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="AG/DC":q3sldose]Eh... I see what you want here, but that time frame includes <i>Hard Day's Night</i> and <i>Rubber Soul</i>.
<i>Help!</i> also.[/quote:q3sldose]
Admittedly it's a bit of a stretch, but it's also not the knockout one might expect considering the strength of thier overall catalogs. The first few furlongs right after breaking out of the gate was relatively even.
DC5's problem was that they never seemed to break out of their early success formula and branch out the way the Beatles did. Reportedly Clark ran the group somewhat autocratically which didn't lend itself to the more collabrative growth of the Fab Four.
What suxx in all this is that Smith won't be around for DC5's induction into the R&R HoF this year. Also that there's a story around where they were voted in to last year's class but then bumped when some manipulators decided that the lineup would look better with a rap act included and DC5 was knocked off in favor of Grandmaster Flash.
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Vic Sage
Mar 03 2008 10:36 AM
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I liked, but did not love, the DC5. Their songs were catchy, but tended toward a square, thumping 4/4 sameness i ultimately found dull. Still, they were unique amongst the Brits of the time as a drum-centric band, with some bluesy sax riffs, as opposed to the many guitar bands of the time.
But comparing them to the Beatles seems silly to me. Even just comparing them during the DC5 peak, from 10/63 - 5/67, the DC5 put 18 songs in Billboard's top 40. The beatles had almost twice as many, including 14 songs that went to #1 during that period. CD5 had exactly ONE #1 single ("Over and Over") in the U.S... ever.
Yes, they were both commercially successful Brit bands with teenybopper followings of the same period but, even leaving the more interesting and adventurous musical efforts of the later Beatles period, the DC5 were always the paler, punier, tinnier act and were never in the same league... artistically, commercially or critically.
I guess you could make an argument they were the Billy Doran to the Beatles' Ryan Sandberg (comparable players early in their careers before diverging widely). And they are being inducted into the R&R HOF this year (for whatever that's worth), and they do deserve more recognition (and airplay) than they seem to get nowadays. But frankly I prefer the Stones, Kinks and Who (even The Animals, and some others) as more likely standard-bearers for the British Invasion 2nd bananas to this narrow, bland, repititious quintet.
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sharpie
Mar 03 2008 12:28 PM
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What Vic said. They lead the class of the 3rd Tier of British Invasion groups such as Herman's Hermits, Gerry & the Pacemakers, etc. but can't be put in the same camp as the Kinks or the Who.
Tier 1 -- Beatles, Rolling Stones
Tier 2 -- Who, Kinks, Yardbirds, Animals
Tier 3 -- Dave Clark 5, Gerry & the Pacemakers, Herman's Hermits
I would be amenable to moving the Who and the Kinks to the first tier and graduating DC5 into the second tier (though at the bottom of that tier as opposed to the top of tier 3).
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AG/DC
Mar 03 2008 12:49 PM
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What tier am I, cousin?
<ol><li>Peter and Gordon</li>
<li>Billy J. Kramer and the Dakotas</li>
<li>The Troggs</li>
<li>The Hollies</li>
<li>The Zombies</li>
<li>The Mindbenders</li>
<li>The Searchers</li>
<li>Freddie and the Dreamers</li>
<li>Cream</li>
<li>The Small Faces</li>
<li>The Jimi Hendrix Experience (side question: are we, in fact, a BI group?)</li>
<li>The Spencer Davis Group</li>
<li>The Move</li>
<li>Manfred Mann</li>
<li>Chad and Jeremy</li></li>
<li>Pink Floyd</li>
<li>Moody Blues</li>
<li>The Tornados</li>
<li>The Pretty Things</li>
<li>Them</li></ol>
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sharpie
Mar 03 2008 01:16 PM
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I'm moving Who and Kinks to Tier 1 and DC5 to Tier 2. Therefore:
Peter and Gordon 3
Billy J. Kramer and the Dakotas 3
The Troggs 3
The Hollies 2
The Zombies 2
The Mindbenders 3
The Searchers 3
Freddie and the Dreamers 3
Cream 2
The Small Faces 2 (only because they morphed into both the Faces and Humble Pie)
The Jimi Hendrix Experience (side question: are we, in fact, a BI group?) Not a BI group
The Spencer Davis Group 3
The Move 3
Manfred Mann 3
Chad and Jeremy 3
Pink Floyd 2
Moody Blues 2
The Tornados 3
The Pretty Things 3
Them 3
Another tier 2: Traffic
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Vic Sage
Mar 03 2008 03:59 PM
Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Mar 03 2008 04:53 PM
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Tiers of the British Invaders -
The UK rock/pop bands that broke thru in the US during the mid-60s, ranked by tiers, as follows:
#1 -- the Big 3
The Beatles - everybody else is 2nd
Rolling Stones - well, they're 1-A. Some would put them over the Fab 4, but i don't talk to those types of people.
The Who - and they're certainly a close 1-B
#2 -- just short of paradise
The Kinks - great band, but not as successful in the US as the Big 3.
The Animals - Eric Burdon's HOF band was seminal, but not as long-lasting or prolific as the Kinks
#3 -- critically acclaimed and enduring
Eric Clapton - in a series of supergroups, he showed everybody how to do it (The Yardbirds / John Mayall & the Bluesbreakers / Cream / Blind Faith / Derek & the Dominoes)
Steve Winwood - He's no Clapton, but this Brit wunderkind cranked it out for a long time, with alot of different lineups (The Spencer Davis Group / Traffic / Blind Faith)
Van Morrison (Them) - "Them" only had a brief run, but Van went on and on thereafter, like a soulful, celtic energizer bunny
#4 -- Hitmeisters of the Merseybeat:
Herman's Hermits -- silly songs, but Peter Noone put 17 of them in the top 40 (including a few #1s) during his late-60s heyday.
The Dave Clark Five -- This quirky, catchy quintet was big there for a while
The Zombies - Rod Argent had a big impact for a short period, with some of the biggest all-time songs
The Hollies - with Graham Nash, alot of top 40 songs in the late 60s
The Searchers - yet another Merseybeat group with a bunch of top 40 hits in the mid-late 60s
#5 -- something's not quite right
Moody Blues -- a string of hits in the late 60s, plus an all-time classic; and they kept kicking around thereafter. But i hate them.
Donovan - His folky psychodelia has gone in and out of style over the years, and certainly not "rock", but there is no denying his peaks and his influence.
Peter and Gordon - they had alot of hits with McCartney's outtakes
Chad & Jeremy - for a brief flash (1964-66), they were a pop culture phenomenon. then "poof".
#6 -- 1 hit (or a few hit) wonders
Billy J. Kramer and the Dakotas
Wayne Fontana & the Mindbenders
Freddie and the Dreamers
Manfred Mann
The Troggs
The Tornadoes
Tremeloes
Regarding some of the other bands mentioned:
Pink Floyd - during their Syd Barrett era of the 60s, they had little impact in the U.S. They took off as a 1970-s post-invasion band.
The Move / ELO - ditto
Small Faces - They were big in the UK, but had little impact in the US, ever.
The Pretty Things - ditto
Hendrix - it would seem to go without saying that, in order to qualify as part of the British Invasion, you'd need to have been British.
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John Cougar Lunchbucket
Mar 03 2008 04:03 PM
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wham
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Vic Sage
Mar 03 2008 04:04 PM
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I don't think WHAM qualifies either.
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sharpie
Mar 03 2008 04:04 PM
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Donovan can't be in the #5 tier, certainly better and more important than Chad & Jeremy. In this configuration I'd put the Tier 3 gang into Tier 2 and move Donovan and Pink Floyd in #3 (Syd Barrett era PF didn't have US hits but were huge in the UK and important there -- where would David Bowie be without them?).
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Vic Sage
Mar 03 2008 04:15 PM
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I agree about Donovan; i only dropped him down because of the non-rock nature of his music. I suppose we should also include Petula Clark and Dusty Springfield, then.
As for Pink Floyd in tier #3, your comment that "Syd Barrett era PF didn't have US hits but were huge in the UK and important there -- where would David Bowie be without them?" seems irrelevant. If you want to talk about influences, that way lies madness. I was talking about those groups that actually had a significant impact on the U.S. market of that period. The Syd Barrett FLOYD era was not significant in terms of U.S. sales, and FLOYD'S impact as a band wasn't really felt HERE until the 70s, as part of the prog-rock era, with TULL, ELP, ZEPPELIN, etc.
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RealityChuck
Mar 03 2008 07:28 PM
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| ="Vic Sage"]Hendrix - it would seem to go without saying that, in order to qualify as part of the British Invasion, you'd need to have been British. |
But the Jimi Hendrix Experience was 2/3rds British.
And the Bonzo Dog Band is definitely tier two, though unknown in the US.
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AG/DC
Mar 03 2008 07:41 PM
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Van Morrison was Oirish.
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sharpie
Mar 04 2008 06:48 AM
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Donovan is in the rock camp, Dusty Springfield isn't. Hurdy Gurdy Man, Season of the Witch, Sunshine Superman, all rock songs.
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AG/DC
Mar 04 2008 07:19 AM
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Well, rock<i>-ish</i>.
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Willets Point
Mar 04 2008 07:50 AM
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="sharpie":24friaai]Donovan is in the rock camp, Dusty Springfield isn't. Hurdy Gurdy Man, Season of the Witch, Sunshine Superman, all rock songs.[/quote:24friaai]
"Son of a Preacher Man," "Wishin' and Hopin'," and "I Only Want to be With You" all rock.
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sharpie
Mar 04 2008 08:49 AM
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Dusty wouldn't have put herself in with the rock 'n' rollers. Donovan would have (and does). Jimmy Page played on Hurdy Gurdy Man f'chrissake.
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AG/DC
Mar 04 2008 10:26 AM
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Dusty, like the man who inspired this thread, died in between her election to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and her induction.
She rocked me more than, say, Diana Ross ever did.
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sharpie
Mar 04 2008 10:41 AM
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Not taking anything away from Dusty. She was great. She didn't hang with the rockers, though.
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Frayed Knot
Mar 04 2008 11:09 AM
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="AG/DC":e4290fnb]Dusty rocked me more than, say, Diana Ross ever did.[/quote:e4290fnb]
Or Madonna
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AG/DC
Mar 12 2008 10:11 AM
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The second half of <a href="http://abcnews.go.com/Business/SiliconInsider/story?id=750595" target="blank">this article</a> is a poorly constructed argument along the lines of the title, but the first half is a passionate argument to knock the Zombies up a tier.
Bonus Rod Argent fact: He was Tanita Tikaram's producer and keyboardist.
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Willets Point
Mar 12 2008 10:23 AM
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What's your name, who's your daddy, did he raise you rich like me?
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sharpie
Mar 12 2008 10:24 AM
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I've got no problem with moving the Zombies up the list. Great short-lived career.
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Vic Sage
Mar 13 2008 09:39 AM
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Tiers of the British Invaders - Revised
To qualify, the band (including lead artist) must have:
1 - come from England, Scotland, Wales, or even Ireland;
2 - been known primarily as rock or pop group; and
3 - Then came to the U.S. in mid-60s and had at least 1 top 40 hit
#1 -- the Big 3
*The Beatles - everybody else is 2nd
*Rolling Stones - well, they're 1-A. Some would put them over the Fab 4, but i don't talk to those types of people.
*The Who - and they're certainly a close 1-B
#2 -- just short of paradise
*The Kinks - great band, but not as successful in the US as the Big 3.
*Eric Clapton - in a series of supergroups, he showed everybody how to do it (The Yardbirds / John Mayall & the Bluesbreakers / Cream / Blind Faith / Derek & the Dominoes)
*Steve Winwood - He's no Clapton, but this Brit wunderkind cranked it out for a long time, with alot of different lineups (The Spencer Davis Group / Traffic / Blind Faith)
#3 -- short-lived, but critically acclaimed, with enduring legacies
*The Animals - Eric Burdon's HOF band was seminal, but not as long-lasting or prolific as the Kinks. He had a bit of a solo career, too.
*Van Morrison (Them) - "Them" only had a brief run, but Van went on and on thereafter, like a soulful, celtic energizer bunny
*The Zombies - Rod Argent had a big impact for a short period, with some of the biggest all-time songs, and ARGENT held its head up.
*The Hollies - alot of top 40 songs in the late 60s, before Graham Nash teamed up with CSNY.
#4a -- off the beaten track
*Donovan - His folky psychodelia has gone in and out of style over the years, but there is no denying his peaks and his influence. Rock? Some say "yea".
*Dusty Springfield - MOR or soulful rocker? Both, but either way, alot of hits and a long career
*Moody Blues -- a string of hits in the late 60s, plus an all-time classic; and they kept their unique orchestral sound kicking around thereafter.
#4b -- pure hitmeisters of the Mersey beat:
*Herman's Hermits -- silly songs, but Peter Noone put 17 of them in the top 40 (including a few #1s) during his late-60s heyday.
*The Dave Clark Five -- This quirky, catchy quintet was big there for a while
*The Searchers - yet another Merseybeat group with a bunch of top 40 hits in the mid-late 60s.
*Peter and Gordon - they had alot of hits with McCartney's outtakes
*Chad & Jeremy - for a brief flash (1964-66), they were a pop culture phenomenon. then "poof".
#5 -- 1 hit (or few-hit) wonders
Billy J. Kramer and the Dakotas
Wayne Fontana & the Mindbenders
Freddie and the Dreamers
Manfred Mann
The Troggs
The Tornadoes
Tremeloes
Regarding some of the other bands mentioned:
Pink Floyd - during their Syd Barrett era of the 60s, they had little impact in the U.S. They took off as a 1970-s post-invasion band.
The Move / ELO - ditto
Small Faces - They were big in the UK, but had little impact in the US, ever.
The Pretty Things - ditto
The Bonzo Dog Band - ditto ditto
Hendrix - Band may have been Brits, but he most definitely was not. You don't get to invade your own country.
Petula Clark - more MOR than pop
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sharpie
Mar 13 2008 10:05 AM
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I'd move Van Morrison in with Eric Clapton and Steve Winwood --- many hits, enduring career. Otherwise this is very good.
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Willets Point
Mar 13 2008 10:12 AM
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What about bands from Isle of Man, Jersey and Guernsey? They're far more British than bands from Ireland.
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AG/DC
Mar 13 2008 10:18 AM
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Best American Bands from the 60s who sounded like British invaders.
<ol><li>Paul Revere and the Raiders</li>
<li>The Seeds</li>
<li>The Sir Douglas Quintet</li></ol>
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Vic Sage
Mar 13 2008 01:18 PM
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="Willets Point":26w0i0se]What about bands from Isle of Man, Jersey and Guernsey? They're far more British than bands from Ireland.[/quote:26w0i0se]
if they had top 40 hits, name them and their in.
I originally had put Morrison in the tier with Clapton and Winwood, but he just seemed to me more akin to the next tier, with Eric Burdon, Graham Nash and Rod Argent. "Them" didn't last long and Van's success was mostly as a solo artist later on.
I don't know. I guess i could put him back up to Tier 2. Or, i could exclude him altogether, as WP seemse to suggest, since Van's Oirishness should disqualify him from the "British Invasion" 60s band list, like Hendrix.
What do peeps think?
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sharpie
Mar 13 2008 03:04 PM
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If you're crediting Clapton's solo career and the Dominoes, those were all in the '70's as well. The point is that he started in the '60's, had hits with Them (and "Brown Eyed Girl") in the '60's and still can sell out pretty big concert halls. I think he rates above Steve Winwood for that matter.
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Vic Sage
Mar 14 2008 08:34 AM
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Tiers of the British Invaders - Final version
To qualify, the band (including lead artist) must have:
1 - come from England, Scotland, Wales, or even Ireland;
2 - been known primarily as rock or pop group; and
3 - Then came to the U.S. in mid-60s and had at least 1 top 40 hit
#1 -- the Big 3
1) The Beatles
2) Rolling Stones
3) The Who
#2 -- just short of paradise
4) The Kinks
5) Eric Clapton - The Yardbirds / John Mayall & the Bluesbreakers / Cream / Blind Faith / Derek & the Dominoes
6) Van Morrison /Them
7) Steve Winwood- The Spencer Davis Group / Traffic / Blind Faith
#3 -- short-lived, but critically acclaimed, with enduring legacies
8) The Animals / Eric Burdon
9) The Zombies / Rod Argent
10) The Hollies / Graham Nash
#4a -- off the beaten track
11) Donovan
12) Dusty Springfield
13) Moody Blues
#4b -- pure hitmeisters of the Mersey beat:
14) Herman's Hermits
15) The Dave Clark Five
16) The Searchers
17) Peter and Gordon
18) Chad & Jeremy
#5 -- 1 hit (or few-hit) wonders
19) Billy J. Kramer and the Dakotas
20) Wayne Fontana & the Mindbenders
21) Freddie and the Dreamers
22) Manfred Mann
23) The Troggs
24) The Tornadoes
25) Tremeloes
Regarding some of other bands:
* Pink Floyd - during their Syd Barrett era of the 60s, they had little impact in the U.S. They took off as a 1970-s post-invasion band.
* The Move / ELO - ditto
* Small Faces - They were big in the UK, but had little impact in the US, ever.
* The Pretty Things - ditto
* The Bonzo Dog Band - ditto ditto
* Hendrix - Band may have been Brits, but he most definitely was not. You don't get to invade your own country.
* Petula Clark - more MOR than pop; not quite Dusty Springfield.
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batmagadanleadoff
Mar 11 2009 11:45 AM
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| ="Vic Sage"]Tiers of the British Invaders - Final version
To qualify, the band (including lead artist) must have:
1 - come from England, Scotland, Wales, or even Ireland;
2 - been known primarily as rock or pop group; and
3 - Then came to the U.S. in mid-60s and had at least 1 top 40 hit
#1 -- the Big 3
1) The Beatles
2) Rolling Stones
3) The Who
#2 -- just short of paradise
4) The Kinks
5) Eric Clapton - The Yardbirds / John Mayall & the Bluesbreakers / Cream / Blind Faith / Derek & the Dominoes
6) Van Morrison /Them
7) Steve Winwood- The Spencer Davis Group / Traffic / Blind Faith
#3 -- short-lived, but critically acclaimed, with enduring legacies
8) The Animals / Eric Burdon
9) The Zombies / Rod Argent
10) The Hollies / Graham Nash
#4a -- off the beaten track
11) Donovan
12) Dusty Springfield
13) Moody Blues
#4b -- pure hitmeisters of the Mersey beat:
14) Herman's Hermits
15) The Dave Clark Five
16) The Searchers
17) Peter and Gordon
18) Chad & Jeremy
#5 -- 1 hit (or few-hit) wonders
19) Billy J. Kramer and the Dakotas
20) Wayne Fontana & the Mindbenders
21) Freddie and the Dreamers
22) Manfred Mann
23) The Troggs
24) The Tornadoes
25) Tremeloes
Regarding some of other bands:
* Pink Floyd - during their Syd Barrett era of the 60s, they had little impact in the U.S. They took off as a 1970-s post-invasion band.
* The Move / ELO - ditto
* Small Faces - They were big in the UK, but had little impact in the US, ever.
* The Pretty Things - ditto
* The Bonzo Dog Band - ditto ditto
* Hendrix - Band may have been Brits, but he most definitely was not. You don't get to invade your own country.
* Petula Clark - more MOR than pop; not quite Dusty Springfield. |
I don't know how I stumbled onto this post, but I did. Nice summary.
If I may nitpick one minor point about Eric Clapton, though --- I'm pretty sure that the Yardbirds and Mayall's Bluesbreakers never toured the States while Clapton was a member. And if you're going to count EC's 1969/1970 Blind Faith/Dominoes period, then wouldn't you have to make some room at the top tier for Led Zeppelin? You might be able to shoehorn LZ onto the list anyway, based upon their earlier metamorphosis from the "New Yardbirds", who used to be the regular old Yardbirds before Page, and then Plant joined up.
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