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Jerry Manuel

John Cougar Lunchbucket
May 25 2008 09:04 PM

I gotta be honest: Other than a vague memory of owning a few of his baseball cards in the 1970s, I didn't till just now know him from Charlie Manuel.

I browsed through the archives of a White Sox board and came up with this summation: Manuel was a "cerebral baseball man" who deserves another chance to manage but was kept on board with the Palehose long after he lost the clubhouse, notably Frank Thomas with whom he feuded. His nickname was "ghandi" noting a calm demeanor and approach but detractors say Manuel used that nice-man rep as a cover for mean-spiritedness. He had a power-laden, station-to-station team but failed to adapt to a NL style of play he was believed to have favored.

They apparently hold him accountable for their failure to defeat Lou Piniella and the Mariners in the 2000 playoffs, and for killing whatever chances the 2003 team had by starting Neal Cotts in a late-season game vs. the Yankees, which very much recalls the Julio Valera start that torpedoed Harrelson. Believes in mixing it up for the first half of the year and winning the second half.

A sampling of fan comments good and bad. Keep in mind many were made in 2005 when the Sox were WS champs with the guy who replaced him in charge:

]Manuel was acceptable by MLB standards.
The problem is "acceptable" does not win championships.


]At the risk of offending conventional wisdom, Jerry's mismanaging in the '00 ALDS consisted 90% of everyone in the lineup having their bat turn to linguini.


]Manuel's biggest flaw was that he was bad at handling the bullpen. Maybe that was what was meant by that "too cerebral" comment, that he out-thought himself a bunch of times when it came to pitching changes.


]Starting Cotts in NY was possibly the worst managerial move I've seen from the Sox in my lifetime


]Manuel had 80 different lineups by the 90th game every year


]I always thought that Manuel was a serviceable manager. He certainly wasn't great (and Ozzie is better) but he wasn't awful.

]
His constant line-up changes, handling of Garland, and the 2000 ALDS vs Seattle were all moments where his shortcomings were exposed, but Manuel could have learned from these things as well.



]Manager Ghandi was serviceable AT BEST. His lack of fire, his bizarre lineup combinations, his willingness to use his Triple A lineup on 'get away' days and of course the Neil Cotts / Yankee boner are his legacy.


]If you can't get anything out of Frank Thomas, you pretty much suck as a manager.


]I honestly don't think Manuel was as bad as some are making him to be. He was a little predictable but he knew his stuff as well as anyone.



]He did have winning seasons, but he also got us nowhere. He had an unbalanced team and prefered ego's and HRs to good solid defence and pitching.


]he was more laid back and let things play out, rather than trying to make something happen, but his clubs were the DH at a majority of the positions, station to station type clubs. He played everything by the book, I guess it was the safe way to go, but that was the criticism towards the end of his run and I think every one agreed that he had to go at the time he was fired, if not earlier.


]Manuel was WAY too laid back for my style. Even when he went out and argued it was usually fake and looked as if he was going through the motions making it look like he cared. He jumbled the lineup way too much and did not use his starting or bullpen pitching effectivly. I never liked him.


]Being comotose in the dugout is no way to run a baseball team. The Sox had the talent, they couldn't win squat under him.


]Leo Durocher's quote, "nice guys finish last", fit Jerry Manuel to a tee... well, it was more like 'nice guys finish second'.



]He overachieved with bad/inexperienced talent and he underachieved with superior/experienced talent.


[code:1]I think Manual was ok dealing with the media and with GM/Owner, but ((compared to Guillen)), he was terrible with his in game management, and terrible in dealing with the players (defending 'his guys'). [/code:1]

]Manuel tricked everyone inside and outside the clubhouse for his first 3-1/2 seasons using the Gandhi bit and his "battling" attitude. But the wheels came off the cart midway through 2001 and he never really got the clubhouse behind him again. He probably did more to derail Frank Thomas's march into the Hall of Fame than anybody else in the Sox organization -- including Frank himself
.

]Manuel is a very nice man, a tremendous human being but he blew as a field manager because he didn't have the passion needed to keep 25 tremendous egos and incredible athletes working towards the same goal.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
May 25 2008 09:06 PM

Here's an interesting, if too familiar, article. Advocating a particular guy as a manager is like arguing for a lottery winner. But interesting in that it shows he's not necessarily a "Willie Guy":

[url]http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=jackson/071116[/url]

AG/DC
May 25 2008 11:26 PM
Re: Jerry Manuel

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote:
They apparently hold him accountable for their failure to defeat Lou Piniella and the Mariners in the 2000 playoffs, and for killing whatever chances the 2003 team had by starting Neal Cotts in a late-season game vs. the Yankees, which very much recalls the Julio Valera start that torpedoed Harrelson.


I guess Willie's moment may someday be framed in the Humber start.

They like Guillen as an in-game strategist?

Frayed Knot
May 26 2008 05:50 AM

][Manual's] nickname was "ghandi" noting a calm demeanor and approach


He's also been known to quote Ghandi (ML King also) which is much of what leads to his 'nice guy/cerebral' image. Kind of like the baseball version of the Colts' Tony Dungy in that he isn't cut from the mold of the old fashioned macho-type coach.
On the other hand he did lead the AL in ejections one year.

What's funny is that you could take most of those quotes and substitute the name 'Willie' and think they came from Met boards this year: defending "his guys"; 'battling'; 'too laid back'; etc..
"Mismanaged the bullpen" is an almost universal complaint and is frequently code for, 'he brought in a guy I don't like'. Fans often want a manager to limit his choices to the same 2 or 3 top guys except during 12 run blowouts -- right up until the point they cite him for over-use if/when those guys falter.

I think I remember that 'Cotts' game. He was real young and had had some good pen outings so they tried him starting and he got bombed to the tune of about a 10 spot within 2 innings.

Losing to Lou's 114-win Seattle team in 2000 can't be the biggest sin in the history of managerial-com.

Does anyone get along with Frank Thomas?

SteveJRogers
May 26 2008 06:52 AM

Frayed Knot wrote:

Losing to Lou's 114-win Seattle team in 2000 can't be the biggest sin in the history of managerial-com.


The 116 wins was in 2001. In 2000 the Ms won 91 games, ended up winning the Wild Card due to the A's record against them in the regular season, and the White Sox won 95 games, which was the best record in the AL and tied for the second best record in the majors that year.

The Mariners ended up sweeping the Sox in the [url=http://www.baseball-reference.com/postseason/2000_ALDS2.shtml]ALDS[/url].

metirish
May 26 2008 09:16 AM

Howie of the Fan yesterday talked about the supposed similarity between Manuel and Randolph and that Manuel has being trying to dismiss those misgivings the past few days , letting people know that he has led the AL in getting tossed and has a very fiery side.

A Boy Named Seo
May 26 2008 11:07 AM

Nice homework, JCL. I was wondering the same about Manuel and my Sox friend sez this, while referencing that same pic in that ESPN article.



]You should expect patience, lots of patience. he preaches about patience, serenity and introspection. lots of bullshit about managing the man within the player, not just the player... He'll also bore you to death talking about how the teachings of Jesus, Ghandi, MLK, nelson Mandella, John lennon, etc. have shaped him as a person.
you also won't see too much of this:


and when you do it'll seem strange, forced and out of character.
All of the above seems to work to motivate young players to be good citizens and teammates (he won manager of the year + the AL central in 2000 with a bunch of kids on the White Sox roster). His message is typically lost on older, veteran guys (i.e. the Mets).
baseball-wise, don't expect much.
it would be wrong of me to not mention the sweet 1917 World Series throwback uni he's got on in the picture. best uniform ever


When you add in the fieriness, Manuel sounds like the sticky, men's room romance love child of Willie, Rick Peterson, and Lou Piniella.

AG/DC
May 26 2008 11:58 AM

I'm OK with managing the man inside the player and the player inside the man. It can be over-stated, but those aren't Strat-o-Matic cards out there every day.

A Boy Named Seo
May 26 2008 12:23 PM

I'm all for it, too. I also think tirades and turning over Gatorade bins is overrated, too. Don't think Willie Randolph kicking dirt on the blue is going to make Damion Easley or whoever more likely to get a hit next inning.

There does seem to be some real similarities between Jerry's overall placid demeanor and Willie's, and they've worked closely the last few years, so I kinda wonder what change a Jerry Manual-led team would really mean to the Mets at this point.

That said, I like pretty much everything I've read about him.

AG/DC
May 26 2008 12:29 PM

I could take all of Willie if I could just extract the bunting. It's not like that's everything I disagree with him on, it isn't, but letting this team get the most from its at-bats could change a lot of the outlook.

Farmer Ted
May 26 2008 02:54 PM

I'll give Jerry credit for showing some spark. When Delgado's homer was called foul in the Bronx, I thought it was an opportunity for Willie to show some balls and get into it with the umps. He backed down and it was Jerry who got tossed.

AG/DC
May 26 2008 06:22 PM

I don't know that its a question of balls.

I'd hope he'd run down to the pole and try to find the spot the ball hit and and a mark on the ball.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Jun 17 2008 08:08 AM

bumpity bump

smg58
Jun 17 2008 08:17 AM

SteveJRogers wrote:
The Mariners ended up sweeping the Sox in the [url=http://www.baseball-reference.com/postseason/2000_ALDS2.shtml]ALDS[/url].


And the fans seem to have blamed Manuel for Frank Thomas going 0 for 9, and the team batting .185 as a whole. That seems a bit harsh to me.

Then again, managers always get too much credit when things go well and too much blame when they don't. Willie's certainly no exception.

G-Fafif
Jun 17 2008 08:28 AM

SI [url=http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1019993/index.htm]profile[/url] of Manuel, by William Nack, from the high-flying Sox summer of 2000.

Key excerpts:

]"Jerry manages by the gut," says Ron Schueler, the White Sox general manager. "He does a lot of work on matchups, but then he says, 'I just got a gut feeling.' " Indeed, of all the things that define Manuel as a manager, that made him the American League's winningest skipper during the season's first four months, none describe the loft of his arc as clearly as his fearlessness in taking risks, his willingness to flout conventional wisdom.


]This is not the mind of a typical baseball manager at work here. Rather, Manuel suggests a kind of New Age Casey Stengel, that unending font of wisdom, whimsy and charm. A born-again Christian, Manuel neither chews nor drinks nor uses profanity, the old triple play of sins in his profession, but there is nothing rigid or self-righteous about him—he hides his piety like a steal sign—and humor is part and parcel of his grace. When told that one of his more intellectually challenged players had just had two wisdom teeth extracted, Manuel smiled and said, "Dang, they should have left those in." His humor, at times intended to lighten darker moods, can be charmingly self-deprecating. Like Stengel, he is not afraid to play the clown.

On April 28, while serving the first day of his eight-game suspension for his part in the bench-clearing brawl with the Detroit Tigers on April 22, Manuel watched the Sox beat the Tigers 3-2 on the TV in his room at the Ritz-Carlton in Dearborn, Mich. That evening, as the coaches and players stepped off the team bus at the hotel, a uniformed doorman, looking ramrod straight in his jacket and hat, held the front door open as acting manager Joe Nossek swept past.

"Welcome to the Ritz-Carlton," said the doorman.

"Yeah, yeah," grumped Nossek, not looking up.

"Hey, Joe!" yelled the doorman. Nossek turned back. It was Manuel, who had borrowed the uniform from the actual doorman.


]Manuel imported the philosophy, the intense, single-minded purposefulness, and the players have been implementing it. "It's not the swinging for the fences that has won us games," he says. "It's the guy taking the leadoff walk. It's the guy hustling into second base to beat a throw—or take a guy out. These little things have made the difference. This team has a strong bond. They like each other. They pull for each other. They want to win badly. They are growing up very quickly, right before our eyes."

bmfc1
Jun 17 2008 09:43 AM

Jerry read Martin Luther King's works:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/23/sports/baseball/23mets.html?scp=2&sq=willie+randolph+obama&st=nyt

Benjamin Grimm
Jun 17 2008 09:45 AM

Not that it matters at all, but is Jerry black or Hispanic?

Is the the second African-American manager in New York?

(My guess is: Yes.)

AG/DC
Jun 17 2008 09:48 AM

Wikipedia quotes his 2003 Topps baseball card: "Manuel and Ken Williams form the first African-American GM/manager tandem in MLB history."

It also mentions, for UMDB purposes, that he's the father-in-law of RonDL White.

Vince Coleman Firecracker
Jun 17 2008 09:49 AM

Benjamin Grimm wrote:
Not that it matters at all, but is Jerry black or Hispanic?

He's in the California Black Sports Hall of Fame, if that helps.

TheOldMole
Jun 17 2008 05:33 PM

Well, at least he has Bobby V's politics.

]Standing a few feet away from his soon-to-be office at Shea Stadium, Jerry Manuel was talking excitedly Saturday evening about a package he received in the mail. A copy of “One Man’s America: The Pleasures and Provocations of Our Singular Nation,” the latest book by columnist and author George F. Will, had just arrived, and he was eager to start reading.

Nymr83
Jun 17 2008 06:07 PM

I hope he has Bobby V's managing skills.

Does anyone know if he is someone who goes out and argues with umpires much? or is he another Willie in that respect?

bmfc1
Jun 17 2008 08:59 PM

Jerry is only 54 but looks older because of the white in his beard. He needs the hair dye that Keith plugs.

attgig
Jun 17 2008 11:50 PM

so when do the fire Jerry chants start at shea?

TheOldMole
Jun 18 2008 09:22 PM

I'm thinking the Mets should hire Giuseppe Franco, because he won't put his name on a product unless he knows it really works.

duan
Jun 19 2008 02:52 AM
"Play Hard"

[url]http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080618&content_id=2955988&vkey=news_nym&fext=.jsp&c_id=nym&partnerId=rss_nym[/url]

is his main rule
I'm sure that Willie didn't say to people to "Play Soft". I will say this and I said it when he first came out with in in 06, there's nothing worse then someone with a silly moustache having rules about facial hair/hair cuts.