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Jerry Koosman, 'Big, Strong German'

G-Fafif
Jun 15 2008 11:33 AM

Steve Serby does [url=http://www.nypost.com/seven/06152008/sports/mets/serbys_sunday_qa_with____115569.htm?page=0]Q&A[/url] with Tom Seaver. Seaver sounds like Seaver, which is always a bit more off-center than I'm prepared for.

]Q: Were you heartened by angry Mets fan reaction to your June 15, 1977 blockbuster trade to the Reds?
A: I don't know, that's so long ago in a sense. All I remember I was just so cotton pickin' glad to get away from (then-Daily News columnist) Dick Young and (Mets chairman) M. Donald Grant.

Q: Young?
A: Not a nice man.

Q: Why?
A: Attacking my wife (Nancy, in print) and saying things that weren't true.

Q: Grant?
A: Had a real plantation mentality. Asked me: "Who do you think you are joining the Greenwich Country Club?"

Q: Tell me what you see when Cleon Jones catches the last out of the 1969 World Series.
A: A man down on his knees and a dream come true for the child that lives in all of us. It happens to other athletes, other individuals. And all of a sudden, it's your world championship. One of my favorite photographs is after all that celebration, Gary Gentry and I are back on the mound - it's littered with grass and there's nobody in the stadium - and we went back on the mound (in uniform), and we (each) have a cigar in our hand. . . . 'Cause that's where it all started.

Q: Sum up the personality of the '69 Mets.
A: Oxymoron - educated naivete.

Q: Word associations . . . Jerry Grote?
A: A pitcher's dream behind the plate.

Q: Bud Harrelson?
A: Same thing at shortstop.

Q: Did you help pull Buddy off Pete Rose during their '73 playoff brawl?

A: No. I was scratching the back of my head. . . . I'm on the bench, Pete's up, and I know Koozie (Jerry Koosman) is gonna hit him, and I know it's gonna be a fight, right? Here we go boys, strap 'em on, let's go. Boom, he hits him. Pete peels off and goes to first base. Well, I said a couple of uncomplimentary words - under my breath - about Pete. And I go to the clubhouse to get a cup of coffee. I open the clubhouse door and there's Murph (Bob Murphy) or Lindsay (Nelson) on the radio going, "And a fight breaks out at second base."
I will ask you the question: Who got hurt more than anybody in the fight, in that scene? Me. Have you ever walked from the clubhouse to the dugout? So I open the door, I hear this on the radio, I run back, we have those concrete steps right, going down? Guess who slipped on the concrete steps going down trying to get to the fight (chuckles)? And if you watch this closely, all this commotion's going on, then all of a sudden here comes this one player in this blue coat (chuckles) with my number covered up trying to get to the fight.

Q: Gil Hodges?
A: At that point in time in my career, the one perfect person for me.

Q: Because?
A: Discipline, focus, concentration . . . the pro's pro, and (he) did not accept anything less than that.

Q: The young Nolan Ryan?
A: Frustrated me to death.

Q: Why?
A: As much talent as anybody's ever had throwing a baseball . . . he had some issues with somebody imposing on his family, I'll leave it at that. He had a very attractive wife (Ruth), and I think that bothered him . . . he couldn't deal with that in New York. I never got the full story from Nolan, but I think that was all part of it.

Q: A fan who was badgering Ruth?
A: I don't know if it was badgering or what, it was just somebody was in a place they shouldn't have been. I think that bothered him, that the safety of his wife potentially was compromised. We were all young . . . you hear all these horror stories. I think that rightfully bothered him.

Q: Koosman?
A: Big, strong German, and if hadn't gotten hurt, he'd have been in the Hall of Fame.

Q: When the fading Willie Mays became your teammate?
A: You're a kid in Fresno (Calif.), and you grow up and you go to San Francisco Giant games with your father who's in the raisin business, right? And all of a sudden Willie Mays is coming to me with (questions about the opposing) lineup . . . he's going, "Where do you want me to play him? Where do you want me to play him?" What's wrong with this picture?

Q: Describe your mound temperament.
A: Total control and disciplined.

Q: Have you ever watched tapes of Jimmy Qualls spoiling your 1969 perfect game in the ninth inning?
A: No I have not, no. I don't have to go back, I can see it (chuckles).

Q: Tell me what you see.
A: Warming up in the bullpen I knew that it was just (snaps fingers) boom, boom, boom. And the only guy I didn't know in the lineup was Jimmy Qualls and he hit the ball hard the first time. It was an out, but I didn't see an out. As a hitter, you can see an out when they walk up there . . . you can see outs - I can get you out here, I can get you out there, and get you out there and get you out there, whatever. I never saw an out with him.

Q: How deflating was that?
A: Pitch a one-hit shutout.

Q: Your 19-strikeout game against the Padres?
A: Conditions were perfect . . . I was throwing nothing but strikes, all on the black and right on the knees. Boom, boom, boom.

Q: Does it get any better than that?
A: It gets a helluva lot better - and you don't realize this 'til later, 'til you're down the road, and you beat somebody 4-3 . . . then you had to work your rear end off, both physically and mentally. When you walk away, you go, "Now that was a piece of art right there." It's not called throwing, it's called pitching. That's the fun.

Q: Did the young Roger Clemens pick your brain with the Red Sox in 1986?
A: A little bit.

Q: Are you troubled by Clemens' steroid controversy?
A: For the whole game. Is it true, is it not true, how much of it is true, etc.? Did it go on, did it not go on? Why did those in charge let it go on? Did it bring fans back into the game after there was a strike. And the home runs . . . was it monetarily driven? I don't know.

Q: You were at the far end of the visiting dugout when Mookie's grounder got by Buckner.
A: I was a bit in disbelief that Mac (Red Sox manager John McNamara) didn't take Buckner out. But he was such a nice man, warm-hearted man, I think he wanted to let Buck stay in the game.

Q: The young Doc Gooden?
A: You go, "Now there's Cooperstown right there."

Q: Kiner's Korner?
A: Ralph has been a jewel, as my mother would say, a jewel for years and years and years. The game's supposed to be fun for the fan, and that's what he did, he made it fun for them.

Q: Were you ever tempted to borrow one of Lindsay Nelson's sport jackets?
A: (Smiles) No, no . . . I had enough bad ones myself.

Q: Bob Murphy?
A: Murph was like this ball of energy.

Q: Boyhood idols?
A: Robin Roberts; Henry Aaron.

Q: Was Aaron the toughest hitter you ever faced?
A: No, (Willie) McCovey . . . and probably (Willie) Stargell. My true heroes when I was coming out of USC, Aaron was one, (Sandy) Koufax was the other. I was a year-and-a-half removed from USC playing for the Mets after a year in Jacksonville, and I go to the (1967) All-Star Game and my locker's here, and who do you think was right there? Henry Aaron. Scared to death.

Q: Shea's last season?
A: I keep saying it - let me push the plunger, you know? It's time to turn the page. There are great memories there (but) I will not be sad to see the stadium go at all. It's time to . . . light the fuse.

Q: Reggie Jackson once said of you: "Blind people come to the park just to hear him pitch."
A: Reggie is very eloquent. I asked him, "Reggie, how many blind people do you know for crying out loud go to baseball games?"

Q: What would they have heard?
A: (Chuckles) The subtle wafting of wind . . . in the middle of the infield.

Q: Favorite movie?
A: "To Kill A Mockingbird."

Q: Favorite actor?
A: Gregory Peck.

Q: Favorite meal?
A: Lamb chops with asparagus and some other vegetable.

Q: What red wine would you pick to go with it?
A: GTS, which stands for George Thomas Seaver (smiles). Diamond Mountain, California cabernet.

Q: Your new venture?
A: At the north end of Napa Valley, I have three acres of cabernet and I'm just finishing going through the first distribution of our '05 vintage. I employ two people, a vineyard manager and a winemaker, and I am the smallest client either one of them has. I enjoy the vineyard aspect of it, I enjoy the farming aspect of it . . . one of the things you learn, if you're lucky enough in your professional career to win a world championship - it is the journey, not the destination. What I'm doing now is fascinating.

Q: And when can I get your GTS?
A: (Smiles) As soon as I get the check.

MFS62
Jun 15 2008 11:55 AM

Regarding the thread title (thanks for the post, by the way).

I remember reading an interview with Koosman when he joined the Mets.
This is as best as I can recall it.
One reporter (forget which, there were more newspapers those days) noticed an unusual name beginning with "K" and asked Koosman if he was Jewish.
Koosman asked the reporter why he asked.
The reporter told him that if he were Jewish, he would make a lot of money playing in New York.
And Koosman replied with a wink "Then I guess you could write that I'm Jewish".

Later

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Jun 16 2008 08:08 AM

Those remarks on Ryan were interesting. What exactly is he saying?

Ruth Ryan is hot, we get that. Was she doing it with Bobby Pfeil or something?

metirish
Jun 16 2008 08:16 AM

Never heard that about Ryan and his missus before , had she a stalker?


I'm sure Ryan will thank Seaver for bringing that up.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Jun 16 2008 08:18 AM

Oh great, now I have to read this:



]" A Thrilling Tale of Baseball and Fame,
A Wild and Exciting Roller-Coaster Ride of
Anguish and Elation, Misery and Joy,
Despair and Hope ..
And Most of All, Love "


Ruth Ryan's life has been a poignant love story, a joyous celebration, an inspiring example of example of enduring strength and steadfast devotion despite incredible difficulties and unexpected wealth as she has lived in the harsh spotlight and the forgotten shadows surrounding her husband, baseball legend, Nolan Ryan. "

" For nearly thirty years, her world, her family, have been focused on baseball - and on a tall, handsome pitcher whose career began on a dusty Little League field in Alvin, Texas, and ended decades later achieving more no-hitters, throwing more strikeouts, and setting more records than any other pitcher in the history of the sport. "

" She struggled to create homes in unfamiliar New York neighborhoods, pleasant California suburbs and remote Texas ranches.

She has been mistreated by fans and entertained by presidents.

She has watched as her husband played his heart out before apathetic crowds in near-empty stadiums - and she has ridden beside him in wildly appreciative Nolan Ryan parades.
She knows the joy of seeing a baseball career extended beyond all expectations - and the anguish of seeing a little son's life almost cut short.

Through it all, no matter where she is, not matter what her circumstances, Ruth Ryan's heart is always ... Covering Home. "

Contents includes:

" Foreword by Nolan Ryan
Acknowledgements
Prologue: The Last Pitch
Part One
Childhood Sweethearts

1. Little League
2. Home Team
3. Young Love
Part Two
Married to Baseball

4. A Bad Year - and the Wedding
5. Stranded on First
6. New York Rookies
7. Big Wins, Hard Losses

Part Three
The Angels

8. A New Beginning
9. Soaring with the Angels
10. Expansion
11. Turnaround Years
12. Disabled
Part Four
The Astros

13. Heading for Home
14. Changeup
Part Five
Miracle Man

15. Leaving Houston, Bound for Glory
16. Dallas
17. Field of Dreams
18. Bush League
19. The Fame
20. The Fans
21. The Farewell
22. The Fight
Part Six
Out to Pasture

23. The Family
24. Still (Fitness) Crazy after All These Years
25. The Next Season "

Benjamin Grimm
Jun 16 2008 08:28 AM

]She has been mistreated by fans and entertained by presidents.


It would be more interesting if it was the other way around.

Although, I hear that the chapter that describes the puppet show that Richard Nixon put on for her is especially fascinating.

AG/DC
Jun 16 2008 08:28 AM

Ruth Ryan was not only hot, but she was way ahead of her time by wearing baby doll pigtails in public.

There's a lot of meat in there.

I'd like hear more about what made Grote so good behind the plate. He worked with three guys he praised to the hills in Grote, Bench, and Carlton Fisk. I'd like to hear what they brought that, say, Alex Treviņo didn't. He had his first (only) crap year when Alex Treviņo took over as number one from Joe Nolan and Bench.

]Q: Grant?
A: Had a real plantation mentality. Asked me: "Who do you think you are joining the Greenwich Country Club?"

That's a strong metaphor.

]Well, I said a couple of uncomplimentary words - under my breath - about Pete. And I go to the clubhouse to get a cup of coffee. I open the clubhouse door and there's Murph (Bob Murphy) or Lindsay (Nelson) on the radio going, "And a fight breaks out at second base."

All that tension in the air and you go for coffee?

]We were all young . . . you hear all these horror stories. I think that rightfully bothered him.

Is he implying that this interfered with Ryan's performance through most of his Met career? (I think he is, though he'd probably dial that back on followup.) Also, on one hand he says this frustrated him "to death," and, on the other, he says Ryan was "rightfully bothered." Not a direct contradiction, but something I'd want clarified.

]Big, strong German, and if hadn't gotten hurt, he'd have been in the Hall of Fame.

The more I think about it, the more I think that Mets assembling a real offense in the seventies might have put Koosman in the Hall of Fame.

]It gets a helluva lot better - and you don't realize this 'til later, 'til you're down the road, and you beat somebody 4-3 . . . then you had to work your rear end off, both physically and mentally. When you walk away, you go, "Now that was a piece of art right there." It's not called throwing, it's called pitching. That's the fun.

This is cool.

]A: For the whole game. Is it true, is it not true, how much of it is true, etc.? Did it go on, did it not go on? Why did those in charge let it go on? Did it bring fans back into the game after there was a strike. And the home runs . . . was it monetarily driven? I don't know.

This isn't cool.


]I was a year-and-a-half removed from USC playing for the Mets after a year in Jacksonville, and I go to the (1967) All-Star Game and my locker's here, and who do you think was right there? Henry Aaron. Scared to death.

I may have this wrong, but he once told a story of Aaron (I think) coming into the clubhouse, mistaking him for a clubhouse assistant, and telling Seaver to get him a Coke, and responding "Get your own fucking Coke; I'm on the team." Was that Aaron? Because that's not really a "scared to death" response."

]I keep saying it - let me push the plunger, you know? It's time to turn the page. There are great memories there (but) I will not be sad to see the stadium go at all. It's time to . . . light the fuse.

Bollux. It won't be blown up anyway, but --- now that you're allowed in the Country Club --- it's easy to cheer on the establishment of a Country Club stadium.

]Q: Favorite actor?
A: Gregory Peck.

Of course. A pro's pro.

G-Fafif
Jun 16 2008 08:32 AM

Last week, Nolan was a guest with Joe Benigno and Evan Roberts on the FAN, promoting the interactive Minor League FunFest (like All-Star FanFest). Joe asked about his problems with New York. Nolan said that wasn't what held him back, it was his military obligations costing him regular work.

But the "mistreated" copy for Ruth's book along with Tom's allusions...hmmm...

AG/DC
Jun 16 2008 08:38 AM

Amazon says "80 Used & new from $0.01."

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Jun 16 2008 08:48 AM

Nobody ever mentions how brutal the second half of 1971 was for Ryan:

These are his stats from July on (he was 8-4, 2.05 thru the end of June)

2-10, 6.94, 44-62 K-BB in 59.2 innings -- 2.06 WHiP

By the way, the Mets fell from 2nd place, 2 games out to 3rd place, 14 games back in that period.

I dunno. A player in his 4th year of full-time work, with those numbers, are guys who get traded ... or released. Could you imagine that player with the Mets today?

G-Fafif
Jun 16 2008 08:48 AM

]I may have this wrong, but he once told a story of Aaron (I think) coming into the clubhouse, mistaking him for a clubhouse assistant, and telling Seaver to get him a Coke, and responding "Get your own fucking Coke; I'm on the team." Was that Aaron? Because that's not really a "scared to death" response."


That was Lou Brock. Aaron had, at another time in his rookie year, left him a copy of one of his many autobiographies.

The disdain for Grant is remarkably consistent for 31 years. Seaver said many of the same things in a postmortem Sport magazine ran in '77. Either Seaver is a world-class grudgeholder or Grant really was as bad as we've all assumed he was.

Or both.

G-Fafif
Jun 16 2008 08:50 AM

="John Cougar Lunchbucket"]Nobody ever mentions how brutal the second half of 1971 was for Ryan:

These are his stats from July on (he was 8-4, 2.05 thru the end of June)

2-10, 6.94, 44-62 K-BB in 59.2 innings -- 2.06 WHiP

By the way, the Mets fell from 2nd place, 2 games out to 3rd place, 14 games back in that period.

I dunno. A player in his 4th year of full-time work, with those numbers, are guys who get traded ... or released. Could you imagine that player with the Mets today?


Don't take my judgment for golden because it was the judgment of a not-quite nine-year-old hung up on stats and skewed by the presence of a 20-10, 289 Ks, 1.76 ERA future Hall of Famer on the same staff, but I swear, when it was announced Nolan Ryan, I was fine with it. "This guy walks too many people and he doesn't win enough" was my nuanced take.

To my credit, I asked, in the same breath, "Jim Fregosi? To play third? But he's a shortstop...and kind of old, isn't he?"

Vince Coleman Firecracker
Jun 16 2008 08:54 AM
Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jun 16 2008 09:04 AM

Cool interview. Found [url=http://www.nydailynews.com/features/bronxisburning/yankees/mets/]this article[/url] while bumping around the internets.

Also, and this has nothing to do with anything, but I found a [url=http://cgi.ebay.com/AUTHENTIC-METS-TOM-SEAVER-1966-THROWBACK-JERSEY-SZ56-2X_W0QQitemZ320255613443QQcmdZViewItem]pretty cool jersey[/url] on ebay for cheap, cheap, cheap; but it's the wrong size for me.

AG/DC
Jun 16 2008 08:56 AM

Thanks for clearing that up.

Poor Donald, The Times couldn't even find anybody besides his son to say anything nice about him when he died.

Check out his choice of favorite songs in light of Seaver's assessment in the interview.

M. Donald Grant, 94, Dies; Executive Angered Mets Fans
Published: November 30, 1998


M. Donald Grant, a winning amateur competitor in hockey, squash and golf who became the controversial chairman of the Mets and enjoyed mixed success, died at his home in Hobe Sound, Fla., on Saturday. He was 94.

As the Mets' chairman, Mr. Grant made the key move that led to the team's surprising World Series championship in 1969, hiring Gil Hodges as manager in 1968. But Mr. Grant became best known for trading pitcher Tom Seaver, the Mets' ''franchise,'' in 1977, even though the dispute that led to the trade was triggered by Seaver's desire to renegotiate his contract.

''I cannot even go into my own seat in my own stadium,'' Mr. Grant said of Shea Stadium after the trade. ''I have become lower than the lowliest bum on the street.''

The fans did not care why Seaver, an eventual Hall of Famer, was sent to Cincinnati, just that he was. They did not care that he had a three-year contract that he wanted to renegotiate in the face of escalating salaries with the advent of free agency.

''It didn't sit well with my father that Seaver had signed a contract and now wanted to renegotiate it,'' Michael Grant Jr. said. ''He really dug his heels in about that. He was a word-is-your-bond kind of guy.''

Just before he was traded, Seaver switched tactics and asked Lorinda de Roulet, daughter of the late Joan Payson, the Mets' original owner, for a contract extension, and she agreed to it.

However, a newspaper column suggesting that Seaver's wife, Nancy, was jealous of the wife of a former teammate, Nolan Ryan, infuriated Seaver. Believing that Mr. Grant was responsible for the item, Seaver said he wanted to be traded.

The Mets, who also had gone to the World Series in 1973 but lost, finished in last place in the 1977 season and the next as dwindling crowds watched them play. After the 1978 season, the Mets' board of directors ousted Mr. Grant from his position, which he had held since the team's creation in 1962.

Mr. Grant became involved with the Mets through his long-term association with Mrs. Payson, whom he met in the early 1940's at a private club in Florida.

Along with other wealthy people, they were sitting around a table playing a game of ''what would you do if you had all the money in the world?'' When Mr. Grant's turn came, he said he would buy a baseball team, the New York Giants.

''You can't do that,'' said Mrs. Payson, whose turn was next. ''That's what I want to do.''

Mr. Grant, who owned five shares in the Giants, subsequently bought shares for Mrs. Payson, accumulating a 10 percent interest for her, and he became a member of the team's board of directors. As such, he was the only one to vote against the Giants' move to San Francisco in 1958.

After the Giants left, he became active in the effort to create a new baseball league, the Continental League, and that move led to the National League expansion team known as the Mets.

Michael Donald Grant was born in Montreal, the son of a professional hockey player, Mike Grant, who is a member of the Hockey Hall of Fame. The younger Grant, who left school when he was 15 years old, was a good amateur player himself but was discouraged from playing professionally by his mother, who felt there was not any money in it.

Instead, persuaded by a cousin, he left his job at a bank in Montreal in 1924, going to New York and taking a job as a night clerk at the Commodore. He also refereed hockey games to earn extra money.

''Since I came to New York,'' Mr. Grant once said, ''there haven't been two consecutive years when I haven't worked at two jobs.''

Indeed, even as chairman of the Mets' board, he was also the managing partner at the Wall Street firm of Fahnestock and Company.

Mr. Grant had an image that some observers referred to as stuffed shirt. The image also led to a change in his name. He went by the name Donald rather than Michael and was known to his friends as Don or Donnie. But a newspaper columnist, trying to be derogatory, called him M. Donald, and the name stuck.

''He hated the name,'' Michael Jr. said. Yet his name appeared that way in the Mets' official publications. ''He was a formal kind of guy,'' his son said, ''but he wasn't an aristocrat or a blue blood. It annoyed him that he was given the image of a stuffed shirt.''

Mr. Grant was not a stuffed shirt to Mrs. Payson, who called him Donnie. The Mets' owner loved to hear and sing old songs, and she periodically asked Mr. Grant to sing one of his specialties, ''Jimmy Cracked Corn,'' which he did with all its many verses.

Mrs. Payson died in 1975, just before free agency was created in baseball's 1976 labor agreement. Mr. Grant shunned free agents because of the cost, maintaining that his style of conducting baseball business would put the Mets ahead of teams that spent lavishly to lure players from other teams.

He adopted that stance at the same time that the Yankees aggressively sought top free agents. While the Yankees won the World Series in 1977 and 1978, the Mets finished in last place with a total of 130 victories compared with 200 for the Yankees.

Asked in February 1978 when the Mets would become contenders, Mr. Grant said, ''We are contenders right now.''

But they were not and would not be until after he was voted out as chairman and after the de Roulet family sold the team, one year later.

Mr. Grant is survived by his wife, Alice; two sons, Michael Jr. and Tim; a daughter, Patsy Warner, and nine grandchildren.

Benjamin Grimm
Jun 16 2008 08:59 AM

From what I remember of the Ryan trade, it was well received in the press at the time it was made. I hadn't heard of Fregosi, although I did have his 1971 baseball card. I also remember reading on the flip side of Gil Hodges' posthumous 1972 card that with Fregosi, the Mets would be "contenders all the way." (Or something to that effect.)

G-Fafif
Jun 16 2008 09:03 AM

That obit was taped to the cash register at a midtown hotel barber shop nine years ago. I had to ask the barber if Mr. Grant was a customer. Sure was, he said -- and what a nice man.

No man is a hero to his valet, but one villain wasn't Satan to his barber. Take from that what you will.

Small irony, perhaps, on the Greenwich country club remark: Mets last week had their big, high-priced charity event in the very same upscale town where Grant would have blackballed Seaver. It wasn't at a country club, but given the stature and salaries of today's ballplayers, I imagine none of them (even those Grant probably would have restricted from membership) would have a problem joining one if the mood struck.

batmagadanleadoff
Jun 16 2008 09:12 AM

="G-Fafif"]It wasn't at a country club, but given the stature and salaries of today's ballplayers, I imagine none of them (even those Grant probably would have restricted from membership) would have a problem joining one if the mood struck.


Join? Some of those Mets could probably buy the Country Club.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Jun 16 2008 09:21 AM

If Grant wasn't an actual blueblood his attitudes were. He behaved until the end that owners were "sportsmen" who ran the team with a spirit of generosity and fairness for the people, and that the "help" had some nerve to interfere with that.

Frayed Knot
Jun 16 2008 10:48 AM

]Don't take my judgment for golden because it was the judgment of a not-quite nine-year-old hung up on stats and skewed by the presence of a 20-10, 289 Ks, 1.76 ERA future Hall of Famer on the same staff, but I swear, when it was announced Nolan Ryan, I was fine with it. "This guy walks too many people and he doesn't win enough" was my nuanced take.


That was about my reaction too. For years I didn't regret getting rid of Ryan - only the return we got for him.

Even though much of his Angels years I thought of him as a decent (though hardly great) and wildly-inconsistent pitcher whose rep was better than the product on account of the High-K numbers, those occasionally spectacular outings, plus the fact that the networks had just discovered radar guns.
And later when he signed with Houston my reaction was that HE was the guy who just became MLB's first $1million dollar/year player?!?

What he became, of course, was a much better pitcher in his 30s than he ever was in his twenties, and the longevity he was able to put together is something no one would have bet on.

Benjamin Grimm
Jun 16 2008 11:09 AM

Frayed Knot wrote:
...the longevity he was able to put together is something no one would have bet on.


Steroids. As I said in another thread, Ryan is very lucky that the hell that has rained down on Clemens hasn't hit him as well.

metsguyinmichigan
Jun 16 2008 12:10 PM
Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jun 16 2008 01:00 PM

I always give more rancor to Young than Grant, and I think Seaver hit the nail on the head.

Grand was the product of his time -- and his time had passed. Had he handed over the reigns five years sooner we'd probably be praising him today. Steinbrenner, for all his many faults, understood how things were changing. Grant didn't.

Young, however, was a vindictive SOB who clearly was on the attack.

AG/DC
Jun 16 2008 12:14 PM

Yeah, but it's pretty established that he was sicced on the attack by Grant himself, and had a questionable relationship with Grant that suggested a little tit-for-tat going on.