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Carlos Gomez

Elster88 Jun 18 2007 07:41 PM

OBP still under .300 BA up to .262. If Reyes has taught us anything, he has taught us that plate discipline can be learned while not losing your agressiveness.

attgig Jun 18 2007 07:46 PM

but, of course Gomez got called up to the majors a few days before Ricky went to AAA for the sole purpose of helping Gomez out with his plate discipline and base running. perhaps the front office should've brought up someone else during that time.

Nymr83 Jun 18 2007 07:50 PM Re: Carlos Gomez

Elster88 wrote: OBP still under .300 BA up to .262. If Reyes has taught us anything, he has taught us that plate discipline can be learned while not losing your agressiveness. i do think Reyes was an extremely rare player in that regard.

Elster88 Jun 18 2007 07:51 PM Re: Carlos Gomez

Nymr83 wrote: ="Elster88"]OBP still under .300 BA up to .262. If Reyes has taught us anything, he has taught us that plate discipline can be learned while not losing your agressiveness. i do think Reyes was an extremely rare player in that regard. Do you have any justification for the feeling that guys with lots of raw talent who come to the majors around the age of 20 would rarely learn plate discipline? Because if you don't then it's hard to care.

Nymr83 Jun 18 2007 08:49 PM

if they didn't already have the discipline? i'll look into it if you give me a criteria to search.... how about players who a) started their major league careers at or before age 21 b) didn't walk much in the minors and at least their first 2 full seasons... and i'm checking to see how many improved significantly?

Elster88 Jun 20 2007 06:25 PM

That's not how it works. You gave the hypothesis. You prove it.

MFS62 Jun 20 2007 06:37 PM

Nymr83 wrote: if they didn't already have the discipline? i'll look into it if you give me a criteria to search.... how about players who a) started their major league careers at or before age 21 b) didn't walk much in the minors and at least their first 2 full seasons... and i'm checking to see how many improved significantly? Check out Roberto Clemente. His OBP for his first few years was terrible. Later

Nymr83 Jun 20 2007 06:38 PM

i'm not going to do a bunch of work just to have you say my criteria is flawed after the fact, if you'll agree to the criteria i provided, or provide your own, i'll do the work.

iramets Jun 20 2007 07:03 PM

MFS62 wrote: ="Nymr83"]if they didn't already have the discipline? i'll look into it if you give me a criteria to search.... how about players who a) started their major league careers at or before age 21 b) didn't walk much in the minors and at least their first 2 full seasons... and i'm checking to see how many improved significantly? Check out Roberto Clemente. His OBP for his first few years was terrible. Later You've made this point before, and I've tried to point out that Clemente increased his BA considerably after his first five or so years in the NL, but did not increase his OBP, apart from the BA, very much. His lifetime high in walks was about 55.

Elster88 Jun 20 2007 07:37 PM

Nymr83 wrote: i'm not going to do a bunch of work just to have you say my criteria is flawed after the fact, if you'll agree to the criteria i provided, or provide your own, i'll do the work. You made a statement. I point out that unless you have something to back it up then it your statement can't be taken seriously. Then you want me to come up with some "criteria" for you? Give me a break. Let's just leave it as you have nothing to back up your statement. Unless you're hiding some startling and undeniable evidence.

iramets Jun 20 2007 07:42 PM

Elster, he's not being a totally unreasonable prick here. His concern that you'll nitpick his results because he's come up with criteria of which you disapprove is reasonable, not because you're a nitpicking sonofabitch but because the selection of criteria is always subject to argument. Why not be big here, and come up with some provisional criteria, maybe even argue them back and forth with him for a few posts, and maybe you'll come up with some interesting results. It's not very interesting to read you calling him names and him calling you names. I can sit home and call myself an egotistical jerkoff for free.

Elster88 Jun 20 2007 07:43 PM

I didn't call him names. I pointed out his supposition without proof is not worth much. I'm not being an unreasonable prick either. If he's going to make a statement he should be prepared to back it up. It's not my job to do his homework for him. Edit: Please show where either of us did the name-calling.

Elster88 Jun 20 2007 07:50 PM

iramets wrote: ="MFS62"] ="Nymr83"]if they didn't already have the discipline? i'll look into it if you give me a criteria to search.... how about players who a) started their major league careers at or before age 21 b) didn't walk much in the minors and at least their first 2 full seasons... and i'm checking to see how many improved significantly? Check out Roberto Clemente. His OBP for his first few years was terrible. Later You've made this point before, and I've tried to point out that Clemente increased his BA considerably after his first five or so years in the NL, but did not increase his OBP, apart from the BA, very much. His lifetime high in walks was about 55. I know next to nothing about Clemente, but plate discipline improvement can also be demonstrated by a decrease in strikeouts, not just an increase in walks.

Edgy DC Jun 20 2007 08:48 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jun 21 2007 08:27 AM

Five people who tended to improve their IsOBP as major leaguers: Mookie Wilson, Barry Bonds, Oscar Gamble, Jack Clark, Robin Yount.

iramets Jun 21 2007 04:45 AM

Okay. I'm an egotistical jerkoff.

Rotblatt Jun 21 2007 05:40 AM

My perception has been that it's incredibly rare for a player to develop a good eye at the plate--that either they have it or they don't, although obviously, there are some exceptions. I seem to recall reading a lot of articles about this in relation to Oakland's OBP philosophy (players gain power, but they don't generally gain discipline, which makes discipline more valuable) and in terms of what to expect from Jose Reyes (he'll never be a .400 OBP guy because it just "never" happens). Sammy Sosa's come up a bit too as an example of someone who's improved, and I seem to remember the argument against that wasn't so much that Sosa developed plate discipline as pitchers began to pitch around him when he developed superstar power. I'm trying to find those articles now on BP & Hardball Times, but am having a hell of a time . . .

Edgy DC Jun 21 2007 08:32 AM

Certainly, an increase of power tends to bring about an increase in pitching around players. But there are also players for whom that hasn't worked. attgig wrote: but, of course Gomez got called up to the majors a few days before Ricky went to AAA for the sole purpose of helping Gomez out with his plate discipline and base running. Henderson is back with the big club.

iramets Jun 21 2007 09:01 AM

Edgy DC wrote: Certainly, an increase of power tends to bring about an increase in pitching around players. But there are also players for whom that hasn't worked. ="attgig"]but, of course Gomez got called up to the majors a few days before Ricky went to AAA for the sole purpose of helping Gomez out with his plate discipline and base running. Henderson is back with the big club. Thanks for clarifying which RickEy he was talking about. I thought he meant Ledee

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Nymr83 Jun 21 2007 10:55 AM

huh??

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Edgy DC Jun 21 2007 11:34 AM

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