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Someone tell me if this is factually incorrect

iramets May 19 2007 04:33 PM

“It makes no difference what job you may have years from now: never give up,” Randolph said. “If I had given up, I would not be at Shea Stadium. If I had listened to the critics along the way, who knows where I might have wound up? I went on 11 managerial job interviews and was rejected on each one of them and it was their loss. The excuses were different, but the message was the same: ‘No job for Willie Randolph.’ ” Did Randolph not turn down the Cincinnati job that was offered to him because he wanted more money? How is that being 'rejected"? He may have been within to ask for more money, but isnt that him rejecting Cincy, not they him?

iramets May 19 2007 04:36 PM

Also is he classifying the Mets as one of those organizations that lost out, when they ended up hiring Art Howe? I'd be interested in a specific rundown of these 11 organizations.

SteveJRogers May 19 2007 04:37 PM Re: Someone tell me if this is factually incorrect

iramets wrote: “It makes no difference what job you may have years from now: never give up,” Randolph said. “If I had given up, I would not be at Shea Stadium. If I had listened to the critics along the way, who knows where I might have wound up? I went on 11 managerial job interviews and was rejected on each one of them and it was their loss. The excuses were different, but the message was the same: ‘No job for Willie Randolph.’ ” Did Randolph not turn down the Cincinnati job that was offered to him because he wanted more money? How is that being 'rejected"? He may have been within to ask for more money, but isnt that him rejecting Cincy, not they him? The generally accepted story seems that it was an insultingly low offer, so it goes on the "Cincy probably didn't want him anyway and figured he'd decline the offer"

SteveJRogers May 19 2007 04:39 PM

iramets wrote: Also is he classifying the Mets as one of those organizations that lost out, when they ended up hiring Art Howe? I'd be interested in a specific rundown of these 11 organizations. Yes, AFAIK that the 11 organizations number was used right around the time he was looked at by the Mets back in 2004

iramets May 19 2007 04:46 PM

I'll be interested in seeing that list. I didn't say it wasnt a low offer, I said in fact that it was. But a low offer isn't being "rejected." He's re-writing history, and you're letting him get away with with it. “Last year we came very close to the coveted prize in our sport, the World Series. We were one swing shy of getting to the big dance — Carlos, swing the bat, please,” Randolph joked, referring to how Mets center fielder Carlos Beltrán took a third strike to end Game 7 of the league championship series against the Cardinals last October. “But the beauty is that last year was history and we have the opportunity this year to exceed our accomplishments. I encourage you all to remember that as you achieve great things in life, you always have the opportunity to go further and do better and make more impact, no matter what your situation in life. Don’t fall into a place of complacency and satisfaction.” This is pretty banal stuff: "last year was history "? No shit, Sherlock. This is inspirational? It's insipid. It's pap, punctuated by drivel. "Be---ALL-that- you-can-be! Join the Arm-my!"

metsguyinmichigan May 19 2007 04:55 PM

I know I'm fairly new here, but I can't figure out the back story here. Did Willie run over Iramets' puppy or something?

SteveJRogers May 19 2007 04:58 PM

Probably either Yankee hating blinders on, or just not a Willie Randolph fan, especially when he talks in athlete-speak

iramets May 19 2007 05:48 PM

metsguyinmichigan wrote: I know I'm fairly new here, but I can't figure out the back story here. Did Willie run over Iramets' puppy or something? I just happen to think Willie's underqualified to reason his way out of the paper bag I wish he'd wear over his head. "we have the opportunity this year to exceed our accomplishments. I encourage you all to remember that"--do Fordham grads really need to be encouraged to remember that as long as they have a pulse they can accomplish shit? Now, if Willie had read a notice from the Commisioner saying "Dear Mr. Randolph, last year, the Mets accomplished too much,especially in view of your intellectual capacities, and I hereby enjoin your team from winning as many games in 2007 as they had in 2006" that imght be informing the grads of something useful, but to say that he is NOT so enjoined--does anyone else need a nap here? BOO-O-O-O-O-O-ORING! Did he really work on this drivel for two weeks, with critiques from Jay Horwitz to help him out? I could write a more inspirational speech before I've got my underwear on in the morning.

RealityChuck May 19 2007 08:40 PM

ira's issue is that Willie doesn't do everything by the Holy Book of Sabermetrics. He is a heathen and refuses to bow down to the icon of Bill James. He actually makes moves that don't match the Holy Writ. This cannot go on, because it mocks the church of Sabermetrics and might give people the impression that their entire edifice is an intellectually dishonest fraud. Thus, Willie must be stopped at any costs!

Rockin' Doc May 19 2007 09:16 PM

Well there is that, but I think ira just enjoys a good argument.

Gwreck May 19 2007 10:16 PM

Criticizing Randolph's speech based on selected quotes read in a newspaper account is at best disingenuous. -- P.S. Adding a question mark in brackets to a cherrypicked quote is dubious. Was Wilpon guilty of poor word choice? Probably. Do you have a sincere belief that all he wants to do is have players avoid positive tests, rather than simply not use Perf. enhancing drugs? Do you have anything other than an implication to bring that up? From an AP article, 5/18/07, ([url=http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2874146]Link[/url] "Not to stop the positive tests but to educate the kids so they know what they're doing to their bodies and they know that besides being illegal and against the rules, that it's not good for them," Wilpon said. "They don't need to do it."

martin May 20 2007 02:01 AM

i hope none of the graduates were disillusioned. one thing that deserves even less scrutiny than post-game press conferences is platitude-laden graduation speeches.

iramets May 20 2007 05:01 AM

No one's helping me clarify how Randolph turning down the Reds' offer was an example of them rejecting him. I'd like to hear him tell those undergrads that a six-figure offer is grossly insulting, right out of the box. And, Martin, there's no rule that all graduation speeches have to be empty, platitude-laden, full of mistatements, etc. (Good description of WIllie's speech, that he labored over for two weeks and got help on, though.) I've heard some that were actually inspiring and clever. Of course, those were spoken by people of accomplishment, most of whom actually deserved the honorary doctorate.

Kid Carsey May 20 2007 07:27 AM

ira: >>>Did Randolph not turn down the Cincinnati job that was offered to him because he wanted more money? How is that being 'rejected"? He may have been within to ask for more money, but isnt that him rejecting Cincy, not they him?<<< The way you word your questions is just as dishonest and sneaky as you try to paint the guy who ran over the said puppy. Being low-balled certainly is a form of rejection. If Cincy didn't want him around, a black manager *gasp*, they may have been avoiding finger pointing if outright passing on him and offering him a job at a discount they knew he wouldn't take. *Cue Clyde and Keith* REJECTED! Just one theory, but it's certainly more believable than everything that comes out the man's mouth is a lie and he should be stopped at all costs by this forum and I'm gonna keep going on about it until all your heads ex- plode and everyone quits and goes home quietly with their tails between their legs so there. Sheesh, find another hobby already. Pretty please with sugar on top?

iramets May 20 2007 08:02 AM

="Kid Carsey"] Being low-balled certainly is a form of rejection. If Cincy didn't want him around, a black manager *gasp*, they may have been avoiding finger pointing if outright passing on him and offering him a job at a discount they knew he wouldn't take.? Oh, please. If Willie (and Joe Morgan, another habitual liar) wanted to give those evil Cincinnati racists a shitfit all he had to do was say, "Fine," sign their lousy insulting offer (for more money than you and I and Dickshot and Frayed Knot and Edgy and Vic Sage and Original JB will ever earn put together in our best year) and then quit the first time they treated him demeaningly in public. Instead he turns them down, hints subtly that they made him a racist offer, and gets full kudos (when he wants it) for not being offered a job in the first place. He came off as a prickly little asshole, no doubt, in his interview, spouting "winner" this and "Yankee" that, full of himself, with zero track record, and he's astonished that people don't want to pay him what a winner-Yankee-experienced manager would get? Nervy little twerp, I'd say. If I were the Cncy GM, offering him a job and he started getting holier-than-thou with me, I'd start thinking about becoming a 'racist' too.

SteveJRogers May 20 2007 08:23 AM

Then again the Mets really wanted Pete Rose and Vladimir Guerrero when they made the two most famous lowballs in their history with free agency. Not to mention there was a segment of Met fandom who thought the Mets should have given ARod and Boras the oppertunity to turn them down rather than Phillips' "24 and 1" speech.

Johnny Dickshot May 20 2007 09:01 AM

iramets wrote: And, Martin, there's no rule that all graduation speeches have to be empty, platitude-laden, full of mistatements, etc. (Good description of WIllie's speech, that he labored over for two weeks and got help on, though.) I've heard some that were actually inspiring and clever. Of course, those were spoken by people of accomplishment, most of whom actually deserved the honorary doctorate. Publish them, then we'll scruitize.

iramets May 20 2007 09:21 AM

This one is pretty [url=http://mccain.senate.gov/press_office/view_article.cfm?id=1002] good[/url]

iramets May 20 2007 09:30 AM

Here's a pretty [url=http://news-service.stanford.edu/news/2006/june21/broktext-062106.html] effective[/url] one, albeit by a lying, Met-hating journalist, that touches on the the strugle for civil rights in a non-aggrieved and moving way.

Johnny Dickshot May 20 2007 09:37 AM

Did you know my uncle was one of McCain's roommates at the Naval Academy? He would attest to his academic and disciplinary shortcomings.

iramets May 20 2007 09:38 AM

Here's [url=http://web.jhu.edu/president/commencement/2006.html] one[/url], like Willie's, on the theme of persistence and hard work, somewhat more eloquent, and (I suspect) written by someone who didn't have the benefit of Jay Horwitz's criticism and editorial suggestions. So is that enough for you to scrutinize, or would you like more?

iramets May 20 2007 09:39 AM

Johnny Dickshot wrote: Did you know my uncle was one of McCain's roommates at the Naval Academy? He would attest to his academic and disciplinary shortcomings. No idea. McCain does a pretty fair job of attesting himself. Here's [url=http://college.georgetown.edu/alumni/gradarchives/address2006.html] one[/url] by a fellow of Willie Randolph's age, approximately, someone I attended college with briefly, that puts things into some kind of perspective.

Johnny Dickshot May 20 2007 09:48 AM

McCain is clueless, not a liar I guess.

iramets May 20 2007 09:54 AM

This isn't about Willie being a liar or clueless, just a totally inappropriate Commencement speaker. Of course, he sprinkles some lies and dopey stuff in there, but that's just him, he can't help that. It's who he is.

iramets May 20 2007 09:59 AM

Gwreck wrote: Criticizing Randolph's speech based on selected quotes read in a newspaper account is at best disingenuous. -- P.S. Adding a question mark in brackets to a cherrypicked quote is dubious. Was Wilpon guilty of poor word choice? Probably. Do you have a sincere belief that all he wants to do is have players avoid positive tests, rather than simply not use Perf. enhancing drugs? Do you have anything other than an implication to bring that up? From an AP article, 5/18/07, ([url=http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2874146]Link[/url] Are you fucking kidding me here, Gwreck? It's not fair to assume that the newspaper article cherrypicked Willie's BEST quotes? I'm supposed to assume that they took his mistakes and deliberately printed those, out of context, making him an easier target? And you think I misrepresented Jeffy's quote by attaching a question mark to a question? I did him more harm by capitalizing the letter "C" because his question was in the middle of a sentence. You really have it bad if you're this desperate to point out my unfairness in picking on poor old dumb Willie like this.

iramets May 20 2007 03:13 PM

Actually I noticed that the JHU site (the one atthe top of this page) has links to several past Commencement speeches, all by the President of JHU, all pretty damned good. Read the 2004 one, especially the part about Tom Clancy, and tell me that it doesn't move you in a way that Willie's entire talk didn't begin to. I'm not so much trying to put the knock on Willie's ability to make an inspiring speech here (that's just too easy) but to knock him for thinking that making such a speech is within his capacities. Coming up with content is challenging enough--do we really need another successful athlete/sports figure to remind us about "never giving up"*?--but to speak about meaningful content with rhetorical ability is just staggering difficult. If you were told that you'd have a chance to play second base in a big league game, would you necessarily say "Yes"? I know it's a big thrill, and all you'll have to do make relatively short throws and catch groundballs, but it would be so humiliating an experience for everyone on this site, that I suspect we'd all turn it down out of a strong sense that we have no business out on the field in a MLB game. That's what I'm faulting WIllie for here, lacking the sense that God gave a kitten that he was WAY over his head here. *"Never give up, never surrender"--stupid cliched motto uttered by Tim Allen, all through GALAXY QUEST. Also in WR's speech yesterday.

Gwreck May 20 2007 03:33 PM

How much (total quantity) of Randolph's speech have you actually heard or read? 15 sentences? 20? 25?

iramets May 20 2007 04:41 PM

Gwreck wrote: How much (total quantity) of Randolph's speech have you actually heard or read? 15 sentences? 20? 25? You don't have to eat a whole shit pie to know it contains shit. What I've read, I've commented on. If you're suggesting that what's been excerpted doesn't reflect fully the intricate depths of Willie's mind, then please provide more samples. Usually, as I note, the excerpts are of the more substantial passages, not the least.

iramets May 21 2007 08:06 AM

Johnny Dickshot wrote: ="iramets"] And, Martin, there's no rule that all graduation speeches have to be empty, platitude-laden, full of mistatements, etc. (Good description of WIllie's speech, that he labored over for two weeks and got help on, though.) I've heard some that were actually inspiring and clever. Of course, those were spoken by people of accomplishment, most of whom actually deserved the honorary doctorate. Publish them, then we'll scruitize. So? Where's the scrutiny?

Kid Carsey May 21 2007 09:12 AM

The sad thing is Willie's feel good story of his parents being cotton pickers without a nickle to their names find themselves in the NYC projects and their kid becomes a success TWICE and four of his kids have now graduated col- lege. I mean, how someone can poison that story because he thinks his speech making skills don't rival that of a congressman and a university executive. It is just plain mind boggling. Smell the roses big fella, life's too short for all this hatred.

iramets May 21 2007 01:30 PM

I didn't say it wasn't a nice story. It is. But he has no business giving a speech that is intended to educate, to inspire, to make graduates ponder. He simply isn't equipped, as I felt he wouldn't be before Saturday's little talk and much more so after hearing what he had to say. When some CPFers informed me that such speeches uniformly suck anyway and can I supply examples of good commencement speeches, I gave some good examples and can give them hundreds more. By all means, feel good about Willie's accomplishments. Just don't ask me to sit through his fumbling, bumbling, mumbling accounts of them, nor any kid of mine or any other human being for whom I have a shred of sympathy or respect.

Benjamin Grimm May 21 2007 01:42 PM

It was a nine minute speech. If he had droned on for an hour and a half, then yes, it would probably have been a human rights violation or something like that. But at nine minutes, it couldn't have been that unendurable. Anyone who makes it through four years of college has learned to sit through much longer periods of boredom.

Centerfield May 21 2007 01:50 PM Re: Someone tell me if this is factually incorrect

iramets wrote: “It makes no difference what job you may have years from now: never give up,” Randolph said. “If I had given up, I would not be at Shea Stadium. If I had listened to the critics along the way, who knows where I might have wound up? I went on 11 managerial job interviews and was rejected on each one of them and it was their loss. The excuses were different, but the message was the same: ‘No job for Willie Randolph.’ ” Did Randolph not turn down the Cincinnati job that was offered to him because he wanted more money? How is that being 'rejected"? He may have been within to ask for more money, but isnt that him rejecting Cincy, not they him? If Willie had listed his compensation requirements up front, than an offer coming in below that could constitute a rejection. Alternatively, if Willie had countered Cincy's offer and Cincy declined, that could also be seen as a rejection. So technically, Willie might be speaking the truth here. Of course, I realize that the impression meant to be conveyed by that statement is that Willie went on 11 interviews and that none resulted in a job offer, which, if the Cincy report is true, is not accurate. But I think this would fall under "spinning" the truth (conveying technically true statements in a misleading manner) rather than re-writing history (making up things altogether). One can see that he is editorializing in his next sentence regarding "excuses". Any discerning listener would realize that sometimes, there are no excuses, there are just reasons. And some clubs might have passed on Willie because they felt he was not qualified for valid and legitimate reasons. But are graduations speeches meant to be held to such a level of scrutiny? Aren't generalizations and embellishments of truth allowed in speeches to convey a positive message? If we get technical, we can shoot down Willie's entire message of hard work and persistence. Sometimes it leads to great things. Other times, it results in fruitless chases of unattainable goals and wasting of valuable time that could have been spent on more modest, more attainable ventures. Even Brody says in his address that "focus, determination, and hard work is what makes all the difference." That's not technically true either. Sometimes the difference is having a rich dad who knows everybody and can make things happen for you even though you're a moron. Sometimes all the focus and determination won't make a lick of difference if your competitor is willing to blow the boss after-hours. I fully expect Willie's speech to suck. Most graduation speeches suck and Willie never struck me as very articulate anyway. But I don't think it sucked any more than regular sucky graduation speeches.

iramets May 21 2007 03:12 PM Re: Someone tell me if this is factually incorrect

Centerfield wrote: If Willie had listed his compensation requirements up front, than an offer coming in below that could constitute a rejection. Alternatively, if Willie had countered Cincy's offer and Cincy declined, that could also be seen as a rejection. So technically, Willie might be speaking the truth here. Of course, I realize that the impression meant to be conveyed by that statement is that Willie went on 11 interviews and that none resulted in a job offer, which, if the Cincy report is true, is not accurate. But I think this would fall under "spinning" the truth (conveying technically true statements in a misleading manner) rather than re-writing history (making up things altogether). One can see that he is editorializing in his next sentence regarding "excuses". Any discerning listener would realize that sometimes, there are no excuses, there are just reasons. And some clubs might have passed on Willie because they felt he was not qualified for valid and legitimate reasons. But are graduations speeches meant to be held to such a level of scrutiny? Aren't generalizations and embellishments of truth allowed in speeches to convey a positive message? If we get technical, we can shoot down Willie's entire message of hard work and persistence. Sometimes it leads to great things. Other times, it results in fruitless chases of unattainable goals and wasting of valuable time that could have been spent on more modest, more attainable ventures. Even Brody says in his address that "focus, determination, and hard work is what makes all the difference." That's not technically true either. Sometimes the difference is having a rich dad who knows everybody and can make things happen for you even though you're a moron. Sometimes all the focus and determination won't make a lick of difference if your competitor is willing to blow the boss after-hours. I fully expect Willie's speech to suck. Most graduation speeches suck and Willie never struck me as very articulate anyway. But I don't think it sucked any more than regular sucky graduation speeches. It did. Because some commencement addresses are brilliant, inspiring, tear-producing, and some are just okay. Willie's was less than okay. He didn't say anything criminal, immoral, or dangerous, but basically that's because he didn't say much of anything. When you're not facing hostile questioning, which is Willie's main excuse for why he spins shit to Mike and Chris or Wally Matthews or whomever, and you have two weeks to work on it, with Jay Horwitz to help you out, I kinda think you shouldn't just come close to approximating the truth in nine minutes of blather. But people willing to make excuses for Willie, people willing to bend over double-backwards to spin reasons why his speech doesn't technically qualify as godawful piffle that the cat spews out every day, well, I have no risposte other than De gustibus non disputandum, which translates into YMMV.

martin May 22 2007 01:46 PM

iramets wrote: Just don't ask me to sit through his fumbling, bumbling, mumbling accounts of them if somebody forces you to sit through a speech of his, let me know and i will punch that person in the stomach.

iramets May 22 2007 01:53 PM

Well, if I were at Fordham's commencement, I wouldn't really have that much choice, would I? Those poor kids deserved a real Commencement speaker is my point.

Benjamin Grimm May 22 2007 02:03 PM

I think if I were in the audience I'd be more pleased by the fact that it only ran nine minutes than I would be annoyed by whatever it lacked of quality content. I don't remember a thing that Mario Cuomo said when I graduated, and I tried to listen and pay attention, because at that point (1985) he still was a possible future president.

Johnny Dickshot May 22 2007 02:14 PM

Recently dead journalist Ed Bradley spoke at my graduation. I remember his central message -- "history is impoirtant" but not another word. If the kids graduating were anything like me they were thrilled just to be there.

Willets Point May 22 2007 02:20 PM

George Bush spoke at my graduation. He basically said "kinder, gentler" nation, "1000 points of light," and told a joke about long speeches. I was appreciative that his speech was short.

Nymr83 May 22 2007 02:26 PM

which Bush? Everyone hates long speeches, I was glad mine was short, the rain probably helped with that (it was outside in a light rain.)

Edgy DC May 22 2007 02:30 PM

I assume Bush I, who used ""kinder, gentler nation" and "1000 points of light" as cornerstone themes of his campaign. If he said "compassionate conservative" and "whiff of freedom," then I'd guess Bushie II.