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Good Night Sign Man

G-Fafif Feb 09 2008 05:32 AM

Karl Ehrhardt, 1924-2008 http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/09/sports/09ehrhardt.html

themetfairy Feb 09 2008 05:40 AM

John Cougar Lunchbucket Feb 09 2008 06:10 AM

There are no words.

G-Fafif Feb 09 2008 06:26 AM

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: There are no words. GMTA... http://faithandfear.blogharbor.com/blog/_archives/2008/2/9/3513705.html

Benjamin Grimm Feb 09 2008 06:39 AM

metirish Feb 09 2008 06:45 AM

.

KC Feb 09 2008 07:05 AM

From the 1970 Mets Yearbook:

AG/DC Feb 09 2008 07:15 AM

MFS62 Feb 09 2008 07:49 AM

.

Rockin' Doc Feb 09 2008 08:41 AM

mario25 Feb 09 2008 10:14 AM

RIP SIGN MAN.....YOUR MEMORY LIVES ON

RealityChuck Feb 09 2008 12:00 PM

RIP. He was as much a part of the '69 team as any of the players.

metsguyinmichigan Feb 09 2008 12:59 PM

"On Oct. 16, 1969, when left fielder Cleon Jones caught the final out of the World Series, a choked-up Sign Man held up, “There Are No Words.” ' I wonder what happened to all the signs. When the team opens the musuem in Citi Field, I hope there are some that can be displayed. I hope the team does something to mark his passing this season. Not a patch or armband or anything like that. But a moment of silence would be nice.

Frayed Knot Feb 09 2008 01:50 PM

Ehrhardt had a falling out with the club at some point over some matter or another. They later made up at least to some extent (or the offending persons in his mind left) but I'm not sure where the 'relationship' was in recent years. At minimum some photos in the new place acknowledging him in whatever area they set aside for NYM history/HoF (assuming they still have room after building their Jackie R shrines).

Farmer Ted Feb 09 2008 02:47 PM

A sad day.

smg58 Feb 09 2008 06:48 PM

Nymr83 Feb 09 2008 06:56 PM

metsguyinmichigan wrote: I hope the team does something to mark his passing this season. Not a patch or armband or anything like that. But a moment of silence would be nice. how about hanging some of his better known signs somewhere visible in the park?

soupcan Feb 09 2008 07:13 PM

MFS62 Feb 09 2008 07:40 PM

Frayed Knot wrote: Ehrhardt had a falling out with the club at some point over some matter or another. They later made up at least to some extent (or the offending persons in his mind left) but I'm not sure where the 'relationship' was in recent years. At minimum some photos in the new place acknowledging him in whatever area they set aside for NYM history/HoF (assuming they still have room after building their Jackie R shrines). IIRC, one year the Mets had a ceremony to honor their "best 25 fans". Ehrhardt was amazingly left off the list. I can't say I blame him for being angry. I was outraged when I found out he wasn't on that list, as were many Mets fans when the list was announced. Later

John Cougar Lunchbucket Feb 09 2008 08:47 PM

I'm gonna come out and say right now that couldn't possibly be the genesis of their disagreement.

AG/DC Feb 09 2008 10:02 PM

I think they had a cozy relationship that exempted him from ticket hikes every year, and that policy ended around 1983 when a seat at Shea suddenly had a value again. I think he just got priced out of the Davey Johnson era.

SteveJRogers Feb 09 2008 10:42 PM

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: I'm gonna come out and say right now that couldn't possibly be the genesis of their disagreement. Not only that, does anyone here even remember such a thing? I have scores of official Met publications going back to the sixties and I don't see any mention of such a thing. Besides, how would something like that work? Were Met Loving Big Shots also considered? Not to mention who was to say that the guy who sat in Mezz 23, Row F Seat 4 was a better fan than the guy on Field Box 45 Row A Seat 1? I have seen that story posted here before though, not sure if it was also posted by MFS62 but the point was that Ehrhardt was on the ballot but enough people ended up not voting for him because they felt EVERYONE ELSE would be voting for him, so he ended up not making the cut.

KC Feb 10 2008 02:30 AM

From a 2006 NYT article about him: By 1981, Ehrhardt began noticing signs of changing times. He said that the Mets, who had become a laughingstock, were no longer inviting him to team functions. "The front office was now run by new ownership, and they didn't like me criticizing the team," he said. "They turned their backs on me, so I just packed up my signs and went home."

themetfairy Feb 10 2008 09:53 AM

I find it interesting that Greg broke this story (both here and on FAFIF) a full day before the Mets mentioned it on their website. I wonder whether the official website took its cue from the blogosphere on this one.

KC Feb 10 2008 10:33 AM

Or they don't read the New York Times as early as we do here.

DocTee Feb 10 2008 11:36 AM

I wonder what his epitaph will be.

Frayed Knot Feb 10 2008 11:41 AM

DocTee wrote: I wonder what his epitaph will be. 'Signing Off'

G-Fafif Feb 10 2008 05:18 PM

SNY's SportsNite did a full slate of baseball stories Saturday and unless I missed it at the beginning, in the middle or at the end of the broadcast, did not mention the Sign Man at all. WTF? It's a Saturday in February. No disrespect to basketball or hockey (or yet another recap of the Super Bowl played six days earlier), but you couldn't find 30 seconds for Karl Ehrhardt? You're SportsNet NEW YORK, and this was a true New York sports icon. Throw in "Mets Weekly" having done a profile on the man in 2006 and you've got it on file. This was big enough for Bruce Beck to cover on Channel 4, for goodness sake. The Mets' network dropped the ball (or the sign) on this one.

AG/DC Feb 10 2008 06:06 PM

But I bet you're not surprised.

KC Feb 10 2008 06:45 PM

I'll be painted forum curmudgeon again, but I thought we'd moved on from caring what metsdotcom or SNY does.

Frayed Knot Feb 10 2008 06:46 PM

Newsday: Ehrhardt destroyed all but a handful of his [as many as 1,200] signs after a falling out with Mets management when Doubleday and Wilpon purchased the team in 1981. The Mets brought him and his placards back in 2002 for the team's 40th anniversary ... In his later years, Ehrhardt still followed the Mets but mostly to root against them because he was still bitter [his daughter] said.

AG/DC Feb 10 2008 07:05 PM

Damn. How do you fuck that up?

Rockin' Doc Feb 10 2008 07:19 PM

"In his later years, Ehrhardt still followed the Mets but mostly to root against them because he was still bitter [his daughter] said." Kind of explains why Mets.com and SNY failed to acknowledge his passing.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Feb 10 2008 07:53 PM

I don't think that's true either. The fact of the matter is they prolly aren't paying for top-shelf journalistic talent on the weekdays, much less on weekends, gambling that we won't notice and secure in the knowledge that even if we do, they're still the only channel in town to see a Met game. On a more general matter, I mean, really. It's a guy and a baseball team. Let's not pretend whatever misunderstandings they had with one another were so hot, and the people involved so small, that they'd carry on beyond the grave by directing their news staffs to stick it to him personally by... refusing to inform people he's dead? Ehrhardt is the one person who needn't be informed he's dead at the present time. I also should say that although it's admirable and nice that people are able to find out stuff on fan sites better and in cases like this, before some alleged mainstream outlets, fafif himself would tell you he's not "breaking" anything, just passing it along.

Zvon Feb 10 2008 08:00 PM

Only heard about this just today. This guy was as much part of my childhood Met memories as anyone that took the field for the team. I salute you Karl. Thanks for the memories. _____________________________ "He was part of the happening that Shea became," said Bob Mandt, former Mets VP.

SteveJRogers Feb 10 2008 08:28 PM

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: I don't think that's true either. The fact of the matter is they prolly aren't paying for top-shelf journalistic talent on the weekdays, much less on weekends, gambling that we won't notice and secure in the knowledge that even if we do, they're still the only channel in town to see a Met game. On a more general matter, I mean, really. It's a guy and a baseball team. Let's not pretend whatever misunderstandings they had with one another were so hot, and the people involved so small, that they'd carry on beyond the grave by directing their news staffs to stick it to him personally by... refusing to inform people he's dead? Ehrhardt is the one person who needn't be informed he's dead at the present time. I also should say that although it's admirable and nice that people are able to find out stuff on fan sites better and in cases like this, before some alleged mainstream outlets, fafif himself would tell you he's not "breaking" anything, just passing it along. I kind of agree with 'bucket here. For starters, it did seem Ehrhardt had an over-exaggerated view of himself which probably had more to do with the falling out than simply being priced out of the market. I'm sure Weissman52 wouldn't simply dump the Mets if his old seats went up in value (not the reason he stopped going though). But more to the point, yes he was a Super Fan, and yes he was an integral part of the Shea experience during the 60s and 70s, but is it the weekend staff at the dotcom and SNY to realize that this is something that an official statement should be made right away of? Did Doris from Rego Park get a dotcom or Fox NY's Inside Pitch sendoff (she passed sometime in the early 2000s)? No, despite the fact that she was a WFAN and Shea Stadium fixture for many years and I'm sure no Mets Extra, or Steve Somers/Jody McDonald overnight show after the game would have been complete without her thoughts on the game. But in the end, she had her own small corner of Met-fandom, the way Ehrhardt had his, and its better off that both are remembered more so by the fandom than by the team itself. I hope that makes sense in terms of trying to explain why SNY and Mets.com weren't rushing to tribute Ehrhardt yesterday the way they would if it was a longtime visible employee. For example; Kiner, Pete Flynn or Bob Mandt, all whom I'd presume would get some degree of treatment upon the exact announcement of their passings, no doubt the templates for their obits have been made already.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Feb 10 2008 08:44 PM

I'm not letting those 2 outlets off the hook here for their failure to recognize the story -- they screwed up big time. I'm saying they get what they pay for in terms of being viewed with any credibility.

G-Fafif Feb 11 2008 12:37 AM

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: I also should say that although it's admirable and nice that people are able to find out stuff on fan sites better and in cases like this, before some alleged mainstream outlets, fafif himself would tell you he's not "breaking" anything, just passing it along. My "breaking" the story consisted of finding a link to the Times obituary on MetsBlog. It helps to cook with ready-made ingredients sometimes. By late Saturday night, AP, ESPN.com and Channel 4 had all seen fit to note the passing of Mr. Ehrhardt. On Sunday, the story had gotten play in the News and Newsday. Those are five outfits right there (six, with the Times) whose scope of coverage is far wider than Mets baseball, which is SNY's trademark. It's in light of those outlets viewing the passing of the Mets' Sign Man as noteworthy that I find it disappointing -- in terms of diligence and mission -- that SNY's own news show, which the network positions as a New York sportscast of record, skipped it Saturday and Sunday. (If Mets Hot Stove, which airs Monday evening at 6:30, mentions it, then my disappointment is lessened.)

AG/DC Feb 11 2008 05:45 AM

I imagine many of the established outfits have a database of obituaries in the can for a lot of figures, and just have to hit the "publish" button if Richard Todd kicks the bucket during Daytona weekend. That's not an excuse for SNY or anything.

themetfairy Feb 11 2008 05:58 AM

AG/DC wrote: I imagine many of the established outfits have a database of obituaries in the can for a lot of figures, and just have to hit the "publish" button if Richard Todd kicks the bucket during Daytona weekend. That's definitely the case. I remember touring the New York Times when I was in high school, back in the days when newspapers were published off of plates that were set up manually, and they had draws full of ready-to-go obituaries for famous figures. It was an impressive sight.

AG/DC Feb 11 2008 06:31 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Feb 11 2008 11:46 AM

Impressive, if sobering. And I guess if SNY had one in the hopper for Ehrhardt, they'd probably run it a dozen times over the weekend with no sense that the airstaff had any idea who this guy was that they kept pushing the button for, and it would be just as depressing. We're relics. And that programming just isn't for us. We get the bones, but the feast is for the kids.

KC Feb 11 2008 07:28 AM

Doris from Rego Park?

AG/DC Feb 11 2008 07:30 AM

I know, right?

SteveJRogers Feb 11 2008 09:49 AM

KC wrote: Doris from Rego Park? What makes Doris different from Sign Man from Weissman52 from Bryan Hoch from TACKA (The Artist Currently Known As) Johnny Cougar LunchBucket from Cow-Bell Man? Out of curiosity, would you expect or want YES to run something once that Freddy Sez guy passes?

KC Feb 11 2008 09:56 AM

I have no idea who Freddie Sez is, I'm not a closet Yankee fan and certainly watch YES as little as is humanly possible. As for your first question, don't be so modest Steve that you leave yourself off that list of Celebrity Mets fans. Sheesh.

soupcan Feb 11 2008 10:00 AM

SteveJRogers wrote: ="KC"]Doris from Rego Park? What makes Doris different from Sign Man from Weissman52 from Bryan Hoch from TACKA (The Artist Currently Known As) Johnny Cougar LunchBucket from Cow-Bell Man? SteveJBlindersOn, You really see no difference between Erhardt all those other peeps?

AG/DC Feb 11 2008 10:00 AM

Everything makes them different, Steve. Everything.

SteveJRogers Feb 11 2008 10:05 AM

KC wrote: I have no idea who Freddie Sez is, I'm not a closet Yankee fan and certainly watch YES as little as is humanly possible. As for your first question, don't be so modest Steve that you leave yourself off that list of Celebrity Mets fans. Sheesh. Freddie Sez is an old Yankee fan who for years carries a sign with a frying pan thing and walks around Yankee Stadium, as well as Fordham basketball and sometimes the St Pats parade. Essentailly he is the Yankees version of Sign Man. Okay, would you expect the Orioles to offer a fitting tribute the moment that Wild Bill character from the late 70s-early 80s passes (if he hasn't already) Watch that sarcasm Kase, I almost threw you on that list but since KCMets.com hasn't been active in quite some time...

KC Feb 11 2008 10:28 AM

My only point is that Karl's character recognizability to that of Doris' is pro- bably 1000 to 1 among people say forty and over. I wouldn't know Doris if she hit me over the head with her Tropicana Mets shopping bag give-away. Is Weissman even alive? I know Bryan was covering the Yanks at some point.

SteveJRogers Feb 11 2008 11:25 AM

FYI, [url=http://www.freddysez.com/]Freddy has a website[/url] I've seen Weissman on AOL IM every now and then.

Nymr83 Feb 11 2008 11:27 AM

]My only point is that Karl's character recognizability to that of Doris' is pro- bably 1000 to 1 among people say forty and over. the reverse ratio might be true for those under 40. anyone who listens to steve sommers knows who Doris was, i had seen pictures of Erhardt holding up that sign before i think, but i couln't have named him before being told he had died. but you're losing [what i think is] steve's point. its easy to honor someone who worked for the organization, but how do you draw the line between "celebrity fans" who have no affiliation?

KC Feb 11 2008 11:41 AM

Well I kinda buried myself by placing an age on it so I'll be nice and not argue with SteveJSez over it. I used to change the channel when Doris came on. (only kidding)

Nymr83 Feb 11 2008 11:45 AM

yes his yankee-fan-ness really came out there, but theres a thread about that in the RLF (untouched since october, are we being too nice lately?)

AG/DC Feb 11 2008 11:51 AM

This seems stupid to have to say, but Doris was in no way, shape, or form part of the show at Shea in the way that Ehrhardt was. The day the Mets mark a championship in part by printing, in their yearbook the next season, a montage of the most outstanding defensive plays from the World Series, around a centerpiece of a picture of John Cougar Lunchbucket, I'll review that position.

KC Feb 11 2008 12:09 PM

Ny83: >>>are we being too nice lately?<<< They upped my meds.

SteveJRogers Feb 11 2008 04:29 PM

AG/DC wrote: This seems stupid to have to say, but Doris was in no way, shape, or form part of the show at Shea in the way that Ehrhardt was. The day the Mets mark a championship in part by printing, in their yearbook the next season, a montage of the most outstanding defensive plays from the World Series, around a centerpiece of a picture of John Cougar Lunchbucket, I'll review that position. Fine I get it, there are no shots in the 2000 or 2001 Yearbooks or whatever of Weissman52's Playoff goatee, so despite essentially being the first Mets blogger, which is pretty much what his MetsOnline journal was, a precursor to what is known today as a weblog. Though honestly, lets just say a shot of Jonathan, with #52 being worn proudly and his goatee painted in blue and orange, did get into some montage, that would pretty much be on the same level as the countless of anonymous patrons whom have gotten their faces into Met yearbooks, programs, or any number of promotional items. Oh sure it would have gone up on the MOFO and would have gotten quite a good thread about it, depending on the crankiness of certain other posters or the Photoshopping skils of other posters, but in the grand scheme of things, its just another shot of Met patrons. The Mets aren't going to celebrate Bryan Hoch because he operated what probably was the first mega Met site on the internet, even before Mets.com even came into being. Despite the fact that Matt Cerrone, GaFaF and others appear on various SNY programs and such so don't just dissmiss the Internet Mets Community, and clearly I'll concede the Doris example as well since despite her 15 minutes (probably more due to her health problems more so than her frequent calls to New York sports radio stations) yeah she was just a voice mixed in with the countless number of callers to WFAN or 1050 ESPN or whatnot through the years. And of course Cow-Bell-Man is just an annoying, self aggrandizing Sign Man wannabe. But on the flip side, and yeah I'm going after your anti-sports radio, elitism here, she is remembered, fondly or otherwise, by those who did (and still do) listen to WFAN, that post on radio message boards, and such. No she really wasn't part of the Shea experience, I saw her once, but that was only after Jonathan Weissman stated the fact that he sat literally behind her one time in his journal, so her fame only comes from listening to Steve Somers/Joe Beningo/Jody McDonald after Met games, as she struggled through getting her points across through her coughing and always ending her calls "thank you for your time and courtesy." Was she the quintessential Met fan? No probably not. Did she represent what Ehrhardt represented? No not really. But if you consider listening to WFAN as part of your Met experience, then yeah she did add something to that experience by being one of the most known frequent Met fan callers.

Nymr83 Feb 11 2008 04:34 PM

I remember reading Hoch's site religiously back before MLB shut him down. I can't speak for old(er) people but for me, and i'd suspect many, many more around my age, Hoch is a far bigger part of our met-fandom than Erhardt could ever be.

Elster88 Feb 11 2008 04:45 PM

KC wrote: I used to change the channel when Doris came on. (only kidding) I wouldn't blame you if you were serious. The phlegm filled cough and the mucous-y voice were enough to unsettle the stomach. And all she did in the calls I heard was repeat exactly what the host had just said.

SteveJRogers Feb 11 2008 04:48 PM

="Elster88"] ="KC"]I used to change the channel when Doris came on. (only kidding) I wouldn't blame you if you were serious. The phlegm filled cough and the mucous-y voice were enough to unsettle the stomach. And all she did in the calls I heard was repeat exactly what the host had just said. Which is probably why she kept getting on! Plus when you are doing an overnight show, you can stall much more than you can during the regular portions of the day.

MFS62 Feb 11 2008 04:52 PM

They just announced on the SNY hot stove program that they are going to do a tribute to the sign man at the end of the show. Later

KC Feb 11 2008 04:56 PM

This has gotten way too drama queen. None of us would know each other if not for Bryan and he was the Grand- pappy of it all as I've acknowledged countless times here and there. As for what color Slurpee 52 had any given night, different strokes for dif- ferent folks.

SteveJRogers Feb 11 2008 05:14 PM

Agreed. Might be better off splitting this conversation into a new thread. I don't know, "Comparing Met Fandom Big Shots" or something?

AG/DC Feb 11 2008 09:02 PM

I don't know what we're talking about any more. I'm an elitist. That much is clear.

themetfairy Feb 11 2008 09:03 PM

If we're still talking about Karl Ehrhardt, Sal Marciano on the CW11 had a nice memorial tribute to him tonight.

G-Fafif Feb 12 2008 01:07 AM

MFS62 wrote: They just announced on the SNY hot stove program that they are going to do a tribute to the sign man at the end of the show. Caught it. A very nice grace note on their part.

G-Fafif Feb 14 2008 04:38 PM

Karl got a nice mention in this week's SI (print edition). It repeated the nugget about him waving "JOSE CAN YOU SEE?" when Jose Cardenal would strike out. I think this is the most notice Jose Cardenal's Met career has ever received.

AG/DC Feb 14 2008 10:11 PM

Jose stands out for me because he was acquired between games of a double header August 2, 1979 against the Phils. He was a Phil the first game and a Met the second. I remember that vividly even though he played in neither game. It would have been cool if he played in both, but no. But, somehow, I recall him appearing in the dugout, if nothing else, with number on his back but no name. The strange thing is that I remember this vividly, but I don't remember the news of the day interrupting the broadcast. According to UMDB, Bob Murphy announced it on the air, as Lee Mazzilli saw it on the scoreboard, that Thurman Munson was dead. Mazzilli turned away, trying to get his composure back, staring into the dugout, while Pete Rose stared at the scoreboard in disbelief. Sounds pretty memorable. Me, all I remember is the Mets acquiring some journeyman outfielder that would be too late to help in another dismal season.

KC Feb 23 2008 11:28 AM

I've been watching old 60's Mets promo films today. I forgot about the infamous "BYE BYE BIRDIES" ... loved that one.

Triple Dee Feb 24 2008 09:17 AM

KC wrote: I've been watching old 60's Mets promo films today. I forgot about the infamous "BYE BYE BIRDIES" ... loved that one. I always enjoyed the infamous "GO BACK ON STRIKE" from 1981. But one of the funnier ones came from the 1973 WS. (I can't remember where I obtained the following snippet, but credit for it should go to somebody else); Mike Andrews of the A's made a key error in Game 2 to help the Mets to victory. Charles Finley then tried to throw him off the roster claiming an injury which the Commissioner of Baseball turned down. In Game 3 at Shea after one of the A's players made an error Karl held up a sign "YOU'RE FIRED".