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South Carolina talking secession again?

Yancy Street Gang
Jul 26 2005 08:47 AM

From the Philadelphia Inquirer:

Pa. pilgrims join exodus to South Carolina
Evangelicals want a biblically governed state.

By Paul Nussbaum
Inquirer Staff Writer


GREENVILLE, S.C. - Frank and Tammy Janoski, the Pennsylvania pilgrims, have landed.

With their four children, they have settled into a little subdivision in the country, the first transplants of a movement that wants to bring legions of conservative Christians here to turn South Carolina's government into a biblically inspired oasis.

In the South Carolina of their dreams, abortion would be illegal. The Ten Commandments would be proudly displayed. Public schools would be a thing of the past. Taxes would be severely limited, and property rights would be paramount.

And if the federal government tried to interfere, well, they'd secede.

So far, the Christian Exodus movement has not been a mighty magnet for change. Only four other families have followed the Janoskis' lead, a far cry from the "thousands of Christians" touted on the group's Web site. Even the founder of the group is still in his California home, promising to move in 2006 or 2007.

Their idea, however, is as old as America: a haven for like-minded people with a government run according to their particular religious lights. Pennsylvania, Massachusetts, Rhode Island and Utah all got their start as religious sanctuaries.

And it touches a deep-seated tension within Christianity - how much to withdraw from the contaminating influences of the outside world, and how much to engage the world and try to transform it.

"Historically, evangelical Christianity has had a vacillating relationship with the culture," said James L. Guth, a professor of political science at Furman University here, who has studied the influence of religion on politics. "For much of the 19th century, evangelical Protestants were the culture. A lot of that changed for a while in the 20th century... . They tried to wall themselves off from the culture."

That shift from engagement to withdrawal, known as the Great Reversal, formed the fundamentalist branch of evangelicals. Intent on protecting themselves from such worldly influences as the theory of evolution and the seductions of Hollywood, conservative Christians often cited a biblical injunction: "Therefore come out from them, and be separate from them, says the Lord, and touch nothing unclean; then I will welcome you."

That stance began to change by midcentury, as more moderate evangelicals broke from the fundamentalists. And in the 1980s, the emergence of such groups as the Christian Coalition and the Moral Majority brought many conservative Christians back into the political fray, invoking Jesus' Sermon on the Mount:

" 'You are the salt of the earth... . You are the light of the world... let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father in heaven.' "

That Reversal of the Great Reversal, as some scholars call it, is now in full swing. Politically active conservative Christians were crucial to President Bush's election victories in 2000 and 2004, and they are vocal supporters of Supreme Court nominee John G. Roberts Jr.

To Cory Burnell, founder of Christian Exodus, that political activity isn't enough. He wants something more radical - a kind of Christian Free State.

"We believe that Christ's admonition to go and make disciples of all nations does not exclude any facets of life," Burnell said by telephone from his Valley Springs, Calif., home. "We're asking people to move and do something new. Our intent is to put men in office who will do what [ousted Alabama Supreme Court Chief Justice] Roy Moore did - defy the federal government."

The group's goal is to have 2,500 members in two upstate counties by September 2006, and as many as 12,000 by 2008. That, Burnell said, would be enough to elect local candidates and snowball into a statewide force. Soon, enough right-thinking officials would be elected to force a confrontation with the feds.

"We are proponents of federal conflict," Burnell said. "People ought to stand up, they ought to flirt with arrest."

Burnell, 29, used to be a regional director in Texas for the League of the South, a secessionist organization. Robert Hayes, director of the league in South Carolina, said his group is working with Christian Exodus on the "common goal of self-government."

The last time South Carolina seceded from the union was Dec. 20, 1860, lighting the fuse that touched off the Civil War. This time, Burnell figures secession, if necessary, could be peaceful. He admits the state could not fight the U.S. military.

"I don't think it will come to bloodshed," he said. "I think it will come to compromise."

Many South Carolinians, including conservatives, are skeptical about the new group.

"It doesn't seem to be the kind of thing that would have much impact," said Bob Taylor, a Greenville County councilman who is also a dean at Bob Jones University, the fundamentalist Christian college here. Active in Republican politics, Taylor said that "even the conservative religious right is not where they want to go."

And Taylor said of the notion of secession, "That didn't turn out so well the last time, did it?"

Brent Nelsen, a Christian who is a political science professor at Furman University, said, "What kind of balance do they expect to tip? The balance is already strongly Republican and from the religious right.

"This is a conservative part of the state in a conservative part of the country," Nelsen said. "Many of the elected officials are seen as Christian men who bring Christian values to their decision-making."

"I don't think Christian Exodus is going to make a big dent here."

The Janoskis, however, say they have gotten only supportive reactions from their new neighbors.

"At least to my face, no one has said anything negative," said Frank Janoski, 38, an affable, self-employed computer engineer. "I haven't met anyone who said, 'Y'all need to go home.' "

The Janoskis moved here in February from Mohrsville, in Berks County. They had lived in Bethlehem, Pa., for 11 years (Tammy grew up in nearby Lehighton) before moving to Mohrsville two years ago.

They learned about Christian Exodus from a church friend.

Dissatisfied with Republican politicians, Frank Janoski said the Christian Exodus philosophy resonated with him.

"The Republicans control the government, yet things are getting worse. When I found Christian Exodus, I thought: Here's a bunch of Christians like me."

"We want to take an area that is conservative to begin with and bring more conservatives in and have an influence. We want to return to a country where you can protect the life of the unborn, define marriage as a man and a woman, protect family values."

Joe Elster, 41, brought his wife and three children here last month from Omaha, Neb., after hearing about Christian Exodus on conservative radio talker Sean Hannity's program.

Born in Philadelphia and reared in Buffalo, Elster saw the opportunity to be closer to family in Virginia and North Carolina while advancing his political beliefs.

"I've been a Republican ever since I was able to vote, but I voted for the Constitution Party in 2004," Elster said, sitting in his new home in Inman. "The Republican Party has gotten away from those who got them elected. The judiciary is out of control. It's time somebody did something, and that's what Christian Exodus is about - doing something."

Burnell, the Christian Exodus founder, acknowledged, "I'd hoped we'd be further along by now. But if it takes two years or 20 years, we're making progress. And as we have successes, I'm sure more people will join us."

ScarletKnight41
Jul 26 2005 08:58 AM

]And Taylor said of the notion of secession, "That didn't turn out so well the last time, did it?"


For some reason, that line set me off in giggles.

Elster88
Jul 26 2005 08:58 AM

]Joe Elster, 41,


No relation.

seawolf17
Jul 26 2005 09:14 AM

I'd be willing to sell South Carolina to the bible-thumpers, if they promised to all move there and stay there and leave us alone.

ScarletKnight41
Jul 26 2005 09:35 AM

I was in Charleston with some friends back in May. I was hoping to find my account of the trip in the old forum, but it was zapped in the cyber tsunami.

Anyway, the defining impression of South Carolina for me was when we toured the Magnolia plantation (this wasn't necessarily my choice of activity, but when you're traveling with a group, two of whom were celebrating big birthdays, you go along with things). The first thing we did was pop into the little theater with the film explaining the plantation's history (hey, it was air conditioned in there). They finally got to the point of acknowledging that this was a slave plantation (duh!), which was quickly followed up by the narrator saying, "But if you were going to be a slave....."

I have no idea how that sentence ended. I was too busy laughing hysterically for the next several minutes.

The whole attitude is summed up perfectly by Tom Lehrer's satirical "I Wanna Go Back to Dixie" -



I wanna go back to Dixie,
Take me back to dear ol' Dixie,

That's the only li'l ol' place for li'l ol' me.
Ol' times there are not forgotten,
Whuppin' slaves and sellin' cotton,
And waitin' for the Robert E. Lee.
(It was never there on time.)
I'll go back to the Swanee,
Where pellagra makes you scrawny,
And the Honeysuckle clutters up the vine
I really am a-fixin'
To go home and start a-mixin'
Down below that Mason-Dixon line.

Oh, poll tax, how I love ya, how I love ya,
My dear old poll tax.

Won'tcha come with me to Alabammy,
Back to the arms of my dear ol' Mammy,
Her cookin's lousy and her hands are clammy,
But what the hell, it's home.
Yes, for paradise the Southland is my nominee.
Jes' give me a ham hock and a grit of hominy.

I wanna go back to Dixie
I wanna be a dixie pixie
And eat cornpone 'til it's comin' outta my ears
I wanna talk with Southern gentlemen
And put my white sheet on again,
I ain't seen one good lynchin' in years.
The land of the boll weevil,
Where the laws are medieval,
Is callin' me to come and nevermore roam.
I wanna go back to the Southland,
That "y'all" and "shet-ma-mouth" land,
Be it ever so decadent,
There's no place like home.

Johnny Dickshot
Jul 26 2005 09:37 AM

Upstate South Carolina is being populated by industries fleeing union labor a lot faster than secessionist Christians. Perhaps in a few years they'll make Christian automobiles (they only make right turns. Ha ha!)

Is this country great or what.

Frayed Knot
Jul 26 2005 09:57 AM

I won't be worried until I read; 'Shots fired at Ft. Sumpter'

MFS62
Jul 26 2005 12:05 PM

Mom, that is my all time favorite Tom Lehrer song. Thanks.

I just got back from a week in Myrtle Beach. Didn't really notice or hear reports on any of this.

But here's one thing I found "funny":
I the MB area directory, they listed houses of worrship.
They listed chruches by demonination, with the names and contact info under each denomination. The denominations and the info were in alphabetical order.
But as I scanned the list for "Jewish" there was nothing under "J".
Then, further down the list I saw "Synogogues" , with two listed by name, the second one saying "Orthodox".

I don't know why they did it that way, but it was amusing to try to think of what reasons they might have had for doing it that way. (e.g. - They didn't want to confuse Orthodox Judiasm with Eastern Orthodox?) I dunno.

Later

rpackrat
Jul 27 2005 03:04 PM

Charleston is a great city, but if the religious wingnuts want to occupy SC and secede, I'll vote to let them go.

Elster88
Jul 27 2005 03:06 PM

WARNING: THE JOKE THAT FOLLOWS ISN'T INTENDED AS THE START OF A LONG POLITICAL DISCUSSION. IT IS MERELY A SEMI-CUTE OBSERVATION.

Hey, if South Carolina had left a while back Bush woulda never been president.

Edgy DC
Jul 27 2005 03:14 PM

Yeah, well, a couple of carpetbaggers with a chip on their shoulder talking big doesn't really equate to "South Carolina talking secession again."

Yancy Street Gang
Jul 27 2005 05:10 PM

Hence the question mark.

metsmarathon
Jul 27 2005 05:20 PM

i should so start a forum for christians who hate christians...

jerseyshore
Aug 04 2005 05:43 PM
Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Aug 04 2005 09:05 PM

as a graduate of THE University of South Carolina, it saddens me to see what is (except for Columbia, where the university is located) a rather nice state, with wonderful, freindly, homey people connected to this group of loonies.

Is it a bastion of liberal, progressive thought...NO. Does it bear the stigma of being the state with the largest % (and maybe actual number) of slaves....YES. Is it a virtual "living museum" of ideas from which others have long since evolved?........YES. But I have many fond memories of my time there...

MFS62
Aug 04 2005 07:19 PM

Jersey, then you must have eaten in the "Lizzard's Thicket".
A meat and two sides for $4.95.
And sweet tea, too.
Please share the experience with our fine CPF crew.

Later

jerseyshore
Aug 04 2005 09:04 PM

MFS62 wrote:
Jersey, then you must have eaten in the "Lizzard's Thicket".
A meat and two sides for $4.95.
And sweet tea, too.
Please share the experience with our fine CPF crew.

Later


Actually, I was fortunate off to live just around the corner from the first, dare I say original "Lizzards Thicket"......a meat and two, Southenr Home cooking. After a rough Saturday evening we would wake the next afternoon and head over to food nirvana. AAAHHHHH