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Franco v. Mussina

Edgy DC
Mar 13 2007 09:44 AM

Pros weighing in on amateur issues.



Council Moves Toward Ban on Metal High School Bats
By SEWELL CHAN
Published: March 13, 2007


New York City would become one of the first cities in the country to prohibit the use of metal bats in high school baseball games, under a bill that a City Council committee approved yesterday and that the full Council is considered all but certain to pass tomorrow.

The issue has sharply divided youth baseball leagues, coaches, players and fans. Industry groups have hired lobbying and public relations firms to oppose the bill, while parents of players severely injured by balls hit off metal bats have given tearful testimony in support of it.

Even players from Major League Baseball, which uses only wood bats, have taken positions: Mike Mussina, a Yankees pitcher, is against the ban; John Franco, a former Mets pitcher, is for it.

The Council’s Youth Services Committee approved the bill on a 4-to-0 vote. The bill has 32 sponsors and the support of the Council speaker, Christine C. Quinn. They would need 34 votes, two-thirds of the 51 members on the Council, to override a veto by Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg.

“The mayor has some skepticism both about whether this bill fixes the problem it says it does and whether this is something the government should be doing,” a mayoral spokesman, Stu Loeser, said yesterday. “He has made no decision about a veto.”

According to the Council, it would cost the city’s public high schools $253,500 to replace 5,070 metal or metal-composite bats used by 169 baseball teams with wood bats, and $67,600 a year thereafter to replace broken wood bats. The bill’s sponsors said they would ask donors to defray the costs for private and parochial schools.

The bill’s leading proponent, Councilman James S. Oddo, said that youth baseball regulatory bodies had failed to respond to highly publicized episodes in which children were critically injured by balls hit with metal bats.

“Where the overseeing bodies have failed to live up to their responsibility to protect these kids, it falls into our laps,” Mr. Oddo, Republican of Staten Island, said at a committee hearing yesterday before the vote.

Critics of metal bats say that a batted ball flies faster off a metal bat than off a wood one. As a result, they say, the ball may strike a young pitcher in the head before he has a chance to protect himself.

But David A. Ettinger, a Detroit lawyer for Easton Sports, a leading bat maker based in Van Nuys, Calif., said there were no reliable studies to establish greater risk to players from metal bats. “It is fundamentally illogical and has no scientific support,” he said of the bill.

The New York City bill would require that only wood bats be used in competitive high school baseball games, effective Sept. 1. An earlier version of the bill, introduced in 2001, would have covered Little League and independent leagues as well, but Mr. Oddo narrowed the proposal to gain broader support within the Council.

In New Jersey, a State Assembly committee voted in October to approve a broader bill that would ban metal and metal-composite bats from league and school baseball games played by children 17 and younger. The full Assembly and the Senate have not yet voted on it.

The North Dakota High School Activities Association has banned nonwood bats, starting this spring.

But New York appears likely to be among the first cities to enact legislation banning nonwood bats.

The City Council heard testimony in October from Debbie Patch of Miles City, Mont., whose 18-year-old son, Brandon, was killed by a ball in a high school game on July 25, 2003. Yesterday, the Council heard from Joseph Domalewski of Wayne, N.J., whose 12-year-old son, Steven, was critically injured in a game on June 6, 2006. Brandon was hit in the head, and Steven in the chest, with balls hit by metal bats.

Two high school baseball coaches testified in favor of the ban. Jack Curran, a veteran coach at Archbishop Molloy High School in Queens, said he believed that metal bats endanger pitchers. “We may need a screen in front of pitchers during games, if we continue using these bats,” he said.

Philip Romero, baseball coach at Christopher Columbus High School in the Bronx, said the “sweet spot” — the area on the bat where the batter makes the best contact with the ball — is larger on aluminum bats than on wood ones. “In my view, aluminum bats are no better than steroids for the game of baseball,” he said.

But several coaches, including Steve Mandl of George Washington High School in Manhattan, testified that the ban was unjustified. The New York Catholic High Schools Athletic Association also opposes the ban.

Little League Baseball and Softball and another league, Protect Our Nation’s Youth, oppose the ban. USA Baseball, the governing body for amateur baseball, offered to finance a one-year independent study of the frequency and severity of injuries associated with metal and wood bats, with input from the Council, but Mr. Oddo rejected the idea.

Metal bats were introduced in the early 1970s as a cost-saving alternative to wood bats, and by the early 1980s, a consensus had emerged among players and coaches that metal bats outperform wood ones. The National Collegiate Athletic Association first adopted guidelines for limiting bat performance in 1998.

Researchers from Brown University found in 2001 that baseballs hit with a metal bat traveled faster than those hit with a wood bat, but could not conclusively identify the factors responsible for the difference in performance. Since then, the N.C.A.A. and the National Federation of State High School Associations have adopted rules requiring that metal bats perform no better than the best wood bats.

On Sunday, Richard M. Greenwald, one of the Brown researchers, wrote that he knew of no scientific data to support the notion “that the use of nonwood bats poses an unacceptable risk to children, particularly high school competitive players,” according to an e-mail message released by Easton Sports.

Bat makers have hired Suri Kasirer and Stanley K. Schlein, prominent city lobbyists, and Knickerbocker SKD, a media consulting firm. Mr. Ettinger, the lawyer for Easton Sports, said yesterday that the ban, if enacted, could face a strong legal challenge.

Yancy Street Gang
Mar 13 2007 09:48 AM

Whatever happened to graphite bats?

They were supposed to be as unbreakable as aluminum, but perform more like wood.

Edgy DC
Mar 13 2007 09:52 AM

I ask the same question.

sharpie
Mar 13 2007 09:59 AM

The league that Lenny played in til last year banned metal bats for kids aged 10 and up so Lenny played in the end of the metal era. As a now former coach I agree with the ruling. I have seen balls come off of those metal bats at frightening speeds. We used to end seasons with a parent/kid game. One of my pitchers was pitching against his mother (a good athlete in her own right) who hit a line drive that he couldn't react to fast enough. Luckily it only hit him in the leg (though he was hurt badly enough that he had to leave the game) but much higher and it would have been pretty bad.

Johnny Dickshot
Mar 13 2007 10:01 AM

You know, they can manufacture aluminum bats to perform to certain standards if they only come up with some. Why not start there rather than go ask John Franco what he believes to be the case.

Edgy DC
Mar 13 2007 10:10 AM

'Cause it's fun to ask a guy whose last hit was in 1989* about bat performance.

(*Name the pitcher.)

metirish
Mar 13 2007 10:26 AM

Rick Sutcliffe ..........

I have no clue as to which bat is safer,it would seem to me that getting beaned by a ball in the head would be dangerous coming from either bat.

Yancy Street Gang
Mar 13 2007 11:04 AM

MLB.com actually has a bat buying guide, and graphite is mentioned:

http://shop.mlb.com/sm-baseball-bat-buyers-guide--bg-222833.html

Sports Authority is selling one for $199.

http://www.sportsauthority.com/sm-louisville-yb71c-tpx-catalyst-composite-youth-baseball-bat--pi-2260028.html

soupcan
Mar 13 2007 11:17 AM

Yancy Street Gang wrote:
Whatever happened to graphite bats?

They were supposed to be as unbreakable as aluminum, but perform more like wood.


And supposedly the ceramic bats even sound like the wood ones.

Win-win.

Rockin' Doc
Mar 14 2007 07:49 AM

The advantage of aluminum or composite bats over wooden ones is that the sweet spot is dramatically larger in the metal bats. The reduction of weight allows batters to swing the bat with far more bat head speed which coupled with the larger sweet spot results in more hard hit balls. As someone who grew up using first wood bats and then eventually switched to metal, I can tell you that I and my fellow teammates over the years became convinced that the ball just seemed to "jump" off of the metal bats. Anyone that doesn't think the ball reacts differently off of a metal bat than a wooden one, should try dropping a few bunts against a good fast ball with each. It is much tougher and requires far better technique to deaden the ball with the metal bats.

Nymr83
Mar 14 2007 08:16 AM

]The New York City bill would require that only wood bats be used in competitive high school baseball games, effective Sept. 1. An earlier version of the bill, introduced in 2001, would have covered Little League and independent leagues as well, but Mr. Oddo narrowed the proposal to gain broader support within the Council.


in other words, the younger kids who may need protecting arent being protected while hte 15-18 year olds, who imo are old enough that if they are worried about metal bats hitting hte ball to them too hard shouldnt be playing can now no longer use them. good job idiot council!

edit- as far as grafite goes i'm told they are pretty cost prohibitive, $200 each or something like that.

Yancy Street Gang
Mar 14 2007 09:35 AM

="Nymr83"]as far as grafite goes i'm told they are pretty cost prohibitive, $200 each or something like that.


It's not that bad! I found one at Sports Authority (see above) for only $199!

What does an aluminum bat go for these days?

Edgy DC
Mar 14 2007 09:44 AM

Are they longer lasting? Are they recylable?

Are they made by major manufacturers? I assume greater demand can drive the price down.

Johnny Dickshot
Mar 14 2007 10:03 AM

A top-quality aluminum softball bat these days can go for $500!

The first graphite composite bats came from Easton in the late 80s/early 90s but they encountered issues breaking in cold weather and "giving" upon contact so that they'd "throw" the ball, rather than strike it.

They also didn't make a noise that was acceptable to ballplayers -- a dull "whup!" as opposed to the sharper "ping!"s and crack!s or aluminum and wood bats, respectively.

Nymr83
Mar 14 2007 10:13 AM

the major manufacturers, or at least some of them do make them and i'm sure they'd make more of them if the demand grew, i don't know how long lasting they are as compared to metal.
aluminum bat costs are all over the board with modell's website listing adult bats from $40 to $300.
none of this is my point though. my point is if aluminum is dangerous, as the spomsors of this legislation claim, then why arent they protecting little leaguers BEFORE high school kids?

soupcan
Mar 14 2007 10:16 AM

The only thing I can think of in response to that is that the danger would be less to little leaguers because, on average, they are smaller and don't swing or hit the ball nearly as hard as a high school kid would.

Nymr83
Mar 14 2007 10:21 AM

they're also far less likely to be able to get our of the way or put their glove up in time on a batted ball. theres also a certain responsibility aspect to it... a 17 year old chooses to play baseball and accepts the risks, a 10 year old is (often) told by mommy and daddy that its time to go play.

Johnny Dickshot
Mar 14 2007 10:22 AM

Here's Easton's ceramic/carbon bat:

sharpie
Mar 14 2007 10:23 AM

Soupcan is right, that is the reason. Having until last season watched teams from 5 years old to 14 years old, it was only in the last couple of years as skill levels increased and kids got much bigger that there was any real danger. Plus the balls get harder as they age up. It is easier to hit a ball harder and farther with a metal bat which is good for smaller kids as it helps them gain confidence but if these kids are serious about playing baseball (and at high school is when most kids stop playing baseball unless they are serious) they would have to switch to wood eventually anyway.

Yancy Street Gang
Mar 14 2007 10:23 AM

I agree with Namor's point. A 12-year-old kid can hit the ball plenty hard.

A 7-year-old in a T-league is a different story. But they don't hit the ball hard enough to break bats, either, so they could probably get by with wooden bats.

soupcan
Mar 14 2007 10:37 AM

Nymr83 wrote:
they're also far less likely to be able to get our of the way or put their glove up in time on a batted ball.


But again, the balls wouldn't be hit as hard and, as sharpie said, the balls themselves aren't as hard. Could a LLer get hurt as a result of a kid using a metal bat instead of a wood one? Absolutely but the risk is simply not as great as it is for older kids.


Nymr83 wrote:
theres also a certain responsibility aspect to it... a 17 year old chooses to play baseball and accepts the risks, a 10 year old is (often) told by mommy and daddy that its time to go play.


My kid is 10, been playing LL for 6 years now and I pretty much know all the kids, coaches and parents. There are kids that aren't as good as others but I'd be hard pressed to name one kid who is on a team and doesn't want to be. I'm sure that situation does exist somewhere but I don't think its nearly as prevalent as you surmise.

Edgy DC
Mar 14 2007 10:41 AM

I didn't realize Namor's point was to hold the floor.

Specualtion why this applies particularly to high schoolers, besides those points above, include that the city council has more authority over interscholastic sports, funded from the city purse.

The high schools can cry that the rule is expensive and deman more money. Little League would be heavily pinched, and likely take the city to court, being forced to buy more expensive equipment out of their own pockets, raising their fees, making them more cost prohibitive for many families, particularly families of color, and put them at a competitive disadvantage when the city teams go up against teams from outside the city and the state. So the council is laying off Little League... for now.

I have forseen this.

sharpie
Mar 14 2007 10:46 AM

Yet the Prospect Park Baseball Association (which, I am told, has the largest group of players in the whole country) has voluntarily gone along with the ruling, extending it to middle school kids. This would also apply to other organizations that PPBA teams play which means that basically all organized baseball in Brooklyn will be played with wooden bats once the kids are 12 or so.

Also, at 10 years old all the kids want to play. 8 year olds and younger are forced by daddy to play, once they get into the double digits they choose for themselves.

soupcan
Mar 14 2007 10:49 AM

I've gotta say though, that the lower levels of LL could absolutely use wood bats. Their concern, I gather, is that the bats break and they are costly to replace.

The kids don't throw hard enough or swing hard enough at those ages to break bats so if it will appease Namor and people who agree with him then why not get the wood bats?