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So I'm Sitting Here Minding My Own Business....Dec. 2001
| Centerfield May 08 2007 07:17 PM Edited 2 time(s), most recently on May 08 2007 07:44 PM |
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What would an archive be without an entry from our old friend. Some really good stuff in here. Widey attempts to restrain Ms. Met from exercising her Constitutional right to an opinion! Sal claims to think rationally for 30 minutes a week! marathon refuses to kiss CF! All in one thread!
Not only does this continue this fantasy you have where Doubleday is responsible for all the good and Wilpon for all the bad - but $95mil must come from one helluva an eydropper. Considering that, plus the claim that the organization lost money on that payroll last year; what level of would you consider sufficient? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ms Met II Clint Hurdle  C, OF, 3B, 1983, 1985, 1987 Posts: 224 (12/15/01 1:21 pm) Re: So I'm sittin' there minding my own business... You left out a word, LF, what level of WHAT would I consider sufficient? As for our ownership, it's not my intention to paint Nelson Doubleday as some kind of patron saint. God knows, he's made his mistakes along the way and he's been in the background more than the foreground in recent years. Still, imo Fred Wilpon has put his own interests ahead of the team's more often than not and I certainly wouldn't say that the Mets have been major players in terms of signing big name guys. Certainly not to the extent that the @#%$ have, and certainly not enough to deserve being lumped in with the boys from the Bronx for a collective Bronx cheer from the rest of baseball. I just found those articles a little off the mark. $95 million payroll or not, we certainly haven't been standing in anyone's way in regard to signing big name players. Just ask the Rangers, to whom we practically handed A-Rod on a silver platter (or platinum, considering the size of his contract). The majority of the really big money deals in baseball in recent years have NOT involved the Mets: ARod, Griffey, Mussina, Hampton, Giambi. The top eight guys in salary were listed in another thread here yesterday, at least two, if not three, of those eight are @#%$. Not ONE of them is a Met. Wilpon may be spending the money, but he sure ain't spending it on the top tier. Like soldier's in the winter's night with a vow to defend No retreat and baby...NO SURRENDER! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ LF Alex Escobar  OF, 2001 Posts: 121 (12/15/01 4:51 pm) Re: So I'm sittin' there minding my own business...
Payroll.
Yes he is. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ms Met II Tony Phillips  OF, 1998 Posts: 241 (12/15/01 7:21 pm) Re: So I'm sittin' there minding my own business... Payroll - that's what I figured. $95 million is about right considering the market we're in. I've got no problem with the amount of the current budget, just with how Wilpon deigns to spend it. Uh, other than Piazza and now Alomar, who have we got on the team who would be considered a top tier player? I can't think of anyone, except maybe Al Leiter, but I'm not even sure about Al anymore. Is Fonzie considered top tier? If so, he still ranks as a bargain, at least until we start talking contract extension. And going into this off-season, Steve Phillips came right out and stated that we couldn't go for any big name FA's, all of our moves had to be done through trade. And even in the trades, aside from Alomar, all of the potential objects and all of the guys we've picked up have been something other than "top tier". In the meantime, Fat George and his stooges have been snapping up all of the big names right and left. I still don't see how we manage to rank with them on this score. Like soldier's in the winter's night with a vow to defend No retreat and baby...NO SURRENDER! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ LF Alex Escobar  OF, 2001 Posts: 122 (12/15/01 8:10 pm) Re: So I'm sittin' there minding my own business... I have much trouble following you at times. * You say that we're handing out money with an eyedropper - then say that the current level is about right - then continually blame only Wilpon for not spending it right (even though it's not him that spends it). There's no way we could have gone after "big name guys" this year without first clearing payroll; ie. making trades. (That $95 figure's about right - remember) In the last week, SP has improved the team while keeping payroll similar to, or maybe slighty below (w/Justice gone), last year's figure (when they supposedly lost money). From this point on, it's a question whether you add missing pices through the FA route - depending on whether how those targets are priced; OR via trades - depending on what the human & dollar prices are on that front. The owners come in if/when SP says that he believes certain player X is 'getable' and will make all the difference but will push the payroll to level Y. According to both owners, the decision to green-light such a move has always been made jointly. (on edit) if your point is that we're not spending like the @#%$ then you're right, nobody is, because nobody else has their revenues. Edited by: LF at: 12/15/01 7:18:07 pm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ms Met II Tony Phillips  OF, 1998 Posts: 242 (12/16/01 2:33 pm) Re: So I'm sittin' there minding my own business...
That's precisely my point - I thought I'd made that clear from the beginning, guess I wasn't as clear as I thought. What I didn't understand is why the writers of the columns in question were lumping us in with the @#%$ as dominating the market when it's patently untrue. And for the record - I have no problem with what SP has done this off-season. Frankly, I think he often takes more flak than he deserves given what he's been able to do and the restrictions under which he normally has to operate. This off-season ranks right up there with mid-season '98 when he pulled off the Piazza coup. As for the owners - I'm not sure that much is done "jointly" with those two, no matter what they'd have us think, because they've never been able to agree on much. Whatever the case, I do think that with $95 million - a very reasonable sum - to work with, they could've gotten more for their money. There have been some questionable financial moves made in recent years and the majority of them can be traced to Fred Wilpon's desire to fund a new stadium. At least, that's the chorus that keeps getting repeated every time a "penny pinching" type move is made. If that's not the case, as I've indicated in this and other threads, I'd be more than happy to be proven wrong. Like soldier's in the winter's night with a vow to defend No retreat and baby...NO SURRENDER! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Wide BeeGee Stanley Jefferson  OF, 1986 Posts: 143 (12/16/01 4:42 pm) Re: So I'm sittin' there minding my own business...
Like what?
Chorus? What are you talking about?
Guilty until proven innocent, I see. Why don't you just admit you're out of your depth on this subject UNTIL you can prove something? Edited by: Wide BeeGee at: 12/16/01 3:43:38 pm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ms Met II Tony Phillips  OF, 1998 Posts: 246 (12/17/01 10:54 am) Re: So I'm sittin' there minding my own business... Uh, with all due respect YGB, I've stated several times that my take on Mr. Wilpon is my opinion and the last time I looked I was entitled to my own opinion, whether or not you and others here agree with it. As I said, I'd be more than happy to be proven wrong, but, with the exception of bill metsiac, all anyone here has done is challenge my right to my opinion rather than offer any proof to counter it. If you want to prove me wrong, be my guest, but stop trying to deny me the right to my own opinion. Like soldier's in the winter's night with a vow to defend No retreat and baby...NO SURRENDER! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ metsmarathon Kevin Brown, RP, 1990 Posts: 198 (12/17/01 11:10 am) Re: So I'm sittin' there minding my own business... just to jump in here, but im more comfortable with the burden of proof being on the one with the differing opinion. or really on the one with the opinion. otherwise it gets too easy to just say, 'thats my opinion, and it doesnt matter why i made it, or for whatever willy-nilly reasons.' ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ms Met II Gene Walter  RP, 1987-1988 Posts: 250 (12/17/01 11:25 am) Re: So I'm sittin' there minding my own business... Well, I'm sorry mm, but I don't have a list of names and dates or anything else that anyone here would likely accept as proof. I know that I've read many things over the last several years which have stated that Wilpon was focused on the new stadium and I know that I've watched this team go the budget route instead of going after big names like ARod, Gonzalez, Giambi, etc. will little real explanation except for Wilpon's continued chorus of "we're sticking to our present budget". I also know that all the reports around the time of the Piazza signing had Nelson Doubleday pushing Steve Phillips to get it done and Fred Wilpon balking at the cost. Obviously, any or all of these reports could be wrong, and I could be wrong for believing them, but as I said, I have yet to see anything to the contrary. If you want anything more specific, I'm afraid I can't furnish it, which I'm sure makes me wrong as far as most folks are concerned. So be it. Like soldier's in the winter's night with a vow to defend No retreat and baby...NO SURRENDER! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Edgy DC II ezOP Posts: 669 (12/17/01 12:20 pm) Re: So I'm sittin' there minding my own business... Nobody gave A-Rod to the Rangers on any kind of platter. They are paying dearly for him and will continue to. They can have him. Walter, how come you let him hit it? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Wide BeeGee Allen Watson  RP, SP, 1999 Posts: 153 (12/17/01 12:28 pm) Re: So I'm sittin' there minding my own business... That's all well and good except very little in your statement here is true:
So?
First of all you've already said in this thread that 95 million is appropriate for this team. How is that the "budget route"? How do you know we won't go after Gonzalez? More importanly, how do you know we NEED to? Giambi wasn't pursued because we don't need a first baseman/DH nor a bidding war with the @#%$. Is that not a "real" explanation? Arod cost too much, but why not ask Doubleday to be sure.
Yet, we went and did it anyway and ... imagine ... we find that money's tight. It's possible that Wilpon felt that spreading out that sum over several players would be the better option. Using your argument it would seem that Doubleday is the one saying "Who cares about winning, we have a star attraction."
Yes you have. You've seen dozens of challenges to your line of thought on this subject from a number of reasonable people. You should also be aware of the oft-repeated statements from SP that Fred could give him flexibility in the event he needed it ~ which to this point, SP hasn't yet.
You're wrong not because you can't produce proof -- you're wrong because you made up your mind absent of it, or at least without considering all that is available. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Norrin Radd Alberto Castillo  C, 1995-1998 Posts: 101 (12/17/01 12:31 pm) Re: So I'm sittin' there minding my own business... what da wide man said... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Kasey62 Andy Hassler  RP, SP, 1979 Posts: 232 (12/17/01 12:33 pm) Re: So I'm sittin' there minding my own business... Ms. Met's gonna gag on her toast again when she reads this Well I just wanna have some fun I probably won't see no money I just wanna have some fun 'fore they throw me in the sanitarium ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ms Met II Gene Walter  RP, 1987-1988 Posts: 253 (12/17/01 3:00 pm) Re: So I'm sittin' there minding my own business... I'm not gonna gag, KC, 'cause I ain't reading it. I've said what I have to say, I don't expect YGB or many others here to accept it. I should've known better than to open my mouth in the first place, but I thought this was a board built on the notion of respect and open-mindedness. Guess I should've known better! And edgy - yes, you're right, the Rangers payed dearly for ARod and I'm not shedding tear one over that whole episode, I only offered it as one of many instances where the Mets were generally thought to be front-runners for a big name FA and blew off the opportunity for whatever reason. I was challenged to give proof - that was as good as I could give. I'm sorry if it doesn't live up to the standards of some here. Like soldier's in the winter's night with a vow to defend No retreat and baby...NO SURRENDER! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Kasey62 Tony Phillips  OF, 1998 Posts: 244 (12/17/01 3:11 pm) Re: So I'm sittin' there minding my own business... Hey, no pouting, Edgy edicted it last week. Well I just wanna have some fun I probably won't see no money I just wanna have some fun 'fore they throw me in the sanitarium ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ms Met II Gene Walter  RP, 1987-1988 Posts: 256 (12/17/01 3:32 pm) Re: So I'm sittin' there minding my own business... Pouting? Who's pouting? Believe me, KC, you'd know if I was pouting...I pout much better than that! I was annoyed - I don't suppose edgy's got an edict about THAT, does he? Like soldier's in the winter's night with a vow to defend No retreat and baby...NO SURRENDER! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Willets Point Ray Searage  RP, 1981 Posts: 332 (12/17/01 3:34 pm) Re: So I'm sittin' there minding my own business... Ms. Met...deeeeeeep cleansing breath. In the nose, out the mouth. Reeeeelax. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Wide BeeGee Fernando Viña  2B, 3B, SS, OF, 1994 Posts: 161 (12/17/01 3:35 pm) Re: So I'm sittin' there minding my own business... And thank you for showing the "respect and open-mindedness" it would take to address the points. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ms Met II Gene Walter  RP, 1987-1988 Posts: 258 (12/17/01 3:38 pm) Re: So I'm sittin' there minding my own business... Thanks, O, I really needed that! The funny thing is, I was in a pretty good mood this morning, until I checked in here. Usually visiting here makes me feel BETTER, not worse. I'll keep working on those deep breaths.... Like soldier's in the winter's night with a vow to defend No retreat and baby...NO SURRENDER!
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| Centerfield May 08 2007 07:32 PM |
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CookieMom
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| Centerfield May 08 2007 07:35 PM |
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Salamander Q
MM: And my issue is with your assuming that anyone who forms an opinion you don't agree with knows nothing. You have no more knolwedge of the topic than I do, so what the hell makes you so intellectually superior?
MM: Except that I know "next to nothing" because I don't deign to agree with you. You have no problem deciding that. I tried to give you what you want - a considered response to your points. I thought I could expect the same in return - guess I was asking for too much. Like soldier's in the winter's night with a vow to defend No retreat and baby...NO SURRENDER!
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| Frayed Knot May 08 2007 08:16 PM |
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That LF guy was always such a fucking troublemaker.
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| Centerfield May 08 2007 08:38 PM |
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It's funny how you sum up her entire posting career with that one line.
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