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The 25th Man

John Cougar Lunchbucket Feb 25 2008 11:47 AM

I'm sure that stuff like optioons will weigh heavily on the final decision, but encouraging to read that Angel Pagan made a case by sweeping the Mets' conditioning contests at camp yesterday. Adam Rubin in today's snooze said Pagan was unquestionably the best athlete at camp. Today in the intrasquad game Pagan tripled off my boy Bobby Parnell.

AG/DC Feb 25 2008 01:16 PM

That spot has Pagan written all over it. He brings athleticism, coverage against lefties , and still-youngness. He also allows you to pinch-hit Chavez if the situation calls for it and still have a defensive guy left over at the end of the day.

Benjamin Grimm Feb 25 2008 01:23 PM

Is Gotay the guy that he'd bump? Would that leave us with enough infielders on the bench? I suppose Marlon Anderson can be pressed into service. And we do have Easley.

sharpie Feb 25 2008 01:23 PM

Yeah, I've been considering him on the squad since we made that trade. It's Saenz and Gotay who are the 25th man. Pagan is 24th, maybe 23rd.

AG/DC Feb 25 2008 01:26 PM

If Pagan makes it, Marlon Anderson would have to be ready to play enough infield to make Gotay expendable. Pagan has an option year. The Goat does not.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Feb 25 2008 01:37 PM

I'll be piloting the Pagan Bandwagon from this point on, gentlemen. All aboardick.

metirish Feb 25 2008 01:44 PM

I'm thumbing a ride Bucket....Pagan came into camp in the " best shape of his life"..... Oh didn't John Maine finish second or something like that....which is probably not a good thing overall.

Benjamin Grimm Feb 25 2008 01:57 PM

I read that Maine finished first among the pitchers. Not sure where he ranked overall. I also read today that Maine, in the last couple of days, got on the Internet FOR THE FIRST TIME IN HIS LIFE. No wonder he doesn't know that his dad was a minor league pitcher!

AG/DC Feb 25 2008 02:00 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Feb 25 2008 02:06 PM

Benjamin Grimm wrote: I also read today that Maine, in the last couple of days, got on the Internet FOR THE FIRST TIME IN HIS LIFE. I think we need to teach him how to upload photos of his wife.

metirish Feb 25 2008 02:02 PM

So that myspace of Maine is not actually his account....I'm devastated...

Fman99 Feb 25 2008 02:52 PM

sharpie wrote: Yeah, I've been considering him on the squad since we made that trade. It's Saenz and Gotay who are the 25th man. Pagan is 24th, maybe 23rd. OK - I know that this doesn't have pictures or anything, like that other thread, but I don't see how this math is right. Starters (8): Schneider, Delgado, Castillo, Reyes, Wright, Alou, Beltran, Church Rotation (5): Johan, Pedro, Maine, Ollie, El Duque Bullpen (6): Wagner, Feliciano, Heilman, Schoewenwaste, Duaner, Sosa (swingman) Bench (4): Easley, Endy, Anderson, Castro That's 23 right there. I assume 24 and 25 would be one more hitter and one more reliever. So if Pagan and Gotay are the 24th/25th man, then the assumption is that the Mets aren't going to carry a 7th relief pitcher? I think the more logical assumption is that there will be a 5th bench player (Gotay or Pagan or whomever) and a 7th reliever (Wise, Register or candidate X). Or are you just saying that Pagan and Gotay are the 23rd and 24th best players in camp? Maybe I'm dense but I'm missing something here.

Gwreck Feb 25 2008 09:14 PM

I like the Goat. Quite a bit. But if Marlon Anderson and Damion Easley are guaranteed roster spots I don't see him getting to make the team. I suppose it's possible that the Mets could break camp with only 4 starting pitchers -- El Duque on the "DL" perhaps, as they don't need the 5th starter until April 12. They could try to sneak somebody back through waivers then, perhaps.

Triple Dee Feb 25 2008 10:44 PM

AG/DC wrote: [...]He also allows you to pinch-hit Chavez [...] Gee, I really hope they're not going to do that very often.

Triple Dee Feb 25 2008 11:13 PM

Gwreck wrote: I like the Goat. Quite a bit. But if Marlon Anderson and Damion Easley are guaranteed roster spots I don't see him getting to make the team. I don't believe this is necessarily true; I suspect Marlon will see very little time in the field. Damion and Goat will be the two primary back-up infielders. If Angel Pagan tears up ST offensively , the simple solution would be to send Chavez to NO (shock, horror). Endy's offense declined substantial last year (albeit precipitated by injury) and keeping him on the roster just for defense is really a waste.

Gwreck Feb 26 2008 12:27 AM

Triple Dee wrote: If Angel Pagan tears up ST offensively , the simple solution would be to send Chavez to NO (shock, horror). Endy's offense declined substantial last year (albeit precipitated by injury) and keeping him on the roster just for defense is really a waste. Whether it's right or not, I think Chavez' contract pretty much guarantees him a major league roster spot (as does Anderson, Castro and Easley).

Triple Dee Feb 26 2008 03:36 AM

Gwreck wrote: Whether it's right or not, I think Chavez' contract pretty much guarantees him a major league roster spot (as does Anderson, Castro and Easley). I was away on holidays last month, and didn't even realize Chavez had signed a new contract until now. I guess you are correct about his contract guaranteeing him playing time.

AG/DC Feb 26 2008 06:04 AM

Triple Dee wrote: ="AG/DC"][...]He also allows you to pinch-hit Chavez [...] Gee, I really hope they're not going to do that very often. There are situations (pitcher leading off, late innings, needing one run, righty on the mound) where he'd be the best guy. Backmanariffic.

smg58 Feb 26 2008 07:17 AM

I still like Pagan more as the 26th man than the 25th. He fills basically the same role that Chavez does, but he will likely spend a lot of time up with the Mets regardless. The Mets wore out their pen with seven relievers last year, so there is no way in hell they are going with six this time. Sanchez appears healthy enough to be safely penciled in as the fifth guy. Contract or no, Shoeneweis did nothing last year that should assure him of anything, but I guess he's a front-runner for a remaining spot unless one of Lugo/Smith/Padilla/Muniz/Collazo/Register clearly outperforms him. Matt Wise likewise has a major-league deal and is a front-runner for a spot, but I think it's possible that somebody could push him out of the way too. Anderson and Easley can do what Gotay can do, so I definitely think an effort should have been made to move Gotay and add a righty bat with some pop. One guy who intrigues me is Justin Huber, who is out of options with the Royals. Sosa is still a free agent option, but I'd need a reason to think his past won't become a distraction before I'd bite.

Triple Dee Feb 26 2008 07:41 AM

smg58 wrote: [...] Contract or no, Shoeneweis did nothing last year that should assure him of anything[...] Schoeneweis was very effective against Lefties last season; [list] I Split G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR BB IBB SO HBP SH SF ROE GDP SB CS Pk BA OBP SLG OPS BAbip sOPS+ tOPS+ Split +-+------------+---+----+----+---+---+--+--+--+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+--+--+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+------------+ vs RHB as LH 59 157 136 25 43 9 1 8 17 4 20 0 3 1 3 3 5 0 0 .316 .390 .574 .963 .321 140 140 vs LHB as LH 64 108 93 6 19 4 0 0 11 1 21 3 1 0 0 3 1 1 1 .204 .308 .247 .556 .264 [/list:u] Sorry for the crap formatting -- I've gotta figure out how to post tables. Anyway, the point is he is still very effective if used only against LHB. The problem is RHBs absolutely murder him -- the difference is quite staggering. Even more bewildering is the fact Willie made him face way more RHBs than LHBs. I just can't understand that.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Feb 26 2008 08:00 AM

The Show was also considerably more effective in August and September than he'd been in the first few months. He had a bad year on balance, and was prolly too big a reach overall, but I wouldn;t toss him overboard yet.

metirish Feb 26 2008 08:20 AM

Schoeneweis was carrying an injury which can't have helped, got that fixed I think after the season, expecting a good year from him.

Triple Dee Feb 26 2008 10:07 PM

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: The Show was also considerably more effective in August and September than he'd been in the first few months. He had a bad year on balance, and was prolly too big a reach overall, but I wouldn;t toss him overboard yet. Schoeneweis performed as well as should have been expected. His ERA of 5.06 was at "career level" (5.01); he's always been hit hard by righties, and he's always dominated lefties. The fact is he was grossly misused by Willie. He should be the situational lefty in the bullpen, not Feliciano. Feliciano can actually get right-handed hitters out.

smg58 Feb 27 2008 08:06 AM

The Mets needed far too many innings from the pen last year, so pitching Schoeneweis against righthanded betters was unavoidable to a large degree. And if only Santana goes above 200 IP, and 85 quality innings from Duaner Sanchez turns out to be too much to ask for, we'll be in the same situation this year too. I'm not disputing that Schoenweis can get lefties out, but I think it's a fair question to ask if the Mets can afford to carry somebody who cannot be counted on to face a righthanded batter in a meaningful situation. And I also think it's likely that at least one of the other pitchers in camp hoping to get a spot is better.

Frayed Knot Feb 27 2008 08:24 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Feb 27 2008 08:30 AM

"{Schoeneweis} was grossly misused by Willie. He should be the situational lefty in the bullpen, not Feliciano." It looks like both SS & PF were used about the same, both in terms of innings/outing PF = 78 appearences/64 innings or .821 IP/app; SS = 70 appearences/59 IP or .843 IP/app and in terms of the batters they faced: both = 59.2% vs RHB I agree that ideally Schoeneweis should have as large a pct of batters faced as LHB as possible. But, like SMG said, it isn't always possible, particularly last season. Willie also seems determined (at least in his public pronouncements) to NOT want to declare his relievers as specialists. He'd rather have them in the mindset that they should expect to be called in any situation.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Feb 27 2008 08:28 AM

So would I. I can't look at a relievers ERA one year to the next and conclude he had an average season for him, even if he did. I don't think that negates the fact that he was better in the final few months than in the first few.

smg58 Feb 27 2008 10:31 AM

I agree that he finished the season better than he started, but a 3.38 ERA in August and a 4.66 ERA in September are impressive only in a very relative sense. I wouldn't be against Schoeneweis holding on to his spot in the pen if he earns it this spring, but I think his overall performance last year entitles him to no advantage in a competition for a spot against the other likely competitors.

Triple Dee Feb 28 2008 06:17 AM

Frayed Knot wrote: " Willie also seems determined (at least in his public pronouncements) to NOT want to declare his relievers as specialists. He'd rather have them in the mindset that they should expect to be called in any situation. The problem is that Showeneweis has never, and I mean NEVER, been able to pitch to right-handed hitters. Just to give you some idea, in his career year with the Blue Jays (a year that it is probably he was taking PEDs, btw) RHBs hit .306/.405/.389 against him (compared with .316 /.390/.574 last year ). Fwiw, I don't believe Willie will change his approach to bullpen management. I would have no objection for Show to be sent down to AAA for the remainder of his contract, but that's not going to happen. So the only tenable solution is limit his exposure to right-handed hitters.

smg58 Feb 28 2008 08:11 AM

Well, Willie Collazo may have already blown whatever chance he had of making the Opening Day roster.

Triple Dee Feb 28 2008 08:25 AM

smg58 wrote: Well, Willie Collazo may have already blown whatever chance he had of making the Opening Day roster. Yeah, it's not like I would have had a ton of money on him making it.