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="seawolf17":3w1xmv5u]I completely agree, but how do you stop it? You wonder if it'll get so bad that free agents don't want to come here any more.[/quote:3w1xmv5u]
Get your posse at the game and start chanting, "SHUT UP, BOO BIRDS! Clap! Clap! Clap-clap-clap!"
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seawolf17
Apr 16 2008 08:49 AM
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I hate the clapping after the other team successfully executes the sac bunt too. Yes, you got an out, but there's a guy in scoring position now.
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metirish
Apr 16 2008 08:52 AM
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I think Reyes on third with no outs and not getting him home is boo worthy , booing Heilman is just so bleh now, it's like it's expected , I don't like it mind as he has been just about brilliant the last few seasons.
What will happen when there is a more corporate crowd going to CitiField , I suspect the booing will be more as they probably will be clueless types there on the company dime.
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AG/DC
Apr 16 2008 08:57 AM
Re: Have Mets fans collectively lost their minds?
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="Benjamin Grimm":2ttxft6c]I hope that most Mets fans aren't thinking that way, that it's just a loud minority.[/quote:2ttxft6c]
Yeah, but public boorishness is contagious. So is loutishness, oafishness, and philistinism, for that matter. I also fear an outbreak of lummoxishness.
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TheOldMole
Apr 16 2008 08:58 AM
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Or they'll boo at even more inappropriate places than they do now.
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Farmer Ted
Apr 16 2008 08:59 AM
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When SNY puts a poll on the screen during the game asking fans if there too much booing...yeah, it's gone too far.
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soupcan
Apr 16 2008 09:04 AM
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Have we collectively lost our minds? No, because I haven't.
Why are the people that are booing booing?
I think there are a lot of reasons. Keith and Gary touched on it a bit last night but they missed a lot.
Gary mentioned salaries and escalating costs to the fan. Keith however dismissed that saying that "the casual fan is the one that boos and casual fans attend 10-15 games a year." Casual fans attend 10-15 games a year? Keith obviously has no concept as to what a casual fan is and how much it costs to attend that many games.
They attributed most of it to the proliferation of the sportstalk radio and the internet. Giving fans more outlets to express their frustration which they said, makes the frustrated fan feel emboldened to gripe.
I think that adds to it but I believe that a HUGE reason is money. The salaries are astronomical, the costs of going to a game are outrageous and everything associated with the game (food, souvenirs, apparel, cable TV) is designed to extract every last cent that they can out of you.
So when a $10,000,000.00 per year player or $200,000,000.00 team fails in a certain situation, the fan who has been gouged mercilessily to be in the park feels cheated and reacts accordingly.
I would also say that most fans aren't very sophisticated about the intricacies of the game and don't understand that a bloop double is not necessarily the pitcher's fault.
I think that last season's collapse is also a factor.
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Benjamin Grimm
Apr 16 2008 09:15 AM
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="soupcan":2iqxwtip]Keith however dismissed that saying that "the casual fan is the one that boos and casual fans attend 10-15 games a year." Casual fans attend 10-15 games a year? Keith obviously has no concept as to what a casual fan is and how much it costs to attend that many games.
[/quote:2iqxwtip]
I caught that too. 10 to 15 games is pretty hard core, especially given how expensive it's become.
A casual fan goes once or twice a year. Hell, <i>I</i> go once or twice a year, and I'm <i>more</i> than a casual fan.
Keith is so out of touch with the common people that he might as well run for President.
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seawolf17
Apr 16 2008 09:15 AM
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What soup said.
clapclapclapclapclapclapclapclapclapclapclapclap
Keith is horribly out of touch. Blame it on the bloggers, Keith. Moron.
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John Cougar Lunchbucket
Apr 16 2008 09:23 AM
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A whole generation of Stupid Mooks is part of the problem. I also think some of it could be curtailed by better marketing by the team if it had any sense of its own history.
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themetfairy
Apr 16 2008 09:29 AM
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="soupcan":48awzdsb]
I think that last season's collapse is also a factor.[/quote:48awzdsb]
Yup© There's still a fugly pall over the place that dates back to last September.
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AG/DC
Apr 16 2008 09:32 AM
Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Apr 16 2008 09:34 AM
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Nonsense. Mets fans opened 2006 by acting like Mooks and 2005 was blamed. The season progressed well and they let up, and started booing again to start 2007. Into every life, rain must fall.
Twenty nine of 30 teams come up short every year. Folks need to deal with that realistically.
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Benjamin Grimm
Apr 16 2008 09:34 AM
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I agree. Everyone needs a large dose of perspective.
I just don't have any idea of how to administer it.
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AG/DC
Apr 16 2008 09:41 AM
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Gross lack of perspective.
A shortsighted team marketing to shortsighted mooks.
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Gwreck
Apr 16 2008 09:53 AM
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="soupcan":3serezod]I believe that a HUGE reason is money. The salaries are astronomical, the costs of going to a game are outrageous and everything associated with the game (food, souvenirs, apparel, cable TV) is designed to extract every last cent that they can out of you.[/quote:3serezod]
Agreed. I touched on this a little in whatever recap I did of the opening day game but the overwhelming feeling I felt from Shea was that people are *angry.* Going to the game was never particularly cheap but coming into 2008 there was the largest ticket price increase in the past 15 years along with a concessions price increase to boot.
Add to the fact that we have this state-of-the-art stadium being built next door which -- I believe, from my own unscientific methods - many fans feel they are not going to be welcome in. Seating capacity is going down by 14,000 *seats* and they're not getting rid of the expensive ones. I've been to five games so far this year, sitting all in the Mezz or Upper Levels, and each time there were a lot of people expressing dismay that it will be the last year they will be able to go to games like they do now. Hell, I went to the CitiField "Preview Center" before Saturday's game and it was depressing as crap. I'm glad I got to see what those seats and views were like now because I don't think they'll be in my budget range anytime in the forseeable future.
All of this would could have been ameliorated, however, if we could have just made the playoffs last year...oh, wait. Nevermind.
The booing is still stupid. Why it is happening, however, makes a lot of sense to me.
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batmagadanleadoff
Apr 16 2008 10:15 AM
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="Benjamin Grimm":11mdxf6w]="soupcan":11mdxf6w]I caught that too. 10 to 15 games is pretty hard core, especially given how expensive it's become.
A casual fan goes once or twice a year. Hell, <i>I</i> go once or twice a year, and I'm <i>more</i> than a casual fan.
Keith is so out of touch with the common people that he might as well run for President.[/quote:11mdxf6w][/quote:11mdxf6w]
I personally know a few super hard core fans who haven't been to Shea in a few years. It could be a money thing. Not just baseball salaries, but that the whole economy is struggling. It appears to me that a married couple earning the average salary needs to spend almost an entire week's worth of wages to take their two kids to a ballgame, assuming that they also intend to make the usual expenditures for food and souvenirs.
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AG/DC
Apr 16 2008 10:20 AM
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I understand the money complaints, but please understand that (1) you'd be paying what you'd be paying whether Delgado was making twenty million or forty thousand, and (2) a different economy would still include weak grounders to second.
If you want to boo somebody for the price of baseball, boo the Lords of the Realm for setting up a system that protects teams from market competition and the gummint that allows it. Support indy teams and encourage them to flood into major markets and increase the compatitive level of their teams until it shakes baseball to it's core.
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Frayed Knot
Apr 16 2008 10:39 AM
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Met fans, in my mind, have long been an angry bunch, a condition that's certainly been aggravated by the success of the cross-town rivals over the last decade or more (and to a lesser extent by the cross-division rivals in Georgia) added to by last year's late season collapse.
At this point they (the loud minority perhaps, but a not inconsequential one) are simply looking for things to be pissed off at; examples:
- Cheering Santana wildly upon his introduction and entrence ... only to boo when he has the gall not to toss a shutout in his first start
- the over-the-top reaction to the short-term tribulations of the likes of Heilman (as well as virtually every closer who's ever been here) caused by a total lack of perspective as to the folly of assuming a reliever's perfection
- demanding instant firings of managers & coaches for arguable and minor points of strategy.
and yadda, yadda, yadda
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metirish
Apr 16 2008 10:39 AM
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Is this a league wide problem I wonder, is David Ortiz getting booed in Boston , he has hit nothing this season, so far. Philly fans boo everything, booed Wagner when he was there after he stopped hitting 100mph on the gun , surely the Tigers players are getting booed mightily .
It can't be just the sophisticated NY baseball fans doing the booing.
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batmagadanleadoff
Apr 16 2008 10:47 AM
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="AG/DC":1oys23xk]I understand the money complaints, but please understand that (1) you'd be paying what you'd be paying whether Delgado was making twenty million or forty thousand, and (2) a different economy would still include weak grounders to second..[/quote:1oys23xk]
Yeah, the game's the same. But fans with less money in their pockets are angrier. Even if they brought it on themselves in part, either by buying houses they couldn't afford, or by spending $15 bucks for a hot dog and a beer at a ballpark.
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Nymr83
Apr 16 2008 11:14 AM
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="seawolf17":4955jues]I hate the clapping after the other team successfully executes the sac bunt too. Yes, you got an out, but there's a guy in scoring position now.[/quote:4955jues]
thats a trade i'll usually take, unless the weak-hitting pitcher was the bunter.
i don't really want to delve into the whole booing topic for the umpteenth time, except to say that i just haven't heard it. theres nothing like the booing down the stretch last year, theres no "fire isiah" chant, theres nobody printing up t-shirts that say "benitez blows" "cedeno cucks" "phire phillips" etc (as there were back around 2002). i'll be there tommorow night so maybe i'll hear some actual booing then, but i just dont think theres anything worth mentioning right no, at least nothing audible over the radio (which there has been in years past)
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Benjamin Grimm
Apr 16 2008 11:18 AM
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I took my two kids to the game on Sunday, and the whole experience, including tickets, concessions, souvenirs, gas, parking, tolls, etc. (not all of which went to the Mets, of course) easily cost me over $200, perhaps close to $300.
I'm fortunate enough to be able to blow that kind of money on an afternoon's entertainment every once in a while.
If that $250 or so wasn't disposable income, I wouldn't have gone. I would have taken my kids to play miniature golf instead, and caught the game on TV.
So while I agree that everything is too expensive, it's not compulsory to go and spend that money. Anyone who's at the game should be able to afford it. If they can't afford it, they're the ones who ought to be booed for spending money they can't spare.
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Nymr83
Apr 16 2008 11:22 AM
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i'm going tommorw night and i'll likely spend about $15. its a "value" game so you get in to the upper deck for $5. i'll be splitting parking 4 ways so thats another $4 and i'll spend $6 on a sandwhich before the game that the nice people at shea (unlike MSG) are quite happy to let me bring inside. i've got no complaints.
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Gwreck
Apr 16 2008 11:39 AM
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="Benjamin Grimm":2xee7b3s]So while I agree that everything is too expensive, it's not compulsory to go and spend that money. Anyone who's at the game should be able to afford it. If they can't afford it, they're the ones who ought to be booed for spending money they can't spare.[/quote:2xee7b3s]
Well, duh, but that's not really the point I think.
The problem is that for a fan who budgets say -- $1500/year -- to Mets-related entertainment continues to get less for his money each year, and the biggest gap was between what one got last year versus what one gets this year. And a big unknown coming up after this year.
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G-Fafif
Apr 16 2008 11:40 AM
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My admission to last night's game was arranged by a thoughtful person who got his hands on some company's field box seats, so it was gratis all around, except for the company that bought them, of course. It wasn't until I got home and examined the ticket that I saw it was a $70 seat.
Holy crap. Seventy dollars for one ticket to one baseball game on one night in April. A value date, no less. Field level, yes, but not behind home plate or anything like that. A corporate buy, yes, but unless I'm missing something, the company wasn't IBM. Somebody's charging $70 a seat for a baseball game in April and somebody's paying it.
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Nymr83
Apr 16 2008 11:45 AM
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| ]and the biggest gap was between what one got last year versus what one gets this year |
i didnt think they'd raised prices much this year.
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Benjamin Grimm
Apr 16 2008 11:46 AM
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="Gwreck":eg52bibt]Add to the fact that we have this state-of-the-art stadium being built next door which -- I believe, from my own unscientific methods - many fans feel they are not going to be welcome in. Seating capacity is going down by 14,000 *seats* and they're not getting rid of the expensive ones. I've been to five games so far this year, sitting all in the Mezz or Upper Levels, and each time there were a lot of people expressing dismay that it will be the last year they will be able to go to games like they do now.[/quote:eg52bibt]
This was a good point. I feel pretty much the same way. I, as I've said, only go to Shea about twice a year (I'm going to try to get there three times this year, though, which would be the most since 1992!) but I do see the end of Shea as the end of an era for me, personally. Part of the reason (a BIG part of the reason) I make the effort to get to Shea is because of nostalgia. I, in a way, grew up at Shea. I'm almost 45, and I've been going there since I was 8. Once the Mets are in a new home, I won't feel that nostalgic tug. If I want to go to a game, I might as well decide to see them in Philadelphia or Washington. Citi Field will never feel like "home" to me in the way that Shea has. (If I still lived in New York, though, I don't think I'd be seeing it this way. I just know that I'll be less motivated to see the Mets in a strange home ballpark that costs more and is harder to get tickets to.)
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AG/DC
Apr 16 2008 11:50 AM
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I don't think people are booing over Citi.
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Grote15
Apr 16 2008 11:53 AM
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I am more than a casual fan and go to one game a year due to cost and distance.
I think fans throughout baseball are booing baseball. It never bothered me that a certian player got a big contract or a certain team had a large payroll as I didnt see it as my money.
In reality..in the wake of steroids indirectly padding performance and salaries and providing income for expensive stadiums with big ticket prices people are angry and pissed and vent the one time they get to go.
Heck..I can't afford Citifield..it's corporate BS for a Big market built to win now team.. The Mets are expected to win and when they dont some people just go off..Maybe its's the booze.
Until the Beatles play Citifield.. Shea Stadium is the home of the Mets..forever..in my heart anyway..
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Gwreck
Apr 16 2008 11:56 AM
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="AG/DC":3oyl46a2]I don't think people are booing over Citi.[/quote:3oyl46a2]
Directly? No, of course not. They're booing two and three run homers let up by our pitchers, or striking out with the bases loaded, or players who used to play for the team and were skewered in the press, or whatever.
But is the Citi Field issue one of many facets of an underlying anger among a not-unsubstantial part of the fanbase? I proffer that it is.
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Nymr83
Apr 16 2008 11:56 AM
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oh, without a doubt the performance on the field is what generates the boos. i think someone people are suggesting that the price of entry (and other costs) may affect the level of poor performance required to elicit the boos. so because i shelled out $100 at the ballpark today (and by the way, have a gander at NFL ticket prices) i will boo reyes when he doesn't run out a grounder instead of waiting for him to not run out a grounder AND get caught stealing.
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AG/DC
Apr 16 2008 11:58 AM
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If it's the economy, maybe the fans should save their money, stay home, and cling to their guns and religion and fear those unlike them.
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holychicken
Apr 16 2008 11:59 AM
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I started a topic that lasted more than a page.
That pretty much confirms it. Mets fans have collectively lost their mind.
But seriously, a bunch of good points brought up. I just feel that there is a lot more vileness this year for this point in the season. I attributed it to the collapse next year. . . but the whole salary thing and new stadium is probably part of it as well.
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AG/DC
Apr 16 2008 12:09 PM
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="Gwreck":24gjke7t]="AG/DC":24gjke7t]I don't think people are booing over Citi.[/quote:24gjke7t]
Directly? No, of course not. They're booing two and three run homers let up by our pitchers, or striking out with the bases loaded, or players who used to play for the team and were skewered in the press, or whatever.
But is the Citi Field issue one of many facets of an underlying anger among a not-unsubstantial part of the fanbase? I proffer that it is.[/quote:24gjke7t]
I don't think it's that different in character from booing that's been around most of the decade. Booing Beltran during the opening day introductions in 2006 --- did that have much to do with CitiCorps?
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metsmarathon
Apr 16 2008 12:14 PM
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met fans are very prescient.
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Nymr83
Apr 16 2008 12:14 PM
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="AG/DC":1b8pewki]If it's the economy, maybe the fans should save their money, stay home, and cling to their guns and religion and fear those unlike them.[/quote:1b8pewki]
i need a gun to cling to. cuddle with even.
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seawolf17
Apr 16 2008 12:23 PM
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="Nymr83"]| ="AG/DC"]If it's the economy, maybe the fans should save their money, stay home, and cling to their guns and religion and fear those unlike them. |
i need a gun to cling to. cuddle with even. |
I nominate either one of these:
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Nymr83
Apr 16 2008 12:35 PM
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i used to love duck hunt.
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smg58
Apr 16 2008 02:39 PM
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The Mets aren't the only local team with issues like this. The Giants were a terrific football team -- and tops in the league on the day when it mattered most -- but only when they played away from Giants Stadium. The fans were so eager to throw Manning/Coughlin/etc under the bus that it turned into a self-fulfilling prophecy at 5 of the 8 home games. And if the Giants didn't find a way to run the table in the playoffs, they'd be cut no slack this year. Now they might get a few games reprieve, lucky them.
But the sportscasters yesterday mentioned that Beltran and Delgado have had home/road splits since coming here that are too large for the park to account for. So there's reason to think that this does affect some of the players.
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metsmarathon
Apr 16 2008 03:16 PM
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i've always believed that mood affects outcome. specifically that a positive mood is more likely to yield a positive outcome than is a negative mood (within the realm of that which can be influenced by you).
flipping a coin happily is unlikely to yield a greater occurrence of the chosen side than flipping that same coin angrily; the same, i believe, cannot be said of shooting free throws.
in a positive mood, challenges present opportunities; in a negative mood, obstacles.
as a fan, you have the ability to influence the game. it is a small influence, indeed, but it is still a potential influence. either by booing or by cheering, fans can alter the atmosphere of a game, turning it into either a positive or a negative.
that characteristic of the atmosphere can influence the way the players play the game, as is alluded to often enough. players pressing, or playing loosely. trying too hard, or going with the flow.
i believe that this atmosphere can affect the outcome of plays in subtle ways. take, for instance, a ground ball to the shortstop. if the crowd has been unrelenting and unforgiving of a lack of performance by the home team, the batter may think 'fuck, i'm going to get thrown out, and they're gonna grill me' and, presupposing the outcome to be negative, perhaps the player doesn't hustle, or slows up as the play is made. if the crowd has been encouraging and supportive, the player may think 'maybe he'll boot it. maybe i can get him to rush and throw it away' and the player runs ever so slightly harder to first, perhaps fulfilling that prophecy.
the player reactions, despite their being 'professionals' and paid to play a game' are all natural human responses to the environment. positive environments bringing about a greater likelihood of positive responses to the environment, and a greater likelihood of turning challenges into opportunities which are increasingly taken advantage of, as opposed to negative environments brining about greater likelihood of negative responses to the environment, and a greater likelihood of turning challenges into obstacles which are increasingly stumbled over.
given all that philosophical mumbo jumbo, booing the home team is dumb, as it is unlikely to make the team perform better, and is more likely to make the team perform worse. i want my team seeing opportunities, not obstacles.
won't you please help them?
feel free to boo from home, though. i'm not nuts enough to think that the negative energy you create in your tv room, basement, or the local bar, is going to have any impact on the game - you can't influence it if you're not there.
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Willets Point
Apr 16 2008 03:40 PM
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This is something that's troubled me a lot as a Mets fan. As a child, I was drawn to the Mets because even though they were often awful the fans remained optimistic. They looked for and cherished the Mets Magic and miracles even if they came rarely. Fans would start a "Lets Go Mets" chant - without prompting - even with the team several runs behind in the ninth inning. When the Mets won it all in 1986 it made all that support and optimism justified.
I was disgusted by the behavior of Mets fans at Shea and online last September. The Mets needed to win just 1-2 more games to make the playoffs, but instead of rallying behind the team to get those wins, the "fans" booed and vilified them. I was particularly disgusted by the scapegoating of individual players like Jose Reyes. At the time I made the analogy to Gil Hodges who during a desperate slump inspired Dodgers fans to gather together in prayer to end his batting troubles. I think not so many years ago, the type of Mets fans I grew up with would have rallied behind Reyes in a similar way. In Sept. 2007, they not only criticized his poor play but vilified his character as well. That's just wrong, and I seriously questioned whether I wanted to be associated with being a Mets fan after that. Eventually I decided I can only act for myself and be the most positive type of Mets fan I can be.
The thing I kept hearing last September from Mets "fans" is that the team gave up. That may be true, but I believe the fans gave up on the team first. The fact that the Mets played before largely hostile crowds at home in the final weeks of the season is in my opinion a major contributing cause of the "collapse."
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Number 6
Apr 16 2008 09:17 PM
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="Willets Point":2xueb28v]Fans would start a "Lets Go Mets" chant - without prompting - even with the team several runs behind in the ninth inning.[/quote:2xueb28v]
Not to threadjack too badly, but boy, do I ever wish the Mets would run a promotion called "Quiet Day," when they wouldn't pump loud music and force-feed cheers and crowd noise constantly throughout the game. Alternately, it could be called "Learn To Cheer All By Yourself, You Ninny Day."
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Willets Point
Apr 16 2008 09:53 PM
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="Number 6":en7ovw52]="Willets Point":en7ovw52]Fans would start a "Lets Go Mets" chant - without prompting - even with the team several runs behind in the ninth inning.[/quote:en7ovw52]
Not to threadjack too badly, but boy, do I ever wish the Mets would run a promotion called "Quiet Day," when they wouldn't pump loud music and force-feed cheers and crowd noise constantly throughout the game. Alternately, it could be called "Learn To Cheer All By Yourself, You Ninny Day."[/quote:en7ovw52]
I'm down with that. It could coincide with a resurrected banner day.
Btw, is it the chicken or the egg? Can fans not cheer without prompting from the PA system or has all the noise made it so that fans can't start their own cheers even if they want to?
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seawolf17
Apr 17 2008 04:43 AM
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Another missed opportunity for the Mets this year... one more Banner Day before the stadium closes. It's like the marketing folks are living underground.
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Fman99
Apr 17 2008 09:06 AM
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="Willets Point":31lljaza]="Number 6":31lljaza]="Willets Point":31lljaza]Fans would start a "Lets Go Mets" chant - without prompting - even with the team several runs behind in the ninth inning.[/quote:31lljaza]
Not to threadjack too badly, but boy, do I ever wish the Mets would run a promotion called "Quiet Day," when they wouldn't pump loud music and force-feed cheers and crowd noise constantly throughout the game. Alternately, it could be called "Learn To Cheer All By Yourself, You Ninny Day."[/quote:31lljaza]
I'm down with that. It could coincide with a resurrected banner day.
Btw, is it the chicken or the egg? Can fans not cheer without prompting from the PA system or has all the noise made it so that fans can't start their own cheers even if they want to?[/quote:31lljaza]
Well there has been professional baseball games in the 'modern' era for 110 years, and the first 70 or so the fans somehow knew when to cheer and when to shut up.
It's the Saturday afternoon Fox GOTW mentality. Casual fans are too dumb to know when they should cheer.
All you need are lights and a manual scoreboard to show the count on the batter. Maybe a pipe organ for affect. Turn off all the rest of it as it's just noise.
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Benjamin Grimm
Apr 17 2008 09:09 AM
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You see it as noise, and I do too.
But for many fans, it's what makes a day at the ballpark entertaining.
And that's why it's not going to go away. None of the teams want to replicate the 1910 baseball experience at the cost of thousands of paying fans.
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metsmarathon
Apr 17 2008 09:29 AM
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i like the lights and the scoreboard animations and all that. 'whoop, there it is' when a met hits a home run, i think we can surely do without.
maybe if they were able to keep current with the noisemakers instead of falling into tired cliches, it wouldn't be so bad... well, as far as celebretory songs anyways. the rest of the 'tell the fans when to cheer and how or else they won't' could go away, or be supplanted with more creative ideas.
i dislike when they take something the fans do naturally, and turn it into a cheering-cue, like the jose-josejosejose-jose-jose thing.
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Nymr83
Apr 27 2008 08:15 PM
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| ]Btw, is it the chicken or the egg? Can fans not cheer without prompting from the PA system or has all the noise made it so that fans can't start their own cheers even if they want to? |
the whle thing for jose reyes started out as the fans, then the idiots decided that the fans needed prompting to keep doing it.
oh and i HATE that whole "everybody clap your hands" thing.
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G-Fafif
Apr 28 2008 06:08 AM
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Sherman writes:
| ]Yankee fans do the role call early in the game. |
Does that mean they call out each player's name and describe what his duties to the team are? Or that they are the most encouraging of souls? (Oh wait, the MFYs have nothing to do with any of this, but every columnist who used to cover them has to invoke them even when not writing about them. Silly me.)
Post guy comes out against booing on Sunday, rain on Monday. Yippee.
This will be anecdotal by necessity because, unlike Joel Sherman, I can't read tens of thousands of minds, but from where I sat on Sunday, boos did not pour down on Delgado's shiny pate after not taking a curtain call. He was applauded for his accomplishments and, when he didn't respond, it felt collectively shrugged off. Certainly in my section and, to my ears, in general. Carlos' reaction didn't at all feel like The Story while I was there on Sunday. Somehow I'm not surprised that it is in the papers and on the FAN this Monday.
The dissatisfaction with a slumping slugger morphing into appreciation after he actually slugs reminds me of what George Foster experienced intermittently after being buried in his first year. He'd be booed, he'd break out, he'd be given a hero's greeting and then he'd be back to boos with the next couple of ohfers. Foster would tip his cap anyway. Didn't seem to win him any enduring points in the long run.
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AG/DC
Apr 28 2008 01:53 PM
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Noble, Marty:
<blockquote>Booing at Shea Stadium has become endemic and borderline shameful. Most folks who never have played the game at any level higher than Babe Ruth -- and I certainly am one of them -- have little sense of how difficult the game is to play. They appreciate success and demand it at all times. It's as if they believe a 25-0 season or .480 batting average would happen if the players put more effort into their performances.
Because fans have the right to boo, they seemingly think it is their responsibility to boo, and they boo because they can. My sense of it is that a couple of thousand malcontents, still bruised by the events of last September, express themselves at nearly every opportunity -- even a leadoff groundout to short in the first inning. Then the followers follow as if booing is contagious.
I suspect most of the boo birds would kill for an autograph and gush if they were to meet the same player they booed an hour earlier. The increased dissatisfaction among fans, I think, is prompted to some degree by the millions players earn and the intolerance for anything but success expressed by sports talk radio.
Those shows harp on one or two isolated plays. One topic -- one misplay -- will be reviewed for 30 minutes. Even the hosts repeat themselves. If newspaper or Web sites were to react in the same way, you would read the same three paragraphs 20 times.
The concentrated criticism and ridicule creates a distorted view of a play or the player(s) involved, and that misperception carries over to the people who attend games. More than ever, fans want to be part of the game, part of the in-stadium experience. I don't understand. When I was a kid, I went to ballpark to watch. I cheered the good plays and recognized the bad. I'm sure I booed a call I didn't like. I'm sure my father or uncle didn't allow me to boo anything else.
New York likes to think of itself as a tough town. And I believe every high-profile, new player is tested by the fans; witness the boos for Johan Santana. Kevin McReynolds, a fine player, was booed far more often than he deserved. After he left he Mets, he said New York fans want a player to succeed, but if success doesn't happen, the fans' second preference is for abject failure.
I don't think he was off the mark in that assessment. </blockquote>
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*62
Apr 28 2008 02:04 PM
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Booing at Shea didn't seem to be a widespread problem until after the fall to earth of the highly competitive teams of the mid-to-late eighties and 1990 .... after that, the crowds got progressively more ignorant each season.
The collective intelligence these days doesn't even move the needle.
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AG/DC
Apr 28 2008 02:23 PM
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That may be a late-comer to you and me, but its 18 years of Metfan ignorance.
Metfan ignorance is old enough, in many countries, to appear in a pornographic video, or express legal consent to sexual relations with another.
Metfan ignorance has the right to bear arms, own property, marry without parental consent, get an abortion, donate its body to science, and serve on a jury. With these new privileges come responsibility: Metfan ignorance would be tried as an adult in court.
In the United Kingdom, Metfan ignorance can purchase tobacco, alcohol, pornography, go to war, vote, and model for pornography; (but reached the the age of consent at 16).
Metfan ignorance can be admitted to, rent, or buy an MPAA-rated NC-17 movie.
Metfan ignorance can play, rent, or buy an ESRB rated AO game.
It's intolerable.
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Frayed Knot
Apr 28 2008 02:32 PM
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| ="*62"]Booing at Shea didn't seem to be a widespread problem until after the fall to earth of the highly competitive teams of the mid-to-late eighties and 1990 .... after that, the crowds got progressively more ignorant each season. |
Take the collapse of the post-'80s teams with "only" one WC to show, tack on the unlikeability of the squads that followed, add a pinch of the general reaction to the '94 strike, and then top all that with a decade-plus run of the cross-town team and those are ingrediants for the anger to be building for years.
Met fans have sounded angry to me for going on 20 years now. They're merely angrier these days.
| ]The collective intelligence these days doesn't even move the needle. |
It's why I hate Met fans.
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G-Fafif
Apr 28 2008 04:00 PM
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From a commenter named "the dude formerly known as bill l." on [url=http://brooklynmetfan.com/]Brooklyn Met Fan[/url], a couple of weeks ago:
| ]4/10/1976 Red Smith, New York Times
“Temperatures were creeping into the upper 40’s, but a snaggle-toothed wind whistling in from left field lent a Joe Namath touch to an entertainment starring that other New York folk hero, Tom Seaver. This is a folk hero, incidentally, whom the folks welcomed back with boos because he earns more money than they do…”
July 12, 1983
When Darryl Strawberry went to bat for the Mets in the eighth inning of Sunday’s game, many in the crowd of 17,666 at Shea Stadium booed. Strawberry has heard a lot of boos throughout his difficult rookie season.
July 1, 1987
When Doug Sisk of the Mets complained earlier this season that he, Darryl Strawberry and Howard Johnson had been unfair targets of booing at Shea Stadium, they sounded like the latest victims in a phenomenon that started 26 seasons ago, at the beginning of the Mets’ existence. The first player to draw the wrath of the crowd was Jim Marshall, one of the 25 original Mets.
‘’It was our opening home game on April 13, 1962, after we had lost our first two games in St. Louis,'’ the outfielder-first baseman said. ‘’We were playing Pittsburgh at the Polo Grounds and Gil Hodges, a big favorite in New York from his days with the Brooklyn Dodgers, was supposed to start at first base.
‘’But Gil came up with a sore knee, so when the starting lineups were announced with me at first base, the capacity crowd let out with a long wave of boos.
‘’What do you think of that? Before swinging a bat or touching a ball, I was the first Met to be booed in New York.'’
July 28, 1989
Carter Comes Back, but to Cold Shoulder
Associated Press
New York—Gary Carter would like the next two months to prove he can still play baseball. Fans at Shea Stadium needed much less time to decide.
Carter came off the disabled list Tuesday and hit into a double play as a pinch hitter in the eighth inning. On Wednesday night, he started and was 0-3 as the New York Mets lost to Pittsburgh, 3-2. It was a humid night and the 40,000 on hand were not in a particularly charitable mood. With each out, Carter was booed just a little harder…”
Mercury News Wire Services
December 1, 1989, Page 8D, San Jose Mercury News (CA)
Juan Samuel asked the New York Mets to trade him next week at the winter meetings in Nashville, Tenn., the New York Daily News reported today. Samuel was acquired June 18 for Roger McDowell and Lenny Dykstra, but he hit only .228 and had to endure booing at Shea Stadium, in part because he had replaced the popular Dykstra and Mookie Wilson. So Samuel told club officials he would not mind a trade.
8/24/98 NY Times
“At a time when the Mets need all the help they can get as they battle for a spot as a wild-card entry in the playoffs, how does one account for the fans at Shea stadium booing Mike Piazza, their leading slugger, with an enthusiasm perhaps second only to their shouts to aatract the attention of the beer vendor?
Newsday 4/4/2006
Beltran boos carry over.
Byline: Wallace Matthews
Apr. 4–Even in the best of times, it doesn’t take long for New Yorkers to isolate and attack a target. Yesterday, it took about a half-hour for Mets fans to lock on to Carlos Beltran. Who knows when they will let go? The boos rained down on the Mets’ centerfielder early and often, pausing only when the final out of the game was made about two hours later and the home team had secured a 3-2 victory over the Washington Nationals. That was the direct result of Beltran’s peg from the left-centerfield gap to the glove of Anderson Hernandez to retire Jose Vidro trying to stretch a two-out single, but the cheers seemed more in response…”
Daily News, April 12, 2008
“After being greeted with the longest and loudest ovation during Opening Day introductions Tuesday, Johan Santana had his official “Welcome to New York” moment Saturday.
Flushing’s new ace and savior heard some boos at Shea as he departed the mound in the seventh inning of a 5-3 loss to .Milwaukee in his long-anticipated home debut.” |
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SteveJRogers
Apr 28 2008 04:31 PM
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="Willets Point":2obz60rj]="Number 6":2obz60rj]="Willets Point":2obz60rj]Fans would start a "Lets Go Mets" chant - without prompting - even with the team several runs behind in the ninth inning.[/quote:2obz60rj]
Not to threadjack too badly, but boy, do I ever wish the Mets would run a promotion called "Quiet Day," when they wouldn't pump loud music and force-feed cheers and crowd noise constantly throughout the game. Alternately, it could be called "Learn To Cheer All By Yourself, You Ninny Day."[/quote:2obz60rj]
I'm down with that. It could coincide with a resurrected banner day.
Btw, is it the chicken or the egg? Can fans not cheer without prompting from the PA system or has all the noise made it so that fans can't start their own cheers even if they want to?[/quote:2obz60rj]
In another Met Online Fan Forum though that kind of attitude you are describing gets mocked with the Mets aggressive style of "in-your-face" PA antics. The "Everybody Clap Your Hands" the "Pepsi Party Patrol" t-shirt launch.
The idea is that the Mets PA system is trying to create an image of the "real fan" and the fans on that board are replused by the idea that they (the Mets marketing department) know how real fans should act.
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AG/DC
May 28 2008 07:27 AM
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So, Monday night, changing "Fire Willie!" in the ninth. Is that within the pale?
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seawolf17
May 28 2008 08:30 AM
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They only did it because Chris Rock told them to.
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metirish
May 28 2008 12:09 PM
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Wayne Noble of Syracuse , in Colorado I think.
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Edgy DC
Jan 02 2009 12:47 PM
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A I hearily endorse this thread as a Craney Nominee.
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Rockin' Doc
Jan 02 2009 04:40 PM
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I am quickly coming to the conclusion that one of the prerequisites of a craney nomination is that I had little or no part in the thread.
I think this is a great idea to nominate threads that contain great discussions and moments. We should get one or two more threads nominated and then start a thread for discussion and a poll for voting for the best thread of 2008.
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