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Piazza Retires

AG/DC May 20 2008 01:30 PM

So says Howie.

metirish May 20 2008 01:32 PM

Thanks for the great times Mike.

Benjamin Grimm May 20 2008 01:33 PM

Gary Cohen confirms.

AG/DC May 20 2008 01:33 PM

"After discussing my options with my wife, family and agent, I felt it is time to start a new chapter in my life," he said in a statement released by his agent, Dan Lozano. "It has been an amazing journey."

Benjamin Grimm May 20 2008 01:35 PM

He should have signed a ceremonial contract with the Mets. That would have been nice. Now the talk will heat up again about caps on Cooperstown plaques and retired numbers. As for the cap, Keith says Mets, Gary and Ron say Dodgers.

metirish May 20 2008 01:37 PM

A good case can be made for both I suppose , best year was his last as a Dodger.

AG/DC May 20 2008 01:38 PM

Two ways of avoiding the controversy I can get on board with: Put him in an insignia-free catcher's helmet (I failed to sell this idea for Gary Carter) Put him in an NYPD hat

Benjamin Grimm May 20 2008 01:39 PM

I think it will be the Mets. More years, more games, only World Series appearance.

Willets Point May 20 2008 01:41 PM

More important: Schedule Mike Piazza Day at Shea NOW!!!! Sure they could do it at Citifield, but I think it should be done in the ballpark Piazza played in.

Benjamin Grimm May 20 2008 01:41 PM

I agree. As long as they don't retire his number.

Fman99 May 20 2008 01:42 PM

Thanks for the memories, Mike. You were THE MAN.

AG/DC May 20 2008 01:42 PM

Palabra a su mamacita.

Willets Point May 20 2008 01:43 PM

Benjamin Grimm wrote: I agree. As long as they don't retire his number. Should be a shoe-in for the Mets HOF though.

Benjamin Grimm May 20 2008 01:45 PM

Definitely.

John Cougar Lunchbucket May 20 2008 01:46 PM

"There's a ----ing shocker." --Billy Wagner

mario25 May 20 2008 01:49 PM

Guy hit some serious bombs too..He was a great Met during his time here and an amazing hitter...

John Cougar Lunchbucket May 20 2008 01:51 PM

Used an awful lot of steroids, don't you think?

Benjamin Grimm May 20 2008 01:52 PM

Didn't you hear? He was "vindicated."

metirish May 20 2008 02:00 PM

It's probably purely coincidental but I just saw Sam Champion doing the weather on channel 7 and he didn't sound best pleased , now it could be the shitty weather but you never know.

Valadius May 20 2008 02:25 PM

]BEVERLY HILLS, Calif. (AP)—Mike Piazza is retiring from baseball following a 16-season career in which he became one of the top-hitting catchers in history. “After discussing my options with my wife, family and agent, I felt it is time to start a new chapter in my life,” he said in a statement released Tuesday by his agent, Dan Lozano. “It has been an amazing journey … So today, I walk away with no regrets. “I knew this day was coming and over the last two years. I started to make my peace with it. I gave it my all and left everything on the field.” The 39-year-old Piazza became a free agent after last season and did not re-sign. He was not available to discuss his decision, according to Josh Goldberg, a spokesman for Lozano. Taken by the Los Angeles Dodgers on the 62nd round of the 1988 amateur draft, Piazza became a 12-time All-Star, making the NL team 10 consecutive times starting in 1993. He finished with a .308 career average, 427 home runs and 1,335 RBIs for the Dodgers (1992-98), Florida (1998), New York Mets (1998-05), San Diego (2006) and Oakland (2007). His 396 homers are easily the most as a catcher, according to the Elias Sports Bureau. Carlton Fisk is second with 351, followed by Johnny Bench (327) and Yogi Berra (306). Piazza thanked his family, teams and managers, some of his teammates—and even owners, general managers, minor league staffs and reporters. “Within the eight years I spent in New York, I was able to take a different look at the game of baseball,” Piazza said. “I wasn’t just a young kid that was wet behind the ears anymore—I was learning from other veteran guys like Johnny Franco, who taught me how to deal with the pressures of playing in New York, and Al Leiter, who knew what it took to win a world championship.” He did not bring up two of the more memorable moments in his career: When the Yankees’ Roger Clemens beaned him on July 8, 2000, and when Clemens threw the broken barrel of Piazza’s bat in his direction in Game 2 of the World Series that October. Clemens denied intent both times. “Last but certainly not least, I can’t say goodbye without thanking the fans,” Piazza said. “I can’t recall a time in my career where I didn’t feel embraced by all of you. Los Angeles, San Diego, Oakland and Miami—whether it was at home or on the road, you were all so supportive over the years. “But I have to say that my time with the Mets wouldn’t have been the same without the greatest fans in the world. One of the hardest moments of my career, was walking off the field at Shea Stadium and saying goodbye. My relationship with you made my time in New York the happiest of my career and for that, I will always be grateful.” He's going in as a Met. Case closed. And retire his damn number.

Benjamin Grimm May 20 2008 02:27 PM

I really don't think he warrants a retired number. But I do think he should have an NY on his cap.

soupcan May 20 2008 02:31 PM

For the Red Sox to retire a number the player has to be a Hall of Famer and has to have spent at least 10 years with the team. That's the way to do it.

metirish May 20 2008 02:31 PM

Hardly surprising that a class act like Piazza thanked all. ] Here's the full text of his statement, released through his agent Dan Lozano: After 19 wonderful years, I have come to the decision to officially retire from Major League Baseball. At this point in my career and after discussing my options with my wife, family and agent, I felt it is time to start a new chapter in my life. It has been an amazing journey and everything I have, I owe to God, for without His help, none of this would be possible. He blessed me with the ability to play the greatest game in the world and it has been a dream come true. In June of this year, it will be 20 years ago when the Los Angeles Dodgers organization selected me in the 62nd round of the amateur draft and I'm sure neither of us saw this coming. I would like to start off by thanking Peter O'Malley and the Dodger organization for giving me the opportunity 20 years ago...you gave me birth to a life that never in my wildest dreams did I think was possible. I'd like to thank Fred Wilpon, Nelson Doubleday and the New York Mets organization for giving me an opportunity to fulfill yet another dream, playing in a World Series. Steve Phillips, for not just bringing me to New York, but for having the confidence and vision to keep me in a Met uniform long-term. Within the eight years I spent in New York, I was able to take a different look at the game of baseball...I wasn't just a young kid that was wet behind the ears anymore - I was learning from other veteran guys like Johnny Franco, who taught me how to deal with the pressures of playing in New York and Al Leiter who knew what it took to win a World Championship. That knowledge is what helped me play for as long as I have and enjoy the career that I had. I'd like to thank New York Mets clubhouse manager, Charlie Samuels for always being on the same page and one step ahead of me. Kevin Towers and Mr. Wolff are two gentlemen that I wish to thank for allowing me to keep the sun from setting just a little while longer. To all of my teammates with whom I shared the field of battle, thanks for the countless memories. To the managers along the way that brought out the best in me - Tommy Lasorda, Bobby Valentine, Art Howe...and in limited time together, Jim Leyland, Willie Randolph, Bruce Bochy and Bob Geren - it was a pleasure playing for all of you. I'd also like to thank all of the major and minor league staffs that played a part in the development of my career - I couldn't have done it without all of you. To the media - I thank you for the overall fairness of your reporting throughout my career, although erroneous at times, I think we had a pretty good relationship over the years and some of you I'll never forget. I'd like to thank my agent, Dan Lozano and everyone else behind the scenes at the Beverly Hills Sports Council for taking care of me my entire career. Danny is like a brother to me and without his guidance and patience, I wouldn't be where I am today. To my family who I love so much...mom and dad, you always believed in me, sometimes more than I believed in myself...you were always there with love and support. To my brothers, for always being in my corner, no matter what. Being able to share the joys of being a big leaguer with you guys over all of these years made my career, our career...and I don't think it would have been the same any other way. My beautiful wife Alicia. These last few years were as new for you as they were for me. Through the different cities and the birth of our amazing daughter, Nicoletta, I am eternally grateful to have you by my side. The thought of what the future has in store for us, brings a smile to my face because I can't wait to start the newest chapter of both our lives, together. You truly are an angel and I am blessed to have you as my wife. I love you. Last but certainly not least, I can't say goodbye without thanking the fans. I can't recall a time in my career where I didn't feel embraced by all of you. Los Angeles, San Diego, Oakland and Miami - whether it was at home or on the road, you were all so supportive over the years. But I have to say that my time with the Mets wouldn't have been the same without the greatest fans in the world. One of the hardest moments of my career, was walking off the field at Shea Stadium and saying goodbye. My relationship with you made my time in New York the happiest of my career and for that, I will always be grateful. So today, I walk away with no regrets. I knew this day was coming and over the last two years, I started to make my peace with it. For 19 years, I gave it my all and left everything on the field. God bless and thanks for a wonderful ride.

Benjamin Grimm May 20 2008 02:32 PM

="soupcan"]For the Red Sox to retire a number the player has to be a Hall of Famer and has to have spent at least 10 years with the team. That's the way to do it. Yeah. I like that policy.

seawolf17 May 20 2008 02:35 PM

No on the retired number, yes on the interlocking NY in bronze in Cooperstown. And yes on Piazza Day this summer. Too bad he couldn't catch on with anyone.

HahnSolo May 20 2008 02:36 PM

="Benjamin Grimm"] ="soupcan"]For the Red Sox to retire a number the player has to be a Hall of Famer and has to have spent at least 10 years with the team. That's the way to do it. Yeah. I like that policy. Of course in the free agency era, that's somewhat restricting. That would mean there is no chance at all for Pedro Martinez to have his number retired by them.

Valadius May 20 2008 02:37 PM

I'll never forget when I heard that Mike Piazza had been traded to the Mets. I was playing in Little League when one of my teammates who I couldn't stand told me. I refused to believe him until I got home. Sure enough, Piazza was a Met. I remember thinking it was an awesome trade especially because I thought that nobody named Geoff Goetz could be any good. Sure enough, I was right. Many of you grew up with Tom Seaver as your Met hero. Well, I'm the lone poster of the generation that grew up with Mike Piazza as their Met hero. He was the Mets superstar, the sure-fire All-Star pick every year and sure-fire Hall-of-Famer. Hell, he was good enough that there was a Nintendo 64 game called Mike Piazza's Strike Zone. Out of all the players in baseball, they chose Mike Piazza. He was one of the best players in the game, and the player Mets fans of my generation had a poster of in their bedroom. He will be the second player to go into the Hall of Fame as a Met, and as such, his number should be retired. You guys had Seaver. His number's retired. Let my generation have Piazza's number on the wall.

soupcan May 20 2008 02:39 PM

HahnSolo wrote: Of course in the free agency era, that's somewhat restricting. That would mean there is no chance at all for Pedro Martinez to have his number retired by them. So be it. Having a policy like that emphasizes the type of honor a retired number is and should be. Right now the Mets can say that that is their policy as well considering Seaver is the only retired player number. Sorry Mike. Wright and Reyes are your next possible candidates.

AG/DC May 20 2008 02:39 PM

Six years, but five of the top ten seasons by a starting pitcher in their history, I would guess.

Benjamin Grimm May 20 2008 02:39 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on May 20 2008 02:41 PM

Sorry. Seaver deserves it, Piazza doesn't. Piazza only had about three and a half good seasons with the Mets. For half of his time with the Mets, he was in decline. And what about the generation that had Keith Hernandez and Darryl Strawberry and Dwight Gooden posters on their bedroom walls? They're not getting to gaze at a retired number on the wall, and I think they're managing to get on with their lives. Don't envy us our 41 on the wall, Valadius. Instead, envy us our World Championship.

soupcan May 20 2008 02:40 PM

Valadius wrote: I'll never forget when I heard that Mike Piazza had been traded to the Mets. I was playing in Little League I was in the Grille Room at Shea having a beer.

Benjamin Grimm May 20 2008 02:42 PM

I think it was the first big Mets transaction that I learned about on the Internet.

Willets Point May 20 2008 02:42 PM

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Sorry. Seaver deserves it, Piazza doesn't. Piazza only had about three and a half good seasons with the Mets. For half of his time with the Mets, he was in decline. And he was GAY!

soupcan May 20 2008 02:44 PM

="Willets Point"]And he was GAY! That wouldn't be an issue - they'd just put his number on the right field wall.

soupcan May 20 2008 02:45 PM

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Don't envy us our 41 on the wall, Valadius. Instead, envy us our World Championship. Oh, snap.

Benjamin Grimm May 20 2008 02:46 PM

Just making sure the boy has his priorities in order.

AG/DC May 20 2008 02:49 PM

Nintendo 64 briefly considered Jerry Koosman's Strike Zone.

Valadius May 20 2008 02:51 PM

You know how close I was to being able to experience a Mets World Championship? About four months. I was born in February 1987. My number one goal in life, besides my own personal goals, is to be able to witness a Mets championship.

Benjamin Grimm May 20 2008 02:53 PM

I doubt you would have gotten much excitement out of the 1986 Championship if you had been born four months earlier. When I think of how many Cubs and Red Sox and White Sox fans went from cradle to grave without seeing their team win a World Series, I'm very grateful that I have 1986 in my back pocket. (I was alive in 1969, and aware that the Mets had won a World Series, but it didn't mean anything to me. I knew it made my grandfather happy, though, and that thought is what led me to start caring about the Mets about a year and a half later.)

batmagadanleadoff May 20 2008 03:02 PM

It might be Piazza v. Clemens all over again five years from now. If Clemens never pitches again, they'll both make their HOF ballot debuts together on the same ballot for the Summer of 2013 induction ceremony. Interesting stuff.

sharpie May 20 2008 03:06 PM

Sammy Sosa and Barry Bonds might be on the same ballot as Clemens and Piazza. Interesting year, 2012.

batmagadanleadoff May 20 2008 03:16 PM

Julio Franco. And Alberto Castillo.

G-Fafif May 20 2008 03:23 PM

Valadius wrote: Many of you grew up with Tom Seaver as your Met hero. Well, I'm the lone poster of the generation that grew up with Mike Piazza as their Met hero. I'm with the kid even if I'm presumably twice his age. Piazza defined one of the three wonderful eras of Mets baseball, strode it like a Colossus. I grew up with Tom Seaver as my baseball hero but when it comes to this team, the only generation I'm part of is Generation Met, and for my demographic money, Piazza is no less than the third-most important player this franchise has ever had. If you want to split the mid-'80s vote several ways, then only Seaver definitively outweighs his impact (though I'd still put Mex a bit ahead in the scheme of things). I can't look at 31 on anybody else's front or back. I can't see the point of mothballing it and leaving it in limbo. Mike Piazza packed a career's worth of thrills into an eight-year stay, even if only five, at the outside, were prime. But what prime they were. Let's give ourselves a treat. Let's nudge the pantheon open a wee bit more. Let's give Tom some company. 41, shake hands with 17 and then the two of you high-five 31 before Citi Field gathers rust. We will be no cheaper for it. I swear on a stack of ten-run innings, we'll only be enriched.

Benjamin Grimm May 20 2008 03:33 PM

I don't see it. I really don't. I'd give 31 to the next journeyman reliever, and never have a single regret.

Batty31 May 20 2008 03:42 PM

I'm with G-Fafif and Valadius. I can't see anyone else wearing the number, and I've been a fan since 73.

Gwreck May 20 2008 04:00 PM

Benjamin Grimm wrote: I don't see it. I really don't. I'd give 31 to the next journeyman reliever, and never have a single regret. Sacrilege. That being said, I would have no problem whatsoever putting 24 or 8 on somebody's back. Makes no sense those 2 have been mothballed for so long.

Nymr83 May 20 2008 04:09 PM

]“But I have to say that my time with the Mets wouldn’t have been the same without the greatest fans in the world. One of the hardest moments of my career, was walking off the field at Shea Stadium and saying goodbye. My relationship with you made my time in New York the happiest of my career and for that, I will always be grateful.” and people say the boobirds turn off players, pfft!

Centerfield May 20 2008 04:25 PM

It's certainly clear that Piazza thinks of himself as a Met. If it were up to me, he'd go in as a Met and his number would be retired.

Centerfield May 20 2008 04:26 PM

Oh, and when they have his day, make sure it's a beautiful afternoon game on a Saturday or Sunday. Don't use it as a way to sell tickets to a Wednesday night game against the Pirates.

G-Fafif May 20 2008 04:28 PM

Centerfield wrote: Don't use it as a way to sell tickets to a Wednesday night game against the Pirates. Lordy, let's hope we're not in that position again for many, many years to come. (And even if we are, amen brother.)

Rockin' Doc May 20 2008 04:54 PM

I think that a Hall of Fame worthy player that spent the majority of their time in a Mets uniform should be given serious consideration to having their number retired by the Mets. The only thing Piazza failed to do for the Mets was lead them to a World Series Championship. There wasn't much more he could have done for the franchise when you look at his place in the Mets list of All Time Leaders. 1st - SLG 2nd - HR, RBI, Games caught 3rd - OPS, TB 4th - AVG, Doubles 5th - OBP Not that I want the Mets to start retiring player numbers in droves, but I think it says something that a team with a 46+ years of history has only had one player that they deem worthy of having their number retired. If I was to retire the number of any player that has worn the Mets uniform, it would be #31 for Mike Piazza.

Nymr83 May 20 2008 05:37 PM

]If I was to retire the number of any player that has worn the Mets uniform, it would be #31 for Mike Piazza. I assume you mean besides the one that is already retired? Heres an interesting question for you all: regardless of your position on whose number should be retired, how would you rank the posibilities from 1 to 10? I'd probably say Hernandez, Piazza, Gooden, Carter, Koosman, Strawberry, Franco, H.Johnson, B.Jones, Kranepool

TheOldMole May 20 2008 05:49 PM

No Harrelson?

metirish May 20 2008 05:53 PM

Maz on the pre-game was asked what he will remember Piazza for , Maz said he will remembe him as " the best and most feared hitter the Mets have ever had , yeah I said ever"....Yallof being the eegit he is played it for laughs and asked..." huh huh better than you Maz"....

Nymr83 May 20 2008 06:00 PM

Daryl Strawberry was a better hitter for the Mets than Piazza. perhaps Piazza was more valuable as a catcher, but Strawberry's raw offensive numbers are flat out better.

Benjamin Grimm May 20 2008 06:07 PM

B. Jones? You're taking the piss, right?

seawolf17 May 20 2008 06:09 PM

I think we need a little more perspective before we retire his number, that's all. It's great to be emotional, and I love Mike Piazza like few other Mets I've watched. But will his legacy stand the test of time? Maybe. Look back in five or ten years... and if it does, then you retire it.

Willets Point May 20 2008 06:10 PM

I could see 31 being jointly retired for Piazza and Franco. I don't think it would violate the Mets standards to honor two beloved sons that way.

seawolf17 May 20 2008 06:12 PM

Willets Point wrote: I could see 31 being jointly retired for Piazza and Franco. I don't think it would violate the Mets standards to honor two beloved sons that way. I actually think that would be neat.

SteveJRogers May 20 2008 06:27 PM

Willets Point wrote: I could see 31 being jointly retired for Piazza and Franco. I don't think it would violate the Mets standards to honor two beloved sons that way. I'm not so sure Franco qualifies as a beloved son though. Franco has a lot of Carter in him, but in this case the hype and legend is much greater than the actuality.

cooby May 20 2008 06:32 PM

batmagadanleadoff wrote: It might be Piazza v. Clemens all over again five years from now. If Clemens never pitches again, they'll both make their HOF ballot debuts together on the same ballot for the Summer of 2013 induction ceremony. Interesting stuff. Sounds like a CPF field trip

metirish May 20 2008 06:41 PM

Sounds like a great idea Cooby , I started following the Mets a few years after I came here and certainly Piazza is my favorite Mets player ever , I have a great affinity for those Mets teams , the late 90's team of Piazza , Leiter , Franco , Cook and Wendell and the rest . I don't really care about retiring his number , I agree that a strict stanard should be enforced and the Mets seem on point with that. A day for Mike at Shea would be great.

Benjamin Grimm May 20 2008 06:42 PM

I doubt that Clemens will be a first-ballot guy, given his recent misadventures. He may eventually get in (although I hope not) but I doubt that Piazza will be sharing his day with Clemens. Or with Bonds for that matter.

themetfairy May 20 2008 07:50 PM

Centerfield wrote: It's certainly clear that Piazza thinks of himself as a Met. If it were up to me, he'd go in as a Met and his number would be retired. I'll second that thought.

batmagadanleadoff May 20 2008 08:19 PM

Benjamin Grimm wrote: I doubt that Clemens will be a first-ballot guy, given his recent misadventures.... but I doubt that Piazza will be sharing his day with Clemens. I have a feeling that Piazza and Clemens will be juxtaposed against each other throughout the whole HOF process no matter how Clemens fares.

AG/DC May 20 2008 08:25 PM

SteveJRogers wrote: ="Willets Point"]I could see 31 being jointly retired for Piazza and Franco. I don't think it would violate the Mets standards to honor two beloved sons that way. I'm not so sure Franco qualifies as a beloved son though. Franco has a lot of Carter in him, but in this case the hype and legend is much greater than the actuality. Franco has hype and legend? What the heck?

metirish May 20 2008 08:26 PM

Thursday will be the ten year anniversary since Piazza was traded to the Mets.

metirish May 20 2008 08:32 PM

Interesting bit in a Mark Hermann Newsday article. ] Piazza won't hibernate or stagnate. He has talked of traveling to Italy. He has hinted about studying to become a deacon in the Catholic Church. We all wish him well. More than that, we wish he were still here. Hermann's top ten Mets. 1. Tom Seaver 2. Mike Piazza 3. Darryl Strawberry 4. Keith Hernandez 5. Jerry Koosman 6. Dwight Gooden 7. Gary Carter 8. Tug McGraw 9. Edgardo Alfonzo 10. David Wright

metsguyinmichigan May 20 2008 09:17 PM

the sad part of that list is that Gooden and Strawberry could have been Nos. 1 and 2. I'll always see them for what they should have been instead of what they were, which I suppose isn't fair. Put the number on the wall -- quickly.

Rockin' Doc May 21 2008 05:23 AM

RD - "If I was to retire the number of any player that has worn the Mets uniform, it would be #31 for Mike Piazza." Nymr - "I assume you mean besides the one that is already retired?" Certainly, of course. Sorry if I failed to make that point clear. Seaver's #41 is precisely where it should be, I just feel it could use some very select company. I believe Piazza's #31 is the most deserving number to join him.

MFS62 May 21 2008 06:26 AM

Valadius wrote: Many of you grew up with Tom Seaver as your Met hero. Well, I'm the lone poster of the generation that grew up with Mike Piazza as their Met hero. I grew up with Al Jackson as my Mets hero. As for Piazza, I tend to agree with many of the things Benjamin Grimm has said in this thread. Later

Fman99 May 21 2008 07:00 AM

mario25 wrote: Guy hit some serious bombs too..He was a great Met during his time here and an amazing hitter... He hit the farthest home run I ever saw at Shea. A bomb that he pulled to left center that went towards the pavilion tent area, in [url=http://www.ultimatemets.com/gamedetail.php?gameno=6178&tabno=A]this game.[/url]

AG/DC May 21 2008 07:08 AM

I grew up with Doug Flynn as my hero. If they retired his number, I'd be confused and worried. That said, I wouldn't get upset one way or the other, as long as whatever they did reflected deep and ocnsidered thought with regard to their history, and connecting fans of the future with it, and less regard for kowtowing to to sponsors.

seawolf17 May 21 2008 08:00 AM

AG/DC wrote: I grew up with Doug Flynn as my hero. If they retired his number, I'd be confused and worried. That said, I wouldn't get upset one way or the other, as long as whatever they did reflected deep and ocnsidered thought with regard to their history, and connecting fans of the future with it, and less regard for kowtowing to to sponsors. So you're saying that retiring 31 for Mike "Papa John's" Piazza sponsored by Banco Popular would be a bad idea. Got it.

AG/DC May 21 2008 08:07 AM

Baskin Robbins Presents 31.

soupcan May 21 2008 08:14 AM

metirish wrote: Hermann's top ten Mets. 1. Tom Seaver 2. Mike Piazza 3. Darryl Strawberry 4. Keith Hernandez 5. Jerry Koosman 6. Dwight Gooden 7. Gary Carter 8. Tug McGraw 9. Edgardo Alfonzo 10. David Wright I think its a little early for Wright to be on this list. Any one of Agee, HoJo, Dykstra, Harrelson, Mookie, Franco maybe could be there instead of him right now.

AG/DC May 21 2008 08:17 AM

That's not what the Crane Pool says. Gery Carter isn't even close.

soupcan May 21 2008 08:26 AM

I think Hermann's list is more about symbolic importance as opposed to statistical.

AG/DC May 21 2008 08:41 AM

No doubt, plus some personal preference, which is fine. When I grew up, though, there was no greater symbol than the utterly statistical mediocre Ed Kranepool. Every team should have a Kranepool. Symbolic value can get over-stated (cough! jeter! couh!) though, and we have to be very careful before we enshrine it. Which isn't to dismiss it at all. I tend to defend the retiremeent of 37, which is all about symbolic value. It's just that winds of consensus on these things can be manipulated, or blow for reasons that later seem silly. For two weeks last summer, Met fans were falling over each other to acknowledge appreciation for the power of Glavine. I've heard littlle of that of late.

SteveJRogers May 21 2008 09:50 AM

metsguyinmichigan wrote: the sad part of that list is that Gooden and Strawberry could have been Nos. 1 and 2. I'll always see them for what they should have been instead of what they were, which I suppose isn't fair. Put the number on the wall -- quickly. Amen to that about Doc and Straw.

Grote15 May 21 2008 11:47 AM

The first Met names I recall are Al Luplow and Krane and in 67 Seaver was my Idol... I don't think I would retire Piazza's number, if nothing else due to respect for guys like Koosman,Kranepool,Clendenon,Cleon,Agee,Staub,Swan,Hojo,Doc,Straw and other players that have made up the totality of the franchise. I feel like its sort of all or none....No disrespect to Mr. Piazza who is wish well. On a lighter note a picture a Mike Piazza day with Howie Rose and a bunch of the 2000 guys, introducing "our man of the hour" Mike Piazza and you NEW METS MANAGER BOBBY VALENTINE!!!!!!!!!

AG/DC May 21 2008 02:39 PM

Paul Lukas logs in on the story, and, wow, I disagree (or find him to be distorting) on pretty much every point. And I don't really care about the cap.

Benjamin Grimm May 21 2008 02:43 PM

Wow indeed. And those first two points look like they could have been written by Bret Sabermetric.

Gwreck May 21 2008 03:28 PM

Lukas' article: ="Paul Lukas"] Good riddance, Mike Piazza By Paul Lukas Page 2 Now that Mike Piazza has retired, people are already debating whether his Hall of Fame plaque should depict him in a Mets cap or a Dodgers cap. If you look at the numbers, it's no contest -- his greatest years were in L.A. And as a lifelong Mets fan who never warmed up to Piazza, I don't want his enshrinement tied to my team, anyway. Here's why: Put an L.A. cap on him and let's pretend New York never happened. 1. When it became apparent that he'd have to move from catcher to first base, Piazza's behavior ranged from disingenuous to manipulative. A classy player would've stepped up and said, "I'll do anything to help the team -- where do you want me to play?" But Piazza kept playing dumb, tossing out quotes like, "Well, management hasn't said anything to me about it, so I really don't know." Right, the whole city of New York is talking about it but you have no clue. Sure. When skipper Art Howe eventually mentioned to some reporters that Piazza would be taking some infield practice at first base and the reporters then told Piazza, he acted all offended because Howe didn't tell him beforehand. Look, dude, just play where the manager tells you to play and shut up. 2. One reason he didn't want to play first base was that he was obsessed with that stupid record for most home runs hit by a catcher -- a record that exactly one person in town cared about. Can you guess who that one person was? (Hint: Rhymes with "Mike Piazza.") 3. Of course, once Piazza finally played first base, we found out the real reason why he'd been avoiding the issue: The guy's a horrible athlete. Great hitter, yes, but not a good athlete. No coordination, no footwork. And it went way beyond his inability to play first base. I defy anyone to find one instance -- one single instance -- of Mike Piazza properly executing a slide into second or third base. Never happened. Why? Get this: MIKE PIAZZA CAN'T SLIDE. It's true. When he tried to slide, he'd spaz out and trip. Really! 4. When the New York Post implied that Piazza was gay, he held that little press conference where he declared his heterosexuality. OK, fine. But he missed a huge opportunity to say, "But what if it was true? What if I was gay? So what? What if one of my teammates is gay? What if one of YOU is gay? It's no big deal. Listen, I'm straight, but this whole thing is really a nonissue." In a city with a huge gay population, that was an opportunity to show some real community leadership, and he totally spit the bit. 5. A few days after Roger Clemens beaned him in 2000, Piazza said that the incident had made him reassess the DH. "I thought the DH could be a good thing for me later in my career," he said, "but now I see that it's bad for baseball, because the pitcher can throw at the batter with no fear of retaliation." So what did he do after leaving the Mets? He shopped himself to American League teams with hopes of becoming a DH. None of them were interested, so he signed with the Padres, but then he went to the A's, where he happily DH'd. Hypocrite. 6. "The runner goes, here's the throw from Piazza -- and it comes in on two hops." Was Piazza a tremendous offensive player? Yes. Did I sometimes cheer for him? Yes. But he never fulfilled his potential as a star, in the fullest sense of that term. Too bad. 1 might be a valid point but lacks any substantive facts so we can't really know for sure. The line about "tossing out quotes like..." is particularly disingenuous. 2 again, lacking facts. 3 the first half of seems ok. But the sliding thing is a piece of crap. He defies the reader to find "one instance" of Piazza properly executing a slide, but cannot be bothered to find one of Piazza not. C'mon Paul, that's just lazy. If we believe you that there are tons of examples, you could certainly find one for us, right? 4 and 5 are just stupid.

G-Fafif May 21 2008 04:12 PM

It takes all kinds and everyone's entitled to his or her opinion, but this was atrocious, especially from someone whose work I've long admired. The bit about the DH is particularly absurd. Lukas' piece reads like a parody of somebody who would strain to find Bad Stuff 'Bout Piazza. Richard Grossinger affected the same tone in assessing Piazza in his bitchy, too-precious, frustrating and ultimately unsatisfying The New York Mets: Ethnography, Myth and Subtext (you would think with a title like that it couldn't miss): ]Mike Piazza, the epitome of the millennial New York Mets, a huge numbers and power guy around whom nothing ever jelled; a bogus catcher (he needed a position), he couldn't throw out base runners if his life depended on it... he was a hard guy to see past, sucking all the energy without converting that charisma into championship-level leadership... yes, Piazza was good, but he wasn't a difference-maker; he was more noise and hoopla than clutch or bottom line. Like I said, it takes all kinds.

SteveJRogers May 21 2008 05:01 PM

]Now that Mike Piazza has retired, people are already debating whether his Hall of Fame plaque should depict him in a Mets cap or a Dodgers cap. If you look at the numbers, it's no contest -- his greatest years were in L.A. And as a lifelong Mets fan who never warmed up to Piazza, No need to read further. Already he is admiting a bias against Piazza, the rest is just semantics. But unlike Delgado, or even Gary Carter, Piazza still gave the Mets very solid years for a guy in decline. ]1. When it became apparent that he'd have to move from catcher to first base, Piazza's behavior ranged from disingenuous to manipulative. A classy player would've stepped up and said, "I'll do anything to help the team -- where do you want me to play?" But Piazza kept playing dumb, tossing out quotes like, "Well, management hasn't said anything to me about it, so I really don't know." Right, the whole city of New York is talking about it but you have no clue. Sure. When skipper Art Howe eventually mentioned to some reporters that Piazza would be taking some infield practice at first base and the reporters then told Piazza, he acted all offended because Howe didn't tell him beforehand. Look, dude, just play where the manager tells you to play and shut up. Show me where Piazza said that. A good journalist should be able to back up their use of quotations and actions. And since when does any player/manager/GM/owner actually come out and respond to media and radio caller SPECULATION if it hasn't actually been talked about amongst themselves. Did Lukas learn editorial writing from Wally Matthews? ]2. One reason he didn't want to play first base was that he was obsessed with that stupid record for most home runs hit by a catcher -- a record that exactly one person in town cared about. Can you guess who that one person was? (Hint: Rhymes with "Mike Piazza.") But was it really hurting the team though? 1) Was there a Todd Hundley type that Piazza was holding back by still catching (and no, Phillips doesn't count) 2) You didn't know it at the time, but Piazza made Jason Giambi of 2008 look like Keith Hernandez out there! ]3. Of course, once Piazza finally played first base, we found out the real reason why he'd been avoiding the issue: The guy's a horrible athlete. Great hitter, yes, but not a good athlete. No coordination, no footwork. And it went way beyond his inability to play first base. I defy anyone to find one instance -- one single instance -- of Mike Piazza properly executing a slide into second or third base. Never happened. Why? Get this: MIKE PIAZZA CAN'T SLIDE. It's true. When he tried to slide, he'd spaz out and trip. Really! Very, very picky there. Al Leiter was embarrassing as a hitter, but when Leiter was on, did you NOT want Leiter on that mound because he'd embarrass himself at the plate several times that night? ]4. When the New York Post implied that Piazza was gay, he held that little press conference where he declared his heterosexuality. OK, fine. But he missed a huge opportunity to say, "But what if it was true? What if I was gay? So what? What if one of my teammates is gay? What if one of YOU is gay? It's no big deal. Listen, I'm straight, but this whole thing is really a nonissue." In a city with a huge gay population, that was an opportunity to show some real community leadership, and he totally spit the bit. And there are Met fans who find fault with Delgado because of his stance against the US using his country as target practice. But if Delgado produced like Piazza, I'm sure those fans would begrude his status as major contributor without using it as a reason why he should not be remembered fondly as a Met. ]5. A few days after Roger Clemens beaned him in 2000, Piazza said that the incident had made him reassess the DH. "I thought the DH could be a good thing for me later in my career," he said, "but now I see that it's bad for baseball, because the pitcher can throw at the batter with no fear of retaliation." So what did he do after leaving the Mets? He shopped himself to American League teams with hopes of becoming a DH. None of them were interested, so he signed with the Padres, but then he went to the A's, where he happily DH'd. Hypocrite. Not the first, or last time someone, let alone a baseball player, made a declaritive comment after a real bad situation, then went back on his word, but again, show me where he said that. ]6. "The runner goes, here's the throw from Piazza -- and it comes in on two hops." Which really is the most overrated thing about catching. Please, to say nothing about how overrated the stolen base is in general. Did opponents run more on Piazza than other teams? Well maybe, but you'd better back that one up with some stats along the lines of it costing the Mets wins and such. ]Was Piazza a tremendous offensive player? Yes. Did I sometimes cheer for him? Yes. But he never fulfilled his potential as a star, in the fullest sense of that term. Too bad. Never fulfilled his potential as a star huh? Or is it that he never fulfilled his potential to win a championship? That probably is what Lukas means. Piazza was more Pattrick Ewing than a Darryl Strawberry in this regard.

Nymr83 May 21 2008 05:05 PM

]5. A few days after Roger Clemens beaned him in 2000, Piazza said that the incident had made him reassess the DH. "I thought the DH could be a good thing for me later in my career," he said, "but now I see that it's bad for baseball, because the pitcher can throw at the batter with no fear of retaliation." So what did he do after leaving the Mets? He shopped himself to American League teams with hopes of becoming a DH. None of them were interested, so he signed with the Padres, but then he went to the A's, where he happily DH'd. Hypocrite. Not the first, or last time someone, let alone a baseball player, made a declaritive comment after a real bad situation, then went back on his word, but again, as Bill would say, show me where he said that. i don't think that make him a hypocrit at all. he thinks its bad for the game, but that doesnt mean its bad for him and he'll take advantage of it as long as it exists.

AG/DC May 21 2008 11:01 PM

A properly executed Piazza slide: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWj9FLYl3zA Eat it.

themetfairy May 22 2008 05:27 AM

J-FAFIF wrote a nice piece about Piazza [url=http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121138526596210955.html]here[/url].

metirish May 22 2008 07:16 AM

Harsh from Lukas and what's with the standing up for gay new yorkers angle , he seems especially upset over that , weird.

AG/DC May 22 2008 07:45 AM

I have mostly no problem with that. Keep in mind that UniWatch was a column born in The Village Voice, and he still has gay readers. Where he's wrong is the difference between what he demanded and what Piazza actually said isn't large at all. What Lukas wanted: "But what if it was true? What if I was gay? So what? What if one of my teammates is gay? What if one of YOU is gay? It's no big deal. Listen, I'm straight, but this whole thing is really a nonissue." What Piazza said: "I'm not gay. I'm heterosexual. I can't control what people think. I date women" But added, "In this day and age, it's irrelevant. I don't think it would be a problem at all." Personally, I think this they both could have been stronger, but I don't think you could drive a bike between what Lukas said and what Piazza said, they're so close. One says "no big deal" and the other says "irrelevant." And what Piazza said came with risk, what Lukas said did not.

MFS62 May 22 2008 08:28 AM

Every one of the issues raised by Lucas has probably been discussed, even debated, on this board. (Well, maybe not the sliding thing) But Lucas has taken the negative side each of those issues and sumarized them all in one place. I don't think any of us have done that. When he doesn't like somebody, he really doesn't like somebody. Later

metirish May 22 2008 09:05 AM

Tim Marchman on Piazza. ] Piazza Retires as Baseball's Greatest Catcher Baseball By TIM MARCHMAN Now that Mike Piazza has declined into the vale of years, having formally announced the end of his 16-year major league career yesterday, it's time to state as fact what's long been plainly true: With the possible exception of Negro League legend Josh Gibson, Piazza was the best catcher in baseball history. It was a privilege to watch him play in New York for so many years, and one can only hope that when he's immortalized in bronze at Cooperstown, a Mets cap will be perched atop his head, right there with his mullet and moustache. From his ruthless hammering of the Yankees to his apocalyptic hot streaks (he hit .430 AVG/.509 OBA/.790 SLG in his last 29 games in 1998 as the Mets chased a playoff spot), from his run-ins with Roger Clemens to his game-winning home run in the first sporting event in New York after September 11, 2001, from the press conference he announced to proclaim his heterosexuality to the image of perfect stillness and balance he left with the fans as he launched warheads to right field, Piazza seared his mark on New York baseball. Still, I honestly don't feel that even rabid Mets partisans have a sense of just how monstrously good he was. The vast distance between Piazza's hitting and that of all other catchers ever is staggering, almost impossible to describe, and was remarkably unappreciated in his prime. In 1997 he hit .363/.431/.638 while playing his home games in Dodger Stadium, which damped offense by 7%, which would have been worthy of an MVP award if he'd been a first baseman. Somehow voters picked Colorado's Larry Walker, a right fielder who played his home games in Coors Field, which inflated offense by 22%. Rather than idiocy on the part of the writers who vote for the award, I've always thought this reflected disbelief. Piazza's numbers were so preposterous that baseball couldn't really absorb their meaning. From 1993 to 2002, which isn't an arbitrary selection — it's the decade from his debut to the beginning of his physical breakdown — Piazza's OPS+ was seventh-best in baseball, essentially tied with those of Manny Ramirez, Jim Thome, Gary Sheffield, and Albert Belle. His hitting would have been Hall of Fame-class had it come from a first baseman or a left fielder; with the possible exception of Johnny Bench, he's the only major league catcher ever of which this is true. To say that he towered over the competition with the bat is a gross understatement, and his career home runs record for catchers (he's the only one ever to top 400) is the least of it. In that 1997 season, for instance, Piazza was credited with 150 runs created. No other catcher has ever topped 129, and only four others — Gabby Harnett, Roy Campanella, Bill Dickey, and Bench — ever topped 120. They all did it once; Piazza did it four times. Going by adjusted OPS+, which, like runs created, is available at baseball-reference.com, Campanella had three seasons that would have cracked Piazza's top seven, Mickey Cochrane had two, Bench and Dickey hadone apiece, and Yogi Berra had none. And while Piazza played in a hitter's era, he played in the worst hitter's parks of his day, against the toughest competition in the sport's history. This is the point where one is supposed to acknowledge that while all this may be so, defense is the most important part of a catcher's job, thus somehow making Piazza much the inferior of several other players. This involves hoodoo. Given levels of competition, Bench, a legendary defender, was probably the second-best-hitting catcher ever. He created 93 runs per 162 games — an astounding 23 less than Piazza, in a career of equal length. Was he really 23 runs better per year than Piazza with the glove? It's possible, but the burden of proof would be on the person making this extraordinary claim. Excepting the odd freak season, there's little reason to think that the best catchers are worth much more than 10 runs above average per year, or the worst much more than 10 below. Credit the two at these poles, and it still doesn't make up the difference in offense. What's more, Piazza, despite falling victim to the well-known fallacy by which a catcher's defensive reputation declines inverse to his offensive numbers, was a perfectly decent catcher. He was lousy at throwing out runners, but then he was playing in an era when the stolen base was more or less irrelevant, and he was solid or better at other aspects of the game before his body began to fall apart. Anyone arguing that he was uniquely bad has to explain why his teams routinely won 90 games and why he generally caught excellent pitching staffs. Of how many bad catchers are these things true? If Piazza was even merely a below-average defender in his prime — and I think that's a fair way to put it — he would be the best major league catcher ever; he was that good a hitter. That he brought so much more to the game, from cheerfully semi-competent heavy metal drumming to absurd facial hair to a Mets pennant to the wonderful (if moderately suspect) legend of how a 62nd-round draft pick turned himself into one of the best players of all time, just made him all the more beloved. No Met has worn no. 31 since his last game with the team, in October 2005; doubtless no Met will ever wear it again. tmarchman@nysun.com Bill Shaikin of the LA Times claims the Dodgers have never recorvered form trading Piazza. ] BILL SHAIKIN / ON BASEBALL Piazza: the blue-plate special He retires without a team, but it should have been as a Dodger The great ones should not bid farewell via e-mail. Mike Piazza deserved to tip his cap and bask in the applause, secure in his place as one of the Dodgers' brightest stars. His place would have been between Tom Lasorda and Sandy Koufax, on opening day, at the end of the Dodgers' stirring parade of players through the decades. Dodger Stadium went nuts when Koufax appeared, and the place would have gone only slightly less berserk with Piazza in the house. But he was not retired then, just unemployed. He never did find a job, and he retired Tuesday, at 39. No standing ovation, no public appearance, just a statement sent to media e-mailboxes. "I walk away with no regrets," Piazza said. "I knew this day was coming and, over the last two years, I started to make my peace with it." It is difficult, even to this day, to make peace with the idea that Piazza did not play out his career with the Dodgers, that they traded perhaps the greatest hitting catcher in history -- and Lasorda's godson, no less. The Dodger Way was no more. It is a decade later, and the Dodgers have yet to recover the tradition, the loyalty and the championships. Piazza was a homegrown superstar, with a story made for Hollywood. The way Lasorda starts to tell the story, five clubs scouted Piazza. "Every one of them said he couldn't play," Lasorda said. So, as a favor to Lasorda, the Dodgers drafted Piazza in 1988, in the 62nd round. Of the 1,433 players selected, he was No. 1,390. He made himself a decent catcher through hard work but, boy, could he hit. As a rookie, in 1993, he hit .318 with 35 home runs. In 1997, his last full season with the Dodgers, he hit .362 with 40 home runs. "He brought the offensive level of what a catcher can do to a level that I don't think can be matched," said Mike Scioscia, his predecessor as the Dodgers' catcher. Piazza loved L.A. -- the fans, the night life, the perennial promise of October -- and L.A. loved him back. But free agency loomed after the 1998 season, initial negotiations did not go well, and all of a sudden L.A. knew he wanted a record-setting contract. Fred Claire, the general manager, figured he had all season to make a deal. The new Fox ownership wanted to rid itself of Piazza and buddy up to the Florida Marlins for television rights purposes, so the corporate suits traded Piazza to the Marlins in May, then told Claire what they had done. "Mike couldn't have been any more shocked than I was," Claire said. "He never wanted to leave," Lasorda said. "He cried." Piazza did get his record contract. The Marlins flipped him to the New York Mets, and the Mets gave him $91 million. This wasn't supposed to happen. Peter O'Malley had told us a family could no longer afford to run a major league team. So he sold to a corporation with deep pockets, and Fox promptly sold off Piazza. But, a few months after portraying Piazza as greedy, Fox signed Kevin Brown for $105 million. Claire and Bill Russell, the manager, were fired one month after the trade. So were three coaches. The Dodgers are on their sixth general manager and fifth manager since then, with no pennants. "The trade changed the whole scope of the Dodgers in the way they had been operated," Claire said. In the various organizational purges, the Dodgers dumped Scioscia, Mickey Hatcher and Ron Roenicke from their minor league staff, Gary Sutherland and Eddie Bane from their scouting staff. They all work -- and win -- in Anaheim now. Piazza did not win a playoff game in L.A., but he got to the World Series with the Mets. He finished his career with the most home runs of any catcher in history, one of eight to hit .300 with 30 homers in a season. He did it six times. Roy Campanella did it three times. No one else did it more than once. "Just to put yourself in the same ballpark as Roy Campanella is saying something," Scioscia said, "and Mike belongs up there." In his statement, Piazza thanked all the teams, managers and fans for which he played, but he singled out the Mets' fans as "the greatest fans in the world." Lasorda, the Dodgers' chief salesman, said he was not offended. He said Piazza was stung by boos at Dodger Stadium, before and after the trade. He would try, he said, to persuade Piazza to wear a Dodgers cap on his Hall of Fame plaque. Persuasion should not have been necessary. The late, great Times columnist Jim Murray called it, two days after the trade: "The Dodgers always have adhered to the Branch Rickey theory of roster cutting that it's better to deal a player a year early than a year late. But in Piazza's case, 10 years early?" bill.shaikin@latimes.com

bmfc1 May 22 2008 09:06 AM

Disturbing observation from Buster Olney: • A quick thought about Piazza: If Roger Clemens doesn't play again, and he and Piazza were to be elected into the Hall of Fame, it's possible that these two stars, who share the dubious history of the 2000 beaning and bat-throwing incident, could be inducted in the same year. But that would seem to be unlikely at this point: The climate among Hall of Fame voters seems to be working against Clemens.

metirish May 22 2008 09:13 AM

] Lasorda, the Dodgers' chief salesman, said he was not offended. He said Piazza was stung by boos at Dodger Stadium, before and after the trade. He would try, he said, to persuade Piazza to wear a Dodgers cap on his Hall of Fame plaque. Doesn't Tommy not know that it's not Mikes choice.

Fman99 May 22 2008 09:17 AM

Paul Lukas and Richard Grossinger are dumb fucking cunts. I'd like to see them simultaneously killed in a staged gay ritual double suicide, a la the football players in "Heathers."

AG/DC May 22 2008 09:18 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on May 22 2008 09:19 AM

The player's opinion is solicited. In a close decision (like this one is), that could swing a choice. On edit: Fman, I'm calling uncle.

batmagadanleadoff May 22 2008 09:18 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on May 22 2008 09:20 AM

metirish wrote: Doesn't Tommy not know that it's not Mikes choice. I could be wrong, but my understanding is that the HOF has the ultimate say. However, the HOF will consider the inductee's request, and in a very close case, might even allow the inductee to decide for himself. This would be the case, where there are more than one acceptable choices.

Benjamin Grimm May 22 2008 09:20 AM

Fman99 wrote: Paul Lukas and Richard Grossinger are dumb fucking cunts. Punch them in the necks!

AG/DC May 22 2008 09:20 AM

Same time-stamp also.

Fman99 May 22 2008 09:21 AM

Benjamin Grimm wrote: ="Fman99"]Paul Lukas and Richard Grossinger are dumb fucking cunts. Punch them in the necks! I thought of that too... a simultaneous double-neck-punch a la the ending of Rocky III with Apollo and Rocky hitting each other and then the picture turning into a painting as a backdrop for the credits.

seawolf17 May 22 2008 09:23 AM

I want to listen in on a debate between fman and Val. That'd be great entertainment.

G-Fafif May 22 2008 09:36 AM

Fman99 wrote: Paul Lukas and Richard Grossinger are dumb fucking cunts. I'd like to see them simultaneously killed in a staged gay ritual double suicide, a la the football players in "Heathers." Any argument that invokes "Heathers" makes sense to me.

Benjamin Grimm May 22 2008 09:36 AM

seawolf17 wrote: I want to listen in on a debate between fman and Val. That'd be great entertainment. Val: FUCK! Fman: Cunt! Val: FUCK! Fman: Cunt! and so on...

Fman99 May 22 2008 09:37 AM

Benjamin Grimm wrote: ="seawolf17"]I want to listen in on a debate between fman and Val. That'd be great entertainment. Val: FUCK! Fman: Cunt! Val: FUCK! Fman: Cunt! and so on... Hey - that's not the only club in my bag, don't you fret.

Frayed Knot May 23 2008 10:09 AM

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Now the talk will heat up again about caps on Cooperstown plaques and retired numbers. As for the cap, Keith says Mets, Gary and Ron say Dodgers. I've long been pretty much indifferent to the cap question, but Gary, in particular, immediately jumped on the "better years as a Dodger" argument, one that gets treated as if fact much of the time but really isn't all that cut-n-dried. The only stat that stands out for Piazza the Dodger is Batting Avg - and even that is somewhat skewed by the one monster year he had in '97 (.363). The rest comes out to be about the same, Piazza the Met walked a bit more and hit for slightly more power essentially reducing the BA difference to approx an extra 3 singles per month while in LA. Then you factor in the length of time plus only WS appearence and ... The following shows his LA and NY stats, both in total and then normalized down to a 500 AB 'average' season: AB PA H 2B HR TB BB K BA OBA SLG Wk Rate IsoP LAD 2,707 2,990 896 115 177 1,548 283 440 .331 .394 .572 .063 .241 NYM 3,478 3,902 1,028 193 220 1,885 424 546 .296 .372 .542 .077 .246 LAD/500 500 552 165 21 33 286 52 81 .331 .394 .572 .063 .241 NYM/500 500 561 148 28 32 271 61 78 .296 .372 .542 .077 .246

Nymr83 May 23 2008 10:44 AM

he had 5 full season as a dodger plus a cup of coffee in '92 and the partial year in '98. he had 6 full seasons as a met plus the trade in '98 and 68 games in 2003. here are the OPS+ numbers for the full years only sorted highest to lowest not chrnologically: LAD- 185, 172, 166, 152, 140 NYM- 155, 147, 137, 134, 108, 104

metirish May 23 2008 05:29 PM

From the Juno Soundtrack. Piazza , New York Catcher.

metsguyinmichigan May 23 2008 06:16 PM

There are many Dodgers in the Hall of Fame, and only one Met. I think that comes into play with the people who make these decisions. At least it seemed to with Carter and Les Expos.

Elster88 May 26 2008 08:08 PM

Did Lukas really bash Piazza for not standing up for gay pride? He ought to stick to witty observations on uniform colors.

Elster88 May 26 2008 08:30 PM

="Benjamin Grimm"] ="soupcan"]For the Red Sox to retire a number the player has to be a Hall of Famer and has to have spent at least 10 years with the team. That's the way to do it. Yeah. I like that policy. It's time to unretire Casey and Hodges then. Putting a restriction on it like this is entirely the wrong way to go about it, even putting aside the point that ten years is a completely arbitrary number. What if a player hits 60 home runs each year for the first nine years of his career, wins five World Series MVPs and wins two of those series hitting home runs in the bottom of the ninth of Game 7? Then he gets hit by a bus in the spring before his tenth year and is paralyzed from the waist down? Sorry buddy, you didn't get the ten years of service. Or how about this slightly more likely scenario: A pitcher joins the franchise as his career is peaking. While on the team, he wins 2 Cy Young Awards, and finishes second twice, third once, and fourth once in Cy Young voting (his only other year on the team he was hurt too much to factor in CYA voting). He is loved by the fans and has the ballpark rocking every time he starts. Oh and throw in that he's the second best pitcher on the team that wins the organization's first title in 76 years. (If you don't think Boston should retire Pedro's number than I don't know how to talk to you. Seems crystal clear to me.) Piazza didn't dominate the way Pedro did but he came in and was immediately great. Best player on the team that went back to the WS for the first time in 14 years. Countless big home runs. He made baseball at Shea fun again. Any Met fan who doesn't think Piazza should have his number retired AND be elected president this November has no soul.

Elster88 May 26 2008 08:46 PM

Valadius wrote: You know how close I was to being able to experience a Mets World Championship? About four months. I was born in February 1987. My number one goal in life, besides my own personal goals, is to be able to witness a Mets championship. Just imagine how excited you would have been for Game 6 if you had been born four months earlier!! You might have tipped your bassinette over.

Elster88 May 26 2008 08:48 PM

Valadius wrote: I'll never forget when I heard that Mike Piazza had been traded to the Mets. I was playing in Little League when one of my teammates who I couldn't stand told me. I refused to believe him until I got home. Sure enough, Piazza was a Met. I remember thinking it was an awesome trade especially because I thought that nobody named Geoff Goetz could be any good. Sure enough, I was right. Many of you grew up with Tom Seaver as your Met hero. Well, I'm the lone poster of the generation that grew up with Mike Piazza as their Met hero. He was the Mets superstar, the sure-fire All-Star pick every year and sure-fire Hall-of-Famer. Hell, he was good enough that there was a Nintendo 64 game called Mike Piazza's Strike Zone. Out of all the players in baseball, they chose Mike Piazza. He was one of the best players in the game, and the player Mets fans of my generation had a poster of in their bedroom. He will be the second player to go into the Hall of Fame as a Met, and as such, his number should be retired. You guys had Seaver. His number's retired. Let my generation have Piazza's number on the wall. Ugh. I take it all back. Don't retire Piazza's number.

G-Fafif May 29 2008 03:33 PM

Weird "tribute" to Mike in current SI print edition, by Michael Bamberger. ]He could never be the Philly Italian Guy from central casting, and he despised it when fans or writers tried to goad him into that role. [...] Roger Clemens once beaned him with a fastball and on another memorable occasion threw a broken bat at him. Piazza did not forgive and forget. That part of the Sicilian thing he had down cold. I'm sure Mike would appreciate being linked to one aspect of the Italian stereotype three sentences after it was said he didn't care to be linked to another aspect of the Italian stereotype. I've never forgiven or forgotten Clemens for those incidents. I had no idea I was Sicilian.

Centerfield May 29 2008 03:42 PM

Elster88 wrote: Any Met fan who doesn't think Piazza should have his number retired AND be elected president this November has no soul. I so totally agree. ="G-Fafif"] I've never forgiven or forgotten Clemens for those incidents. I had no idea I was Sicilian. I so totally agree.