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What's on 2nd? ... I don't know (3rd base)

Frayed Knot Oct 10 2007 08:11 AM

FOX's Ken Rosenthal drops a line about the Mets looking into the mascot-looking David Eckstein with the thought about moving him over to 2nd base. A FA who is coming off making $4.5mil in the final year of a 3 year/$10.5mil deal, Eckstein's offense is essentially the same as Luis Castillo's: DE (2005-2007): 1,564 ABs; .297/.345/.375; 13 HRs LC (2005-2007): 1,570 ABs; .295/.369/.368' 8 HRs The concern about his defense was that he didn't have the arm for SS where he's been his whole career. Presumably that wouldn't be a problem at 2nd although you wonder if he has the quick release you'd like for turning DPs. He always seemed to have an almost Pennington-like slow release which took almost max effort just to get the ball across the diamond. He'll turn 33 in January, some 8 months older than Castillo.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Oct 10 2007 08:13 AM

Dreckstein. Nein!

Edgy DC Oct 10 2007 08:16 AM

Eckstein could join Aaron Heilman in our subculture of Catholic players with Judeophonic names. I don't see too many other things to get excited about.

metirish Oct 10 2007 08:19 AM

I'd pass, I'm sure his agent would try to sell him as a player that gives his all every night, winning attitude and all that good stuff.

seawolf17 Oct 10 2007 08:21 AM

No.

soupcan Oct 10 2007 08:32 AM

"I've got a Gold Glove in my closet..."

Iubitul Oct 10 2007 08:37 AM

Sign ARod, and move Wright or Reyes to second. (no, I'm not serious)

HahnSolo Oct 10 2007 08:38 AM

Eckstein doesn't limp every time he runs to first, however.

Benjamin Grimm Oct 10 2007 08:48 AM

Iubitul wrote: Sign ARod, and move Wright or Reyes to second. (no, I'm not serious) Sign Rodriguez, put him at first base, and deal Delgado. Of course, that wouldn't solve second base at all.

Edgy DC Oct 10 2007 08:58 AM

Well, you'd be dealing Delgado for a keystoner, silly.

Vic Sage Oct 10 2007 09:21 AM

Deal for Barfield! His stock is down, but he's young and talented. Buy low for a change. Do it. Do it now.

Edgy DC Oct 10 2007 09:24 AM

I think the store is closed until after the World Series.

vtmet Oct 10 2007 03:43 PM

Vic Sage wrote: Deal for Barfield! His stock is down, but he's young and talented. Buy low for a change. Do it. Do it now. I was thinking the same thing...Barfield lost his starting 2B job in Cleveland to Cabrera...Barfield is a young RH hitting 2B with some talent...Gotay is a 2B that shows promise from the left side...could make a good young 2B plattoon and if one really shines could claim the job (competition between young players fighting for playing time isn't always a bad thing)...

Mendoza Line Oct 10 2007 04:00 PM

Vic Sage wrote: Deal for Barfield! His stock is down, but he's young and talented. Buy low for a change. Do it. Do it now. I was talking to an Indians fan about Barfield, who forgot how to hit sometime in mid-season. The Indians main need is corner OF, so Barfield would probably cost us Gomez. I don't know if I'd trade Gomez for someone who isn't close to a guaranteed improvement over Gotay at 2B. If we really can buy low (where low = some corner OF who isn't Milledge, Gomez, or Endy), a Gotay/Barfield platoon wouldn't be a bad option.

vtmet Oct 10 2007 04:59 PM

Mendoza Line wrote: ="Vic Sage"]Deal for Barfield! His stock is down, but he's young and talented. Buy low for a change. Do it. Do it now. I was talking to an Indians fan about Barfield, who forgot how to hit sometime in mid-season. The Indians main need is corner OF, so Barfield would probably cost us Gomez. I don't know if I'd trade Gomez for someone who isn't close to a guaranteed improvement over Gotay at 2B. If we really can buy low (where low = some corner OF who isn't Milledge, Gomez, or Endy), a Gotay/Barfield platoon wouldn't be a bad option. Ambres, Anderson Hernandez and Ben Johnson for Barfield...and if they ask nicely, how about throwing in Ricky Ledee...

bmfc1 Oct 10 2007 05:06 PM

Too late--the Mets released Ledee today, according to [u:dc63077f49]Baseball America[/u:dc63077f49]. (I'm sure that Omar is getting ready to re-sign him next summer). http://www.baseballamerica.com/blog/prospects/?p=620

Nymr83 Oct 10 2007 05:49 PM

]Mets looking into...[name] with the thought about moving him over to [position he doesn't play.] i don't like this.

vtmet Oct 10 2007 06:40 PM

Nymr83 wrote: ]Mets looking into...[name] with the thought about moving him over to [position he doesn't play.] i don't like this. I could be wrong on this one, but...I believe that Eckstein was originally a 2nd baseman throughout his minor league career in the Red Sox organization...and then when acquired by the Angels was moved to shortstop because the Angels had Adam Kennedy as a 2nd baseman but not much at SS...So, he became a shortstop in the same manner that Doug Flynn and Joe McEwing became shortstops (due to a need, not due being natural shortstops...which also explains why he has the arm of a 2nd baseman and takes so long to unload a throw from shortstop because he has to put everything that he has into the throw)...one nice thing about Eckstein would be that Reyes would actually have someone that could sub for him on occasions since Eckstein has both played shortstop and has batted leadoff...

metsmarathon Oct 10 2007 06:42 PM

Nymr83 wrote: ]Mets looking into...[name] with the thought about moving him over to [position he doesn't play.] i don't like this. jose valentin

vtmet Oct 10 2007 06:57 PM

metsmarathon wrote: ="Nymr83"] ]Mets looking into...[name] with the thought about moving him over to [position he doesn't play.] i don't like this. jose valentin and Jose Valentin was a much better 2nd baseman than he ever was at SS or 3B...goes to show that it doesn't take as much to excell at 2B as it does to excell at SS or even 3B...and at the same token, David Wright for all his flaws is a much better 3B than Valentin ever was, but I don't know how many fans state as a FACT that there is no way that David Wright could handle a transition to 2nd base...

Valadius Oct 10 2007 07:04 PM

Leave David at third. He can play the position, and that's where he can stand out in this league.

Edgy DC Oct 10 2007 08:01 PM Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Oct 11 2007 08:36 AM

I think the evidence shows that Jose Valentin was an excellent shortstop before he got hurt --- as recently as 2004. He wasn't signed for the purpose of moving him fulltime to second. He was signed to give him andopportunity to reclaim his career as a poorly paid utility player after a wretched injury-wrecked 2005. Second base was just where things opened up, but two guys had to fail there first. Three, if you count Bret Boone. Guys acquired as starters with the express purpose of moving them to a different position as a starter are few. There's a handful of guys moving from one outfield position to another --- Roger Cedeņo and Vince Coleman jump to mind. It's not very informative, and the conclusions you'd draw would be bad. More illustrative would be guys like Todd Zeile, Richie Hebner, and Jim Fregosi. None of those situaitons are remembered fondly, though, in most cases, he did more or less as well as you had a right to expect. In most cases as well, the player has some experience at the position he's moving to.

Vic Sage Oct 11 2007 08:17 AM

with eckstein's "offense" (and i use the term loosely), he'd have to be an established gold-glove caliber 2bman to seriously consider signing him.

Vic Sage Oct 11 2007 08:29 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Oct 11 2007 08:44 AM

and as for Barfield, he's not even 25 yet, with 2 major league seasons under his belt. Before coming up with SD, he rose thru their minor league system with impressive power/speed numbers and real run production at every level. The kid took a step back last season, but his upside is very real. That Cleveland has another strong young player at that position is to the advantage of anyone who wants to "buy low" on Barfield. I don't buy the notion at ALL that Gomez is so much a better prospect. I'd trade him for Barfield even up. So far, Gomez is all potential and no production (except for SBs), even on the minor league level. He's fast, with a great glove, but he looks overmatched at the plate, has little power, and didn't do anything to match barfield's minor league numbers. Plus speedy outfielders are more plentiful than 2bmen with power and speed. Barfield drove in over 120 runs a few years ago! put it this way, best case scenario: Barfield = Craig Biggio http://minors.baseball-reference.com/players.cgi?pid=885 Gomez = Devon White http://minors.baseball-reference.com/players.cgi?pid=5537 i do this deal in a heartbeat.

metsmarathon Oct 11 2007 08:31 AM

yup.

smg58 Oct 11 2007 08:44 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Oct 11 2007 08:46 AM

Like the writer said, he's equivalent to Castillo, so for starters he'd have to be asking for less money. Everybody always knocks Eckstein. I remember some ESPN writer a couple of years ago listing the Cardinals' signing of Eckstein as one of the worst moves of the offseason. And if he doesn't think being the World Series MVP counts for anything, he'll probably say he was right. I think Wright could handle moving to 2B. He has the speed, and his arm would be less of an issue. To seriously consider moving Wright, though, would require A-Rod taking the discount to wear the orange and blue that he says he would have done seven years ago, or Mike Lowell taking a comparable deal to what Eckstein or Castillo would get. Guys like Barfield or Chris Burke are worth looking at, but their stock value has to be well below that of Gomez at this point. I can't justify demanding value for a guy who played his way out of the lineup. The Indians could use pitching, too, and I might consider Pelfrey or Humber and somebody of lesser value for Barfield and Kelly Shoppach.

Edgy DC Oct 11 2007 08:45 AM

Part of the thing about Gomez is that he's part of the new regime of pushing prospects faster than previously, not allowing them to establish sustained quality performance at any level. He's been younger than the mean at every level he's played. Even before Minaya took over, the best hitters have been coming down the Mets pipeline too rapidly to put up a dominant season at any level. That includes Milledge, Reyes, and Wright too until his last half season before jumping. Not a lot of minor league dominance there, but, like Gomez, they were making somebody's prospect list, not just the internal one. Which isn't saying that I'm CAHNfident that Gomez is going to pan out. I'm not. Though I think he's got more power in that body than he's put up thus far.

metsmarathon Oct 11 2007 09:00 AM

are there terribly many players who make the switch, successfully or not, from third base to second base? my concern for dwright is not his arm or glove, but his ability to make the pivot, especially standing in there to take the hit on a close play against an aggressive runner. i don't think that learning curve is trivial.

metsmarathon Oct 11 2007 09:07 AM

why are we assuming that arod would be the better third baseman, forcing wright to move to either first or second?

Vic Sage Oct 11 2007 09:11 AM

i agree that Gomez has talent. And his build definitely indicates more power in the future. But he's still just potential, while Barfield has produced, including a solid rookie year in the majors (unlike Burke, who has yet to demonstrate he can hit major league pitching). as for Barfield/Shoppach, i already made that proposal.: Gomez/Humber With regard to Eckstein, he's got a career OPS+ of 89. The only reason he's now comparable to Castillo is that Eck plays on 2 legs to Castillo's 1. When Castillo was in his prime he put up 3 seasons of 108-110 OPS+, with a few gold gloves. In fact, Barfield's rookie season was as good or better than any season Eckstein has had in all but 2 of his 7 major league seasons. And while its true Eckx was a 2bman in the minors, the last time he played the position was the 14 games he played for the Angels 6 years ago. While i agree that Eck would not be substantially different than castillo at this point in Luis' career, i don't think either of them are that desirable. I'd rather try for Barfield, or give Gotay more of a shot, and save the $$ for pitching or catching.

Benjamin Grimm Oct 11 2007 09:22 AM

metsmarathon wrote: why are we assuming that arod would be the better third baseman, forcing wright to move to either first or second? Another option (not that I'm endorsing it) would be to return Rodriguez to shortstop and put Reyes at second.

vtmet Oct 11 2007 09:35 AM

Yancy Street Gang wrote: ="metsmarathon"]why are we assuming that arod would be the better third baseman, forcing wright to move to either first or second? Another option (not that I'm endorsing it) would be to return Rodriguez to shortstop and put Reyes at second. which I don't see happening or making sense...IMO, you would normally have the infielder with the weakest arm at 2B (of the 3 infielders that throw the ball as a normal part of their putout)...just like moving Reyes to 2nd for Matsui made no sense, moving Reyes to 2nd while keeping Wright at 3rd makes even less sense...Reyes has a howitzer, Wright has a BB gun...there have been numerous times where Wright just doesn't have the mustard to make a "3rd baseman's" throw...he's a fine athelete, and a fine fielder, just not a natural at 3rd base...and supposedly throughout Wright's early minor league career, there were doubts in the organization about whether Wright could handle 3B at the MLB level...I believe that in David's high school career, at least 2 of his seasons were played as a middle infielder...

Vic Sage Oct 11 2007 09:37 AM

Reyes, if nothing else, is a GG shortstop. A-Rod has demonstrated that he is a better 3bman than Wright. So, in the fantasy world where the Mets get A-Rod, he plays 3b and Wright moves. But i wouldn't move him to 2b, where injury risk is greater than any position other than C. Wright has terrific quickness and great hands, but his arm (while strong) is a scattergun. So, he could fill the hole in RF. And with A-Rod at 3b, we could then afford to play anybody at 2b who can catch the ball.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Oct 11 2007 09:46 AM

Yah. If you move Wright, must be to 1B or maybe LF. I'd like to see this team explore the possibility of upgrading at first base. I realize it would have created all kinds of havoc to try and cut Delgado loose on the fly, but its a shame we couldn't somehow get involved in the whole Texiera thing. The Braves now have a better first baseman than us, joining the Phillies.

Edgy DC Oct 11 2007 10:02 AM

I disagree that Wright has a "BB gun" and I'm unsure at what suggests that. He makes wreckless throws --- often when he has too much time to think --- but not weak ones.

vtmet Oct 11 2007 10:05 AM

Edgy DC wrote: I disagree that Wright has a "BB gun" and I'm unsure at what suggests that. He makes wreckless throws --- often when he has too much time to think --- but not weak ones. I've been seeing a few "artificial turf" type of him purposely throwing the ball to first with a bounce towards the end of the season...I haven't seen that throw done on purpose since the 80's...

Vic Sage Oct 11 2007 10:10 AM

i have no idea what sport you're watching, but Wright's arm is far from weak. His problem is innacuracy, not strength.

Valadius Oct 11 2007 11:07 AM

David Wright becomes less valuable if you move him from third base. And let's not forget, he's still getting better defensively.

Benjamin Grimm Oct 11 2007 11:30 AM

He only becomes less valuable off third base if you don't replace him with a quality offensive third baseman. And, if you make him a second baseman, (and he's able to handle it) you actually make him more valuable.

Rockin' Doc Oct 11 2007 11:34 AM

I would be very reluctant reluctant to make any trade that would require the Mets to move their best player, David Wright, to a new position. The team has enough holes to fill (SP, C, 2B, RF, and RP) already. I see no need to possibly create new ones by moving proven players to new positions in hopes of catching lightning in a bottle.

smg58 Oct 11 2007 11:37 AM

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Yah. If you move Wright, must be to 1B or maybe LF. I'd like to see this team explore the possibility of upgrading at first base. I realize it would have created all kinds of havoc to try and cut Delgado loose on the fly, but its a shame we couldn't somehow get involved in the whole Texiera thing. The Braves now have a better first baseman than us, joining the Phillies. The only thing I thought of there is seeing what the other pursuers of Teixeira (like the Angels) would have packaged for Delgado instead and then adding Martinez to that package and seeing if the Rangers would bite. I think a three-club deal is probably the only way you upgrade on Delgado at this point, and I'm not sure how likely that is. Our best hope then is that Delgado's .781 OPS after nine straight seasons above .900 was an aberration.

Benjamin Grimm Oct 11 2007 11:39 AM

I guess it's possible that Delgado will have a bounceback year, but it's more likely that his season was due to aging and not aberrations.

vtmet Oct 11 2007 11:44 AM

the thing that worries me the most (about not signing ARod if he does indeed walk away from his contract) would be the Phillies signing him...The Phils have had an incredible offense, without having a 3rd baseman...They don't have a huge payroll, but at the same time, I don't see why they couldn't afford a big payroll...an infield of Howard/Utley/Rollins/AROD locked up for the next 5 years or so, makes them lethal regardless of what clowns they have in the OF and the pitching staff...

John Cougar Lunchbucket Oct 11 2007 11:44 AM

That's one reason why an emotionless approach to the offseason might include moving Wright to first base.

vtmet Oct 11 2007 11:46 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Oct 11 2007 11:47 AM

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: That's one reason why an emotionless approach to the offseason might include moving Wright to first base. Delgado walks into spring training only to find a catcher's glove, mask, shin guards and chest protector there...that's a scary but humerous thought...

Edgy DC Oct 11 2007 11:47 AM

(dumb thought)If the Mets get in a heated battle for the Rod, would Wright's offer to move nine months earlier get framed as tampering?(/dumb thought)

John Cougar Lunchbucket Oct 11 2007 11:47 AM

We could use a powerhitting lefty catcher...

vtmet Oct 11 2007 11:51 AM

Edgy DC wrote: (dumb thought)If the Mets get in a heated battle for the Rod, would Wright's offer to move nine months earlier get framed as tampering?(/dumb thought) that's kind of a grey area there...If management had stated that if AROD was available, that they would love to have him, that is tampering...If DW had called AROD and told him, "dude, nix your contract and I'll move for you", that is probably tampering...if a newspaper reporter asks a player, would you change your position if the Mets signed a guy that is projected to hit 800 HRs and also plays your position; is it tampering to answer the question honestly and elaborate on your answer?

Edgy DC Oct 11 2007 11:57 AM

I don't want to make much of it, as I'm certain it'll come to nothing, but tampering accusations have been stirred by press quotes in the past.

Benjamin Grimm Oct 11 2007 11:58 AM

How much do the tampering rules apply to players? I remember Darryl Strawberry getting in a little hot water because he telegraphed his intentions to go to Los Angeles while he was still playing for the Mets. But in that case, it was a player sending a signal to a future employer. David Wright can't negotiate on behalf of the Mets. (At least not until he's granted Al Leiter powers!) So nothing he says would be interpreted as a signal to Rodriguez that the Mets were interested in him.

Centerfield Oct 11 2007 12:17 PM

How about picking up that clutch-hitting second baseman for the Rockies? I hear he's a free agent...

vtmet Oct 11 2007 12:27 PM

Centerfield wrote: How about picking up that clutch-hitting second baseman for the Rockies? I hear he's a free agent... lol...I said the same thing last week elsewhere, and not a soul took me seriously...the pre-Rox version of Kaz was a nightmare, but the version that is playing in the NL Playoffs could be an ideal leadoff hitter and 2nd baseman for the '08 Mets...but I think that this bridge has been burned...

Benjamin Grimm Oct 11 2007 12:33 PM

I'd be okay with a return by Kaz. I don't know if he's the BEST option, but he's probably not the worst either. (I'm more interested in giving Barfield a shot.) But I do like your point about a second baseman who can bat leadoff. I hope that whoever we get can be a candidate for that spot in the lineup. I'd like a fallback in case Jose Reyes needs to spend some time further down in the lineup. (If he's still popping up all the time I'd consider moving him down to 7th or 8th.)

Edgy DC Oct 11 2007 12:35 PM

Only thing Matsui has in Colorado that he didn't have in New York is consistent physical well-being, and, less relevantly, the support of his team's fans. OPS+ by year: 2004 88 2005 72 2006 76 2007 87

smg58 Oct 11 2007 12:48 PM

="Edgy DC"]Only thing Matsui has in Colorado that he didn't have in New York is consistent physical well-being, and, less relevantly, the support of his team's fans. OPS+ by year: 2004 88 2005 72 2006 76 2007 87 His .638 OPS outside of Coors this year leaves a little to be desired, and Hurdle didn't trust him against left-handed pitching (only 70 AB). But he can look real good for short stretches of time, and he was hot last week.

vtmet Oct 11 2007 12:55 PM

Yancy Street Gang wrote: I'd be okay with a return by Kaz. I don't know if he's the BEST option, but he's probably not the worst either. (I'm more interested in giving Barfield a shot.) But I do like your point about a second baseman who can bat leadoff. I hope that whoever we get can be a candidate for that spot in the lineup. I'd like a fallback in case Jose Reyes needs to spend some time further down in the lineup. (If he's still popping up all the time I'd consider moving him down to 7th or 8th.) I'm sure that there are a lot of people that would disagree with me on this, but I think part of Reyes' struggles is because he's trying to hard to be a leadoff hitter and not letting his natural ability take care of things...while he's the guy most likely to score and to cause havoc, IMO, he'd be a much better #2 hitter than leadoff hitter (which is the opposite of what I believed back when Kaz was batting leadoff and Reyes was hitting behind him)... I know that it has it's own thread but I think that Reyes allowed success and too much thinking to ruin his 2nd half of this season (in a similar sense to DW losing all his power after the HR derby last season...it took a while for DW to get his swing back)....Did worrying about working the count instead of pouncing on his pitches mess him up? Did pitchers work him differently (he started to get a lot more walks with runners in scoring position)...Did Rollins/Hanley Ramirez's success play head games with him? I just think that his approach could improve by being the #2 guy with a fast guy in front of him and Wright/Beltran immediately after him...you know that Willie doesn't want either Wright or Beltran batting 2nd (which makes sense since they are the 2 best RBI guys), but if they could find someone to bat ahead of Reyes, why not have a Reyes/Wright/Beltran combo in the lineup? Makes things tougher on the opposing pitching scheme in the fact that both Reyes/Wright are tough on lefties but at the same time, they all can do serious damage against RH pitching as well...

metirish Oct 26 2007 09:11 AM

Found this in the Philadelphia Inquirer , from the 24th. ] Sources say the Phillies reached out to Tadahito Iguchi about re-signing to play third base. Iguchi told the team he preferred to sign elsewhere as a second baseman. . . .

smg58 Oct 26 2007 10:40 AM

It's tough to get a read on Tad. His best was only pretty good, and he appears to be on the decline. He's not somebody I'd commit to starting ahead of Gotay against right-handed pitching. If he's willing to come and platoon and try to work his way into more playing time (and be paid as somebody not guaranteed a full-time spot), I'd take a look.

Benjamin Grimm Oct 26 2007 06:56 PM

Padres are releasing Marcus Giles. I was interested in him last year. Not so much this year.

Elster88 Oct 27 2007 11:19 AM

I used to think he was a stud. Back in the day I was very jealous of Atlanta.

Valadius Oct 28 2007 09:24 AM

From Newsday: ]The New York Mets are rumored to be considering three options at second base for 2008. Luis Castillo, Mets. They want him back, and he seemed happy during his brief stay. David Eckstein, St. Louis Cardinals. He's a free agent, and he probably could make a smooth transition from shortstop. Geoff Blum, San Diego Padres. A nice player, although his California roots probably will keep him with the Padres.

Fman99 Oct 28 2007 01:05 PM

Valadius wrote: From Newsday: ]The New York Mets are rumored to be considering three options at second base for 2008. Luis Castillo, Mets. They want him back, and he seemed happy during his brief stay. David Eckstein, St. Louis Cardinals. He's a free agent, and he probably could make a smooth transition from shortstop. Geoff Blum, San Diego Padres. A nice player, although his California roots probably will keep him with the Padres. I would hope that Ruben Gotay will get a chance to compete for the job, especially if Castillo is not brought back. He did enough at the dish last year to deserve at least a shot at the starting lineup, IMHO.

Frayed Knot Nov 01 2007 07:14 AM

A look at the once top 2B prospect currently barely hanging on to an ML career but still the apple of Vic Sage's eye - one [url=http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/what-happened-to-josh-barfield/]Josh Barfield[/url]

Edgy DC Nov 01 2007 07:26 AM

Barfield is carrying the weight of his familily's problems. That's my story.

smg58 Nov 01 2007 10:22 AM

Guys like Barfield or Chris Burke would be worth a low-risk look, but their present value is such that I couldn't at this point justify dealing more than a marginal prospect for either.

Vic Sage Nov 05 2007 11:27 AM

buy LOW!!!!!!!!!