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Billy Calls Out Ollie

G-Fafif Apr 30 2008 07:45 PM

From Adam Rubin's game story: ]Wagner called the Mets "fortunate" to be 14-12 and openly criticized Perez. "Perez has honestly got to step up and know that we've just used every guy in our bullpen the night before," Wagner said. "He can't come out there and decide that gee, he hasn't got it today, and so be it." Asked if someone ought to relay that sentiment to Perez, Wagner suggested it would be "pretty much" like talking to a wall. Perez, for his part, was unfazed by Wagner's remark. "You have to help your team going deep in the game," he said. "I was trying to do that." Pleasant cross-country flight these fellows must be enjoying.

batmagadanleadoff Apr 30 2008 07:56 PM

Does Wagner think that Ollie pitched poorly today on purpose? Edit: Did Perez ask to be taken out of today's game?

Willets Point Apr 30 2008 08:04 PM

Ah, someone's taking over the douchebag role from Glavine.

Triple Dee Apr 30 2008 08:10 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on May 01 2008 04:23 AM

Sign on Ollie's locker: "Know your place, Player of 3-5 years Major League experience"

Number 6 Apr 30 2008 10:33 PM

Willets Point wrote: Ah, someone's taking over the douchebag role from Glavine. Personally, I think Wagner always had it, he just pitched less innings and never played for the Braves, so not as many people noticed.

Elster88 Apr 30 2008 11:19 PM

Glavine was never a douchebag, Willets. I felt that your "I Hate Glavine He Has Icky Brave Cooties" routine got old in June of his first year with the Mets, even though everyone else joined you after the Marlins ass-reamed him last year in game 162. Are those reasons (Brave-cooties, game 162 last year, and a pedestrian Metly-career) the ones for calling him a douchebag? Or did he actually call out his teammates and act like an ass in a Wagnerian manner? I can't remember him being a prick offhand.

metirish May 01 2008 07:53 AM

I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing that Wagner called out Perez , the problem is does he call out other players or was calling out Perez about a perceived lack of effort Wagner felt from Perez. Delgado sucks right now but at least he's putting in the effort Billy might think. You start calling out players can lead down a slippery path.

Benjamin Grimm May 01 2008 07:56 AM

I agree with Elster. And no, it's not necessarily bad that Wagner called out Perez. But it shouldn't be in the media. If it has to be done, it should be done behind closed doors.

AG/DC May 01 2008 07:57 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on May 01 2008 08:07 AM

I think Billy considers himself the dean and defender of the bullpen, and he called out somebody for screwing his penmates. In his head (or in my head's idea of what's in his head), he's being a good teammate by speaking up for his penmates who don't have the juice (in terms of salary/tenure/security) to open their mouths.

John Cougar Lunchbucket May 01 2008 08:01 AM

I get the impression some guys need to be publicly kicked sometimes and that Perez is one of them. I do think Wagner goes off half-cocked too frequently but I don't necessarily mind in this case. Perez for his part seemed to have taken the criticisms in stride and sort of agreed with Wagner. Willie has been pointed in his criticism of Ollie as well this season, and considering Willie and Wagner haven't always seen eye-to-eye it's not like they're ganging up; they're saying what needs to be said.

batmagadanleadoff May 01 2008 08:05 AM

... which brings it all back to Ollie bringing his "A" game. And then what if the Pirate players also brought their "A" games? How would that be Ollie's fault? Seems to me that what Wags shoulda done is to sneak into the Pittsburgh locker room and stolen everybodys' "A" game when no one was looking. He coulda also replaced their "A" games with "C" games so's no one woulda noticed that any kind of game was missing. Or "D" games. That'd work, too.

AG/DC May 01 2008 08:09 AM

If Ollie brough his A game and been bested by the Pirates bringing their A games, then he would have been battered out of the game, not walked himself out the game. And maybe a few drives would have landed in enough met gloves that he'd have managed to go four innings or so.

metirish May 01 2008 09:50 AM

So a closer look at what Wagner said and it seems he spared no one......... ] "Today, we just didn't show up," he said. "I'm not saying Pittsburgh can't beat the New York Mets. But I'm just saying there's no way we should have this lopsided of a score." "Yes, you're going to have games like this," Wagner said. "But it's the fashion in which you play these games. I mean, we weren't good at defense. We weren't good at pitching. There was no get-up-and-go. And that can't happen. "It's something that can't continue to linger." "When you have games like this, it's very easy to say you're going to have these games, "You will have these games. But when there's not a lot of effort and desire, that's when you worry." When Wagner was asked if he's concerned about their effort, he said, "I don't think it's something that's every day. I think it's something where you have a situation like today. You get down early and it's tough. But you've got to have the determination and desire to get back out there and fight." what Willie said... ] "There's no need to be concerned about that. It's one game. In 162 you're going to have stinkers like that

AG/DC May 01 2008 09:54 AM

If I've got to back somebody, I'm backing Wagner. Sheesh, Willie, 46,788 folks paid perfectly good money to witness that. Countles staff hours were lost (during a recession, Willie!) from those of us following online.

attgig May 01 2008 10:01 AM

I think Wagner is a lot tougher mentally than ollie, and he expects that same mental toughness out of him. for olile, it's a mental thing, walking so many batters is a mental thing, and if you start out sloppy, he needs to learn how to get his control back. i think it's an unrealistic expectation, and ollie needs a mentor more than a critic.

Frayed Knot May 01 2008 10:36 AM

AG/DC wrote: I think Billy considers himself the dean and defender of the bullpen, and he called out somebody for screwing his penmates. In his head (or in my head's idea of what's in his head), he's being a good teammate by speaking up for his penmates who don't have the juice (in terms of salary/tenure/security) to open their mouths. As Irish points out above, it wasn't just Perez that Billy teed off on, it was basically the entire team and Wednesday's "effort" in general. Plus it's no secret that BW was born minus the filter between brain & mouth. He was taking on team mgmt for its player personnel moves back when he was a much younger player in his Houston days. Sometimes he over-steps his boundries doing stuff like that although I'm not so sure this is one of them. In fact, if he didn't say something fans would probably be stewing thinking that the players must be unconcerned by the lousy game since none of them said anything.

Rockin' Doc May 01 2008 07:23 PM

batmag - "Does Wagner think that Ollie pitched poorly today on purpose? " I think Wagner is questioning Perez's heart and mental toughness. Perez has great stuff, but his inconsistancy is maddening to watch. Apparently Wagenr is as tired of watching Ollie's or or nothing outings as I am. Glavine may have been a disappointment during his Mets tenure, but he was never (imo) a "douchebag". It never ceases to amaze me how much crap Tom Glavine caught during his time with the Mets while Pedro Martinez generally gets a pass from the fans. Glavine is reviled, by many, for having been a long time Brave and for not being as good during the twilight of his career (as a Met) as he was in his prime with the Braves. Pedro Martinez was brought to New York to be the ace of the staff, but after a good opening season, he has generally anchored the DL rather than the Mets staff.

metirish May 01 2008 07:38 PM

Two totally different personalities in Pedro and Glavine ,where Pedro was all about excitment glavine was all about low key. Should the fans not like Pedro because he has suffered injuries one of which was as serious as it gets?

batmagadanleadoff May 01 2008 07:51 PM

Rockin' Doc wrote: batmag - "Does Wagner think that Ollie pitched poorly today on purpose? " I think Wagner is questioning Perez's heart.... I once saw a game where you could see that the pitcher just plum ran out of gas. Well, I could see it anyway even if you couldn't since I was the one watching the damn game like I said I was at the beginning of the sentence before this one. Anyways, with two outs this pitcher loaded up the bases in the bottom of the ninth with just a one run lead and there was no one warming up for him because all the relievers were used up the day before. And you could see he had nothing left even if you couldn't see it. His fast ball was slow and his curve couldn't reach the catcher on a fly. He was in trouble. He managed to get two strikes on the batter but only because the 400 foot line drives he just finished giving up just barely went foul of the foul pole. So with nothing left, he dug deep into his jersey with his pitching hand, and even deeper than that until he pulled his heart right out from inside his chest. Then he flung his heart towards home plate with the blood and all that was squirting all over the place from his homebound heart and the batter just stood there dumbstruck as the heart went by him for called strike three. That last pitch was a real bleeder. And that pitcher definitely had heart. And probably some guts too. So some pitchers do have heart. That coulda been a karate movie I was watching, though.

John Cougar Lunchbucket May 01 2008 07:54 PM

You're the best ...around No one's ever gonna keep ya down

Rockin' Doc May 01 2008 07:56 PM

I just think that Glavine catches an unfair amount of crap from many Mets fans for not having been great. He was a reliable starter that could be counted on to take the ball every fifth game for the entire time he was with the Mets. Many seem to harbor ill will for him simply because of his long affiliation with the Braves. I hate to see any player suffer injuries. I truly like Pedro, but I don't know how his tenure with the Mets can be considered as anything less than disappointing when you consider the full body of his work. He had a very good first season with the Mets, a mediocre partial campaign in his second season, an almost non-existent third season, and he's essentially an nonfactor thus far in his fourth season. I don't hold out much hope for Pedro's triumphant return this season, but maybe he'll "surpise" me. I truly hope that he does.

Nymr83 May 01 2008 08:28 PM

]"Perez has honestly got to step up and know that we've just used every guy in our bullpen the night before," Wagner said. "He can't come out there and decide that gee, he hasn't got it today, and so be it." Asked if someone ought to relay that sentiment to Perez, Wagner suggested it would be "pretty much" like talking to a wall. I'm with Wagner, you've gotta go out there and get it done. And i think you've gotta get on willie a bit too, if the bullpen is really burnt and the game is getting out of hand maybe its time to tell ollie to take one for the team and keep going?

metirish May 01 2008 08:39 PM

Billy keeps a yappin. ] On air, Mets' Wagner continues criticism of Perez BY JIM BAUMBACH | 8:39 PM EDT, May 1, 2008 Billy Wagner expanded on his blunt criticism of Oliver Perez Thursday during his weekly radio spot, saying the Mets will go nowhere this year if the enigmatic lefthander doesn't learn how to battle through his own troubles. In his weekly interview with Michael Kay on 1050 ESPN Radio, Wagner said Perez has to hold himself accountable for lasting only 12/3 innings Wednesday when the team desperately needed length. "You have to be able to look at yourself and say, 'Is that the best I can do?"' he said. Speaking before the Mets' chartered flight to Arizona, Wagner said he and others approached Perez before Wednesday's game and told him they needed length. But what Wagner saw was a pitcher who didn't have his best stuff and didn't fight his way through it. "If he goes out there and battles and comes up short, you know what, we're not going to have a problem with that," he said. "But you have to battle. You have to go out there and find a way." Wagner's statements may not have helped his clubhouse reputation as a talker -- "I'm probably the least favorite guy in the clubhouse," he said -- but he is not worried about any ramifications. He expected Mets manager Willie Randolph to request a private meeting before the flight, and he seemed more than willing to express the same sentiments to him. "I want to win and I know everyone in that clubhouse wants to win," Wagner said, "but sometimes you've got to say something. You might have to stir the pot." As for Perez, Wagner said, "I'll be in the locker room, and if Oliver wants to say something, fine. I love the kid ... If he gets mad at Billy Wagner for saying this and then goes out there and wins ballgames, great. I'm all for it." Wagner said he didn't want to publicly rip his teammate two days in a row, but he did so because he thought it might help Perez become tougher on the mound. "I'm not saying it because I don't like him," he said. "I'm saying it because I expect to be better. "I have no problem with someone coming over and saying they didn't like what I said or why I said it. But when you sit with him and say, 'We need this; we need you to step up right here' and guys are coming to him saying, 'Hey, I see this' and he's not responding, then you know what, if this -- -- you off, if you don't want me to say anything, then go out there and pitch and compete."

AG/DC May 01 2008 08:49 PM

Eleist.

Number 6 May 01 2008 10:48 PM

batmagadanleadoff wrote: So with nothing left, he dug deep into his jersey with his pitching hand, and even deeper than that until he pulled his heart right out from inside his chest. Then he flung his heart towards home plate with the blood and all that was squirting all over the place from his homebound heart and the batter just stood there dumbstruck as the heart went by him for called strike three. That last pitch was a real bleeder. And that pitcher definitely had heart. And probably some guts too. So some pitchers do have heart. That coulda been a karate movie I was watching, though. This was absolutely hilarious. Perez reminds me of a few guys I've worked with. Smart, so much so that their failures are especially disappointing. At first, when they fail, they kick the water cooler, because they don't know how to effectively harness their talent, and feel powerless and persecuted. They continue to fail, and the cycle repeats. Then, they realize that kicking the water cooler accomplishes nothing but a spot on everyone's bad side, so they try to swallow any and all criticism as an attempt to prove their effort and investment. It never works, and I can't see Wagner's dickishness as anything other than a further distraction from real progress. I wish he'd shut up, and let the coaches do their jobs.

Zvon May 03 2008 04:24 PM

Randolph asks Wagner to keep criticism in-house May 2, 2008 PHOENIX (AP) -New York Mets manager Willie Randolph told Billy Wagner to keep critical comments in-house Friday, two days after the closer ripped pitcher Oliver Perez following a blowout loss to Pittsburgh. Wagner criticized Perez after the left-hander lasted just 1 1-3 innings in a 13-1 loss to the Pirates on Wednesday, a night after the Mets exhausted their bullpen in an 11-inning victory. "Perez has honestly got to step up and know that we've just used every guy in our bullpen the night before," Wagner said at the time. "He can't come out there and decide that, `Gee, he hasn't got it today and so be it."' When asked if talking to Perez was like talking to a wall, Wagner said: "Pretty much." Wagner had little to say Friday. "It's all been taken care of," he said. Randolph addressed the subject Friday before the Mets' game in Arizona "I wouldn't go that route, but that's Billy," Randolph said. "Billy gets a little emotional at times. If he feels that way, it's fine. Billy doesn't speak for the team. That's just him. That's just his opinion." AP NEWS The Associated Press News Service

sharpie May 05 2008 01:58 PM

Observer backs Ollie. http://origin.observer.com/2008/mets-will-miss-perez-when-hes-gone

Benjamin Grimm May 05 2008 02:03 PM

Perez is a talented pitcher, and I'd have no problem with him returning next year. But if he doesn't, he doesn't. I'm not at all convinced that he's irreplaceable.

metsmarathon May 05 2008 02:17 PM

without going point by point, i think that the observer gets the big picture right, but is wrong on many a detail. yes, the mets will miss him when he's gone, but only if he pitches like he did last year. if his performance last year is the exception to the rule, and not the rule the observer seems to believe it to be, then the mets should not miss him terribly much, as he would then be imminently replaceable. as a matter of fact, the mets already miss oliver perez, as he has yet to appear as he had last season. and the observer misses this rather easy point.

John Cougar Lunchbucket May 05 2008 02:38 PM

Yeah, the Observer asks you buy the idea that 2007 was a starting point or floor, where it's obvious he can be quite worse than that.

TransMonk May 05 2008 03:14 PM

Ironic Prediction for 5/5/08: Ollie throws 8 innings of shutout ball...the Mets lead 3-0 in the ninth...Wags blows the save...Perez keeps his mouth shut.

Rockin' Doc May 05 2008 04:36 PM

No more reliably than Perez throws strikes, he won't be able to go eight innings unless Willie lets him throw 150 pitches. He's only pitched six complete innings once in his 6 starts.

John Cougar Lunchbucket May 05 2008 05:36 PM

TransMonk wrote: Ironic Prediction for 5/5/08: Ollie throws 8 innings of shutout ball...the Mets lead 3-0 in the ninth...Wags blows the save...Perez keeps his mouth shut. Yup (c)

holychicken May 05 2008 06:37 PM

TransMonk wrote: Ironic Prediction for 5/5/08: Ollie throws 8 innings of shutout ball...the Mets lead 3-0 in the ninth...Wags blows the save...Perez keeps his mouth shut. Wow, you're evil.

Rockin' Doc May 06 2008 06:58 AM

The only good thing about the way Perez is pitching thus far this season is that he could be retained relatively cheaply should the Mets desire to keep him. His stock, like all of mine, is in steady decline at present. I hope both he, and the market, gets turned around soon.

metirish May 06 2008 07:04 AM

Gil Meche cheap or a lot less?

John Cougar Lunchbucket May 06 2008 07:08 AM

Billy and Willie are patronizingly supportive today. Real improvement and stuff.

AG/DC May 06 2008 07:18 AM

Patroinizing, yes, but I agree. It took more than Ollie to lose last night. I just think his motion is so whack-a-doodle, he's always going to be a project.

John Cougar Lunchbucket May 06 2008 07:33 AM

I totally agree it was as good as he's looked all year, about. But that last HR was a killer, he needs to strap em on for every pitch.

AG/DC May 06 2008 07:37 AM

Sure, but that sort of thingy can happen when your offense gives you no margin for error.

John Cougar Lunchbucket May 06 2008 07:40 AM

As soon as I saw Billingsley's K/IP ratio I figured the offense would score maybe twice if they were lucky (they were unlucky and scored once). I shut it down after Beimel destroyed us in the 7th, and dreamed we cut it to 5-4 and lost.

themetfairy Jul 07 2008 10:32 AM

I just felt like bumping this. I would have loved it if Ollie had bitch slapped Wagner in the dugout at the end of the 9th in Philly yesterday.

Centerfield Jul 07 2008 10:33 AM

I was thinking about this too. It would be great to hear Ollie talk about how Wagner has to give a better effort out there and stay focused.

G-Fafif Jul 07 2008 11:08 AM

]Wagner called the Mets "fortunate" to be 14-12 and openly criticized Perez. "Perez has honestly got to step up and know that we've just used every guy in our bullpen the night before," Wagner said. "He can't come out there and decide that gee, he hasn't got it today, and so be it." Asked if someone ought to relay that sentiment to Perez, Wagner suggested it would be "pretty much" like talking to a wall. Perez, for his part, was unfazed by Wagner's remark. "You have to help your team going deep in the game," he said. "I was trying to do that." Maybe not Ollie, but one of the outfielders could have gotten on Billy yesterday about forcing them to work several more innings, how every guy in our outfield is trying to make up for the absence of Alou and Church and how by extending the game, they had to risk further injury as a corps by spending more time patrolling that treacherous wet grass. Billy can't just go out there and decide to hang a slider and shrug his shoulders. But that would have been ludicrous and nobody would have said that. Guess they just don't care as much as Billy.

AG/DC Jul 07 2008 11:11 AM

I like the part where Perez decides to fail.

soupcan Jul 07 2008 11:28 AM

All this sticking up for Ollie is fine but are any of you guys ready to throw Santana money at him in this off-season? I'm not.

G-Fafif Jul 07 2008 11:29 AM

="AG/DC"]I like the part where Perez decides to fail. I had to keep reminding myself yesterday that Wagner didn't mean to hang a slider to Werth, that he'd rather get him out, that he likes to collect saves. It's silly to think otherwise (unless this is the 1919 World Series). So how did Billy get away with his characterization of Perez that afternoon? Must have been the language barrier between Billy and the press.

Rockin' Doc Jul 07 2008 11:32 AM

In answer to Soupcans question, I offer an emphatic no. I'm tired of the Good Ollie/Bad Ollie act that Perez has displayed during his time with the Mets. He can be very good at times, but he's just too damn inconsistant to be relied upon as more than a #3 or #4 pitcher in a rotation. I think he will look to land a big money deal more in line with a front line starter, and I just don't think he's worth it.

G-Fafif Jul 07 2008 11:35 AM

Dan Warthen fixed Ollie's arm angle so he can more readily endorse a very large check this winter.

Benjamin Grimm Jul 07 2008 11:42 AM

soupcan wrote: All this sticking up for Ollie is fine but are any of you guys ready to throw Santana money at him in this off-season? I'm not. Me neither. That's why I'm in favor of trading him this month, although I acknowledge that he'd be hard to replace from within for the next few months. (Maybe they can sign Freddy Garcia. Or maybe Orlando Hernandez really WILL pitch again. Or maybe the Perez deal would yield a guy, with less upside than Perez, of course, who could join the rotation. Otherwise, we're looking at Santana, Maine, Pelfrey, Martinez, Armas/Vargas.)

themetfairy Jul 07 2008 11:44 AM

soupcan wrote: All this sticking up for Ollie is fine but are any of you guys ready to throw Santana money at him in this off-season? I'm not. That's a totally separate question. No, I don't want to throw stupid money at Ollie next season. But I don't like a guy who will dump on his teammate while he's struggling. Wagner has earned all of this ill will because he was a jerk in public to a teammate who could have used his support at the time.

Centerfield Jul 07 2008 12:43 PM

Yes, let's be clear. I'm not saying good things about Ollie. I'm saying bad things about Wagner.