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Ankiel and HGH

Gwreck Sep 07 2007 12:02 AM

Apparently he rec'd a year's shipment of it in 2004... http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/2007/09/06/2007-09-06_ankiel_received_12month_supply_of_hgh_ne.html

Rockin' Doc Sep 07 2007 05:02 AM

If he had invested in Valium, instead of HGH, he would likely be in the midst of a terrific pitching career.

Edgy DC Sep 07 2007 05:50 AM

Nothing going right if you're a Cardinal fan. Still, Jocketty speaking in the passive voice is distressing. Most of these things aren't just happening to the Cardinals, but stuff the Cardinals have done. Jocketty has got to start looking at it that way.

soupcan Sep 07 2007 07:56 AM

-Ankiel has had several injuries/surgeries since 2001 that anyone in his position would have wanted to recover from at a rapid pace -Evidence was also found of shipments of HGH to former major league pitcher Steve Woodard. Woodard and Ankiel were teammates with the Triple-A Memphis Redbirds in 2004 -Hit two home runs, a double and had seven RBI yesterday against the Pirates at Busch Stadium, giving him nine home runs in 81 at-bats since his remarkable major league comeback began on Aug. 10. Guilty as charged! However - -No proof that he recieved any HGH after the MLB ban was implemented in 2005.

metirish Sep 07 2007 08:00 AM

I'm not shocked ,surprised or disappointed ,certainly a year for the Cardinals to forget of the field at least,perhaps on it too.

sharpie Sep 07 2007 08:02 AM

Cards are only a game out, though.

Benjamin Grimm Sep 07 2007 08:06 AM

It would really annoy me if the Cardinals won another World Series with a win total in the low 80's.

Johnny Dickshot Sep 07 2007 08:07 AM

They're all filthy drug-using cheaters. They should move the entire franchise to the WWF.

Edgy DC Sep 07 2007 08:16 AM

The St. Louis Cardinals: the heartwarming story of group of individuals and their struggle to triumph over adversity brought on by themselves in their struggle to triumph over adversity.

Willets Point Sep 07 2007 08:16 AM

Way to ruin the feel good story of the year, Ankiel.

Frayed Knot Sep 07 2007 08:17 AM

I read this on another board Yesterday Morning - a full half-day before the story broke. "The thing that amazes me most about [Ankiel] is how much he has transformed his body. I saw him up close and personal last week and he looks to be much stronger in his upper body and his lower body is much more lean. Good for him. He looks like he's worked very hard." No idea where or how this guy saw him "up close and personal" or how accurate his observations are, but that was almost freaky timing for a toss-off line in the middle of a fan board discussion. There's a lack of consensus about whether this HGH stuff really does anything for you athletic-wise, and that there appears to be only evidence that he received this stuff prior to the substance being banned means that there's likely little MLB can do officially. What it does do is trash all the feel-good stories this guy has built up over the last year or two and particularly over the last 6 weeks.

Johnny Dickshot Sep 07 2007 08:19 AM

People should stop falling for feel-good stories and that includes the writers who write them. Seems like the outrage is always greatest when the going-in story is the warmest. Athletes are untrustworthy bastards.

Edgy DC Sep 07 2007 08:38 AM

Sure, but, at some level, feeling good is what we're in it for. We kind of want to fall. Better journalism that holds their subjects accountable and guides us more completely to the truth should be what the press is in it for. Did the News really break this story?

Johnny Dickshot Sep 07 2007 08:49 AM

Yes. TJ Quinn has been all over the performance enhancement thing.

holychicken Sep 07 2007 08:51 AM

Johnny Dickshot wrote: They're all filthy drug-using cheaters. They should move the entire franchise to the WWF. I didn't realize that the World Wildlife Fund was notorious for the use of performance enhancing drugs, let alone had any reason to actually use them.

Johnny Dickshot Sep 07 2007 09:06 AM

I do believe that Mets had a panda in Class A who hit 45 home runs in a half-season before flunking a drug test.

Edgy DC Sep 07 2007 09:24 AM

Ah, yes, the heartrending case of Dian Hu. What a disappointment.

Centerfield Sep 07 2007 09:26 AM

That's scary edgy.

Willets Point Sep 07 2007 09:30 AM

Edgy DC wrote: Sure, but, at some level, feeling good is what we're in it for. We kind of want to fall. Actually I watch sports because I like to see human beings succeed at things at a higher level than the typical person, not to see them fail.

Edgy DC Sep 07 2007 09:31 AM

I didn't mean to imply otherwise.

metirish Sep 07 2007 09:44 AM

Predictably St.Louis fans are upset.....with everyone it seems. http://www.stltoday.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=11

SteveJRogers Sep 07 2007 09:54 AM

Johnny Dickshot wrote: They're all filthy drug-using cheaters. They should move the entire franchise to the WWF. Mike Piazza, Edgardo Alfonzo Len Dysktra, Howard Johnson As I said in the past, make sure you can deal with news about your favorite team's players if it is revealed that there is fire where there once was just some smoke in the same way you are about other teams (Giants, Cardinals, Yankees) just because you have a personal hatred for that team and/or its players.

Johnny Dickshot Sep 07 2007 10:00 AM

1. Shut up Steve 2. You missed the point 3. Shut up steve 4. Panda baseball. WTF

soupcan Sep 07 2007 10:02 AM

I don't think anyone here thinks that just because a guy played for our favorite team that means they didn't use performance enhancing drugs. Panda baseball: 548. Beat that Ankiel.

metirish Sep 07 2007 10:07 AM

Did I miss some news regarding Piazza,Fonzie ,Lenny and HoJo?

SteveJRogers Sep 07 2007 10:14 AM

metirish wrote: Did I miss some news regarding Piazza,Fonzie ,Lenny and HoJo? No I'm just sick of the virtiol fans have of teams they hate (Yankees, Cardinals, Dodgers, ect) and are willing to make permanent bans on guys like Giambi, Clemens, McGwire, Sosa, Bonds, Sheffield for what they did for what seems only based on their hatred for the teams and players. If you are that upset, then stop following baseball entirely because chances are you rooted for someone who DID cheat. And the four aforementioned Mets are among the biggest ex-Mets that have whispers and innuendo thrown around by non-Met fans or Met haters. Here is something from another board that actually makes sense comparing Aaron and Bonds on the issue of steroids and greenies. Kind of making the point I'm trying to about making emotional, irrational statements based on your hate for one team/player when stuff like this has been going on for decades, and possibly by guys you like or teams you like ]Greenies would give you increased stamina and physical energy. Steroids give you increased stamina and physical energy with the added benifit of making muscle fibers heal more quickly. You don't take steroids and get strong. You take steroids and it allows you to do some crazy intense workouts for long periods of time (increased stamina and physical energy by the way). When you workout, the muscle fibers have to heal in order to get the best results. Usually this is you waiting until the soreness is gone to work out the same muscle group again, but on steroids, the muscle fibers heal faster allowing you to work out again faster. Greenies would give you similar effects minus you feeling sore in less time. Increased stamina and physical energy towards the middle of the season when your body starts getting fatigued is very much a performance enhancer. And why do people think Aaron took greenies? Because he would have been a minority among baseball players in his time if he didn't. The majority of the players took them (some estimates say 75% of them took the REGULARLY) in that time period. The reason you don't hear accusations about Aaron is that by the time Greenies were seen as a bad thing and banned (some, what, 30+ years later) Aaron was already a beloved national hero. No one was going to go back and point anything like that out. And like I said, if 75% of the league was using them then, who gives a fuck. They weren't doing what Aaron was doing so it wouldn't diminish his greatness in my eyes. Same with Bonds. Unless you truely believe tha the was one of the FEW guys taking something back when it wasn't against the rules to get an edge, then you have to know that yes, drugged up Bonds was playing against drugged up players and was doing what no one else was doing. As for Aaron and the video, back when everyone figured it would be Ken Griffey Jr. to catch his total, he gave an interview where he said he wouldn't be there when it happened because he wouldn't be traveling around waiting for the last home run and that the guy that broke it should have his moment because he already had his. The press pretending that he didn't show up as a slight to Bonds are just being misleading...as always.

Edgy DC Sep 07 2007 11:00 AM

Steve, please stop. I think if you spent as much time reading as writing, you'd find a lot of people here with a more nuanced perspective than you give them credit for.

metirish Sep 07 2007 11:09 AM

I don't recall anyone here defending Mota or any other Mets player that was suspended from the game,in fact I recall a lot of talk about weather the Mets were doing the right thing in having Mota back on the team.

Benjamin Grimm Sep 07 2007 11:10 AM

Steve seems to be trying to step into the "everybody's an idiot but me" role.

Rockin' Doc Sep 07 2007 11:18 AM

That will require a pretty huge step, probably more of a flying leap actually.

Valadius Sep 07 2007 11:37 AM

Show me evidence that he's used it this year. Back then, technically he wasn't breaking any rules. It kinda leaves a smudge on the comeback story for me, but it's still a pretty good feel-good story in my mind. Stuff that happened three years ago really doesn't ruin it for me.

soupcan Sep 07 2007 11:42 AM

Valadius wrote: Show me evidence that he's used it this year. Back then, technically he wasn't breaking any rules. It kinda leaves a smudge on the comeback story for me, but it's still a pretty good feel-good story in my mind. Stuff that happened three years ago really doesn't ruin it for me. Rules, no. Laws, um, yup.

Edgy DC Sep 07 2007 11:46 AM

He was purchasing illegally distributed rescription drugs. That may be no big deal for you, but on Cops, people get arrested at Rite Aid for that sort of thing. Why people want to squeeze things through on technicalities disaapoints me. This is the court of personal opinion. We don't owe them any such benefit.

Nymr83 Sep 07 2007 12:10 PM

illegal is WORSE than banned by baseball. were greenies illegal in Aaron's day? they weren't banned by baseball. and if the answer is no then he was operating within both the law and the rules of the game so he's no cheater. Bonds is.

Valadius Sep 07 2007 12:25 PM

Oh, now I see - this is connected to the Rodney Harrison thing. Ok, that makes it much worse, in terms of how you judge him as a person. Still, I give him credit for all the years he spent trying to come back. Many people simply would've given up after totally flaming out like he did. It takes guts to to try something different, knowing it could take years, to make it back.

metirish Sep 07 2007 12:29 PM

Well when you put it like that Val then it's perfectly understandable that AnKiel would cheat and lie. I feel bad for being down on him now.

SteveJRogers Sep 07 2007 02:49 PM

[url=http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/baseball/mlb/09/07/drug.probe/index.html] Looks like Troy Glaus is also in the same hot water![/url]

Edgy DC Sep 07 2007 02:58 PM

]The prescribing physician was Ramon Scruggs, M.D. According to the Medical Board of California, as of March 2007, Scruggs has been on probation and is prohibited from prescribing drugs over the internet. He also was reportedly involved in a lawsuit with Mobile-based Applied Pharmacy, which, ironically, was the subject of a previous multi-agency raid. That's not that ironic ](Contacted through New Hope and given the chance to comment on Friday, Scruggs responded with expletives and ended the conversation abruptly.) Wow.

Benjamin Grimm Sep 07 2007 03:02 PM

A lot of people get "ironically" confused with "coincidentally" or "incidentally."

SteveJRogers Sep 07 2007 03:43 PM

Yancy Street Gang wrote: A lot of people get "ironically" confused with "coincidentally" or "incidentally." Ironically =;)

OlerudOwned Sep 07 2007 03:56 PM

Yancy Street Gang wrote: A lot of people get "ironically" confused with "coincidentally" or "incidentally." My biggest peeve, bar nothing.

metsmarathon Sep 09 2007 08:55 PM

oh, how i love the argument that illegal = cheating. most of football, hockey, boxing, and much of basketball is illegal. in fact, throwing a baseball at a grown man is assault. hitting him is battery. running into a crowd to participate in a shoving match can get you arrested as well. and i've never heard of anybody getting arrested for putting cork into a piece of maple, or scuffing up a toy. if hgh wasn't banned by baseball, then taking it didn't make you a cheater. steroids, otoh, were banned by baseball - i'm pretty sure - and have been for a while. they just hadn't been tested for. that doesn't mean that just because something isn't banned that it's not bad for your, or terrible for you even, or something you'd hate to see your high school kids taking to get an edge on the competition. it just means that taking it isn't cheating. if they decided tomorrow that drinking gatorade is to be banned in baseball, would those players who took it before it became banned be called cheaters? nope. only if and when baseball and other sports adopt a policy like the olympics, where if they test you, and find something that isn't currently banned, but int he future it is banned, they can strip your accomplishments, can you state that taking hgh when it wasn't banned is cheating. if a guy's getting percosets on the side, is he cheating too? i mean, was keith hernandez cheating when he was snorting coke? or was he just breaking the law?

Nymr83 Sep 09 2007 09:53 PM

illegal does = cheating, but cheating need not = illegal. ] mean, was keith hernandez cheating when he was snorting coke? or was he just breaking the law? breaking the law and cheating if it was enhancing his performance, just like baseball doesnt need to say "don't take a knife and stab the pitcher to increase your performance" they also don't have to say "don't snort coke" its already illegal, baseball does not need to go out and delineate all the illegal things you can't do, only the legal ones that are against baseball's rules.

Edgy DC Sep 09 2007 10:08 PM

I'm going to more or less agree there, and disagree with marathon. Taking illegal action for an edge is cheating. Boxing is not illegal, because, while it's pugilism, it's not legal battery, because the boxers' licenses and the promoter's sanctions exempt their punches from legal recourse. Baseball holds no such exemption for use of HGH.

metsmarathon Sep 10 2007 09:49 AM

if keith was taking coke because he felt it gives him an edge, does it then make it cheating? if ankiel/glaus were taking hgh for legit doctor-prescribed reasons, would it still be cheating? because in the olympics, it still would be. if its banned, then no matter how you get it, its cheating if you do it. legal, doctor-prescribed, or produced in a meth lab, if its on the list and you take it, then you are cheating. is laser eye surgery cheating? is it cheating if you do it illegally, or without real need, just to improve performance? (like, i guess, if your eyes are already 20-20, and a doctor isn't willing to give you 20-15 cos your eyes are good enough, but you pay him a ton of money and he does it anyways...) if i'm a ballplayer, and i'm feeling a bit under the weather, and i illegally obtain prescription strength sudafed, and it makes me better, am i a cheater? to cheat, you have to break the rules of the activity in which you are engaged. if there is no rule to cover what you are doing, is it really cheating? or are you innovative? and that of course is not to say that i endorse finding the gaps in the established rules, or putting weird and wacky substances into your body because you think they might help you even though they might also hurt you, and hey, they're not on the banned list. and that doesn't make it good, right, healthy, or sportsmanlike. it just doesn't earn him the label of "cheater" to get that, you have to break the rules.

metirish Sep 10 2007 09:54 AM

Jay Gibbons is the latest player tied to hGH. [url=http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/bal-sp.gibbons10sep10,0,986450.story?coll=bal-iraq-storyutil]Gibbons[/url]

metsguyinmichigan Sep 10 2007 02:28 PM

This from Jayson Stark: "So fine. If we don't give a hoot about Guillermo Mota almost pitching the Mets into the 2006 World Series just days after testing positive, then why should we care about what some down-and-out, rehabbing, faded star did in 2004, when he was just trying to stay in baseball?" Was a middle reliever really "almost pitching the Mets into the 2006 World Series?" I know he pitched well, but this seems like a bit of a stretch.

Edgy DC Sep 10 2007 02:40 PM

metsmarathon wrote: if keith was taking coke because he felt it gives him an edge, does it then make it cheating? if ankiel/glaus were taking hgh for legit doctor-prescribed reasons, would it still be cheating? because in the olympics, it still would be. if its banned, then no matter how you get it, its cheating if you do it. legal, doctor-prescribed, or produced in a meth lab, if its on the list and you take it, then you are cheating. is laser eye surgery cheating? is it cheating if you do it illegally, or without real need, just to improve performance? (like, i guess, if your eyes are already 20-20, and a doctor isn't willing to give you 20-15 cos your eyes are good enough, but you pay him a ton of money and he does it anyways...) if i'm a ballplayer, and i'm feeling a bit under the weather, and i illegally obtain prescription strength sudafed, and it makes me better, am i a cheater? to cheat, you have to break the rules of the activity in which you are engaged. if there is no rule to cover what you are doing, is it really cheating? or are you innovative? and that of course is not to say that i endorse finding the gaps in the established rules, or putting weird and wacky substances into your body because you think they might help you even though they might also hurt you, and hey, they're not on the banned list. and that doesn't make it good, right, healthy, or sportsmanlike. it just doesn't earn him the label of "cheater" to get that, you have to break the rules. That's a lot of questions. Taking HGH is and was cheating and the guys who did it knew they were cheating when they did it. Their attitude may well have been that everybody does it, but they knew what they were doing. It cheats opponents, cheats history, and cheats the presumably two or three honest athletes who didn't get a chance because they played clean. I don't know why you're working so hard to split hairs on behalf of scoundrels and their behavior. Check out that Princeton University definition of "unsportsmanlike."

Edgy DC Sep 10 2007 04:43 PM

metsguyinmichigan wrote: This from Jayson Stark: "So fine. If we don't give a hoot about Guillermo Mota almost pitching the Mets into the 2006 World Series just days after testing positive, then why should we care about what some down-and-out, rehabbing, faded star did in 2004, when he was just trying to stay in baseball?" Was a middle reliever really "almost pitching the Mets into the 2006 World Series?" I know he pitched well, but this seems like a bit of a stretch. I did give a hoot. Two hoots at least. Still do.

metsmarathon Sep 10 2007 04:48 PM

how do you feel about lasik? actually, how do you feel about the colored contact lenses that nike unveiled two years ago to some media fanfare? if the mlb were now to ban those colored contact lenses, were the players who used to wear them cheating? cheaters? if the mlb were to ban maple bats, would the many players now using them be cheating? cheaters?

Edgy DC Sep 10 2007 04:55 PM

I don't know what you're talking about. Which of those things were criminal?

metsmarathon Sep 10 2007 09:35 PM

if its illegal, why do they have to ban it?

Edgy DC Sep 10 2007 09:49 PM

To underscore it, to speak out more strongly against it, to clarify what the penalties are, and to avoid people wasting their time trying to hide behind the ridiculous argument you're putting forward. Is Tonya Harding not a cheater, because the US Figure Skating Association never explictly outlawed contracting an attack on a rival's knee? What's lasik got to do with anything?

metsmarathon Sep 10 2007 10:51 PM

i don't know anymore. i'm trying to split a hair too thin.