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Green and Gonzalez (Split from 6/12 IGT)

Edgy DC Jun 12 2007 10:01 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jun 13 2007 08:06 AM

Shawn Green and Luis Gonzalez are the same guy, aren't they? Strike now.

bmfc1 Jun 13 2007 05:33 AM

"Shawn Green and Luis Gonzalez are the same guy, aren't they?" One took steroids, one did not.

Frayed Knot Jun 13 2007 06:56 AM

bmfc1 wrote: "Shawn Green and Luis Gonzalez ... One took steroids, one did not. If true, why isn't it obvious to me which one is which?

Edgy DC Jun 13 2007 08:03 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jun 13 2007 11:46 AM

Frayed Knot wrote: ="bmfc1"]"Shawn Green and Luis Gonzalez ... One took steroids, one did not. If true, why isn't it obvious to me which one is which? I wondered the same thing. One throws righthanded and one lefthanded. I was thinking sluggers with odd (but not unappealling) looks and loopy lefthanded swings who started their careers well ensconced in one place but then became journeymen kaboomers, spending time in LA and Arizona, and each having one monster season. (Green actually had two, but neither as monstrous as Gonzalez's one.) I think of both as indifferent corner outfielders who'd be better of at DH or first, but usually never had the situaiton right for that. Green is three years younger, but might finish with more homers if he hangs around near as long (certainly no guarantee). Player PA HR AVG OBP SLG OPS OPS+ Green 7665 323 .283 .356 .495 .854 121 Gonzalez 9859 339 .284 .368 .484 .852 121 Wow.

Rockin' Doc Jun 13 2007 11:10 AM

Pretty amazing just how similar their career numbers actually are. Good pick up, Edgy.

bmfc1 Jun 13 2007 11:36 AM

Edgy--I'm pretty sure that the Diamondbacks owner even speculated that Gonzalez took 'roids (of course, he said that as Gonzalez was leaving AZ--it didn't stop him from hiring him). "Gonzo" had one season of unprecedented numbers. In 2001, at age 33, long after a player's typical peak, he jumped from 31 HRs to 57. The next year, he was back at his norm of 28. Green had more years of sustained excellence and he was 29 or under at his prime (as is the norm). That's why, to me, you can separate the two.

Edgy DC Jun 13 2007 11:51 AM

Yes, there are distinctions, but regarding steroids, what you've got is speculation. Baseball history is full of guys who spiked one year --- Torre, Gooden, Davey Johnson. Steve Stone, Bobby Thigpen. Spike = Steroids is not a conclusion I wish to draw.

metirish Jun 13 2007 11:54 AM

I think Arizona treated Gonzo pretty bad,at least that GM at the time did,saying shit about him,nothing wrong with not wanting him back,just no need to insinuate they guy took steroids....at least that's how I remember it.

bmfc1 Jun 13 2007 11:59 AM

Given what we know now about the early part of this decade, combined with statistical data, makes it more than mere speculation for me. We're all free to draw our own conclusion.

Edgy DC Jun 13 2007 12:05 PM

"What we know" hardly puts Green in the clear. Of course we're free to draw our own conclusions, but you're stating opinion as fact.

bmfc1 Jun 13 2007 12:17 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jun 13 2007 12:24 PM

Edgy DC wrote: "What we know" hardly puts Green in the clear. Of course we're free to draw our own conclusions, but you're stating opinion as fact. Excuse me, but I'm not. If it appears I was, I did not intend to. I am looking at "A" + "B" and forming what I, and others, feel is a reasonable conclusion. If you disagree--and require a picture of a needle sticking out of his tushy--that's fine. No worries.

Edgy DC Jun 13 2007 12:23 PM

I meant to reply to bfmc1's post with "I don't" above by quoting him, but inadvertantly edited his post. I tried to accurately reconstruct it. I apologize for the mistake.

bmfc1 Jun 13 2007 12:25 PM

I noticed that error (we've seen too many errors of late!) and reconstructed what I wrote. I hope we can't edit the posts of others!

Edgy DC Jun 13 2007 12:33 PM

Only admins can. And, except in rare cases (posting of illegal or lawsuit-quality private information), I've only done it by accident, believe me. Sorry again.

bmfc1 Jun 13 2007 12:36 PM

No problem! LGM!

Frayed Knot Jun 13 2007 01:35 PM

My original response here was because I've heard both players publically speculated about (although I forgot about the Az front office statements) so, to me, one is no more obvious than the other. One-year wonders prove little (Maris never hit 40 aside from the year he hit 61) and I think that fans in general would probably have a pretty lousy track record of guessing who were/are and were not users outside of a few outlying exceptions.

iramets Jun 13 2007 01:38 PM

Are you saying that you're sure Maris didn't use steroids?

Vic Sage Jun 13 2007 02:55 PM

what's the general consensus on Brady Anderson? Liar or "outlyer"?

Nymr83 Jun 13 2007 03:11 PM

Anderson hit FIFTY at age 32 and never more than 24 other than that. his seasons were (starting at age 28, his first full year): 21, 13, 12, 16, 50, 18, 18, 24, 19, 8. that makes me REALLY suspect that something was up in 1996.

iramets Jun 13 2007 03:25 PM

Nymr83 wrote: Anderson hit FIFTY at age 32 and never more than 24 other than that. his seasons were (starting at age 28, his first full year): 21, 13, 12, 16, 50, 18, 18, 24, 19, 8. that makes me REALLY suspect that something was up in 1996. He's a fucking outlyng bastard, far as I'm concerned. Matter of fact, so is every ballplayer of the 1990 and 2000s until I'm shown otherwise. Don;'t why I should give any of them a pass on honesty or openness, when they all have a solid motivation to deceive when asked a straight question (see "Palmeiro Testicles Before Congress") and don't owe me anything.