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Is Jose Reyes beyond hope? Do we even THINK of trading him?

What should be done about Jose Reyes?

Trade him for a bonafide, top 5 pitcher in the game ace	1 votes
Bring in a talented SS for the bench but dangle the idea that Reyes' starting job isn't safe.	1 votes
Hire a manager/coach that will challenge him when he goes into a funk	8 votes
It ain't broke, what are you nuts?	8 votes

SteveJRogers Sep 30 2007 03:45 PM

Oh its safe to assume the Mets will not trade Jose Reyes this offseason, but it would be interesting to see what Reyes can net on the open market. Seems like he was getting Rey Ordonez/Kaz Matsui/ARod like reactions out there and the piped in crowd chant at the end of the recorded "Jose Jose Jose, JOOOOSSSEEEEEEEEE" has never sounded more fake so one might figure that a change of scenery just might be needed since the NY crowd is giving him no free passes at this point. So do you shop around for a Roy Oswalt, Roy Halladay, Johan Santana, Jake Peavy, C.C. Sabathia type to put at the front of the rotation? Yeah starting pitching was not the major problem, and having that type of pitcher doesn't gaurantee winning a World Series, but this team hasn't had a true "top 5 pitcher in the game" since Bret Saberhagen and sometimes that does hurt a team that has the type of makeup that this team does. They needed that stopper that you knew would get the job during the last couple of weeks of the season. Jose Reyes is far from the best SS in the game now, heck he may only be the 4th best SS in the division at this point, the Mets don't need Reyes as much as they need pitching help. Another thing the Mets could do, and I'll admit this is more likely to happen, is to get someone who would start at SS for most major league teams (not a frontliner, but a nice guy who would do nicely off the bench) and just play with the idea that he'd be a good starter. Certaint teams used to do that in order to kick players in the ass. And when you have a 120 million dollar payroll, yes you can afford to do so. And finally, hire someone who will stick hot pokers up Reyes' ass when he needs one, especially after how Reyes acted since the Houston benching. No, I don't know if Randolph/Henderson did that the last couple of months, but it is clear his maturation process took a huge step backwards the last couple of months, and it may be time for a drill sargent to take over. Or the Mets can do nothing and hope Reyes gets out of this funk on his own.

seawolf17 Sep 30 2007 03:54 PM

I think I'm just going to pretend this whole post doesn't exist.

Iubitul Sep 30 2007 03:58 PM

I am really, really, really frightened that the same thoughts were just going through my head as I was doing the grocery shopping just now... Now I know that I need professional help...

Benjamin Grimm Sep 30 2007 04:00 PM

He had a bad month or so. Back in April, David Wright (you know, the MVP candidate) did the same. It's way to early to give up on a talented young player. I'd certainly bring him back as the starting shortstop next year. If anything, I'd try to get some competition for him for the leadoff spot. Jose can play shortstop and bat 8th if his funk continues.

SteveJRogers Sep 30 2007 04:00 PM

Iubitul wrote: I am really, really, really frightened that the same thoughts were just going through my head as I was doing the grocery shopping just now... Now I know that I need professional help... Heh! Just be glad I really wouldn't trade Reyes (unless it was for an ace) and this was more of a temperature gauge.

Iubitul Sep 30 2007 04:03 PM

Yancy Street Gang wrote: He had a bad month or so. Back in April, David Wright (you know, the MVP candidate) did the same. It's way to early to give up on a talented young player. I'd certainly bring him back as the starting shortstop next year. If anything, I'd try to get some competition for him for the leadoff spot. Jose can play shortstop and bat 8th if his funk continues. It's been more than a bad month. While the calmer side of me doesn't want to trade him, there's another side that is afraid that this is just the tip of the iceberg. Keith said something interesting about noticing Reyes' mood change about a week or so before the famous benching incident...

Mex17 Sep 30 2007 04:08 PM

Is it possible that Ricky was more than a hinderance than a help with regards to him??

Zvon Sep 30 2007 04:10 PM

="Mex17"]Is it possible that Ricky was more than a hinderance than a help with regards to him?? HAIL! and you may be onto something there. What date did ricky arrive?

SteveJRogers Sep 30 2007 04:11 PM

="Zvon"] ="Mex17"]Is it possible that Ricky was more than a hinderance than a help with regards to him?? HAIL! Heh, even though that is 41 for Mex17 I'm not sure HAIL deserves to be in this thread!

seawolf17 Sep 30 2007 04:11 PM

Mex! Long time no post! Everybody's coming out of the woodwork today.

Benjamin Grimm Sep 30 2007 04:11 PM

Mex17 wrote: Is it possible that Ricky was more than a hinderance than a help with regards to him?? Yes, it's possible. That's something the Mets should look at.

Mex17 Sep 30 2007 04:14 PM

seawolf17 wrote: Mex! Long time no post! Everybody's coming out of the woodwork today. I am always more of a "Hot Stove" poster than anything else. Unfortunately, we are firing it up earlier than expected.

Zvon Sep 30 2007 04:40 PM

Okay, I'll bite. You don't trade Reyes for a pitching arm. I don't care if its Santana or Cy Young. These days you wait and you pay for your pitching. One thing is great about the money they seem to enjoy throwing around baseball. It's not mine, it will always be worth something to someone, and it won't come back and bite me. Or you wait for the right trade that hurts your team the least. If we could replace Reyes with a better shortstop, I would entertain this ridiculous notion of your Steve. Tell me how we can do that.

Nymr83 Sep 30 2007 04:48 PM

Arod!

SteveJRogers Sep 30 2007 04:50 PM

Okay Z, this year who was Reyes NOT better than? Lets see, SS this year better than Reyes: Hanley, Rollins (who all but sewn his MVP), hell Felipe Lopez of the Nats has gone ahead of him, Hardy, Jeter...do you want me to continue? I'll even take David Eckstein at this point if Reyes was moved.

seawolf17 Sep 30 2007 04:56 PM

Steve, you're a nice guy... but you're just digging yourself a hole here. Shut down the computer and go for a walk.

Zvon Sep 30 2007 05:10 PM

One half a season does not a career make. It's watching Reyes career that I want to enjoy. I'm sure it will have it's ups and downs. Now you get me Henley or J-Roll straight up for Reyes, we'll talk.

Valadius Sep 30 2007 05:10 PM

What are you smoking, Steve? FELIPE LOPEZ?!?!? Please. Reyes hit a rough patch. Rickey didn't help, I don't think. Rickey's selfishness might have started rubbing off on Reyes. Fire Rickey, but let Jose rest up for next year.

Zvon Sep 30 2007 05:49 PM

Ugh! I discovered what the problem is! Reyes didn't keep his eyes on the prize. He was goin for the wrong ring. Did you hook him up with that spleef ring Ricky? I gots to know.....

Rockin' Doc Sep 30 2007 06:27 PM

I went with the Steve is nuts option.

SteveJRogers Sep 30 2007 06:30 PM

Rockin' Doc wrote: I went with the Steve is nuts option. Actually I should change that to F'N nuts

Johnny Dickshot Sep 30 2007 08:06 PM

It's not a slump -- it's a potentially lethal character flaw.

Zvon Sep 30 2007 10:40 PM

Johnny Dickshot wrote: It's not a slump -- it's a potentially lethal character flaw. He's just a kid. If he's a sulker that can be nipped in the bud if handled the right way by the right person. Its not too late. Cripes, it's never too late to change yourself.

Iubitul Oct 01 2007 04:32 AM

Johnny Dickshot wrote: It's not a slump -- it's a potentially lethal character flaw. I have a feeling Dickshot is spot on here.

Rotblatt Oct 01 2007 05:59 AM

Johnny Dickshot wrote: ] ]It's not a slump -- it's a potentially lethal character flaw. ]I have a feeling Dickshot is spot on here. Me too. It's not so much that he slumped, but that he got sullen and stopped trying when he slumped--and that he didn't change his attitude after getting called out by Willie. On Saturday, I was left thinking that Reyes might be a bigger punk than Milledge, and at the beginning of the year, there's no way that thought would even have crossed my mind.

smg58 Oct 01 2007 06:08 AM

I could deal with the slump. Slumps happen. The fact is that it's been a while since it's looked like his head was in the game, though, and that's a legitimate concern. That being said, the guy's 24 and coming off the second best year of his career, one most of us would have been thrilled with two seasons ago. He still deserves some slack.

Johnny Dickshot Oct 01 2007 06:11 AM

Iubitul wrote: ="Johnny Dickshot"]It's not a slump -- it's a potentially lethal character flaw. I have a feeling Dickshot is spot on here. Wow, and I was only trying to make a subtle reference to gfafif's response in this thread. [url]http://cranepoolforum.qwknetllc.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=7375[/url] That said...

Iubitul Oct 01 2007 07:15 AM

I missed that thread, so I didn't get the reference. Like I said in another thread - Mex said yesterday that he noticed a change in him at least a week before the run in with WIllie.

metirish Oct 01 2007 07:16 AM

It's going to take a long while before I start feeling good about Reyes again, in fact I will never really feel the same about him, loafing on the base paths even this final weekend was the final insult for me.

Edgy DC Oct 01 2007 07:43 AM

If there's a story here, it's going to be a bomb when it comes out. A deep rift with a teammate. A disturbing personal issue. Caught between the guidance of two feuding coaches. The WFAN dream story: He's learned all the worst lessons from Rickey Henderson. "I tell ya, Mike, I swear I heard the little prick call himself 'Jose" today. I'm not sure, because he can't be bothered to speak English any better than he was three years ago. But I tell ya, I'm done with the guy. And, I'm done with the Mets. The minute they hired that no-good card-playin'... " As destroyed by the firing of Rick Down as David Wright was elevated by the promotion of Howard Johnson. Or, possibly, the embittered X factor behind the engineering of Down's dismissal, leading to a deepening rift with Randolph. He slept with Randolph's daughter. He slept with Randolph's son. I have no clue what the story is, but it's disappointing that it took until game 161 for reporters to start asking the question. It's seems maybe five weeks ago that Tim McCarver was still calling him one of the most exciting players of the last 50 years. We basically have four periods here: First two months, almost: Reyes is playing as well as anybody on the planet, and he is celebrated and treated like a prince. Second two months: Jose is playing poorly --- hitting sloppily but still getting his steals and walks, and we're hoping it's an adjustment phase. Third two months: some of us here are pointing out that there's enough of a sample size to suggest that something is genuinely wrong with the guy, but the public learning curve, fed by McCarver and other modestly observant observers, is still chanting "Jose!-Jose!-Jose!" like he's the fire bringer. The last two days of the season: The ultimate cost of his spiral of unproductive and sloppy play hits Mets fans like a brick in the back of the head, and they boo him hard.

Johnny Dickshot Oct 01 2007 08:16 AM

Reyes has some dark mysteries to him, no doubt. I always thought there was something more to the whole Mackey Shilstone Saga back in '04, too, but we never really found out what that was. Probably poutiness over losing SS/leadoff to Kaz Matsui, but maybe more than that too.

Benjamin Grimm Oct 01 2007 08:23 AM

I think we all wanted to see him as the next Mookie Wilson, albeit with more overall talent. The smile, the speed, the enthusiasm. Well, we've learned that he's no Mookie Wilson. He pouts, he sulks, and he dogs it at times. He's also 24 and talented. He can be a star player for the next 15 years. If the Mets give up on him now they can very well regret it for many years to come. They don't need to unload him. They need to redeem him.

metirish Oct 01 2007 08:28 AM

Perhaps the Mets need to find an Airline to sponsor him and name a route for him, he might be jealous of Wright.

Farmer Ted Oct 01 2007 08:38 AM

Other potential questions: For every potential game the Mets lost down the stretch due to Reyes' lack of productivity, how many Mets losses could be attributed to Wright's anemic April? Are the Reyes woes just magnified by the timing in the season. Was Reyes worn down or hurt from trying to reach 85 steals, the number that Ricky put on him with a wager? Did the bugger simply need a few extra days rest after the All Star break? Did opposing pitchers expose a week spot in his swing? Was Reyes more productive with a player with pop in the #2 spot rather than a "prototypical" hitter behind him in the lineup?

Vic Sage Oct 01 2007 08:41 AM

phuck Jose phucking Reyes.

Edgy DC Oct 01 2007 09:33 AM

Farmer Ted wrote: For every potential game the Mets lost down the stretch due to Reyes' lack of productivity, how many Mets losses could be attributed to Wright's anemic April? Are the Reyes woes just magnified by the timing in the season. Based on the final net numbers, far fewer losses are on Wright, but throwing away that ninth-innng meatball is still grinding my guts. Farmer Ted wrote: Was Reyes worn down or hurt from trying to reach 85 steals, the number that Ricky put on him with a wager? Did the bugger simply need a few extra days rest after the All Star break? Valid question. I think mental exhaustion was an issue as well. Now that he has the team stolen base record, he has nothing to prove by running so unstrategically next year, unless some fool convinces him he has to steal 100. Farmer Ted wrote: Did opposing pitchers expose a weak spot in his swing? Or a weakness in his approach, loving to chase high cheese. Farmer Ted wrote: Was Reyes more productive with a player with pop in the #2 spot rather than a "prototypical" hitter behind him in the lineup? It's not like LoDu --- our main #2 hitter in April --- was bringing the heavy lumber.

Edgy DC Oct 01 2007 10:22 AM

Month-by-monthliness, it's hard to track a gradual decline a tipping point, as he rallied in June after depressing in May. The suggestion is that something that tipped in early July spilled right the fuck over in early September. Or maybe the guy just got tired. He not only played virtually every inning, but we didn't really have a backup shortstop even available for most of the year. Month G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI TB BB SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG Apr 24 104 26 37 9 5 2 18 62 16 11 17 3 .356 .442 .596 May 27 112 16 30 5 2 0 7 39 14 19 12 3 .268 .349 .348 June 27 106 13 35 2 1 2 9 45 14 14 10 5 .330 .405 .425 July 27 117 21 31 9 2 3 7 53 9 9 11 3 .265 .317 .453 Aug 28 125 25 34 4 1 3 8 49 13 10 23 3 .272 .341 .392 Sept 27 117 18 24 7 1 2 8 39 11 15 5 4 .205 .279 .333

Grote15 Oct 01 2007 06:28 PM

I think Reyes wore down..that with being young and arrogant..Who knows. Lets just hope its not the Smithers Institute for Ganja repair..I'm beginning to wonder