi-lutey ask her out. Just make sure you both know that its the cleaning you are paying her for.

iramets Feb 24 2007 02:58 PM

Edgy DC wrote: Questions about Branch Rickey: 1) Was the regiousness genuine, or just another angle he was playing, using sanctimoniusness as one of his staves to rule with? 2) Some reports have him giving some of the best black talent he scouted away, talent that could have maybe extended the Dodger dynasty a decade, under the notion that the project would fail if a few teams horded all the talent. Is this substantiated? 3) Some of his Dodger scouts complained that the Robinson revolution made it harder on them --- that the black players they recruited didn't want to be marginalized by signing with a team perceived as hording black talent, and the white players were drawn away by rival scouts whispering in the ears of the parents (and perhaps their parents' preachers) that they shouldn't want their sons playing for a "nigger team." Is that substantiated? 4) Did his son have any talent? He seems to have disappeared about the time his father did. 5) Clearly he was a brilliant baseball man, who nonetheless had noted character flaws. Which was the fatal flaw that kept him on the move in his baseball career? \ Excellent questions to get us started. I haven't heard from Lee yet, so he may be not checking his e-mail, or he may be busy today. (He also may have not expected me to followup so promptly--my reputation for sloth may have preceded me.) But I'll phone in a day or two just to make sure he hasn't changed his e-mail addy w/o telling me. When I was young, I always thought Branch Rickey was a kind of drink--a gin rickey made with branch water, which his religiousity kinda supported. Do you know the story about Rickey, the great Leo D., and a pitcher named Tom Seaton? I'm pretty sure Lee does.

MFS62 Feb 26 2007 09:40 AM

Reminds me of something I read in one of Jim Brosnan's books, probably The Long Season. Upon joining the Cards, he met with the GM (may have been Bing Devine). The GM asked him, "do you drink?" And Brosnan replied (this is from memory, so it may be a paraphrase), "If I have to drink to be here, I'm not sure I want to be a member of the team". Later

TheOldMole Feb 28 2007 01:08 AM

Who was the poetry reading?

iramets Feb 28 2007 03:57 AM

Charles North, a great poet IMO and a writer of baseball lineup poems, one of which he read to start off the reading. Very funny, very talented guy.

iramets Feb 28 2007 11:22 AM

Here's a link to a few of North's "baseball lineups" poem, with a little explanation. Good stuff.

iramets Mar 29 2007 08:01 AM

Here's a weird update--Lee came to this site, read a few threads I guess (I linked him to this one) and decided that web chats too often degenerate into name-calling and nonsense (I swear, all I told him was that this was a site full of good Mets fans who have a love of baseball history--honest!) and he felt he'd rather not. I'm going to forward Edgy's good five questions, and ask him if that's his notion of name-calling and nonsense, and maybe reconsider. He did say he's going to be on Ed Randall's "Talking Baseball" show in April 8th. I'm also going to try to find the Frank Thomas thread(s?) and the Adam Rubin threads, so he can see what happens when an author visits us here. 'm sorry that all those websites filled with shouters, haters, vicious polemicists, etc. had to ruin it for all the sweet-hearted gentle souls here. (He also said it looked complicated to register--maybe that was the key, and the "vicious web site stuff" was just tacked on--I'm not sure.)

iramets Mar 29 2007 10:23 AM

Okay--Now Lee says he would be happy to field BR questions (he thought I was inviting him to become a CPFer, not to make a one-time promotional appearance. Can an admin contact me (irafuse@gmail.com) to see if we can set up a way for him to do without going through all of the rigamarole for registering? I offered to lend him my user name and password, which would be simple, if a little confusing for CPFers not used to reading rational, authoratative posts under my user name. Otherwise, prepare your BR questions again. We should be set to go as soon as we get him registered. He liked all of Edgy's questions and is working on them now.

Edgy MD Mar 29 2007 10:56 AM

Check your PMs.

iramets Mar 29 2007 11:40 AM

Thanks. I'll open up a fresh thread and send him that link. Anyone know where the Frank Thomas discussion is? I thought that would make a decent display of our fine manners around here, but I can't find it and the Book Forum doesn't have archives, near as I can tell.

Benjamin Grimm Mar 29 2007 11:58 AM

The Frank Thomas thread

admin Mar 29 2007 01:10 PM

I haven't been paying attention to this thread ... I just got an email from iramets' colleague explaining that he had problems logging on and it looks like it's the answers to the questions you hoped to get. If one of the admins wants to check it out and doesn't remember the password shoot me an email at my regular address.

admin Apr 02 2007 12:22 PM

This is an email we got from the author ... I hope I'm assuming correctly that he wants this info posted in this thread: Hi iramets: Your friend Lee Lowenfish sent you information about this University of Nebraska Press title: http://www.nebraskapress.unl.edu/bookinfo/5194.html. Comment: Here is website for my book at the university press. It's also available from amazon.com and I'll reading and signing at Labyrinth Books Mon April 9th at 7p W 112th Street a few doors east of Broadway south side of street - cheers from Lee Low'

admin Apr 04 2007 04:48 PM

I guess Mr. Lowenfish isn't returning. Anyway, here is the text from his original email ... and thanks from all of us who submitted questions and those who didn't too: It's very difficult for me to get onto your site - but here are some answers to your thoughtful questions. Yes I interviewed Kiner and of course there was friction between them and I present both sides in the matter. Rickey's side, rarely noted, is that Kiner was a one-dimensional player who only helped with the bat and in getting on base in his prime. However, he lacked speed and Rickey loved speed. Kiner's prime was going fast in Rickey's mid-Pgh years and when he was traded in 1953 it was admittedly a salary dump. It should be noted though that Kiner's career ended after 1955. Another source of friction was Kiner's role in the nascent Players Association - he objected to an instructional league team being created in fall 1951 and Rickey thought it was none of his business. My take on Rickey is that he lived up to his goal as being a consistent player/executive and consistent Christian that he uttered in 1906 when his religosity was a curiosity to the sporting press. It was not a pose but what he said in 1906 he believed for his entire life - being religious doesn't help you become a good ballplayer and why should it? But it certainly could help you, too. (In terms of consistency, Rickey also wanted to Stan Musial to retire in St. Louis and that got controversial too of course.) He moved a lot in his career because he was restless by nature (his father established churches of his own in southern Ohio when he felt the minister was not adequate enough!) and in secular financial terms, he was expensive and believed that he was worth it. I think baseball history and certainly New York baseball history would have been different if Rickey had stayed in Brooklyn. But the death of John L. Smith in July 1950 meant the die was cast. And when his contract expired in October 1950 he was gone to Pittsburgh. Rickey's son died of complications from diabetes in 1961 four years before his father. He helped build the Pirates team that won in 1960 and at least he enjoyed some of the glory. He should have run the Pirates after his father was kicked upstairs in 1955 but the name Rickey was associated with the years of failure in the early 1950s so it couldn't be. Joe L. Brown gave me a good interview about that transition and how when scouting the south for the Pirates in the 1950s the name of Rickey was golden in the black communities as it should have been. I don't go into if-history very much in the book but certainly Rickey was glad that the Giants entered the market for black players with Irvin, Hank Thompson and Willie Mays and while Rickey openly admitted that his sale of Jethroe to the Boston Braves in 1950 was because ownership feared too many blacks on one team, he was glad that Boston was now integrating. O'Malley was smart enough to keep the key black players in Brooklyn. And to retain Bavasi and Fresco Thompson who had helped build the farm system and were fortunate enough to be MacPhail hirees and thus not Rickey men. Glad to answer any more questions - one last point - as to "character flaws" let he or she with the perfect character cast the first stone. Will be reading and signing at Labyrinth Books at 536 W 112th Street on Monday April 9 at 7p - and also at Berra Museum in Montclair Sunday afternoon May 20 at 3p. Maybe I'll learn how to access your website better but for now hope you can spread these answers around. Cheers from Lee Lowenfish

Edgy MD Apr 04 2007 10:21 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Apr 05 2007 06:54 AM

Special thanks to Pr. Lowenfish. Sorry I come across speaking so authoritatively on character flaws, and I certainly have more than a few. People's position on Rickey's character inconsistencies is documented, and I think relevent. I think I was trying to introduce them and I'd be happy to dig up some quotes. Certainly his contributions to the game are beyond question. One of the guys I'm referring to is Orioles/Reds scouting director Jim McLaughlin, who introduced bureaucratic control --- reining in the cowboy culture in scouting --- and psychological profiles of prospects. He said this of Rickey in Dollar Sign on the Muscle: "In one way all of that was picking up where Branch Rickey left off... even though I never liked Rickey. I thought he was an ethical fraud, the way he manipulated people and then made thouse pious speeches. There was no substance. I couldn't have worked for him two minutes, because of my Jesuit educaton. I could see through him. But when it came to producing talent, the man had real intelligence, real imagination, because he could change his thinking --- like a good novelist who doesn't just kept repeating himself after the first novel. And near the end of his career, he was ready for scientific scouting." "Up to that time, see, Rickey was a Darwinist. 'Quality out of quantity' is really a version of natural selection. The other baseball men didn't even know who the hell Darwin was, so Rickey could operate like one of these companies that gets a monopoly on the market. Then, when farm systems got too expensive, and when bonuses went sky-high, Rickey changed. He went after quality only, to the extent that he could. He was trying conscious selection --- even though the tools weren't very precise. But if he were alive today, he'd be experiment with new tools: tests, special equipment, computers. He wouldn't be bound by the conventional wisdom, because he waas the guy who invented the conventional wisdom. I quote the whole excerpt to show how considered the opinion is, and that McLaughlin isn't just speaking from prejudice. Again, thanks for answering.

iramets Apr 05 2007 06:07 AM

Well, he did say he's "Glad to answer any more questions"--I'll forward more to him, and send his answers along (I've offered to show him how easy it is to log on in person, but we haven't gotten togeher yet.)

Frayed Knot Apr 05 2007 07:16 AM

Do we know why he (and, in general, maybe others as well) aren't able to log on?

Edgy MD Apr 05 2007 07:27 AM

No. I set up his account and password mice elf. And I was able to log in with it. I think he may have initially had problems with case sensitivity. Don't know what his subsequent problem might have been.

metirish Apr 05 2007 07:29 AM

Cheers for answering the questions,and I don't think I ever heard the Rickey side of the Kiner argument.

iramets Apr 05 2007 07:56 AM

Frayed Knot wrote: Do we know why he (and, in general, maybe others as well) aren't able to log on? \ Edgy all but punched the buttons for him (I will literally do that when I see him). Some people just aren't comfortable with computers (though when he taught sports journalism for us, he entered his grades on-line just fine.)

Frayed Knot Apr 12 2007 08:47 PM

I just wanted to make sure that we don't unwittingly have an unjumpable newbie boundry here. btw, your buddy was on late night (very late) WFAN last night to talk about his book. I had trouble sleeping so was up as he was set to come on ... and then I promptly fell asleep and missed the whole thing.