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Defensive Strategy Qs

Frayed Knot May 29 2007 09:10 PM

* The Set-up: 1st & 3rd, tie game in extra innings at home, 1 out and decent but not great speed at 3rd * The Play: Hard one-hopper to 1st practically on the bag; should Carlos have? 1) Gone to 2nd then to 1st for the 3-6-3 DP, knowing that it you don't pull it off the go-ahead scores 2) Stepped on 1st then went to 2nd for the tag, knowing that it's a timing play at that point betweent he tag and the runner coming home 3) Stepped on 1st and gone home, figuring that getting the sure out kills the big inning and you may get both outs w/o a run scoring 4) Gone home immediately for the tag play, figuring that it's the surest way to cut off the run but knowing you'll still need to get another out with two on Make your choice and state your case

Nymr83 May 29 2007 09:16 PM

if you KNOW the 3-6-3 will work do it, otherwise i'd go straight home only if you KNOW thats an out, if not i'd step on first and throw for whichever out i think i can get, i think delgado did the right thing.

Frayed Knot May 29 2007 09:17 PM

Choice #2 is def out, and I like both 3 & 4 better than 1. My instant reaction (which is all the player has after all) was that #3 (1st then home) was the best because he was so close to the bag to start with.

dinosaur jesus May 29 2007 09:22 PM

I say 4: go home first and try for the 3-2-3 double play. It looks like stepping on first cost him a tiny bit of time, just enough to let the run score. And after that I'd say 3: what he did. It damn near worked, and the throw home looked easier than the throw to second.

Rockin' Doc May 29 2007 09:23 PM

Having thought about this play, I believe Delgado played it properly. He took the sure out and had a shot at the plate. By doing so he helped to avoid a big inning for the Giants. 1) Gone to 2nd then to 1st for the 3-6-3 DP, knowing that it you don't pull it off the go-ahead scores Watching the replay, I wish he had opted for the 3-6-3 doubleplay. Unfortunately, Carlos didn't have the benefit of a replay, he had to react quickly so I can't fault him for not gambling on the DP. Winn runs well which likely factored into his decision. 2) Stepped on 1st then went to 2nd for the tag, knowing that it's a timing play at that point betweent he tag and the runner coming home This really isn't much of an option. Though I think they would have likely turned the DP, Vizquel would have easily scored before the tag was made at second. 3) Stepped on 1st and gone home, figuring that getting the sure out kills the big inning and you may get both outs w/o a run scoring Ultimately, I think he played it properly. 4) Gone home immediately for the tag play, figuring that it's the surest way to cut off the run but knowing you'll still need to get another out with two on Had he gone to home immediately, he may have got Vizquel, but it wasn't an automatic by any means.

Johnny Dickshot May 29 2007 09:25 PM

I had no issue with Delgado's choice there. Had the game ended that way it'd been a case of the degree-of-difficulty play made and the one not made. We got pretty lucky tonight.

Frayed Knot May 29 2007 09:27 PM

After watching the replay I'll stick with my choice. The way the ball was hit and where he was positioned (holding on the runner) he could barely have thrown home any quicker without stepping on 1st than he could have by doing so.

Edgy DC May 29 2007 09:35 PM

4-1-3-2. Actually, 4-1-3, as 2 just has no respect for the mortality of the situation. I also think 2-3-2 has no chance. You go straight home, you do it respecting that the go-ahead run still ends up at second if Lo Duca makes the tag.

Benjamin Grimm May 30 2007 07:53 AM

I don't think that tapping first with his foot delayed him significantly. He could easily have thrown home immediately and had the runner called safe. Then there's only one out and an extra runner on base. It could easily have become a two or three run inning after that. Delgado got an easy out, and still had a shot at an inning-ending double play. It (the half inning) didn't work out as well as we would have liked, but it turned out better than it could have been. I too think he made the right move.

Edgy DC May 30 2007 08:00 AM

Yancy Street Gang wrote: I don't think that tapping first with his foot delayed him significantly. He could easily have thrown home immediately and had the runner called safe. I don't know. Just because his movements were fluid doesn't mean time wasn't lost. We all saw how close that play at home was. The beat (or half a beat) lost counted.

iramets May 30 2007 08:03 AM

I think you've got to try for the 3-6-3. Why? Let's make believe no one's on third. The play you're describing is then a gift from God, a sure (as can be) DP ball, that you get better than 9 times out of 10, and the inning's over. The runner on third is just a distraction, something to complicate the process of your brain and take your mind off the simple truth: the game depends on your executing a routine DP ball. Just do it. Worst case scenario, you're a run behind with an inning left to catch up or even go ahead. If you can't pull off a clean DP ball without screwing something up, then you deserve to be behind, because the upside to that play is so big.

Edgy DC May 30 2007 08:10 AM

I agree to an extent, but I remain concerned that the 3-6-3 isn't so automatic with the shortstop coming across perpendicular to the bag (having been positioned in), rather than receiving the throw from an approach behind the bag.

soupcan May 30 2007 08:16 AM

On the postgame Carlos said he would've gone home first but his momentum had him going towards the first base bag so it was literally his first step after he got the ball. When Randolph was asked the same questions that FK posed he said that Carlos did the right thing. One reporter asked Willie if Delgado should've thrown to second after touching first and Willie's eyes basically bugged out of his head and he looked at the guy like he was a complete idiot all the while saying/insinuating that it was painfully obvious to anyone who knew anything about the sport that there was no way they were going to get that out at second.

seawolf17 May 30 2007 08:16 AM

I think he made the right play. If he goes home and throws the ball to the backstop, then it's 2nd-3rd, one out and one run already in. Get the out; if Winn is a hair slower, it's a DP. In any other inning, maybe you go to second first... and if the bases are loaded, then you throw home first... but in that case, I think it's the right play.

iramets May 30 2007 08:21 AM

Nymr83 wrote: if you KNOW the 3-6-3 will work do it, otherwise i'd go straight home only if you KNOW thats an out, if not i'd step on first and throw for whichever out i think i can get, i think delgado did the right thing. You never KNOW anything in baseball. If you did only the plays you KNOW are going to work, you'll never try for a DP and you'll never take an extra base, and you'll lose 100 games minimum. That's crappy thinking. The runner on first, the one you're focused on getting here in the absence of KNOWledge, is meaningless. If you just get him, then you're a run behind with a runner on second base, and you're still not out of the inning. That's a pretty bad spot to be in. I'm not quite following Edgy's point about the shortstop's positioning--are you saying that there was something there making the DP not the routine DP I'm thinking it was? I'm not clear on what "perpendicular" means here. Perpendicular to what?

iramets May 30 2007 08:23 AM

soupcan wrote: When Randolph was asked the same questions that FK posed he said that Carlos did the right thing. Shock me. As Toasty Joe says, when Willie is asked if one his players did the right thing, his answer always rhymes with "I thrust my thighs."

Centerfield May 30 2007 08:24 AM

My first instinct was that Delgado should have thrown home. In a situation where you have the infield in, you're not looking to get the sure out...you're looking to cut off that run. Had he gone immediately home that might have been the difference. Reading Sal's explanation makes a lot of sense though. I'm brain cramping right now over who the batter was, but Delgado has to take that into account before the ball is hit. On Edit: The replay of Vizquel coming down the line was weird. He broke on contact, slowed up, then started took off again. I'm wondering if his slowing up was when he saw Delgado go to the bag. I wonder if he had made an immediate move home, whether Vizquel would have gone at all.

Edgy DC May 30 2007 08:27 AM

Shortstop is positioned on the lip of the grass, so his approach to the bag takes him invariably toward right center, making him an easier target for a takeout because he has to pause and rotate before relaying back to first and won't necessarily have an opportunity to jump. This is why a manager has to choose whether to bring the infield in or leave them at "DP depth" and often compromise by bringing the corners in and leaving the shortstop and secondbaseman behind the bag. Willie didn't compromise. HIs positioning committed the infielders to go for the runner coming home, so that's what they should have gone for.