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Thoughts on the Hall of Fame

Valadius Jul 28 2005 07:45 PM

Congrats to Wade Boggs and Ryne Sandberg on their upcoming enshrinement in Cooperstown. But let's discuss those players who SHOULD be admitted to the Hall, whether they be still playing, not on the ballot yet, on the ballot, or in front of the Veteran's Committee. Here's my partial list of those deserving enshrinement (with current players, based on if they retired today): Gil Hodges (the ONLY player in the history of the Hall of Fame voting process to receive more than 60% of the votes from the writers and not make it in, with the exception of Bruce Sutter in this past year's ballot, who's on his way in soon) Bruce Sutter Goose Gossage Jim Rice Bert Blyleven Andre Dawson Tony Gwynn Mark McGwire Cal Ripken Jr. Rickey Henderson Edgar Martinez Tim Raines Roberto Alomar Mike Piazza Ivan Rodriguez Rafael Palmeiro Sammy Sosa Barry Bonds Roger Clemens Randy Johnson Pedro Martinez Greg Maddux Tom Glavine John Smoltz Trevor Hoffman Mariano Rivera Alex Rodriguez Ken Griffey Jr. Larry Walker Jeff Bagwell Manny Ramirez Craig Biggio Frank Thomas Jeff Kent

Johnny Dickshot Jul 28 2005 07:48 PM

Chipper Jones?

Nymr83 Jul 28 2005 09:54 PM

among the active players Glavine is a stretch to me. Ramirez wouldn't get in (imo) if he suffered a career ending injury tommorow, but assuming he doesn't h's a lock. the rest of those (active) guys should be locks. as far as the retired guys: Blyleven and Rice are the best pitcher/hitter not currently enshrined and eligible, imo. i don't want Dawson in the HOF, i'm not 100% sold on McGwire either, Marris isn't in is he?

Valadius Jul 28 2005 10:04 PM

No, Roger Maris is not in the Hall of Fame.

MFS62 Jul 29 2005 07:17 AM

I've posted the way I consider players for the HOF before. Using those criteria, here's how I view the folks on your list.:(Caps for ones I heartily would support or deny) Gil Hodges -I'd say yes if you could do it for player/ manager combined. Unfortunately, you now get voted in based on one category, and Gil doesn't quite measure up in either category. Bruce Sutter - yes Goose Gossage - maybe Jim Rice - a close no (he's better than Tony Perez, but I didn't think Tony belonged either) Bert Blyleven - yes Andre Dawson - close no (see Rice) Tony Gwynn - close no Mark McGwire - maybe, He was his generation's Harmon Killebrew - a one and a half tool player. They're so similar as players that without the steroids, I'd say if Harmon is in, he goes in, too. Cal Ripken Jr. - YES Rickey Henderson - YES Edgar Martinez - NO a one tool player Tim Raines - maybe - I wouldn't get heartburn if he got in. Roberto Alomar - yes (sigh) Mike Piazza - YES Ivan Rodriguez - let's wait a few years to see what his expected aging catcher decline does to his overall game and career stats Rafael Palmeiro - YES (but five years ago I would have said no. Sammy Sosa - yes, hard to argue his placement on the all time homer list Barry Bonds - yes (but I'd abstain unless I had a gun to my head) Roger Clemens - YES Randy Johnson - yes Pedro Martinez - let's wait to see how many career wins he ends up with Greg Maddux - YES Tom Glavine - If he gets in, then Jim Kaat should, too. John Smoltz - an Eckersley hybrid. I don't know. Trevor Hoffman - no, unless he's holding hands on the podium with Lee Smith on induction day. Mariano Rivera - yes - he may be the forst reliever who breaks through the glass ceiling. Alex Rodriguez - YES - he gets in on what he's already done, and he just turned 30. And at that age, is way ahead of the current record holders in hits, HR, R and RBI at the same age. He may end up being the greatest player of all time. Ken Griffey Jr. - no Larry Walker - I'd say yes, but the park adjustment police will keep him out. Jeff Bagwell - wait and see. He could go to the AL and add many more numbers to his resume. Manny Ramirez - yes. How can you keep the greatest hitter of his era out? Craig Biggio - yes (in very small letters) Frank Thomas - no - eight great years, and started out his career like a house on fire. But the ast few years have left a bad taste. Jeff Kent - yes

Benjamin Grimm Jul 29 2005 07:23 AM

Just scanning down 62's list, I spot two that I disagree with: I'd put Gwynn in and leave Biggio out.

cooby Jul 29 2005 07:29 AM

I would vote for Gwynn too--Lifetime BA of .338 over twenty seasons (almost 9300 ABs) Plus he knew enough to quit while he was still good enough to be remembered that way Cool voice, too.

Edgy MD Jul 29 2005 07:36 AM

Cooby likes nerdy voices. Mental note. Batting average may be over-rated, but I still wouldn't want to go to a Hall of Fame without Tony Gwynn. Nor will I. Five gold gloves, seven silver sluggers, and 15 all-star games. He'll walk through the front gates on ballot one.

seawolf17 Jul 29 2005 07:41 AM

How can you say what you did about Manny Ramirez (the greatest hitter of his era) and not include Jim Rice? Jim Rice is a definite YES. Other than that: Hodges NO - not enough, for the same reasons that Joe Torre would not have gotten in if he'd only won one WS with the MFYS Gossage NO - intimidating, yes, but not outstanding Gwynn YES - the best pure hitter of his generation - I know they were singles, but he was as big a star as there was during his era Pedro Martinez YES - three Cy Youngs, a career ERA+ of 167, a solid postseason record, etc. Smoltz/Glavine YES/YES - hard to leave these guys out with their success in ATL Jim Kaat NO - Kaat and Glavine are different pitchers; yes, Kaat pitched a long time, but he never won anything Griffey YES - Can't say yes to Palmiero and no to Griffey. Same kinds of reasons as Pedro... he changed the game in his prime. A-Rod NO - nobody younger than 30 gets a vote from me. Larry Walker NO - Walker's in and Rice isn't?!?! Hells no. Bagwell NO - but I could be swayed. Biggio/Alomar/Kent YES/YES/NO - Biggio and Alomar are definites, but Kent... bleh. Thomas NO - see Bagwell.

Frayed Knot Jul 29 2005 07:50 AM

Retired players: Gil Hodges - Sorry Brooklyn fans, but no Bruce Sutter - No. Not good enough for long enough Goose Gossage - No, but I wouldn't cry about it if he was Jim Rice - No Bert Blyleven - see Gossage Andre Dawson - No Tony Gwynn - Yes Mark McGwire - Yes Cal Ripken Jr. - Yes Rickey Henderson - Yes Edgar Martinez - No Tim Raines - No Roberto Alomar - Yes Active players: and here I'll use the 'Hit by a Train' method. In other words, if they never played anouther game ... Mike Piazza - Yes Ivan Rodriguez - Not yet, but almost certainly does enough from here on out Rafael Palmeiro - Yes Sammy Sosa - Yes Barry Bonds - Yes Roger Clemens - Yes Randy Johnson - Yes Pedro Martinez - Yes Greg Maddux - Yes Tom Glavine - Probably John Smoltz - Not yet, but still might Trevor Hoffman - No Mariano Rivera - Is actually just now eligible, but has already done enough Alex Rodriguez - Also just passed year 10, he too is in this soon Ken Griffey Jr. - Yes Larry Walker - No Jeff Bagwell - Maybe but this injury hurts those tack-on years Manny Ramirez - Almost certainly Craig Biggio - I think he will, another good year or two can seal it Frank Thomas - Not yet - depends on how the next few years go Jeff Kent - Not yet

MFS62 Jul 29 2005 08:10 AM

Ok, youze forced me to relook at Gwynn's numbers. He gets a strong YES from me. mea cupla. And I said yes to Biggio "in very small letters" I was looking for someone to sway me one way or another. Later

Edgy MD Jul 29 2005 08:23 AM

Gossage vs. Rivera Gossage Rivera Age IP ERA+ IP ERA+ 20 80.0 73 0.0 --- 21 49.7 54 0.0 --- 22 89.3 90 0.0 --- 23 141.7 246 0.0 --- 24 224.0 180 0.0 --- 25 133.0 156 67.0 83 26 134.3 173 107.7 242 27 58.3 465 70.7 235 28 99.0 180 61.3 234 29 46.7 173 69.0 245 30 93.0 123 75.7 178 31 87.3 193 80.7 191 32 102.3 82 46.0 160 33 79.0 127 70 7 265 34 64.7 84 78.7 231 Gossage was such a horse for so long. I'm totally down with enshrining his Yankee self.

OlerudOwned Jul 29 2005 11:06 AM

David Schoenfield on ESPN.com is doing a 2 day thing about future HOFers. http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/st ... 0728&num=0 Mets in there: 4. Tom Glavine Glavine has 269 wins and his career is winding down (wait, make that "his career is about to hit a brick wall"), so it appears he'll fall just short of the automatic 300-win barrier. No doubt, many electors -- especially those who used to pour down beers with Cy Young and Lefty Grove -- will disqualify Glavine because of that. After all, no starting pitcher with fewer than 300 wins has been voted in by the writers since Fergie Jenkins in 1991. That's insane. Glavine has won 20 games five times and has two Cy Youngs, finishing in the top three in four other years. He has a 2.47 ERA in eight World Series starts, including a one-hitter in the clinching game in 1995. He's a lock. 17. Mike Piazza The man hit .362 (!) in Dodger Stadium in 1997 -- and didn't win the MVP award. How is that possible? If he'd played in Coors Field that year (like a certain MVP winner did), Piazza might have hit .400. 21. Pedro Martinez Only five starting pitchers in the Hall have fewer wins than Pedro's 194: Dizzy Dean (150), Addie Joss (160), Sandy Koufax (165), Lefty Gomez (189) and Rube Waddell (193). Every starting pitcher in the Hall has at least 100 complete games. Pedro has 44. And no starting pitcher with a jheri curl has ever been elected. Ahh, but … his career batting average-against is .209 (third-best all time behind Nolan Ryan's .204 and Koufax's .205) … his on-base percentage allowed is .269 (best-ever for anyone who pitched after 1920) … his lifetime winning percentage (194-79, .711) currently ranks No. 1 all time … he has three of the top 15 seasons ever for adjusted ERA (ERA compared to the league average). The numbers overwhelm. But let's put it in terms even people who only watch "Around the Horn" can understand: From 1997 to 2002, Pedro was the most dominating pitcher in the game's history. 30. David Wright and 31. Hank Blalock Is this the golden age of third basemen? Alex Rodriguez, Scott Rolen, Eric Chavez, Aramis Ramirez, Troy Glaus and these two young sluggers. Third base is the most under-represented position in the Hall; it's time for that to change. Blalock, 24, is on pace for his second straight 30-HR, 100-RBI season and has made just three errors. Wright, just 22, is going to be a hitting machine.

Edgy MD Jul 29 2005 11:21 AM

I think Sid Fernandez has a batting average against of .204 or something.

seawolf17 Jul 29 2005 11:25 AM

Edgy, are you trying to say that Pedro's not a HoFer right now, if he retired today?

Edgy MD Jul 29 2005 11:41 AM

Pedro's a jerkweed if he retired today, ruining my season and more. But he'd be a jerkweed in the Hall-of-Fame. What could you be inferring? I'm just trying to clear up the record and see that a Met gets his due. Let's go to the record books. Sid Fernandez pitched 1,866.7 innings. Multiply that times three and you see that he got exactly 5,600 outs. He gave up 1,421 hits. So his batting average against, unless I'm missing something obvious should be 1,421 / ( 5,600 + 4,421 ) or 1,421 / 7,021 or 0.20239282153539381854436689930209 .203. Am I missing something, or is Sid not the all-time leader in this?

Edgy MD Jul 29 2005 11:42 AM

Of course, I'm missing the fact that not all innings equal three outs by the pitcher, because many runners will have been eliminated on the basepaths after reaching safely. Duh.

Spacemans Bong Jul 29 2005 11:48 AM Re: Thoughts on the Hall of Fame Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 29 2005 11:59 AM

Valadius wrote: Congrats to Wade Boggs and Ryne Sandberg on their upcoming enshrinement in Cooperstown. But let's discuss those players who SHOULD be admitted to the Hall, whether they be still playing, not on the ballot yet, on the ballot, or in front of the Veteran's Committee. Here's my partial list of those deserving enshrinement (with current players, based on if they retired today): Gil Hodges - Living in Rockaway doesn't make you a Hall of Famer Bruce Sutter - Maybe Goose Gossage - Absolutely Jim Rice - No. Severely overrated. Didn't walk and played in a bandbox. Bert Blyleven - The most deserving pitcher not currently enshrined. Andre Dawson - See Rice Tony Gwynn - Well yeah Mark McGwire Cal Ripken Jr. Rickey Henderson Edgar Martinez - No. You need to be a really, really good hitter to get in when you have zero defensive value. Edgar Martinez was just very good. Tim Raines - Absolutely. The best leadoff man ever after Rickey Henderson. He just happened to be a contemperary of Rickey Henderson and Paul Molitor (the third best leadoff man ever). Underrated because he was an Expo. Roberto Alomar - Well, yeah Mike Piazza Ivan Rodriguez Rafael Palmeiro Sammy Sosa Barry Bonds Roger Clemens Randy Johnson Pedro Martinez Greg Maddux Tom Glavine - The man has 250 wins and 2 Cy Young's, 5 20-win seasons and 9 All-Star appearances. On what planet do people who doubt Tom Glavine is a Hall of Famer live on? John Smoltz - Eh..not yet. Trevor Hoffman - No. Mariano Rivera - Probably. Alex Rodriguez - Uh yeah Ken Griffey Jr. - Yes Larry Walker - Maybe. Gets bonus points for being Canadian. Jeff Bagwell - Absolutely. Manny Ramirez - Maybe. Needs to play longer. Craig Biggio - Absolutely Frank Thomas - Absolutely Jeff Kent - Maybe Oh, and where's Ron Santo?

seawolf17 Jul 29 2005 11:52 AM

I thought you were trying to imply that because Sid Fernandez held batters to a lower BA than Pedro, and Sid's not a HoFer, that Pedro's some kind of schlemiel with gaudy stats and goofy hair and nothing else. As far as career BAA, I don't know, but look at this list: Career H/9 IP (min 1000 IP) 1. Nolan Ryan 6.555 2. Sandy Koufax 6.792 3. Pedro Martinez 6.844 4. Sid Fernandez 6.851 5. J.R. Richard 6.876 6. Andy Messersmith 6.937 7. Kerry Wood 6.938 8. Randy Johnson 6.980 9. Hoyt Wilhelm 7.014 10. Sam McDowell 7.034

TheOldMole Jul 29 2005 02:07 PM

Gil Hodges and Roger Maris should both be in the Hall of Fame.

MFS62 Jul 29 2005 02:14 PM

Sorry, Mole, I disagree on Maris. Maybe he belongs in a "special achievement" wing. But he played in an era when if you didn't at least come close to a .300 BA, you had to buy a ticket to get into the Hall. His .270+ BA doesn't cut it for me. He had two excellent years and was otherwise an average player. Later

Edgy MD Jul 29 2005 02:33 PM

Frank Thomas, foot fracture, out for the season.

Valadius Jul 29 2005 09:04 PM

Larry Walker is a Hall of Famer. Here's why: Career stats: .312 avg .400 obp + .565 slg = .965 ops 379 homers 1299 rbi 229 sb 467 doubles 1997 MVP - .366 avg, 49 hr, 130 rbi, 409 tb, 33 sb, .452 obp, .720 slg, 1.172 ops, nearly won the triple crown, 29 road homers and .346 road average Won a few batting titles in the late 90's On another note, how could anyone POSSIBLY say that Ivan Rodriguez doesn't have the credentials yet to make the Hall? He has ELEVEN Gold Gloves, most ever for a catcher 7 Silver Sluggers .306 avg 258 hr 1038 rbi Possibly the best defensive catcher ever.

DocTee Jul 31 2005 09:34 PM A case for Grace...

not that I agree... from: http://baseballcardsnmore.com/markgrace/ Mark had more hits in the 10 years comprising the nineties than ANY other major leaguer. Every other Decade hits leader (except Pete Rose) is in the Hall of Fame. Mark also led every major leaguer in doubles for those 10 years!! A tremendous "double" feat!! Grace Carer (1988-2003) Games AB BA HR RBI H 2B 3B BB K R RPI 2245 8065 .303 173 1146 2445 511 45 1075 642 1179 2152 The stats shown are only to compare Mark Grace with players elected to the Hall of Fame, not to diminish any of these great player's records. Baseball, the greatest of all games is always thought of as "A team game played by individuals" and we believe that the most important statistic in a player's record is the one that accounts for runs, as runs win games! We will attempt to illustrate Mark Grace's value to his team by showing his entire batting "arsenal", but especially his "runs produced index" (RPI) which is figured by adding runs scored and runs batted in and subtracting home runs as home runs add a run scored and a run batted in but in reality the team only scores one run! It will surprise many people to find that Mark Grace has supplied as many runs to the Cubs as some great power hitters have accounted for with their teams! Remember, Mark is an All Star Game veteran, a Gold Glove fielder, and has been the opening day first baseman for the Cubs for 12 straight years! The following season stats of Hall of Famers are based on 550 official at bats. Years BA HR RBI H 2B 3B R RPI Grace 14.60 .303 12 79 168 35 3 81 148 B. Robinson 19.31 .267 14 70 147 25 4 62 120 G. Kell 12.18 .306 6 71 169 31 4 72 137 J. Bench 14.00 .267 28 98 146 27 2 78 148 Tony Perez 17.79 .279 21 93 154 29 5 72 144 Enos Slaughter 14.50 .300 12 90 164 28 10 86 164 Drafted by the Cubs in the 24th round of the 1985 amateur draft 1988's Sporting News NL Rookie of the Year .308 lifetime batting average is the highest of any left handed Cubs hitter since 1900 (1,000 or more games) 456 doubles is highest total for Cubs in the 20th century! Hit .647 with a 1.118 slugging percentage in the 5 games of 1989 Cubs/Giants N.L. postseason series Hit for the cycle against San Diego May 9th, 1993 1,000th hit on August 31st, 1993 2,000th hit on August 2nd, 1999 Named to N.L. All Star Team 3 times Gold Glove winner 4 times 7 times in top 10 in on base percentage Mark's flair for the dramatic was evident on September 13th, 1998 when he hit a 2 run homer in the bottom of the 10th to beat Milwaukee, on "Gracie the Swan" Beanie Baby day! July 26th, 2000 - Gracie had a career high 6 RBIs in a 4 for 5 game against Philadelphia August 6th, 2000 - Mark had his first career 5 hit game, going 5 for 5 with 2 doubles and a homer at San Diego December 8th, 2000 - Mark signs a two year contract with the Arizona Diamondbacks.