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Biggio & Thomas ... HoF?

Frayed Knot Jun 29 2007 07:34 AM

Biggio -- YES - 3,002 hits (and counting) 27th player to get there - .286/.365/.435 lifetime - 658 doubles (6th all time) - 286 HRs - 413 SBs (77% successful) - 283 HBPs (most all time) - 1,821 runs scored (14th) - 999 Extra Base Hits (27th) Plus played 3 defensively important positions (C, 2B, CF) while winning 4 gold gloves. Frank Thomas - Yes ... although I'm a little less sold on him, partly because he gets virtually no brownie points for the non-hitting parts of his game. And also due to the back half of his career has been so pedestrian and injury-filled compared to the outrageous stats of the first half. - .303/.423/.562 - That OBA is 16th highest all-time, which becomes top-10 when you eliminate pre-1900 players or shorter careers. Also 3rd best for a RH batter. SLG is 18th best. OPS = 11th - 500 HRs (21st to get there) - 1,617 RBIs (26th) - 979 Extra Base Hits - 1,596 BBs (12th) vs 1,294 Ks

Edgy DC Jun 29 2007 07:48 AM

I think Frank Thomas, I think 100+ RBI, 100+ walks, and .100+ isolated OBP. He's played first in almost 1000 games, and I'd probably consider him worthy of the honor if he hadn't played one. As for Biggio, what exactly is the argument against him? I never really liked him, but his game didn't have a weakness once he left catcher. And a good hit-poor throwing catcher is still an asset.

Johnny Dickshot Jun 29 2007 07:50 AM

Elster's HO is the argument against Biggio. Haven't you kept up? Yes to both guys.

metirish Jun 29 2007 07:52 AM

I can't imagine either one not going to the HOF....

Edgy DC Jun 29 2007 07:53 AM

I'm a little Tim Leary of arguments against Griffey and Thomas based on their productivity falling off after 30. It's disappointing to watch, but they're still valuable players, and certainly are doing nothing to hurt the wonderful produciton of their 20s. It's an emotional argument, and one that we wouldn't make against Jimmie Foxx or Mickey Mantle, because we didn't live throught their declines. We see their numbers as a whole and conclude that they're solid Hall-of-Famers.

metirish Jun 29 2007 07:57 AM

Edgy DC wrote: I'm a little Tim Leary of arguments against Griffey and Thomas based on their productivity falling off after 30. It's disappointing to watch, but they're still valuable players, and certainly are doing nothing to hurt the wonderful produciton of their 20s. It's an emotional argument, and one that we wouldn't make against Jimmie Foxx or Mickey Mantle, because we didn't live throught their declines. We see their numbers as a whole and conclude that they're solid Hall-of-Famers. Excellent point,Willie Mays is remembered by Mets fans of a certain generation but those days didn't effect his HOF status,nor should they have of course.

Elster88 Jun 29 2007 08:33 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jun 29 2007 08:42 AM

Johnny Dickshot wrote: Elster's HO is the argument against Biggio. Haven't you kept up? Yes to both guys. Is there a particular reason you're being a dickhead? Anyway...with the numbers in my face I obviously was wrong. It's amazing what a guy can compile when he stays healthy and plays for 20 years. I didn't realize he was sixth in doubles. I guess hitting at .282 and OBP of .365 for 20 years or whatever is impressive. When I think of HoF'ers, I just don't think of Biggio, which is where my silliness came from.

Willets Point Jun 29 2007 08:34 AM

Yes.

Edgy DC Jun 29 2007 09:10 AM

What's an HO?

Johnny Dickshot Jun 29 2007 09:15 AM

humble opinion, in the milestones thread below. I decided to bust Elster's chops today after he came at me with a 'thank you for stating the obvious' at 7:30 in the morning. Normally the picture of ther wrestler in elster's messages help me adjust to the tone.

Edgy DC Jun 29 2007 09:22 AM

I thought for a moment that Elster had a ho who knew some shit about the Bidge.

seawolf17 Jun 29 2007 10:06 AM

Yes and yes.

Edgy DC Jun 29 2007 10:16 AM

He does have a ho? She does know some shit?

metsguyinmichigan Jun 29 2007 01:27 PM

I think both of them are absolute Hall of Famers, as is Sosa.

Benjamin Grimm Jun 29 2007 01:36 PM

Not so sure about Sosa. He has "the taint."

Edgy DC Jun 29 2007 01:39 PM

Cue Steve.

metsmarathon Jun 29 2007 02:48 PM

lets look at biggio compared to the rest of the 2bs in the hall... i'll establish my simplistic criteria as follows... total WARP3, and years above 10 WARP3... thats it. keeping it easy. relevant? who knows! lajoie - 173.1 - 7 collins - 181.9 - 10 hornsby - 165.9 - 8 evers - 70.1 - 0 frisch - 122.1 - 2 gehring - 133.3 - 6 maranville - 101.1 - 0 robinson - 93.3 - 4 ward - 93.0 - 0 herman - 109.7 - 4 doerr - 112.4 - 2 schoendienst - 97.2 - 3 morgan - 166.8 - 6 carew - 126.7 - 4 lazzeri - 85.4 - 1 fox - 94.6 - 1 mcphee - 109.6 - 0 mazeroski - 103.7 - 0 molitor - 134.1 - 0 sandberg - 112.7 - 4 biggio - 125.2 - 3 biggio is 7th in total wins above replacement player, and tied for 9th in "great" season, with WARP3 of 10 or greater, out of 20 second base hall of famers. well, 18 if we omit mazeroski and evers from the discussion.... biggio is a hall of famer, imo. ditto thomas.

metsmarathon Jun 29 2007 02:51 PM

sosa - 106 - 1

MFS62 Jun 29 2007 04:34 PM

I don't have the records in front of me, but IIRC, Thomas started his career with 7 or 8 consecutive years of .300BA, 20+ HR, 100 R and 100 RBI. (or something like that - maybe 100BB, too. I may be off by a stat or two.) He was the only major leaguer other than Gehrig to do that. Those are the kinds of counting stats that many of the writer still use to judge players. But he went into a decline quickly because of health. After that, he tried to play hurt (no pun intended), but his numbers never reached his early ones. And he could no longer play the field. Even when healthy, he was only a 2 tool player. (Hit, hit for power) That keeps him from the HOF in my mind, by a narrow margin. Biggio, on the other hand, played three different positions -key defensive up the middle ones - second base, catcher and center field. And he played them all well. Plus, he's a gritty type pf player who is four away from the record for career HBP. I would vote for him. Later

Rockin' Doc Jun 29 2007 05:09 PM

Both have compiled long, successful careers and have reached significant statistical milestones. I would definitely vote to enshrine both of them.

cleonjones11 Jun 29 2007 09:36 PM

Yes and Yes..As far as declining late career numbers Thomas hit 42 dingers for the A's

G-Fafif Jun 30 2007 06:37 AM

Biggio lost his only World Series to a team that Thomas was too injured to play on (which was a World Series nobody watched because the Yankees or Red Sox failed to qualify). Thus they didn't come through in a big spot, thus their entire careers are not validated. Oh, I'm sorry, I'm just channeling idiotic conventional wisdom I've heard on WFAN over the years regarding players who don't have (or didn't directly earn) championship rings. In reality, each man broke the last thin barrier of doubt Thursday. They're both in.